State tax cut plan hailed, assailed
At issue: Would proposal 'destroy' government?
By Lynn Bartels, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published January 27, 2009 at 12:05 a.m.
The governor and many lawmakers say they're cutting state government to the bone.
Former lobbyist Freda Poundstone says there's still way too much fat.
Both sides are making their pitches to Colorado voters this week in an oddly timed clash of government philosophies.
Poundstone on Monday submitted a proposed ballot measure that would drastically cut taxes and fees paid by Coloradans on everything from car registrations to telephone bills.
It bears a resemblance to a measure that former Rep. Douglas Bruce, of Colorado Springs, failed to get through the legislature last year.
Critics howled over the ballot proposal.
"This would destroy government as we know it," said Sen. Chris Romer, D-Denver.
"And it comes at a time when citizens are asking government to provide more solutions, more jobs, more health care," Romer said.
All levels of government would feel the impact if the ballot measure passed.
It calls for drastically reducing the "sales ownership" tax when Coloradans buy cars - money that now goes to counties. It also eliminates a telecommunications fee that the state uses to help rural and mountainous areas get affordable phone service.
"This isn't going to destroy government," Poundstone said. "Government is not easy to destroy - it seems to be growing when nothing else is. I think the reduction of some taxes would be helpful."
But Colorado already is dealing with a revenue shortfall that could hit $1 billion next fiscal year.
Democratic Gov. Bill Ritter's administration today will present his proposed budget cuts for next fiscal year, and lawmakers who have been given a briefing have used words such as terrible, ugly and horrible.
"None of these are good decisions," Rep. Mark Ferrandino, D-Denver, said of the proposed cuts.
"We're making a decision about what is the least worst," Ferrandino said.
Poundstone's co-proponent on the ballot measure is Jeff Gross of Kersey, who declined to comment.
Poundstone said she knows little about Gross, who called to ask her about her past successes in getting ballot measures passed. She said she liked Gross's idea and signed on with him.
Filing the proposal is the first step in a lengthy process to get an item on the ballot.
Romer and House Speaker Terrance Carroll, D-Denver, ripped the proposal.
"This is the same Republican playbook that lost them the presidency, the Colorado legislature and the governorship," Romer said.
"As a Democrat, if the Republican Party wants to run the wishbone offense, I'm all in."
Carroll shook his head when he read the ballot language.
"I am stunned by this," he said. "Folks like this won't be satisfied until government slips into the throes of anarchy."
bartels@RockyMountainNews.com or 303-954-5327; Staff writer Ed Sealover contributed to this report.
Proposed tax-limiting amendment Starting in 2011
VEHICLES
* Registration, license, title would total $10 yearly per vehicle.
* Ownership taxes would decrease in "four equal yearly steps" to $2 for new vehicles and $1 for all others.
* All other state and local government charges - except fines, tolls, parking, seizure, inspection and new plate charges - would cease.
INCOME TAXES
* 2011 income taxes would be 4.5 percent, dropping 0.1 percent yearly until the rate is 3.5 percent, in each of the first 10 years that income tax revenue net growth exceeds 6 percent.
* Income tax credits would cease.
* Alternative minimum tax would cease.
TELECOMMUNICATIONS
* Except for 911 fees, state/local taxes and fees would be eliminated on charges for telephone, pager, cable, TV, Internet, computer and satellite.
ABOUT FREDA POUNDSTONE
Former Greenwood Village mayor Freda Poundstone, co-author of a proposal to limit state fees and taxes, is best known for an amendment to the Colorado Constitution that bears her name.
Passed by voters in 1974, the Poundstone Amendment precluded Denver from annexing land in other counties unless a majority of the residents in that county approved. Denver was under court-ordered busing at the time. And when Denver began annexing areas to the southeast near the Tech Center, it caused an uproar because suburbanites didn't want their children being bused.
It was because of the Poundstone Amendment that Denver had to go to voters in Adams County to ask for approval of the annexation that became Denver International Airport.
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January 27, 2009
1:42 a.m.
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ghoax writes:
Right ON Freda! This beast is out of control and continues its feeding frenzy, it's time for a diet.
It was that "same old Republican" philosophy that got us out of the Carter mess, that created the foundation for the economic expansion in the 90's, that forestalled todays problems until spend thrift democrats stole back Congress.
It is the failed democrat polices, environmental fascism, the attack on energy and economic growth, the creation of the entitled class, and the promotion of lies about the economy to get the messiah elected that created this mess.
unfortunately, you can't use the same brain that caused the problem to solve the problem...point, more failed democrat policies are not going to provide a solution.
January 27, 2009
4:08 a.m.
Suggest removal
LOUIE writes:
Granted the state must downsize it's spending, and I do love a tax cut, yet we must allow the government the means to carry out their responsibility. Responsible tax cuts, organizational accountability for each state department and funding need to be examined, and money saved where possible. But at the same time we need to also balance the needs of the government so as to maintain a solid infrastructure. politicians need to quit the bait and switch with public funding as well. If you tell the voter powerball is for education, then thats exactly where it should go. If the state is crying foul over tobacco related illnesses, as they did it court whem seeking the billions of dollars from the tobacco companies, maybe all the money collected off tobacco could start paying for healthcare. Education, law enforcement, natural resource management, many things in our infrastucture are extremely important. I like good sound bites, politician's have mastered them well. They only sing the tunes they know we love. However, responsible government does't cut itself so thin as to destroy it's infrastructure. They need to make each department in the state infrastructure able to generate the revenue necessary to sustain itself. Now, how about these bailouts and stimulus packages the politician's are loading up with pork, while their nation is on it's knees? Our nation is hurting, and the politician is dining in some fine car on the people's train of misery. Our money, their addiction; government has a Hell of a price. That's a pretty raw deal to ask the people to ransom the future of their generations, to bailout the country, stimulate the economy, and then load up the package with personal pork. Politician's remind me of the story of "Animal Farm".
January 27, 2009
4:53 a.m.
Suggest removal
CP writes:
"And it comes at a time when citizens are asking government to provide more solutions, more jobs, more health care," Romer said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Speak for yourself! I don't want government to do a darn thing except but out of the stupid bail outs that are ruining how companies compete.
Ford didn't take the bail out money and now they can't compete with Chevy's no-interest loans. Companies with incompetent management deserve to fail instead of being rewarded.
January 27, 2009
5:25 a.m.
Suggest removal
LOUIE writes:
CP, going through that arguement now, my brother says GM is the better stock deal; I thought Ford under 2 a share. GM will be back in 2 months to get more cash. Obama made some promises to Detroit, we'll see. Surprised Granholm has found a place next to this "comeback kid" everybody thinks Mr, Obama is. This isn't a slur on Mr. Obama, just that capitolism is about cycles. Little any one man or party can do about the cycles, other than offer the system some monetary salve to ease the burn. Sadly, the salve this time is but wood on the fire. Politicians have to stop throwing money at the problem, and repair the problem. You don't pour fresh water into a cistern riddled with holes. You don't pour in money, unless you have made repair to the infrastructure to be able to not only stem losses, but produce and multiply. There is much work to be done before pouring in the people's money. Otherwise, your feeding a bottomless pit that will never retain value.
January 27, 2009
5:57 a.m.
Suggest removal
youngman writes:
"And it comes at a time when citizens are asking government to provide more solutions, more jobs, more health care," Romer said.
What an idiotic statement..this is how Democrats think..they truly think they are "Gods"..."Saviors"....when times are tough the Government has to cut also..they need to cut 25% of thier staffs and their costs....they won't...this is the big problem...Do the Democrats bankrupt the State.....Do the Democrats raise taxes to cover thier Pension shortfalls....Do the Democrats keep building new projects so they can have a legacy...Do the Democrats keep expanding programs for EVERYBODY just to get elected...NEED..you always here that word..right behind CRISIS...boy oh boy that is when you want to run to the hills...cause they are going to spend...its all they know..
January 27, 2009
6:32 a.m.
Suggest removal
Ike writes:
We are still living under the onerous provisions of the poorly thought out and ill-concieved Poundstone Amendment that has given us Saudi Aurora and the out of control suburban sprawl that is the metro area. I often wonder what Denver could be like with truly efficient central planning and equitable zoning laws. All for tax cuts too, but make them sensible ones, please! This one looks like a turkey at first glance and will in all likelyhood be a tax increase.
Will read with interest the how the Alternative Minimum Tax increase mentioned above will be good for Colorado and its residents. Do some research on the US Tax Code on the victims of the Federal AMT and then pass your judgement on whether Queen Freda has a good idea or not. You could be the next victim of the oppressive AMT with zero recourse other than paying more tax if this passes. And then pay some more.
If Jeff Gross of Kersey thinks this is such a good idea, where are his comments in support of this proposed initiative? Me thinks this is just another form of public narcissism for the publicity hungry Freda Poundstone to indulge herself in.
January 27, 2009
6:44 a.m.
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Ike writes:
OOPS! My bad! I thought it said AMT would increase, over caffineated this early.
January 27, 2009
6:57 a.m.
Suggest removal
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
The quotes in this article, are they referring to the 1/2 page long petition or the 26 page long Bruce Bill? Seems like the quotes are old and the legislators have yet to review the current petition?
January 27, 2009
7:04 a.m.
Suggest removal
classiccoupe writes:
Governments have a tendency to grow upon themselves, but in economic times like these, they need to facilitate recovery by cutting expenses and reducing taxes, and should have to tighten their belts right along with everyone else. However, when times are tough, you never hear about tens of thousands of government jobs going away, and we don’t see our property taxes going down along with home values.
January 27, 2009
7:19 a.m.
Suggest removal
Art writes:
"This would destroy government as we know it," said Sen. Chris Romer, D-Denver. Well that might just be the best thing that could happen. When government cannot live within its means and wants to tax and spend to the point where those paying the taxes cannot afford their basic necessities then we need to "destroy government as we know it". This would win approval of the people of Colorado in a landslide. It is just not clear how the state of Colorado could enforce the idea of ceasing the AMT since that is federal, but it is worth a try. Go for it Ms Poundstone!
January 27, 2009
7:29 a.m.
Suggest removal
GoodNewsGuy writes:
The fact of the matter is that government by it's very nature cannot contract, it can only expand. Government never has the incentive to reduce spending and government leaders cannot conceive of ways to reduce spending. Government leaders somehow feel that because we need them and "can't live without them" that they don't have to justify their spending and that if they are spending money to "help" us that their spending doesn't have to be justified. It's automatically "righteous". I've worked in government for years and have witnessed this phenomenon up close and first hand. I wish the governor could read this!
January 27, 2009
7:36 a.m.
Suggest removal
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
How could a petition destroy government? This statement was highly reactionary. The Rocky should have printed the petition in its entirety then the we could make up our own minds.
I think Lynn might have jumped the gun.
January 27, 2009
7:40 a.m.
Suggest removal
DeimosJB writes:
"This would destroy government as we know it," said Sen. Chris Romer, D-Denver.
One can only hope, withe the emphasis being on "as we know it", as nothing will ever destroy government.
"And it comes at a time when citizens are asking government to provide more solutions, more jobs, more health care," Romer said.
I don't want the government to provide any of that. I want the government to give me my money back, and I can provide all those things for myself at 1/2 the cost. With more money in my pocket, I can also provide more help to my less fortunate neighbors, since I have a much better idea of who is hurting in my community than some aristocrat in Denver. I could do all this and still come out ahead, because I would be cutting out about 6 layers of middlemen.
"This is the same Republican playbook that lost them the presidency, the Colorado legislature and the governorship," Romer said.
Actually, it was the failure of Republicans to follow Republican ideals that lost Republicans their power. Does anyone really believe that if Bush had just followed Republican ideals, such as maintaining a balanced budget, that folks would have voted the way they did?
"I am stunned by this," he said. "Folks like this won't be satisfied until government slips into the throes of anarchy."
Government slipping into anarchy, huh? Just a couple months ago wasn't it the Democrats that were accusing Republicans of using "the language of fear and terror" to try to cower people into submission?
Silly Republicrats. Silly Demicans. Away with the whole mess of you.
January 27, 2009
7:44 a.m.
Suggest removal
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
Lynn wrote: "Both sides are making their pitches to Colorado voters this week in an oddly timed clash of government philosophies."
Is there an election that I do not know about? Nobody will be making any pitch to any voter for years. First this must be sanctioned by the gov, then signatures must be gathered. Finally the voters will be the ultimate judge.
"Oddly timed clash of government philosophy's"? More like perfectly timed clash of philosophy. This is the time to cut taxes. Do you want to make a market correction/recession a great depression? If you answered yes, keep increasing taxes and keep increasing government spending. If you want to quickly correct, make permanent tax cuts and get the gov out of the way.
January 27, 2009
7:52 a.m.
Suggest removal
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
What is the current Federal budget? What is the current state budget? Hardly anarchy. When budget numbers drop into the thousands we can start using the anarchy word, however we all know this will never happen. Frankly we don't want this to happen and if we ever start moving towards anarchy the limited government movement will subside. This is all about balance folks.
Did Lynn Bartles and the Democrats cry out Communism when Ritter announced his 50 dollar average(hundreds for some) non voter approved, illegal tax hike? No they did not yet they falsely cry anarchy when a moderate tax reformation petition is suggested.
What is wrong with this picture?
January 27, 2009
8:20 a.m.
Suggest removal
Spud41 writes:
Go for the gold, Ms. Poundstone - you got my support. Romer, what can you say after that? He might as well said I'm for socialism.
January 27, 2009
8:36 a.m.
Suggest removal
303Centennial writes:
Go Freda!! The best way to get the economy going again is to put the money in the hands of the consumer who will spend the money, stimulate job growth and turn the sinking economy into a rising star. Get rid of Ritter and his clonies.
January 27, 2009
8:38 a.m.
Suggest removal
Triumph writes:
Freda Poundstone kicks "Bill" & Tax Ritter and all Romer's Butt anytime of the day!
My new heroine!
January 27, 2009
8:40 a.m.
Suggest removal
mokey writes:
ghoax wrote:
"It was that "same old Republican" philosophy that got us out of the Carter mess, that created the foundation for the economic expansion in the 90's, that forestalled todays problems until spend thrift democrats stole back Congress."
There's nothing that gets me more fired up than a liar...especially an ignorant liar.
Carter was a lot of things -- overwhelmed by the duties of his office, not aggressive enough with Iran, too bogged down with the details -- but Carter in fact got through BUDGET CUTS during his time in office, which those on the left were angered by. Carter was a fiscal conservative.
I was never a fan of Carter, but I wouldn't be so base as to make up stuff about him. Reagan drove the National Debt sky high before Bush 43 heaped on trillions of debt.
After we get out of this mess, Obama has already conceded that the federal government is going to need some fiscal medicine -- meaning cuts in various programs.
January 27, 2009
8:43 a.m.
Suggest removal
LockNLoad writes:
Its about time. Tax and spend democratic policies will sink the economy even lower than it is now.
Bailouts have been nothing but a pork feeding frenzy, and Nobama's plan is the same old story.
The state needs to cut costs for sure, but the economy needs to stimulated. Tax cuts are the only way.
You can't stimulate the economy by giving $10 billion dollars to ACORN, $100 million for contraseptives and so called family planning (codework for abortions), and millions to "prepare the public for government healthcare".
Stop the insanity of the Nobama and Democratic socialism.
January 27, 2009
8:44 a.m.
Suggest removal
bdx88 writes:
This sounds like a great program to curtail the increases in government spending. There is no way that almost every private company in Colorado is experience pain while the state government is still growing.
January 27, 2009
8:45 a.m.
Suggest removal
gs writes:
Help me out here please. Cuts in revenue like that would mean equal cuts in services. Right? The only place that gets that kind of money is welfare and healthcare I think. (Other than roads maybe). so with cuts like the above what will be cut? Anyone have an EDUCATED guess?
January 27, 2009
8:46 a.m.
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timeandagain writes:
No tax cuts in our socialist nation!!
January 27, 2009
8:48 a.m.
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rushrulesbaby writes:
Yaaaaayyyyyy Freda!!!! You go gal!!!!
January 27, 2009
8:48 a.m.
Suggest removal
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
What does the petition say?
My guess is that the petition will allow government to continue to grow however at a reduced rate of growth. The balloon will get bigger but not as quick.
January 27, 2009
8:48 a.m.
Suggest removal
Diff writes:
I am generally for any measure going to a vote of the people and thus by default sign petitions even for measures I would likely vote against.
Not sure I will sign this one however. I share concerns about government getting too big, and wasteful spending, and taxes being too high. I get all of that - yet I also realize the duties and results we all ask from and have even come to expect of our government(s), be it Local, State or Federal therefore they are in need the funding to do at least a decent or better job. Without enough funding there are benefits we all enjoy and need from government that will suffer in the long term. This seems poor timing, considering the State could be facing a huge short fall, but then again maybe not - everyone is in favor of tax cuts and never more so than during tough economic times as we are now facing.
Before you give this idea a rubber stamp of approval because of the two big populist ideas, reducing the size of government, and cutting taxes, please take time to consider; The states roads and highways, already in poor shape are seriously in need of work. State wide we are not doing the job we need to do for education, we lag seriously behind the nation, (and the country is starting to lag seriously behind the world) There are Families struggling and facing the ugly prospect of becoming homeless and there were probably Colorado children who went to bed hungry last night. Cutting State Spending at this level will add to the unemployment rate, and may further reduce the economy. (government spending does make it's way into the economic engine.. )Education is essential for Colorado to compete and in bring employment here, and the roads are a very important part of the infrastructure needed for economic activity and growth as well. There are many other State Funded functions that are essential and play a big part in the health of our state as a whole, I bring attention to these as but two examples that I believe are among the most critical.
This is a BAD idea, and the wrong time!
January 27, 2009
8:52 a.m.
Suggest removal
rushrulesbaby writes:
This plan is TABOR on steroids!!! I love it!!! Take that Tax Ritter!!!
January 27, 2009
8:53 a.m.
Suggest removal
tateman writes:
It's time for a change for sure. I understand there is a new face on the horizon for Governor. He is a business man and has stated he will stop this foolish spending and give Colorado back to the people. He has small business and senior corporate experience in international business so has seen alot. We hear also he is well liked and yet very stearn on foolish spending. I hope he sticks his head out soon so we can have some hope for getting Colorado back on track. I can't imagine why anyone of quality business experience would want to be governor of Colorado when it is the lowest paid Governorship in the country. Maybe that is why we only get LAWYERS who have no clue about business.
But if someone is willing to scarific for our state we hope he comes out soon.
January 27, 2009
8:58 a.m.
Suggest removal
280Pagoda writes:
Several hundred years ago scientists thought a perpetual motion machine might be possible to construct. Once built, it required no fuel, and would produce work forever.
It was a false dream.
And now that idea is resurrected in the idea that government can be that long-sought perpetual motion machine. Just get it started, and then it will work for all of us forever.
Except, rather than require no fuel, or even less fuel (taxes), it just keeps taking more and more. But the work? Actually, that productivity seems to decline rather than hold or increase.
Something has got to give. When Ritter puts a freeze on Colo State hiring - and then another 325 or so are hired anyway - we realize that a governmental hiring freeze isn't even cold. And Denver City Council suspends bonuses - and caps salary increases at 2.5% - when the private sector is laying off tens of thousands every month - and those who keep their job are often doing so by taking a 5% - 10% pay cut!
This is the disconnect of so many in government - the core belief that government is the long sought perpetual motion machine - normal economics be damned!
And that is part of the cause of the severe problems we face. We can't keep borrowing the future by having future generations pay for it. It must be pay as you go. Freda is at least trying to reconnect that there is no perpetual motion machine - government can't grow indefinitely if we can't pay for it; if the money is less, than we must make do with less.
The perpetual tax increase machine has got to stop. This is as good a place to start as any to let our businesses get back on their feet. At least there is accountability in the private sector, where businesses can't raise prices when sales fall.
We need to remember that perpetual motion is a fraud.
January 27, 2009
8:58 a.m.
Suggest removal
Diff writes:
One additional very interesting point - the alternative minimum tax would be dropped - who do think would benefit from that little item tucked inside this amendment? . . . .
The most wealthy among Coloradans...
I am also against in principle the constant amending of the state constitution - it has gone to far in recent years - and should stop!
every change to every law should not be a change of our constitution, it is just not needed, and makes it far to hard to undo!
January 27, 2009
8:59 a.m.
Suggest removal
303Centennial writes:
gs writes:
Help me out here please. Cuts in revenue like that would mean equal cuts in services. Right? The only place that gets that kind of money is welfare and healthcare I think. (Other than roads maybe). so with cuts like the above what will be cut? Anyone have an EDUCATED guess?
=-====================================
Not necessarily -- pick the ones the drain the people (there are far too many programs) and keep those that truly serve a valuable purpose in life. People need to be accountable for themseleve and quite relying on the State and Feds to bail them out. Sure, there are some services that are very much needed -- keep them and budget accordingly -- CUT the FAT!
January 27, 2009
9:04 a.m.
Suggest removal
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
How much paperwork/manpower will be saved because of this petition? There has to be better things to be doing with your time than complying with complicated/confusing government tax code. If this petition is sensible it will save the consumer and the government employee countless hours. I bet all of the business that are currently being forced to calculate Colorado vehicle tax regulations and Colorado communication regulations will rejoice when they realize the time savings.
Efficiency is the key to prosperity.
January 27, 2009
9:16 a.m.
Suggest removal
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
Tax revenue reductions do not result in the exact same amount of reduction in government services. You must first subtract all of the bureaucratic inefficiency from the equation.
Tax reductions do however benefit the producer dollar for dollar and then some. Every dollar you keep in play is a dollar invested.
January 27, 2009
9:26 a.m.
Suggest removal
sheepherder writes:
"This would destroy government as we know it," said Sen. Chris Romer, D-Denver."
With a sledge hammer I hope!
January 27, 2009
9:31 a.m.
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Slimjim_800 writes:
She floated some interesting ideas. I don't see why we cannot get rid of drivers licenses and vehicle registrations altogether. We do not need the authorities to know who we are and what we drive. I would also eliminate the 911 service. I do not know why she wants to keep this service. I've heard most of these calls are either false alarms or domestic disturbances. Reasonable adults should not have to rely on cops to resolve their personal issues.
January 27, 2009
9:35 a.m.
Suggest removal
freeomalley writes:
Where can I send my contribution to the cause and sign the petition?
January 27, 2009
9:38 a.m.
Suggest removal
jay045 writes:
Lets see how many of you howl with complaints if car registrations are $10 a year (with an additional $2 paid for ownership taxes). That means that if there are 2 million vehicles on the road in Colorado, there would be maybe $24 million to maintain all surface streets, roads and highways statewide. CDOT spent nearly $1 billion last fiscal year maintaining roads (see last page of http://www.dot.state.co.us/Budget/CDO... for details). And that figure doesn't include the hundreds of millions spent by county governments to maintain county roads, which all of us drive on every day. Granted, there are some federal dollars covering these costs, but user fees are likely the biggest source of revenue. As they should be.
January 27, 2009
9:39 a.m.
Suggest removal
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
The State budget is approx. 18B this year and will be more next year and more the year after and more the year after. The state budget was 3 B in 1985 and is now 18B. What will it be in 10 years, 30,40,50 B?
What amount will this petition reduce the above mentioned growth?
I would guess that over 10 years it might be a total reduction in growth of 1.5%.
However please remember the voter can approve more growth regardless of this petition.
The article would like to trick you into thinking that this measure is drastic so you vote no. The politicians do not want any restraint on their growth.
We must stop this foolish notion that the State must always expand.
January 27, 2009
9:44 a.m.
Suggest removal
gs writes:
I'd still like to see some specifics. However, alt min tax does NOT effect the wealthiest. It only strikes working couples making between 150k and 300k a year, people with qualified stock options that they exercise, and people with lots of trust fees. (the last one is a wealthy group). It's my opinion that every time a proposal like this goes to the statehouse the only things that get cut are roads and the judiciary. So you can't drive anywhere and if someone rips you off your day in court will be in the next millenium.
January 27, 2009
9:46 a.m.
Suggest removal
mrwiizrd writes:
Freda Poundstone is my new hero.
January 27, 2009
9:47 a.m.
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Diff writes:
Slimjim_800 - get rid of Driver licensing? I thing you would be one of the first to complain about some "unlicensed illegal " driving and getting into an accident... How would you propose to pay for roads - or even just plow the snow ... Do you ever complain about not seeing any snow plows out when it snows and the roads are not clear to you liking?
Eliminate 911? - why not eliminate having cops on patrol, and when you need one you just stop by the station house and ask for help, or report the crime after the fact, that is if your not beat too bad to make crawl on over or when your house catches on fire just let in burn - it will go out as soon as it's all burnt up...
You win for today - THE SPOD! for The Stupid Post of the Day award!
January 27, 2009
9:48 a.m.
Suggest removal
JamesTaylorSucks writes:
YEAAH You go girlfriend!
January 27, 2009
9:50 a.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
The current state sales tax on fuel is 22 cents per gallon.
The legislators could refer a measure to the voter asking to increase this amount to 23 or 24 cents per gallon.
Will this new money go to roads or be diverted elsewhere?
Why not word the measure very precisely to guarantee any new fuel tax revenue goes directly to the roads and nowhere else? Why not go one step further and dollar match new revenue with existing revenue that should already be going to roads but has been diverted?
Why not have new growth pay for new roads and have existing taxes pay for existing road maintenance?
January 27, 2009
9:51 a.m.
Suggest removal
gs writes:
The only thing I could think of cutting that would support that kind of tax cut (and this is pretty uneducated) is nursing home fees for indigent people.
January 27, 2009
9:58 a.m.
Suggest removal
Diff writes:
Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
"Why not have new growth pay for new roads and have existing taxes pay for existing road maintenance?"
Has that not been the plan of the last 10 - 15 years or more - and the state as whole has expereicned a good deal of growth in that time as well - yet it has not kept up with the actual needs. I know the state Gas tax has not increased in a very long time ( 17 years I think) and Gasoline delivered at the pump is down over the past 18 months...
and with increases in auto MPG - how can that keep up?
January 27, 2009
10 a.m.
Suggest removal
Scott writes:
GO FREDA, GO FREDA, GO FREDA ....
The ONLY thing Freda Poundstone's Bill will "destroy" is some of the power of the State Legislature and the governor. This is bad? (That was a rhetorical question, for the rhetorical impaired).
Politicians think (Freda is an exception) that THEY rule and THEY tell the voters what to do. These twerps need another dose of humility in the form of limiting their powers. For those of you that were out here when we approved TABOR, remember all of the doom and gloom prophesy from the politicians? (BTW, they are still prophesying it). It didn't happen did it. Yes we have had some tough times, but the doom and gloom never happened.
Scott
January 27, 2009
10:03 a.m.
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Diff writes:
gs writes
"The only thing I could think of cutting that would support that kind of tax cut (and this is pretty uneducated) is nursing home fees for indigent people."
And how much does the spend in this area?
Did the City get hit with a stupidity cloud today? -
I thought it was just fog!
January 27, 2009
10:10 a.m.
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Slimjim_800 writes:
Diff-are you suggesting driver licenses deters illegal immigration. That's news to me and its not working that well.
I don't see how the small amount I pay for registration fees and licensing could possilby be paying for roads and snow plows. It's more than likely that money is just going into overhead.
As far as 911. Have you ever called the number? I doubt it. It's the same people calling the number over and over again. The system is broken.
January 27, 2009
10:10 a.m.
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RightDownTheMiddle writes:
Any of you loons realize that those taxes may actually pay the salaries of human beings that work in our government?
Perhaps your neighbors, friends or family may not appreciate losing their govt jobs because Rush Limbaugh told you that govt is bad and tax cuts are good.....
January 27, 2009
10:19 a.m.
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SirRealist writes:
Government, at all levels, always wants to do more than it has money for - nature of the beast. And when there isn't any money for it, the people involved start looking to see where they can funnel it from, or how they can increase fees or taxes to let them move their agenda forward. The people in government also always believe they know more than the public about why their agendas should be progressed, and they always believe their agenda items are "urgent" or "necessary" and that they should be implemented and funded regardless of what the public wants.
Government is also more generous in giving away freebees than they should be, for example, free medical services, meals, housing, food stamps, etc for illegal aliens, sometimes to the exclusion of citizens receiving needed assistance. This is just how it works, and I'm not sure how to limit their mission and their power.
January 27, 2009
10:20 a.m.
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llaura33 writes:
Having lived in Florida where there is no state income tax, I was really shocked - not by the income tax, but by the cost of car registration. How can someone afford a decent car if they have to pay $300 or more every year to register their car? Especially in this day and age when no one has credit (or a job) and most people are living paycheck to paycheck. I think there is room for some discussion about making some of the fees more reasonable....I don't think $10 is an appropriate amount, but neither is $300.
January 27, 2009
10:22 a.m.
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Diff writes:
Slimjim_800 - I will only respond to say that your arguments are so poor - they are not worthy of any further comment.
"A smart man should not argue with a fool;
as those watching may not be able to tell the difference"
January 27, 2009
10:25 a.m.
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LockNLoad writes:
Diff:
The AMT is out dated and now affects millions of Americans. Congress has failed to update this bad idea.
every year, teh Feds send money tot he states for highways and transportation. UNfortuanely, the states have been misapproprating these funds for other pet projects, like getting ready for the Dumicratic convention or other stupid socialist programs.
This is a great bill, and it needs to be supported. Govenrment has to shrink and become efficient.
January 27, 2009
10:29 a.m.
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peterpi writes:
jay045, your comment is spot on! These posters want ridiculously low vehicle fees, etc. But they'll be the first to complain about lousy roads.
Paula Pounndstone fawns over the suburbs and doesn't give a damn about the rest of the state. Paula Poundstone is the very symbol of Ayn Rand "I've got mine, you got to hell!" triumphant individualism.
We're all in this together, folks. Of course, I suppose we could set it up so that every time you left your suburban cul-de-sac, you paid a toll to leave the driveway and enter the street. You paid a toll every time you crossed an intersection. You paid a toll every time you got on an on-ramp. You paid a toll every time you got on an off-ramp.
January 27, 2009
10:32 a.m.
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gs writes:
I'm not saying its a good idea or a bad idea but I do want to know what I'm getting into before I'm commited to it. And platitudes like low taxes set you free is simply not enough. Specifics please.
January 27, 2009
10:44 a.m.
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gs writes:
Diff,
Are you calling me stupid? If so I truly take offense at that. I don't know what SlimJim thinks but I am offended.
January 27, 2009
10:47 a.m.
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jbowen43 writes:
Just another blatantly stupid idea from the losers on the right. What we need is a progressive income tax based on the taxpayers ability to pay and all income needs to be taxed without all the exceptions and exemptions that have been put in place by the politically powerful.
January 27, 2009
10:50 a.m.
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Gonzopozo writes:
You morons supporting this have NO IDEA what it would do to State services from roads to snow removal to State Patrol to wildlife to driver's license to the health department to prisons to mailing out your precious tax refund checks - I could go on and on. You just blindly support any mindless proposal that lowers your taxes by $25 a year. This would bankrupt the State. And you-all would be the first to whine about the State not jailing illegals or some other pet government service that you personally depend on.
Thankfully it will never see the light of day. The lobbyists (Ms. Pondscum WAS one, remember, who pushed her employer's agenda for government money tirelessly - what a hipocrit) will go nuts when their special interests are threatened.
January 27, 2009
10:58 a.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
Diff,
Yes some vehicles are getting more MPG. However the total amount of fuel sold in Colorado had steadily been increasing.
People get better MPG, they drive more. They own more vehicles. More drivers in the family and in the state.
MPG has increased but not substantially and to prove this just look at the car market. Nobody is willing to purchase a new Honda Accord when there 10 year old Accord gets 28MPG and a 2009 accord gets 30 MPG. Just not worth it.
January 27, 2009
11 a.m.
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Diff writes:
No. - - Sorry if offended you - I offer my apology. truly sorry,
we should be able to disagree without needing to be offensive I was over the top...
it was a meant as a general statement - not intended to offend, more of an attempt at humor - there are some not so great arguments on here today -
Sometimes hard to get the humor message across via typing only,
I will tho re state my question - how much dose the state spend on nursing home cost for the indigent?
I would have to guess, but would say a small fraction of the state budget...
January 27, 2009
11:07 a.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
Gonzopozo,
Lowering the income tax rate could and will stimulate the economy and may attract business. Lowering vehicle taxes could and will stimulate the auto industry. Lowering communication taxes could and will stimulate business.
This net effect could easily result in an increased revenue base and increased prosperity for everyone!
For you to say that this will hurt is merely your opinion based on your understanding of economics and your personal political slant.
January 27, 2009
11:08 a.m.
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gs writes:
Thank you. I don't really know how much. I do remember that Gov Owens tried to stop having the state pay for nursing home care for the Russian immigrants a few years back. I think he was looking at BIG numbers but I don't have my hands on the financials so I couldn't say for sure. But if anyone does I'd like to hear from them.
January 27, 2009
11:10 a.m.
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SirRealist writes:
Actually JBowen, the way it "ought" to work is that the people should have a unified voice in letting their elected representatives know what they want done, based on costs and benefits. The conservative parties generally try to hold the line on spending, and the liberal parties generally try to push the envelope on spending. The hope is that it is a system of checks-and-balances in which no side gets their way, but the greatest benefit under reasonable expenditures is accomplished. But the idea that government officials should get to do anything they want is just preposterous.
And I disagree entirely with you that all income should be taxed, and it should be on a progressive basis. NO income should be taxed or we become "wage slaves" to be pushed about and controlled by government officials, just as we are now. What we should have is a consumption-based tax such as the "Fair Tax" (see www.fairtax.org) which would provide more money for government at all levels than they have now, give our poorest 15% (or so) a boost by eliminating the taxes on them and giving them a "prebate" annually, encouraging savings and investment, and putting hard controls on governmental spending.
All other taxes such as property taxes, auto registration taxes, excise taxes, etc, would be eliminated -- period. The sales tax would only be paid on new items, so it would also encourage us to get back to repairing/recycling/reusing things instead of continuing on the road of being a disposable society.
January 27, 2009
11:14 a.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
Gonzopozo wrote: "You just blindly support any mindless proposal that lowers your taxes by $25 a year. This would bankrupt the State."
Gonz this tax break could lower some peoples tax bill substantially but more importantly it does away with stacks of worthless paperwork.
Gonz what is the net 10 year effect of this petition? What is the net 10 year growth of CO state gov projected to be? What is the difference?
Gonz please try and use some objectivity.
January 27, 2009
11:26 a.m.
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Diff writes:
Lowtax...
OK - your point about MPG is taken - but I would guess the over all the gallons/mile traveled in the state is down - at least compared to 15 years ago - and will likely continue that direction. Yes there has been a significant increase of total road miles driven in the state over the same time - most attributable to growth. I would support an increase in the gas tax - as opposed to the recent proposal to increase registration fees. It would be a more fair way to asses the cost to those who use the infrastructure more and have a heavier (more ware and tear on the roads and lower MPG) vehicle. But the roads and bridges in the state are in very poor shape do to lack of enough maintenance and increased use. We were able to get by with that short term but it is soon reaching the point that the results of years of neglect are catching up to us, and to wait longer, will cost more in the long run.
January 27, 2009
11:29 a.m.
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Diff writes:
SirRealist - I do like much of what "fairtax.org" advocates - but I doubt that will happen anytime soon -
it makes too much sense ;->
January 27, 2009
11:37 a.m.
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ou8one2 writes:
"FRN4U writes:
Is this Romer related to Gov Romer?"
Yes, he is one of Gov. Romer's kids. By his wife and not his mistress.
January 27, 2009
11:44 a.m.
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Newenergycommie writes:
Ritter's new energy economy should be considered a tax increase as well. Right now the Colorado rate payers pay X for energy. Under the New Energy Economy they will get the same amount of energy at a cost of X plus. The plus is the new tax. Were do you think the plus will go?
January 27, 2009
11:55 a.m.
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SirRealist writes:
I agree with you Diff. Part of the problem is in getting the Congress to change from the current tax system, their bread-and-butter in ripping off the American people via deficit spending, and changing to a system that might mean quite a bit more transparency in their spending. If we could get the Congress to practice fiscal responsibility, we might actually be able to grow the economy, and pay on the national debt, which is - what did I hear? - just raised to more than $11 trillion I think. The problem is that our representatives are drunk with power and unlimited funds to spend, so we have to keep pushing and help them break their dependence.
January 27, 2009
12:15 p.m.
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Diff writes:
I think two of the first steps on a national level would be:
1. Put an absolute 100% end to lobbying and PACs - it would help to end the undo influence of the few and special interests
2. A balanced budget amendment to the US Constitution, with sensible allowances for deffect spending on a limited term basis for true national emergencies. with a 2/3 vote of the Senate required.
But we are really off subject now....
January 27, 2009
12:18 p.m.
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COGrownFarmBoy writes:
The problem with any ballot proposal like this is that it is too broad. I don't see how any rational person can vote for a constitutional amendment that prohibits "All other state and local government charges - except fines, tolls, parking, seizure, inspection and new plate charges." This is WAY to broad. I am generally in favor of charging people for the things that they are using. A couple who is getting married should pay for their wedding license...hunters pay for hunting licenses (a very successful program from what I understand)...etc. I also think that reducing the vehicle registration charge is unnecessary. The registration charge is based on the value of the vehicle. I have a perfectly good little pickup that costs me all of $35 a year for registration...this is nothing compared to the cost of the insurance. Reducing taxes is a good thing...when it is done responsibly. There isn't anything about this proposal that seems responsible.
January 27, 2009
1:15 p.m.
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realleah writes:
Note to you tax and spend bureaucrats:
it's our money! when is enough..enough?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation was
the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom could stay home to raise the kids (if she so desired).
What in the world happened? Politicians! And we keep voting for them over and over again. How stupid are we?
"Democracy was the right of the people to choose their own tyrants." - James Madison
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Service Charge Tax
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax
Sales Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Non-recu rring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
January 27, 2009
2:31 p.m.
Suggest removal
Diff writes:
realleah - your list is reveling to be sure...
Tho there are many over laps and effectively duplicates on the list - the same tax with a different name ( Real Estate Tax, School Tax, and Property Tax...and Recreational Vehicle Tax, would that not be the same as registering any vehicle. just a couple of examples) and few others that are fees - paying for a part of registering, or recording something that are questionable like your listed Marriage License Tax and a couple of others that are just plain questionable... and show creativity at least.
But you have made your point! - Last I heard the total taxes collected in the US ran something like 40% of the average income. I agree that is too high! Means we all have government job
But cosnider this too - a similar long list of the the things that government does, and that we expect them to continue to do could be made as well - like the defense of the nation,and roads to drive on and carry most of the commerce on, education of the population, prisons.
I could go on but I thing that makes the my point!
January 27, 2009
2:39 p.m.
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Diff writes:
>I think that makes my point<
At least they are not yet taxing poor typing - I'd be in real trouble.
January 27, 2009
2:57 p.m.
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lets_B_Real writes:
Alright cut the taxes and cut government staffing. Then when we all have to wait in 10 hour lines to get our Driver’s License, License Plates, Marriage License, Driver Records, or any of the millions of documents every resident needs we'll all cry about how something needs to be fixed. Everyone wants and wants it now but when it comes time to pay for it suddenly we can't find our wallets. The Society we have become is DISGUSTING.
January 27, 2009
3:16 p.m.
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Diff writes:
For your consideration about "Fair Tax" I genrealy like the ideal but it is not without good arguments against it:
"Rejecting all the tricks of FairTax supporters and calculating the tax rate honestly--by including the higher spending that it mandates and by being realistic about what could actually be taxed--professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.
A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%. In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place. But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%. If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion)."
January 27, 2009
3:19 p.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
Diff,
You do pay phone tax and communications tax so yes your poor typing is being taxed! :)
January 27, 2009
3:28 p.m.
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Diff writes:
In a Sense it could be - however it covers up for my poor spelling...
January 27, 2009
3:41 p.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
"This would destroy government as we know it," said Sen. Chris Romer, D-Denver
Is this guy for real?
January 27, 2009
3:47 p.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
Diff wrote: In a Sense it could be - however it covers up for my poor spelling...'
lol
January 27, 2009
5:23 p.m.
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richincentennial writes:
State governments at all level have refused to follow the Spirit and the Letter of the law with TABOR. The liberal judges have let it happen. Debt was supposed to be voter approved, but they allow "certificates of participation" to get around that. And fees are constantly going up. A tax by another name. Lets see how much attention they can give to gutting TABOR if they are going to have to fight this proposal. Chris Romer sounds just like his dad did when TABOR was first presented to the voters. Don't believe it. Colorado is in so much better shape than other states are now that we are in a recession and TABOR can take a lot of credit for that. GO FREDA!
January 28, 2009
8:16 a.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news...
January 30, 2009
7:48 a.m.
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Lowtaxequalsfreedom writes:
"This would destroy government as we know it," said Sen. Chris Romer, D-Denver.
And the Oscar goes tooooooooo..................