Former Broncos defensive coordinator Collier explains art of 3-4 defense
Scheme would require Broncos to change roster
By Jeff Legwold, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published January 23, 2009 at 10:21 p.m.
Photo by The Rocky / 1977
Nose tackle Rubin Carter was a key player in former Broncos defensive coordinator Joe Collier's 3-4 defense.
Photo by The Rocky / 2005
Former Broncos defensive coordinator Joe Collier explains the roles of the players in the 3-4 defense. "The nose tackle is probably the single-most important guy," he said.
It had been more than four decades since the Broncos surrendered more than 400 points in back-to-back seasons.
But newly hired Broncos coach Josh McDaniels has inherited a team that had done just that, with 409 points allowed in 2007 to go with a staggering 448 allowed this past season. And while McDaniels has been mum about his specific blueprint to repair that, his recent additions to his coaching staff, to go with his own resume, point to a 3-4 defense in the Broncos' future, possibly as soon as the 2009 season.
And to build that will take a considerable roster commitment, according to one of the men who knows it best - former Broncos defensive coordinator Joe Collier.
Collier, who spent 20 seasons (1969-1988) with the Broncos and still lives in the Denver area, is the one who put the 3-4 into the pages of the franchise's history. He's also the one Patriots coach Bill Belichick, McDaniels' former boss, often has credited with first showing him the defense.
"And you build it from the inside out," Collier said. "The nose tackle and the inside linebackers, those are three guys that are very important. But when you go through it, the nose tackle is probably the single-most important guy.
"He has to hold it all together and make it so the guards can't get out on the inside linebackers. Let me put it this way - the nose tackle can make the inside linebackers look pretty good, and if your inside linebackers look pretty good, you're going to play pretty good defense."
McDaniels has said he and defensive coordinator Mike Nolan would evaluate the team's personnel before making any formal decisions about schemes. But Broncos vice president of football operations/player personnel Jim Goodman said at the Senior Bowl this week the Broncos already knew what kind of personnel they were looking for.
And it's clear the Broncos have no one on their current roster to play the centerpiece position in the 3-4.
Dewayne Robertson, listed at 308 pounds, is the Broncos' biggest defensive lineman and has played nose tackle in his career.
But he repeatedly has said he did not enjoy his time on the nose in the New York Jets' 3-4 before his trade to the Broncos, and that was one of the reasons he wanted a trade.
He's also far lighter than 325- pound Vince Wilfork and 325- pound Casey Hampton - both likely play at heavier weights than are listed - who are considered two of the best nose tackles in football in the two best 3-4 defenses in the league in New England and Pittsburgh, respectively.
"But that guy is the first guy you have to get," Collier said. "He has to be physically capable of playing the position and mentally tough enough to do it over the long haul. I used to ask Rubin Carter's son, Andre, all the time where he wanted to play in the NFL and he'd always say, 'Anywhere but nose tackle, because I saw how my dad walked around the house on Mondays.'
"The nose tackle, all three guys up front, have to play with that physical side and they have to be unselfish, powerful and ready to deal with the fact they have to do their jobs well so other people may make the tackles, force the fumbles, get the sacks and interceptions."
Tall order
The two defensive end spots traditionally are filled by players with the body types the Broncos don't have on their roster. The Steelers and Patriots start defensive ends who are at least 6-foot-5 and at least 285 pounds. New England starts two 300 pounders in Ty Warren and Richard Seymour.
Backup defensive tackle Nic Clemons (6-6, 300) is the only lineman on the current Broncos roster who stands taller than 6-4 and also is 300 pounds.
"Those ends, especially the guys on the strong side, have to be able to hold the ground," Collier said. "He's going to get
double-teamed almost every time, and he can't dig in 8 yards down the field; he's got to hold at the point (of attack) so that linebacker can come around the bend behind him to make the play."
The two outside linebacker spots require some work as well. The weak-side linebacker on the outside, who lines up away from the offense's tight end, usually on the defensive right, is the primary pass rusher.
This often is a former college defensive end. The Steelers feature the NFL's Defensive Player of the Year in this spot in James Harrison, who is 6-foot, 240 pounds, but is a refined rusher who also can hold up in the run game if necessary.
This is the spot where Elvis Dumervil (5-11, 260) and Jarvis Moss (6-6, 265) likely would have to make the transition into a 3-4 if they are going to have active roles in the defense.
In the other outside linebacker spot - the strong side - the Patriots and Steelers play 260-pound players there. The Steelers line up LaMarr Woodley, another refined pass rusher who played end for two of his four seasons at Michigan and had two sacks in the AFC Championship Game, who checks in at 6-2, 265.
The Patriots have played the 261-pound Mike Vrabel, a former defensive end at Ohio State, in that spot as well.
The Broncos have only one linebacker in excess of 240 pounds, the 263-pound Mario Haggan, who split time at middle linebacker as this past season drew to a close.
Easier transition
Collier said the two inside linebacker spots have to be filled by players who can move well enough to get to both sides of the field. But he added that if the work is done correctly in front of them, those two players often can make the transition the easiest from a 4-3 defense they have played in college or elsewhere in the NFL.
The Steelers have played some lighter players inside, like the 239-pound Larry Foote, in their attacking scheme. The Patriots have two 240-pounders on the inside in Jerod Mayo and Tedy Bruschi; Bruschi was a defensive lineman in college at Arizona, having even played nose tackle at times, and was converted to a linebacker by Belichick.
"But in the end, a 3-4, it's not the answer to everything," Collier said. "You play a game, you figure you have 60 plays or so on defense. You might be in the straight 3-4 about 20 or so plays of the 60. The rest of the time, you're going to be in down-and-distance situations where you might take a linebacker and put him in a three- point (stance), or add a defensive back, go with five or six defensive backs. You have packages.
"So it's just part of the defensive scheme, just one of the things you're going to be doing and not everything. But it's like anything, it takes some continuity to be good at it. The Steelers and Patriots, they've been playing it a while. And 75 percent of our success when we did it was that guys played in the same system 10, 12 years."
ASSISTANT ADDED: Clancy Barone, tight ends coach for the past two seasons with the San Diego Chargers, was hired for the same position with the Broncos. He also was an assistant coach for the Atlanta Falcons from 2004-06.
Shopping list
If the Broncos want to go 3-4 on defense - three linemen and four linebackers - here's what longtime defensive coordinator Joe Collier said is needed to play some of the more important spots in the defense that differ from a traditional 4-3 look.
* Nose tackle (plays over the center): "He has to be strong, have good balance and be willing to battle in there all the time. No plays off. He makes it go."
* Defensive ends: "Also have to be strong, really strong. They're going to be head up on a lineman most of the time, so when they get double-teamed, they can't get pushed off the ball. If they do, you have some situations and they aren't going to be good."
* Outside linebacker (weak side, away from the tight end): "He's the rusher, he's the speed guy. Has to be good enough in the rush to beat tackles one-on-one enough to make plays and always beat any backs who try to block him."
* Outside linebacker (strong side, directly across from the tight end): "This is a tough position to play, because he has to be quick enough to help you in the rush and drop out and cover that tight end or back a lot. But he's also got to be strong enough to get in there against the run, because most teams are going to be dominant to the strong side in the run game."
* Inside linebackers: "These guys have to move in space, work off the battles in front of them, find the openings and get to the ball. And if the guards do get to them, they have to get off the block and make the plays."
Different deals
The Steelers and the Patriots - they were the No. 1 and No. 10 defenses in the league during the regular season - are considered to have the best 3-4 defenses going in the league. But they are different in their approaches.
* Steelers: An attacking zone blitz look. They will drop defensive linemen into coverage and add players in the rush in a wider variety of looks. They blitz two defensive backs at times and rush them alongside two outside linebackers or put one defensive lineman down in a three-point stance and rush three other players from unexpected spots along the line of scrimmage.
* Patriots: Former Broncos defensive coordinator Joe Collier, whose son Joel coached under Bill Belichick with the Patriots for a time, said Belichick is far more traditional in his attempt to win the line of scrimmage. Most often he lets the big guys fight the battles up front. "He'll add some unexpected things in the rush at times, but when he does some things, it's more from the secondary and in coverages than (the Steelers). The Steelers attack the quarterback," Collier said.
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January 23, 2009
11 p.m.
Suggest removal
Dynamicdave writes:
Great article, Jeff. This will take some digesting to figure from this who might stick with the Broncos and who won't fit in? Gives us fans more stuff to argue about, ha, ha. Thanks.
January 24, 2009
12:53 a.m.
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vieng111 writes:
Reality plans for our defense in the 3-4. Remember, we can’t draft the top 10 prospects and let them start on our defense. With our draft I would say 1-2 starters at best (either Maualuga or BJ Raji). Therefore, we must use the free agent route and use who we have. My plan, what do you think?
NT - BJ Raji (6’2” – 335lb) – Best DT in the draft
DE – D. Robertson & M. Thomas (Both big & strong for the outside)
ILB – DJ Williams & W. Woodyard (Two awesome headhunters)
OLB – E. Dumervil & J. Moss (Both very speedy with good size)
FS – J. Barrett (Power, speed, and size)
SS – Free agent
CB – Champ & Free agent
January 24, 2009
6:45 a.m.
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Astro1 writes:
Vieng, actually, I like it - I would even say that if the top five were to work out that way, Dre might even work out across from Champ because I think he still a decent corner but QBs had way too much time to wait on receivers and Dre's coverage eventually broke down. Another poster mentioned several days ago that there would probably be a few good safeties available in rounds 2 and 3 in the draft, but I don't recall who they said.
January 24, 2009
6:52 a.m.
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pete10000ft writes:
There's gotta be some current players calling there agents...
January 24, 2009
7:07 a.m.
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BroncoJones writes:
The 3-4 requires big bodies up front, and Denver has traditionally been fast and light on Defense. Since that is about to change, the draft becomes paramount, and so without further adieu:
Round 1 - Rey Malaluga/James Laurinaitus LB (Laurinaitus if we go with the Pittsburg style, Malaluga if we go with the New England style)
Round 2 - Ron Brace - NT
Round 3 - David Bruton - S
Round 4 - Caldwell - C (if available) - Eric Wood if not
Round 5 - Joe Burnett - CB/KR
Round 6 - Herb Donaldson - RB
Round 7 - Nadar Abdullah - DT
FA - Dustin Crawford - CB/S
FA - Jervonte Jackson - DT
FA - Corey Lewis - RB
FA - Brandon Mason - RB
Just some names to throw out there for your consideration. Mel Kiper says we will take Raji #1, but he will probably be gone by then. Any way...Brake out the crystal balls and see what you come up with.
January 24, 2009
7:34 a.m.
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tmcd writes:
I would be interested to see if J Moss could suceed as an OLB. He is tall, light and fast. Maybe this would free him up to be that dominant pass rusher we all thought he could be. As for Elvis, I really think this would add about 5 more sacks a year as an OLB.
January 24, 2009
7:47 a.m.
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ColoradoSportsFaninTexas writes:
Good insightful article by Mr. Legwold....
It sounds as if the Broncos already have a good idea of what position they will focus on in the draft. From what I have been reading, that NT from Boston College would be a very good pick, if he is still there at No. 12....
At any rate, the Broncos will have to pick a base defense, and stick with it....the 3-4 scheme sounds as if it can be very successful, but it needs time for the players to get used to, and the right type of players who can make it work. Broncos fans may need to exercise some patience before they will see results...
It will be an important offseason for the Broncos, as it seems they will need to make some important decisions on who they draft, and who they acquire in Free Agency....
It should be a very interesting offseason for the Broncos....
January 24, 2009
8:14 a.m.
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Broncody writes:
Astro1, I like Chung out of Oregon. Vieng111, I like your line-up. I don't know how well DJ Williams would being put back inside. I would want him on the strong side and maybe trade up for Maualuga, I think I saw him on Mel Kiper's list in the upper 20's, so if we could trade down a few spots and still get either Raji or Cody and pick up some picks to trade to get back into the first, late in the round, and end up with one of the top NT + Rey. I know it sounds too good to be true but I like to dream big.
Second thought, I wouldn't mind spending a late draft pick on Mitch King. I live in Burlington so I may be biased, but take him to the DE spot and see how he developes. He could put on more weight and has the "motor" that I like to see out of players. I'm not saying he is the ROY but he could develope into a solid DE in a 3-4
January 24, 2009
8:24 a.m.
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broncodude writes:
Thank you, Joe Collier, for all that you've done for the Broncos organization. You're a class act.
January 24, 2009
8:27 a.m.
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Buddy6 writes:
Since we are all dreaming!
DE - Clemons / Ekuban (Draft Choice)
NT - Raji* / Thomas
DE - Shaw /Crowder (Draft Choice)
OLB - Moss
ILB - DJ
ILB - Dumervil (Draft Choice)
OLB - Bailey (If he is healthy)
SS - Woodyard (To good to not have on the field)
FS - Barrett (missed alot of tackles, so maybe a Draft Choice)
CB - Bailey
CB - Bly (Better than he gets credit for)
January 24, 2009
8:57 a.m.
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BroncoJones writes:
How about:
NT - Raji/Brace
DE -Crowder
DE - Thomas
Mike - Laurinaitis/Malaluga
Willie - Dumerville
OLB - DJ
OLB - Moss/Boss
CB - Champ
CB - Bly
SS - Woodyard
FS - Barrett
Draft choices to play when able. What free agents might we have a shot at?
January 24, 2009
9:28 a.m.
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piano3 writes:
If McDaniels is smart, he will ask Joe Collier to come on board in an advisory capacity. It doesn't sound as if the years have lowered his football IQ and the man does know the 3-4.
Just a thought.
January 24, 2009
9:30 a.m.
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DenverDon writes:
GREAT article Jeff. Many serious Bronco fans crave this type of insightful article. Keep em coming. I personally hope that they trade down in the 1st round (unless Raji is there) to get extra picks. Forgotten in these comments is our woeful play at safety. Utpoia for me would be to trade down to get the safety from Missouri and use the extra picks for LB' and DL's.
As Collier says, it takes a long time to mesh in the 3-4. All the new players and/or players changing positions is going to make for a rough ride. We can only hope that we can at least rise to "below average" on defense in the first year and give Cutler and the offense a chance to shine.
January 24, 2009
9:56 a.m.
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milehi writes:
Very good article. Yes it will take some time but they are not good at what they do now if fact horrible. There are players on the D side that need to be gone so build for the 3-4. Other teams have done it and it does not take that much time it is getting good players.
Why did Joe collier leave the Broncos in 1988? Did he coach anywhere after that or did he just step aside? Why did Denver not keep his knowledge withh asst. coaches to continue the system? Sounds like Belichick paid attention and used what he learned at other coaching jobs he had.
January 24, 2009
10 a.m.
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crzybroncofan615 writes:
Here is the best roster that I can think of as far as putting a decent 3-4 scheme out on the field every sunday. Everyone needs to keep in mind what Collier said. This thing doesn't happen overnight. It will take a couple of years...or more. Well, here it is:
DE- Dwayne Robertson, Marcus Thomas
DT- Has to be a major free agent or draft aquisition.
OLB- Dumervil, Woodyard (Broncos should and need to make a splash here. Julius Peppers is a free agent and has repeatedly said he wants to get away from the 4-3 in Carolina. He says that he would be best suited as a OLB in the 3-4 scheme and has the perfect size to do so...)
ILB- DJ Williams, Rey Maualuga (LB best suited for a 3-4 in the entire draft, a natural MLB.)
ss- It is a toss up for both safety positions. So I am not going to put anybody but a free agent/draft choice for either position.
FS- Same as above...
CB- Bailey, Bly, Josh Bell, Paymah, Draft Choice...
January 24, 2009
10:14 a.m.
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milehi writes:
I think Dwayne Robertson is done. If he could have played end in a 3-4 Jets would have kept him. I don't think his knees will allow him to play any longer at the level he needs to play at.
January 24, 2009
10:27 a.m.
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SE7EN writes:
I agree with most of you regarding Bly. He's a good corner, the problem is the lack of pressure coming from the d-line. The QB has way too much time to throw, making Both Bailey and Bly ineffective. Bly and Bailey are a waste of cap space if the D-line doesn't do its job. Doesn't matter if your the best Corner that God has ever created, an average WR will still beat you if he has 8+ seconds to run his route and get open.
I think in a year or two, Bailey should make the transition to Safety, hopefully by that time we can draft Taylor Mays from USC.
January 24, 2009
10:31 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
Face it this 3-4 will not be built in 1 year. Us fans need to get our minds adjusted away from the win right now attitude. We need to do what Joe says and do what we can(even move up to draft) and get Raji. Then start piecing around him. It is going to take a year or two of trial and error. Face we will not be in the Super Bowl next year.
January 24, 2009
11:01 a.m.
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lamborghini2415 writes:
idk guys i dont see robetson or thomas playing d end there big strog guys but not fast enough. Definetly dont have the speed to rush the passer. I do see moss and dumervil playing outside lb and dj and and and draft pick in for lb but we should definitly go for bj raji in the first if hes nog there we should get rey maualuga he would fit fine to. i think if we dont get bj than robertson will have to do for this year an how bout larry english the pass rusher in the second round hes be looking good
January 24, 2009
11:36 a.m.
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DA writes:
milehi - Collier was fired after the Broncos got smoked by the 49ers in the Super Bowl (55 to 10 I think). Everything goes in cycles and at that time the 3-4 was getting figured out by the offensive gurus in the NFL. 10 years later the Broncos had an attacking 4-3 and were winning the Super Bowl. 10 more years, back to the 3-4.
January 24, 2009
11:49 a.m.
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Bronco65 writes:
Thanks for such an informative and insightful article with input from coach Collier. One of the best on the Broncos I've read in months.
One question; didn't the Broncos try the 3-4 a couple of years ago when Shanny brought poppa Bates in as the miracle worker defensive coordinator? It was a bust even though Bates brought in new defensive linemen more suited to the 3-4.
January 24, 2009
11:53 a.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
Vieng 111,
Woodyard is way to small to be an inside linebacker, I believe his "official weight" is around 230 lbs but by his own admission he is much lighter than that, something in the range of 10-15 pounds lighter. Adding weight might not be the answer, either. One his body may not allow him to get up to no less than 240lbs and even if can it could effect his speed in a negative way.
I've heard several of our fans mention Robertson as DE in the 3-4 but again he doesn't really fit either according to what Collier says. Robertson is goes about 6'1". I know he's played in a 3-4 as the NT but he didn't like it and from what I've heard he wasn't very good at it. Also with the kind stress that it will put on his legs I don't think that's good mix.
January 24, 2009
12:47 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
[Bronco65 writes:
Thanks for such an informative and insightful article with input from coach Collier. One of the best on the Broncos I've read in months.
One question; didn't the Broncos try the 3-4 a couple of years ago when Shanny brought poppa Bates in as the miracle worker defensive coordinator? It was a bust even though Bates brought in new defensive linemen more suited to the 3-4.]
No we stuck with 4-3.
January 24, 2009
1:01 p.m.
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Brain writes:
BJ Raji is having a great week at the Senior Bowl practice and is now being projected as a POSSIBLE top ten pick. I see that most mock drafts have him going to T.B. 19th or ATL 24th but that might not be considering this week at the SR Bowl. The highest projection is to CIN at #6 and that is because their coaches are coaching at the SR Bowl; I don’t think he’ll go that high. I think G.B. at 9th is a good bet though. If he is still there at 12 we should take him otherwise Maualuga would be good. If neither is there we should trade down around 20th (get 3rd round pick?), which is what I liked the best before Raji started moving up. We could still get Michael Johnson DE or William Moore S around 20. Aaron Maybin is also a possibility around 20.
I like:
2ND RND CB Alphonso Smith WF
3 SS Nick Harris OK
3b (if trade down) DT Chris Baker Hampton
4 LB Daniel Holtzclaw E. Mich.
5 RB Keiland Williams LSU
5b LB Victor Butler Oregon St
6 DE/OLB? Brandon Swain W TX A&M
7 WR Jeremy Childs Boise St
7b DE Jeremy Navarre Maryland
If we get Raji at 12 then Baker wouldn’t be picked in the 3rd, everything else would be the same. If we traded down and get Moore then Nick Harris may need to be changed?
January 24, 2009
1:29 p.m.
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iebroncofan writes:
If we run the 3-4 we need to draft a Ilb first it is a good draft for them.I like Laurinaitis over Maualuga.Look to pick up a NT in the 2nd round,like Ron Brace out of BC (true nose tackle). In the 3rd I like Emanuel Cook out of South Carolina to play FS.Woodyard is only like 215 pounds-not an inside linebacker.I would like to see what he could do in a SS role,I don't believe he is fast enough or has the ideal coverage skills to play FS.So with that here's my projected defense.
NT - Ron Brace*,Carlton Powell
DE - Ekuban,Thomas
SOLB - Boss
WOLB - Dumervil
ILB - Laurinaitis*,DJ
CB - Champ,Bly
SS - Woodyard,Barret
FS - Emanuel Cook*
January 24, 2009
1:40 p.m.
Suggest removal
TXBRONC writes:
iebroncofan,
Good linebackers are easier to find than good nose tackles. So I do disagree with you that the first order of business in my opinion is get the nose tackles. Look at what Collier said, he said you build a 3-4 defense from the inside out and that single most important piece is the nose tackle.
One other thing, I'm a huge USC fan so I would take Maualuga over Laurinaitis any day of the week.
January 24, 2009
1:53 p.m.
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iebroncofan writes:
TXBRONC,
I don't think you could go wrong with either linebacker.I just think lauriniatis is ready to play now.The reason I'm not taking a defensive tackle in the 1st is I don't think there is a DT worthy of the #12 pick.Look at Ron Brace out of BC,built to play NT.But he is only projected to be a 2-3 round pick.Take him in the second,he would be the starting NT from day one.
January 24, 2009
2:28 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
Fair enough iebroncofan, but as you feel about Lauriniatis I think the same of Maualuga. I've also seen Ron Brace practice this week and he didn't look nearly as quick out of his stance as Raji did. I don't pretend to be a draft expert, I'm just telling what I saw this week.
January 24, 2009
3:09 p.m.
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SB32_33 writes:
I know this may be high hopes but we have cap space to obtain these FA's, and if this pipe dream would transpire, (wouldn't it be great!!!)
NT-Haynesworth(Fa) 6'-6" 320lbs
DE-Shaun Cody (FA) 6'-4" 310lbs, Marcus Thomas 6'-3" 305lbs
SSOLB-Elvis Dumervil 5'-11" 260lbs
MLB Ray Maualuga (DP) 6'-2" 260lbs , D.J. Williams 6'-1 242lbs
WSOLB Julius Peppers (FA) 6'-7" 283
DB Champ Bailey 6'-0" 192 lbs----Dre Bly 5'-10" 185lbs
SS Wesley Woodyard 6'-1" 220lbs
FS Josh Barret 6'-3" 225lbs
Mix in some draft picks for depth.
January 24, 2009
3:18 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
Haynesworth has the size to play nose tackle but I don't see him wanting to do so. It's much more demanding play nose tackle and that doesn't appear to be his game.
January 24, 2009
3:33 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
TXBRONC, Denver did try the 3-4, 2 seasons ago. The players said they were "confused" so Bates went back to the 4-3.
I still say get Maualuga in the 1st. Trade up with the conditional pick that Atlanta (they are 16 in the draft) owes us and maybe a future draft pick and try to hook Raji (if he's still available). Wheel and deal. Then get Patrick Chung (Safety) in the 2nd. Still say get Peppers in the FA.
January 24, 2009
4:16 p.m.
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PJ6677 writes:
We really need to get a safety that can bring the hurt, period. Im talkin' Atwater hurt. Also need to get rid of Bly (waste of money), Paymah (who is a joke), and Robertson (to old). Pretty sure we could get some pics in the 2nd or 3rd round off one or two of those guys. Draft another tight end, AND a slot guy that can learn from Stokely. Sign a vet nose tackle, and draft a guy low that can also learn.
Would love to see Elvis standing up. I think he would be a great weakside LB. He would give QB's a hard time trying to throw over him with his arms being so long, and we know he has the speed and power to rush from the back side. Its about time we see what all the hype was about with Crowder and Moss too. I say throw em on the outside of DJ and Woodyard on running plays and see what happens. Cant be any worse than what we got goin now.
January 24, 2009
4:32 p.m.
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scgoff writes:
Bates did not use a 3-4. He used a 2 gap 4-3 scheme, large DT occupy o-line to allow DE aggressively work the outside and LB to flow to the ball.
I don't think Moss would make a good WLB. Moss has shown no skillset needed to play WLB (especially a DE in a 3-4), no more than the ability to play in the NFL. He was targeted as a speed rusher when drafted but his lack of strength prevents creating separation. His height makes him easy for being cut blocked by the running back.
Dumerville has speed to get around the edge; long arms and low center of gravity which will help shedding blocking running backs. However, if Curry falls to 12th pick, take him. He'd make a perfect WLB.
Maualuga ILB USC-Better size, known to miss tackles like Nate Webster. While watching the Rose Bowl he had a difficult time shedding blockers ie watch play when Clark scores touchdown.
Laurinitis ILB Ohio-Smaller frame better football instincts and in the bowl game sheds blocks better than Mauluga.
There are many potential LB and DT in this draft in the first two rounds. Raji, Hook, Perry, and Moala have shown well at the Senior Bowl practices. So has LBs Matthews and Cushing.
January 24, 2009
5:23 p.m.
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dgagnon313 writes:
Jarvis Moss can't play OLB, so let's just forget that. He's an end and that's it. I think he can handle playing end part of the time in a 3-4, kinda like Trevor Pryce in Baltimore, depending on the situation. Speaking of Baltimore, Suggs, Scott and Lewis are all free agents and they'll likely only be able to keep one, possibly two, but unlikely.
Wesley Woodyard shouldn't play safety, so let's just forget about that. He's way too good of an OLB anyway, and I think he could become a Bart Scott/Bruschi type of linebacker in a 3-4.
Thirdly, I am not sold at all on Raji. I've read more than a few articles on him that he comes with serious baggage. He missed numerous games in college from suspensions, injuries, and bad grades. Plus, I think drafting a cornerstone DT in a 3-4 at this point in time is dangerous for Denver. Instead they should simply sign a free agent DT. Haynesworth is probably too expensive, but others like Kendric Golston from the skins, Grady Jackson from Atlanta, or Rocky Bernard from the Seahawks are available. Denver would be safer signing one of these guys and drafting either Rey or Laurinitis in the 1st Round to play ILB.
With this in mind, I think this is more of what you'll see next year.
DE - Combos of Moss, Crowder, draft choices, signed FAs
DT - Signed FA, like Golston
DE - FA, maybe Terrel Suggs
OLB - Dumervil
ILB - DJ
ILB - Rey or Laurinitis
OLB - Woodyard (Woodyard, despite his lack of size, can play here if he puts on 10 more lbs, much like Bart Scott in BAL or Bruschi in NE)
CB - Champ
SS - Draftee here. Patrick Chung in the 2nd round sounds good.
FS - Maaaaybe Barrett. I wasn't that sold on him. FA or draftee is possible here, too.
CB - Dre Bly, although I certainly, certainly hope not.
The biggest changes will be on the line, led by the signing of nose. The first couple rounds should address LB and safety concerns. I'd be happy if Denver went this route.
January 24, 2009
8:10 p.m.
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royalmarshalls writes:
After watching the Senior Bowl game, at least the first half, I saw some interesting things.
Oregons Patrick Chung is a guy I would really like to get, Dave I see why you continously mention him. He tackles well and hits hard, something we could use. I saw Raji get handled fairly easy a couple times during the game, one particular play on the goal line TD the South had towards the end of the half. That along with the negative things I keep hearing about his work ethic and personal attitude is making me question this guy alot. Maualuga missed a easy tackle, loosing his footing, but made up for it a few plays later with that forced fumble, so I am still all for Rey. Plus, even though he got blown past, he still chased the play down and was there too help somewhat on the tackle. Like too see a guy not giveup on a play just cause he missed the tackle. I really like what I saw from Oregons Jeremiah Johnson. Quick runner, looked like he saw the field well, plus was very good out of the backfield as a receiver. I know nothing on him, however, so if someone could hit me with a different opinion I would appreciate it. I too, am not a draft expert, I just am speaking from what I saw. He hasnt done much, but Louie Sakoda looked smooth on his 40 yard FG. Louis Delmas made a nice hit blowing up one of the running backs, not sure of his name, which made me yell "ooohhh" at the TV.
Just calling things out which I took a personal notice too. I think we are all on to the right players, now lets just hope that we can have a defensive draft similar too last years offensive draft. :)
January 24, 2009
8:22 p.m.
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milehi writes:
Bates used a 4-3 and it was awful. His defensive scheme was dropped by Miami and now by the Packers. I don't know what Tampa was thinking when they gave him the job. That is when denver really started down hill on D was when he came in.
January 24, 2009
8:28 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
[Dynamicdave writes:
TXBRONC, Denver did try the 3-4, 2 seasons ago. The players said they were "confused" so Bates went back to the 4-3.
I still say get Maualuga in the 1st. Trade up with the conditional pick that Atlanta (they are 16 in the draft) owes us and maybe a future draft pick and try to hook Raji (if he's still available). Wheel and deal. Then get Patrick Chung (Safety) in the 2nd. Still say get Peppers in the FA.]
Maybe Jeff can shed some light on this because I sure don't remember that way. I do remember hearing that players were confused by the defense but the base defense all along was 4-3.
Your scenario for the draft is cool, but if we're going try and get Maualuga with 12th pick and then pop back into the first round to get Raji will end up costing us that second round pick.
January 24, 2009
8:40 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
TXBRONC, Denver is owed a compensary pick from Atlanta. Wave it plus give them a 1st rounder or 2nd rounder off of next year. I'm sure about the 3-4. That's why they went to the 4-3. They were playing out of position, constantly, because they were confused.
January 24, 2009
9:58 p.m.
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milehi writes:
This year they tried the 3-4 but not as I rememebr under Bates. They used a 3 man line in the dime or nickle at times but not a 3-4. Bates was confused with a 4-3. It was not the players it was Bates that was confused he tried to stop the run with 7 in the box and could not stop the run with 9 and no pash rush at all.
January 24, 2009
10:02 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Very interesting column and comments. I have 3 questions. 1) How old is Collier and like piano3 writes why haven't we had him around as an advisor so our defense wouldn't have gotten to the pathetic state it's in now? 2)Does anyone know the extent of Nolan and Nunnely's knowledge of the 3-4? 3) If Balt. is thinking of letting Ray Lewis go, what does anyone feel about him coming aboard?
January 24, 2009
10:08 p.m.
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milehi writes:
Ray Lewis makes everyone around him better ,will he be worth the money you will have to pay???? I can't answer that. He is a leader for sure and that is something this team has not had after Al Wilson was not on the team.
January 24, 2009
10:19 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Kooiman, I believe Collier is 76. Nolan knows the 3-4 well. Don't care for Ray Lewis because of some questionable past with murders. He may be a player, but I feel he's no better, if not worse, then the Pacmans of the world as far as questionable character.
I'll have to do some more investigating into the 3-4 that Denver played. That way it solves my doubts, now. Thanks for making me 2nd guess myself, ha, ha.
January 24, 2009
10:53 p.m.
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broncosfanatic3 writes:
since everyone is making their own Defensive Lineup i'll try one too.
DE-Marcus Thomas and Ebenezer Ekuban
DT- Free Agent or Draft Pick
OLB- Free Agent or Draft Pick, or Elvis or Jarvis Moss..woodyard
ILB- DJ Williams, Spencer Larsen or Draft pick or Free agent
CB- Champ and Dre
SS- Draft Pick or maybe Woodyard.
FS-Josh Barrett
January 25, 2009
1:40 a.m.
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myshkin writes:
Bates definitively did NOT run a 3-4. in 2007 he (as another poster noted) ran a 2-gap 4-3. This system was completely new in Denver as it required the DTs to occupy blockers and cover both gaps rather than penetrate and occupy one. The team didn't have the personnel to run the defense and was frequently confused because it had run a 1-gap 4-3 for years. The switch to 2-gap was what cost Gerrard Warren his job and was an abject failure. As the year went by, Denver largely switched back to 1-gap 4-3 as Slowick more and more took over the defense.
January 25, 2009
2:09 a.m.
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Smokin writes:
iebroncofan lineup looks pretty good. I think Tim Crowder can fit in on someplace, I dunno. One thing is for sure, Elvis Dumervil at WOLB will be a beast!
January 25, 2009
2:10 a.m.
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Smokin writes:
Plus, we could trade down for Brace
January 25, 2009
8:51 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Good morning. Thanks for input on my questions. I have one more. I know it's very early to be thinking so hard on the best way to fix our defensive woes, but what can I say, I live and breath Broncos. Anyway, I want to know is who at #12 would have more impact, Raji or Maualuga? And who could turn into a better leader?
January 25, 2009
9:14 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Champ is a great player and can lead by example( especially if he takes a cut to help his chances of getting a ring), but he's not ever going to be a leader the way Al was. I'm not a fan of Lewis either, but the guy can motivate others around him like no other. That is what we need more than anything else(a.k.a. Jared Allen). I'm not sure how or where to go about getting someone who can do this for us, but no matter who we draft or move to different spots we have play with more intensity than we have recently. No, I'm not talking bang on your chest after every routine tackle. I'm talking everyone playing to Champ's level of intensity every down.
January 25, 2009
9:36 a.m.
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Broncody writes:
I don't know about Raji with personality issues. There is no doubt in my mind that Maualuga is a better leader. Laurinitis would be a solid ILB in my mind too.
I want to move down a little in the first round, 5-6 slots, and get one of the ILBs. Chung in the second. Terrance Taylor from Michigan is a stong man. Lifting champion and 300+ pounds, he may be a little short, but I believe he could hold his ground.
If the Broncos can move down in the first and pick up another third, then I wouldn't mind a first day RB too.
Where is Jerimiah Johnson from Oregan projected to go?
January 25, 2009
9:40 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Don't know anything about those two yet I'll look. I'm game for trading down a little too to gain a pick on day one.
January 25, 2009
9:59 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Johnson, 5-8 198 probably go 4-5 rd.(?) is the #8 RB on the list I found. Taylor has played NT at Michigan. 6-1 ; 314 ; 5.18 40 ; #13 DT in draft. Do you like Shonn Greene RB of Iowa?
January 25, 2009
10:08 a.m.
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jbowen43 writes:
That Orange Crush defense of Collier's from '78 was one of the best ever in the NFL.
January 25, 2009
10:16 a.m.
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milehi writes:
Look at Steve Fifita as a free agent NT. Very good in college. Bounced around in NFL but better than anyone on the roster now to play that spot. Maualuga is a very safe 1st pick and I think Denver will have to move up to get him. Raji is to big a risk that high. Look for NT in 2nd round. Maualuga is a leader and a football player.
January 25, 2009
10:36 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
This is from nfl.com
If teams with 4-3 defenses are in desperate need of a defensive tackle, they're in luck because this draft has two of the best that I've seen in a while. B.J. Raji of Boston College and Peria Jerry of Mississippi are the cream of the crop and should go high in this draft.
Raji is a classic "three-technique" player who has first-step quickness to penetrate into the backfield and disrupt an offense. He's only 6-foot-1, but he's 334 pounds and is so powerful in the lower body that he looks unblockable at times. He's putting on the same kind of show we saw last year from Sedrick Ellis (now with the Saints), but Raji is 30 pounds heavier. There are some solid guards and centers here, but Raji is having no problem beating them in one-on-one drills and in the team period of practice.
For all the excitement surrounding Raji, there might even be more for Jerry. He, too, is a powerful one-gap penetrator, perfectly suited for a 4-3 defense -- but he's a little taller (6-2) and also has teams with 3-4 defenses interested. Jerry can penetrate a gap with ease, shed a blocker and make it look like the guy in front of him never found the weight room.
For teams with 3-4 defenses, USC's Fili Moala looks like a perfect "five-technique" player. He has room for growth in his big frame (6-4, 303) and the long arms to lock up on an offensive tackle and control the line of scrimmage. He's the cousin of Haloti Ngata, who lines up at nose tackle, or five technique, for the Ravens. Moala is versatile and brings the height that teams such as the Dolphins, Browns, Patriots, Steelers and now the Packers are looking for with their defense.
3-4 outside linebacker candidates
Personnel people always must do some projecting when trying to find outside linebackers for a 3-4 defense. They spend their time wondering if an undersized defensive end can stand up and play, or if an inside linebacker from a 4-3 defense can step outside. A couple of players at the Senior Bowl have started to intrigue the people who must make those decisions.
Larry English, an undersized defensive end (6-3, 255) from Northern Illinois, had good sack production in college. He also has a good motor and is a target of 3-4 teams.
Clint Sintim played the position at Virginia and, as one scout said, "What you see is what you get. He's been well-coached but may be better suited inside than out."
USC has two guys who jumped out during Tuesday's outside linebacker blitz period. Brian Cushing played defensive end, inside linebacker, outside linebacker and even some safety in the Trojans' hybrid defense. He reminds me of Mike Vrabel and fits the bill as a ready-to-play candidate in a 3-4 defense. His teammate, Clay Mathews, is smart, gives great effort and has sound technique, but he might need more physical development.
January 25, 2009
10:38 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Like someone else said. Just draft anyone from USC.
January 25, 2009
11:25 a.m.
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milehi writes:
In the article from NFL.com Casey Hamton Pittsburg , Vince Wilfork Patriots and Kelly Gregg are the best NT in NFL they are not 6-4 more like 6-0 to 6-2. Haloti played some NT because Kelly was hurt but will move back to DE when Kelly returns.
January 25, 2009
11:26 a.m.
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Broncody writes:
I like Greene but I'm from SE Iowa and have some buddys who went to Kirkwood (Greene went there to get his GPA up). I think he is very talented, but I don't want a first day RB unless the Broncos can trade down and pick up another first day pick.
Fili Moala and Rey Maualuga I like alot. Laurinitis is Solid. I would take any of them in the first round. Chung seems like a great choice in the second round. Honestly Chung is the reason I'm not thinking about Greene, I think of him as a 2nd rounder and I want Chung more. I wouldn't be upset if they just took the best available player on the defensive side of the ball and get Johnson on day 2.
Terrence Taylor day 2 a few CBs as well. Find a good return man in there too. Thats what I want for Christmas... I mean the draft.
January 25, 2009
11:48 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Hey, you watching NFL Network? Replay of Superbowls 32 & 33.
January 25, 2009
11:55 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Broncody, What town? I live in NW Iowa. I think Greene will go end of 2nd round. Didn't Warner go to Kirkwood for awhile?
January 25, 2009
11:59 a.m.
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jsvaldez writes:
Hey anyone out here thought of Julius Peppers as FA acquisition? The Panthers will probably franchise him, but he might be worth the picks if negotiated right. He says he wants to play in a 3-4, and he's strong and athletic enough to fit Collier's profile for a DT. Just a thought...
January 25, 2009
12:04 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Peppers wants to play OLB if he goes to a team that plays 3-4. What would we have to give for picks if they franchise him?
January 25, 2009
12:09 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Broncody, as you know, I'm sold on Patrick Chung. However, I disagree that we need another RB. We Have Hillis, Torain, Alridge, Pittman, Pope, Boyd, hell, even Tatum. The secret is just keeping them healthy. Torain will be awesome if healthy. With Hillis at FB, it's a 1-2 punch.
I would love for Denver to pick up Maualuga. I can't wait to see how Denver negotiates the draft. I'm sure that no matter what Denver does, we will read the bashers and complainers saying how Denver blew it and "dah, dah, dah." They come out like noisy little cockroaches.
January 25, 2009
12:17 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
jsvaldez, yeah, we have been talking extensively about Denver picking up Peppers. I think he should be our #1 choice at FA. Others want Asomugha from Oakland. I think the DE is more pressing then a CB. Besides, Denver owes Bly 10 million this year. It wouldn't be easy to find a team willing to take that money on. Whatever the team pays him, Denver would owe Bly the difference. Who knows, maybe in the new Denver D, Bly will fare better? We can only hope. Get pressure on the front line and don't play 10 yards off the the WR. There will be a totally different type of D out there, this season. I think they will be much improved.
January 25, 2009
12:18 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
True! So true! Why they gotta be that way?
January 25, 2009
12:24 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Last comment made intended as response to the bashers and complainers DD was talking about.
January 25, 2009
12:30 p.m.
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Broncody writes:
DD I do believe that Torain has the potential to be amazing, but I don't know if he can stay healthy. Just seems like injury after injury with him and I'm not sure if he compliments Hillis, I want a burner. Alridge excites me more. I agree that our current RB core can get the job done, but if Johnson is available 4th round and the Broncos did pick up a late rounder or two by trading down then I would love to see him in Dove Valley.
Maualuga is my #1 choice but there is plenty of talent at the LB position that I think trading down doesn't hurt too bad.
I live in Burlington Kooiman
January 25, 2009
12:44 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Brocody, Burlington. I haven't been there. Been to Iowa City. Not to a game though.
January 25, 2009
12:50 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
I'm not big on a RB in the draft this year either. Unless it's in the 2nd day. DD, earlier you said Atl. owes us compensation for Elam. How do they go about figuring out the compensation picks and will we possibly get more than the one for Elam.
January 25, 2009
1:02 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Kooiman, as far as I know it would be a later round pick but I believe that Denver would have to give up a future 1st round and the compensation. Now, I'm not 100% certain about the Atlanta thing? I will have to research it from past articles as to what exactly was promised. I just remember that Atlanta owes us on Elam if certain conditions were met (which I believe were). As I said, let me research it and I'l get back to you on it. Anyways, I have a class to teach at 1pm. Have to run. Talk to you guys later on. Be cool, Broncos world.
January 25, 2009
1:07 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Broncody, forgot to get back to you on the RB's, sorry. They said Torain reminds them of TD. That is saying a lot. I will trust their judgement. If what they say is true, I'm sold. Alridge is fast, but smaller. Torain is 225. Alridge is only 185. Wear down the D with Hillis and Torain, then throw Alridge in there to burn the team on the outside on screens and off tackle runs.
January 25, 2009
1:17 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Brocody, A trade down is definately the answer if you want Maualuga, Moala, and Chung. Hope you have a good Christmas...I mean draft. Later.
January 25, 2009
1:47 p.m.
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Broncody writes:
Kooiman, I know I probably can't have both players from USC. Moala, Maualuga, or Laurinitis in the first after a trade down would be optimal for me. Chung in the second.
DD I want Torain to be like TD but I just reviewed his college production. He is very good but his injuries are the things that jump out.
2008- injured in camp then in a game
2007- missed final six games
2006- good year stayed healthy
2005-missed 4 games
I just don't know if he can play in 16 games a season. I think he should get a shot, without a doubt he has skills. I just want a back-up plan.
January 25, 2009
1:48 p.m.
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Brain writes:
Atlanta also owes us for a 7th rounder for Foxworth or a 6th round if they re-sign him. I imagine that Elam will only get us a 7th at best; and thats fine.
After watching the SR Bowl Raji was not very dominate at all; I was wondering if the S and N practice each other during the week or against themselves? The S seemed to have better OL players than the N did. Peria Jerry looked like the best DT playing last night; he is only 290lb at 6’ 1” though; in a 3-4 we really need someone in the 325-350lb range, maybe he can add bulk.
Maualuga seems to be the best pick at 12 but I think they need to trade down in the first; if we trade out of 12 for a 19,20,21 the value difference is actually 350 points which is worth around # 55; we may need to give-up our 6 round pick and our first for a #19,20,21 in the first and #19,20,21 in the second giving us 2 picks in the second and still have the # 20 in the first.
January 25, 2009
2:01 p.m.
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Broncody writes:
Tampa, Detroit and Philly are our probable trade partners then. Who would they want so bad to trade up for though...
January 25, 2009
2:13 p.m.
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scgoff writes:
Elam was a free agent, no compensation.
January 25, 2009
3:58 p.m.
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Brain writes:
Broncody; Actually I don't think Detroit will move up considering they already have the first pick, so it is only Tampa and Philly. Who they would want is a good question? Bears are at 18 and Vikings at 22 could be possibilities too.
January 25, 2009
4:27 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Detroit's pick at #20 is from Dallas. To trade with them would be our #12 for their #20 and #33 which would mean we would need to 3rd round also. We would then have the 20,33,and44 but not a 3rd rounder. Detroit may do this too. Problem is they need a MLB too!
January 25, 2009
5:20 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
scgoff, you're correct, my bad. Nothing for Elam. What I was thinking of and had me wires crossed is Foxworth. If he doesn't resign, we get a #7 pick from Atlanta. If he resigns, we get a #6. To all the guys I've been saying it was Elam, my sincere apologies. Foxworth was the pick from Atlanta.
January 25, 2009
5:28 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
So, let's assume Denver wants 2, 1st round picks. We have a #12 already. Try to get Maualuga (if available). Deal with Atlanta to give them back the 7th round pick owed (6th if they resign Foxworth) and a future 1st rounder (if willing) for their #16 pick.
January 25, 2009
5:47 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Atlanta picks 24th not 16th.
January 25, 2009
6:14 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Kooiman, gotcha. SD is 16. I was looking on sites (you know, mock drafts) and one of the sites showed Atlanta at 16. I should know better then to trust them. One mock draft had Denver at 16. I will go to an NFL site, next time to get better info. Thanks.
January 25, 2009
6:22 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Just read an article by Rodney Harrison about S.D. thinking of trading L.T. Insane!
January 25, 2009
6:49 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Kooiman, I don't think Denver needs him, do you? I think the D is more of a priority. Although, I would bet McDaniels could work wonders with him. Who's in the market for a RB? Cincinatti, maybe?
January 25, 2009
6:55 p.m.
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MRBONG writes:
you all are out of youre minds !!!!!!!!!!!!!! is this fantasy island?
January 25, 2009
7:08 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
MRBONG, this is an article from the San Diego tribune, you be the judge.
Chargers beat writer Kevin Acee believes the Chargers will offer LaDainian Tomlinson a restructured contract in the next few weeks.
That would then put the ball in Tomlinson's court, forcing him to decide if he wants to remain in San Diego at far less than the $24 million he's owed over the next three years on his current deal. His relationship with GM A.J. Smith currently on the outs, LT could reject the offer and leave the Chargers with no option but to release their franchise icon. Jan. 25 - 11:42 am et
Source: San Diego Union-Tribune
Here is yet another article that gives hints.
The San Diego Chargers appear to be bracing their fans for the possibility that LaDainian Tomlinson's brilliant eight-year run with the team could be over.
According to the team's Web site, club president Dean Spanos called the star running back Thursday to discuss reports that the Chargers might part with Tomlinson, who has been slowed by injuries the past two postseasons and will count $8.8 million against the salary cap next year.
"We talked about the situation and I just tried to explain everything that must be considered," Spanos said in a story detailing the offseason decisions the team must make. "I told him we haven't even started our discussions and won't for a while, so don't jump to any conclusions. And I told him I would call him personally to make sure he's aware of everything that's going on."
So, nobody is out of their minds, MRBONG. We may not always be right, but we like to research. Try it sometime.
January 25, 2009
7:21 p.m.
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MrWright writes:
Good old Joe C.!!! He was the original Mastermind!! I am so excited about this talk of the 3-4, it just is the right defense for todays dynamic offenses....If we can score a true NT and a ISLB we will be on our way....It is interesting putting Woodyard at saftey, I just think it might work he would be perfect for the blitz and covering the TE's...It will take some work to build but it will be well worth it!! GO Broncos!!!!
January 25, 2009
7:37 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
MrWright, yeah, Woodyard has promise. He might do well as a SS. So does Josh Barrett at FS. The NT needs to be found in the draft, I feel. MLB, as well.
January 25, 2009
7:42 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
I like the idea of experimenting with Woodyard at safety, I don't know if it would work but I think it's well worth a try.
January 25, 2009
8:42 p.m.
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BroncoBrad writes:
Scgoff and Dave,
I believe we get compensatory picks from the league for losing high profile free agents. I think we will get one for losing Elam last season, if we didn't get it already last year. I'm not sure when the distribute these. Perhaps I am wrong here.
January 25, 2009
8:52 p.m.
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BroncoBrad writes:
To all, I think I would like to see Woodyard stay at OLB in the 3-4 with D-Will on the weak side. I can see Elvis and/or Moss transitioning to ILB. Elvis would fit Collier's description above if he can make the transition. He has speed and has the ability to get off the block quickly when healthy. I think he would have had a much better year had his hand not been injured for the first half of the season.
If one or both of Elvis and Moss can make a good transition to ILB, then I say we need a good safety to pair with Barret and a solid NT in the draft. We can look for DE's in the draft and FA.
One question for everyone. Anyone think Josh Shaw could play the NT position if he bulked up a bit during the offseason? He seemed to play pretty well when he was on the field until he got hurt (Tuten still needs canned!). Since he is a DT, he is used to playing in the middle. But he only played sparingly in 5 games all season. Please share your thoughts.
January 25, 2009
9:13 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
BroncoBrad, nope, nothing back for Jason. I took the time and finally researched it. Foxworth, yes, Jason, no. Jason was a FA. No hold on him.
January 25, 2009
9:28 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
BroncoBrad, no, Shaw is way to light. He would have to bulk up about 30-35 pounds. That's a lot of extra weight. It may also slow him down, too much. Go to the draft to get a NT. I'm still not sold on Moss. He's had a lot of time to play better but always got beat by better talent. Would he play better in a different position? Maybe, but I'm not sure McDaniels and Nolan will want to experiment?
January 25, 2009
9:30 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
BroncoBrad,
Right now Woodyard is way to small to be OLB in a 3-4 defense. I like Woodyard and I hope that Nolan can find a place for him on the defense but I don't think it will be as starting OLB, that is if we're moving to a 3-4 as base defense.
January 25, 2009
9:47 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Woodyard and Barrett could play the Safety positions. Drop about 5 pounds on Woodyard.
January 25, 2009
10:35 p.m.
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Broncody writes:
I don't really care where Woodyard lines up. I just want him on the field for at least 70% of the defensive plays.
January 26, 2009
7:52 a.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
If Denver is indeed going to a 3-4 defense then Woodyard's best best bet of getting onto the field is as safety.
January 26, 2009
8:58 a.m.
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kmeissner writes:
Interesting article. It sounds like none of the linemen from last year will be able to handle the 3-4 though. Overhaul time?
GO BRONCOS!
January 26, 2009
10:13 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
You are correct kmeissner all of our linemen are not suited for 3-4 which would mean a major overhaul via draft or FA. Most important part in this overhaul is the line. Almost all the DE's in the draft are lighter and projected as possible OLB's. We have that. Anyway, my point is we need Haynesworth. I know he will cost alot, but it would be worth it. Please Bowlen! Get a stud DE with a high motor. We need sacks!
January 26, 2009
10:30 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Suggs would do too.
January 26, 2009
11:12 a.m.
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scgoff writes:
I speculate the Broncos will not get a compensatory pick for Elam. First, Broncos signed many more free agents then released. Secondly, monetarily (part of the value process) Elam was a low cost player. If by chance there was a compensatory pick it would surely be in the final rounds.
January 26, 2009
12:24 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
Kmeissner,
It really depends on whether McDaniels and Nolan think that any of our defensive linemen can make the transition. None of them are nose tackles, however there maybe a couple of them that could transition to defensive end in 3-4 alignment.
January 26, 2009
12:41 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
You're pobably sick of my opinion, but I've been reseaching the roster, the article and comments made by others and the main thing I came up with is we have absolutly no one who can play NT. Also some of our linemen are to light to play in a 3-4 defense. On top of that, some of our LB's are to light. Depending on contracts(who can be cut, traded, or moved to another posistion) we are in for a major overhaul. With alot of luck it will work out. Go Broncos
January 26, 2009
12:45 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
scgoff, I had previously posted that Denver would get a compensatory pick for Elam. I was wrong. Denver gets nothing for him. He was a FA. He could go wherever he wanted. Atlanta offered him more money. Denver gets squat. Denver does, however, get a 7th round pick for Foxworth if he doesn't resign with Atlanta. If he does resign, Denver gets a 6th.
As far as a nose tackle, does Denver want to spend the money that it will cost, or go through the draft? Also, I'm not sold on picking up Haynesworth, either. He has anger management issues. I say if Peppers leaves, pick him up as a DE. Get a NT through the draft. So many decisions. McDaniels and Goodman have their work cut out for them.
January 26, 2009
12:56 p.m.
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buffoklag writes:
One of the best articles I have ever read in the Denver sports press! It actually told me plenty of stuff I didn't know and went to a real font of knowledge for the info. BTW I was lucky enough to cover the Broncos for the Colorado Daily in the days Ruben Carter manned the middle for Collier and Red Miller. What a great guy! He actually showed me his tackle shedding techniques - demonstrating them on me! Lyle Alzado was really personable too. Please - more nuts & bolts articles like this with great sources as opposed to opinion & prediction pieces any of us could write. I want to know what Brandon Marshall thinks about while he's waiting for the snap. I want to know what linebackers fear when Sproles has the ball. And so on. Bring it on.
January 26, 2009
1:28 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
I feel NT is primary. If we do not get a FA(when does that open by the way), then it must be addressed 1st thing in the draft. We can't wait till the later rounds. It has to be like last year with the OT. Take best available. If Raji is gone, take Jerry. There are alot of LB's we could take in the 2nd. Also, for all convinced Wooyard can play safety. How come you don't think Boss should switch to safety? He's about the same weight.
January 26, 2009
1:30 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Woodyard, sorry.
January 26, 2009
3:35 p.m.
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Colorado4ever writes:
WOW, a lot to digest here, mostly very good observations and ideas. All I tell myself with what the Broncs are doing is that they can not be worse on D than they were last year, even if they TRIED TO BE! I got sick watching some of those games, even ones they won...
SE7EN is the first person besides myself that I've heard referring to having Champ play safety. He and Barrett could be a great tandem and I can't help noticing Ed Reed of the Ravens has almost the same physical stature at 6' and 200lbs. That would allow Bailey to play center fielder and get to BOTH sides of the ball. Not sure Bailey wants to do that though...
What a job of evaluating and assembling that the new coaches have in front of them, it will be INTERESTING to watch, whatever they do.
January 26, 2009
3:49 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
I think I still would rather have Bailey play corner. I'm sure he would excel and being a safety Champ is still simply one of best cover corners in the League. If we can generate a better pass rush with new defense then Champ and everyone else in that secondary will be tough to contend with in pass coverage.
January 26, 2009
4:05 p.m.
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IanR25 writes:
just an idea. isnt chris canty from the cowboys a free agent? if so why not pick him up?
January 26, 2009
6:06 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
IanR25, Chris Canty hasn't exactly been "lighting up the Qb's" in sacks? He has 10 sacks in a 4 year career at Dallas. Not exactly impressive. Julious Peppers averages 1 a game. Go for Peppers.
January 26, 2009
7:43 p.m.
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scgoff writes:
Champ should stay at corner. However, if it is not worth releasing Bly due to dead money (I don't know what that figure would be) move him to free safety, position might utilize his skill set better. Read and cut to the ball. He is a lightweight and short but has vertical. He should not be used as run support for obvious reasons. Just an off the wall idea.
January 26, 2009
8:13 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
Maybe a position change would help Bly but I'm kind of doubtful about that.
January 27, 2009
5 a.m.
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BroncoBrad writes:
Hey guys, thanks for the replies in regards to my previous comments. I love coming in here. Everyone (for the most part) seems to know what they are talking about and most of us seem to be somewhat in agreement with who should stay and who should go. It is pretty clear that us regulars in here watch our beloved Broncos religiously. It is great to see such dedication to our team. I just hope our new coaching staff takes as much interest in making the team better as we do discussing it.
In regards to Champ switching to safety, I can see him doing that in about 4 years when he gets in the later stages of his career as he starts to lose a step or two. I would love to have him playing safety at that point. He might not be the hard hitting safety I would love to see, but he plays aggressively and would probably get a lot more INT's.
January 27, 2009
8:47 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Hey! Glad to see you guys are still here. You're right BroncoBrad, it is pretty cool being able to come here to dicuss our beloved team with others. I was thinking, maybe they don't switch to the 3-4 this year. I know it's not my call, but it just seems like it will be to much. We would have at least 2 rookies starting and at least 2 current players changing positions. As Colorado4ever says, we can't field a worse defense than we have the past couple years. According to Collier a 3-4 defense is only actually in a 3-4 1/3 of the time. If we stuck with the 4-3 for another year, our draft picks and who we look for in FA would not change, but we would have 2 years worth of trying to get the right personal to make the switch. I know I'm just getting a little overwhelmed with all the changes we will have to make, but now you're talking about moving Champ, who I thought was the only cornerstone we had!
January 27, 2009
9:04 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
As far as I'm concerned we don't have any CB other than Champ. I know we're probably stuck with Bly 'cause no one else will take him off our hands. Bell wasn't the answer, although he did alright in a pinch. Paymah's not very good. I don't know much about Moulton or Williams yet, other than Williams had a good pre-season game. I think we may need to draft one. Alphonso or Sean Smith maybe, if they fall to the 3rd.
January 27, 2009
9:45 a.m.
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GJrodburner writes:
Kooiman don't be overwhelmed by the eventual prospects of the 34. I for one would love for the Broncos to do what baseball does with its retired vet coaches and players...they bring only the most valued of those brains back for spring ball and let the soon to be sent down, younger-not ready yet kid, or the less likely to play vet get some of that immense baseball knowledge into their system. Why shouldn't football do the same thing?
I could see the grumbling about how the game has passed Joe Collier by, but from the perspective of the article, it hasn't. Why not mine this great and venerable man's inate qualities in regards to the 34 and see how that could translate to the team's transition to this defense for this upcoming season, not two years down the road? Joe would know his place with the team as a special consultant on defense to Mike Nolan; and if what I have gleaned from the print media and the N.F.L. website and network is any indication, Mike Nolan might be in a position to see Joe Collier less as a pain in the rear, and more like his father Richard Nolan...intelligent, articulate, and passionate about football. Joe would and could lend a tremendous hand to this team. Granted, that's based upon this article and not his current health or desire to work, but I always felt that of all the brain-dead moves Dan Reeves ever made, firing Joe Collier was as big of a mistake as he ever made as a head coach.
For all of you out there that can't appreciate Joe Collier as a DC, get your hands on anything that has to do with the Broncos first winning season, and it ain't the '77 team! We had an old qb acquired from the St. Louis Cardinals named Charlie Johnson at the helm. We also had a defense that season which was the foundation of all that came to light in 1977, thanks to Joe Collier. That team understood everything that was 34 and written about in the article by Legwold as quoted from Joe Collier. It's just a thought Kooiman, but I'd hasten to guess that the staff is as concerned as you are about bringing in even a "hybrid" 34. If this team wants to pull the bones out of the dirt and resurect what once was, why not ask the original architect for some invaluable insight in re-building it again?
January 27, 2009
9:53 a.m.
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scgoff writes:
I don't know if you are getting Bell and Williams confused. Bell showed promise as a rookie. Signed week 8 started (week 11 to 15) 5 games due to Champ's injury. In those five weeks he had 26 solo tackles and 4 passes defended. Mind you had had been practicing with the Broncos for only a couple of weeks. Williams rotated in all year and had 13 tackles. Bell walked in off the street and earned the position over Williams. Given a chance to go through the off season, Bell might be a serviceable starter in the NFL.
January 27, 2009
10:42 a.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
GJrodburner, I agree. If Belichick can learn and listen, I don't see why Nolan would mind.
January 27, 2009
11:07 a.m.
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GJrodburner writes:
Kooiman I'd stated that Charlie Johnson was acquired from the St. Louis Cardinals, and that was not correct. We got Charlie from the Houston Oilers. He played in Houston during the '70 and '71 seasons. If memory serves me better, we got Charlie for the '72 season, but Johnson's '73 season was our first winning season in the N.F.L. (we had a 7-7 season in the A.F.L. in '62), and it was by far his best stats season as a Bronco QB. Nonetheless, that was the beginning of what finally morphed into the '77 OrangeCrush Defense. It was a fantastic defense, out of the 34-scheme! It could pound, it could persue, and it could harass all day. What Joe Collier had in '77 was an end product, the DNA was cast in '73.
January 27, 2009
12:14 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
GJrodburner, my only concern about bringing in Collier is that the man is 76 years old. I'm sure he doesn't want to spend long hours as a consultant to anyone. At 76, your body needs more rest.
January 27, 2009
1:11 p.m.
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Miss_Sin_Link writes:
Wow, don't check in for a few days, and look at all the posts...
Where to begin? How 'bout the guy the article was written about? Gotta tip the cap Joe Collier. A true innovator and legend of the game.
His defenses were always known as "bend-but-don't-break" units, because their scoring stats were better than their yardage stats. That was probably mostly due to having a should-be HOF'er in Randy Gradishar, whose goal-line D was some of the best ever played. Plus, Collier never had very fantastic pass-defense secondaries; Dennis Smith was mostly a big-time run-hitter and TE blaster, but except for Louis Wright (another underrated legend), Broncos' corners in that era were always a little suspect.
According to The Sports Guys on KKFN, who were around when Collier was axed, the main reason was not so much the 55-10 loss to SF in the SB, it was because Collier had become almost as autonomous a coach as Reeves was. The defense and offense almost never even occupied the same part of the facility, Collier called all the shots on D, and Reeves wanted more inter-unit communication and more overall control of the team. The blowout in the SB gave him a rationale to gain more control that would fly with ownership and fans, and Collier was history.
Not sure why Joe never got hired by other teams at that point, though, given his great reputation and record...
As for bringing him in as an advisor to Nolan, I gotta agree with DynamicDave that at 76, that's asking a lot of the man. Plus, it's not at all clear to me that the brand of 3-4 played these days is exactly the same as the original 3-4 Collier invented. Yes, styles are cyclical, but they're not exactly the same when they come around again. Some of those old '70s duds came back into vogue again for awhile, but that didn't include a resurgence of disco shirts...
Plus, Collier says, and as others have pointed out, just because you "play a 3-4" doesn't mean you're in that alignment every down. Overall -- and despite the Broncos' not having the right personnel at the moment for a 3-4 -- I think it's the right move in the long run.
January 27, 2009
1:55 p.m.
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GJrodburner writes:
Wasn't Wade Phillips the DC for the 'Frisco debacle of 55-10? If my mind hasn't wandered too far, Joe Collier was here in Denver only 'til '88. I remember the 'skins disaster of 42-10 at the Murph in S.D., but I don't recall Joe Collier being the DC for the 'niners clubbing.
I don't know DD if being 76 requires that much sleep yet, although I'm gaining towards having that type of knowledge every stinking year. I know that both of my parents didn't require the same amount of sleep, but did require naps. All I am saying is that Joe Collier seems to have a keen mind and it should be utilized to the fullest by this team. As I stated earlier, baseball does this during spring training in bringing back certain vets and certain coaches, and the team roster has the opportunity to glean from them those rare insights that just cannot occur once the regular season is off and running. I could see Joe Collier being used in this capacity during the camp months for the Broncs at Dove Valley. If Joe were to be asked to supplement during the season, fine, but the focus would be for him to assist Mike Nolan during camp leading up, into, and through the exhibition season. As for the regular season...? As you said, Joe C. is after all 76. I know I'd like to pick his brain apart about the 34 and I'd like to know his take on the scheme, or the hybrid-34, or whatever the hell it ends up looking like during the regular season too. If you want to know if you are running the scheme right, why not ask it straight from the horses mouth?
January 27, 2009
1:57 p.m.
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Miss_Sin_Link writes:
As for personnel acquisition...
Not big on Raji (too much of a reach at #12 overall). Better choice IMO would be either, as dgagnon313 says, getting a FA at NT for this year, or looking at Peria Jerry -- dude runs a sub-5.00 40 as a 300 lb NT. (Wow!) Or, perhaps there's another true NT that can be had in the third round. While it's true that the cornerstone of a 3-4 is the NT and you build from the inside out, this year's a bad year to try to do that (Raji's not the answer).
I concur with those folks that say Haynesworth and Ray Lewis have too many character issues. (Gotta focus on guys of character, no matter what.) Plus, Haynesworth will co$t too much.
Agree with dynamicdave: love the idea of taking Maualuga #1 and the big FA signing being Peppers, and Chung as a #2 pick might be a good possibility. Also agree with kooiman, best draft strategy when you have so many holes to fill is to take the best available player. On D only though, of course; this draft, the O is gonna get neglected (just like D got neglected last year), but ought to be fine.
(Torain may not be the long-term answer at RB -- he's always going to be injury-prone because of his upright running style. Hillis will be da man next year.)
As I'm always saying: a stud at FS is the biggest X-factor in today's game, and it'd be worth making some big-time noise there in free-agency. I'd love to see 'em make a run at Dawkins if they can.
Woodyard as an experiment at SS would be intriguing. However, I have guarded optimism with him: remember how good Ian Gold was for a few years. Same exact story, "figure out a way to get him onto the field, however you can". Then came Tampa Bay, and after he came back to Denver he was never the same. Woodyard has great _potential_, but we'll see how he plays game in and game out.
So, here's my best bet for a first-team lineup (* = new):
NT*: FA (e.g., Kendric Golston -- not big on Rocky Bernard anymore after reading about his suspension) or Peria Jerry or lower-drafted NT (Ron Brace?)
DE: Ekuban
DE: Thomas
SOLB*: Peppers (or Suggs)
WOLB: Elvis "Doom" (or who knows, try Moss and see how he does, maybe he's a monster there)
ILB*: Maualuga
ILB: DJ
CB: Champ
CB: Bly (or let Bell challenge him)
SS: Woodyard (experimental), Barrett as a backup plan
FS*: Dawkins (or Chung)
If they could also get some surprise upgrades at DE that provide some good pass rush, so much the better, but those two would probably adequate. (Robertson's probably outta here.)
Still, that's only changing 4 positions total, involving 2 or 3 big-name FA's, and 2 or 3 rookie starters. They'd also have some good depth because there're plenty of 2008 starters that would become backups (Winborn, Boss, Barrett, Fox). Do-able, I think. See, folks, this team isn't so far off from having a decent D...
January 27, 2009
2:22 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Looks good Miss_Sin_Link. We're not as far off on D as some think. However, all of us are assuming we take Rey rd.1 and he may be gone.
January 27, 2009
2:35 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Miss_Sin_Link, the thing is, Peppers is a DE. He knows the 3-4. Why pick him up and not play him at DE? Ekuban would be a back up. Elvis would play the other side. Boss Bailey (if he could stay healthy) as SOLB and Winborn could play WOLB. Maualuga as a MLB and DJ on the inside. NT is yet to be determined. S is Woodyard (alternate with Barrett) and FS would be Chung. CB stay the same. That's my lineup.
January 27, 2009
2:50 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
DD, If Rey's not there and we can't find someone to trade down with, who do we take?
January 27, 2009
3:54 p.m.
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Miss_Sin_Link writes:
dynamic, because I'd read elsewhere (can't remember where) that Peppers _wants_ to play OLB in a 3-4 so that he can be the wild man on pass rush. If he's a better personnel fit at DE, though -- by all means play him there. It'd actually make more sense to continue him as a DE, because as a OLB he'd have to have good cover skills, and does he? Plus, at 6-7, 285 he's a big-un.
I'm afraid that Elvis wouldn't be a good fit for a 3-4 DE, who needs to be a big hoss run-stopper. Same question applies there, though too, can he cover as an OLB?
January 27, 2009
4:07 p.m.
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Miss_Sin_Link writes:
Kooiman, seems like you'd use the strategy you pointed out: you'd take the next best player available in one of your positions of biggest need. Which for this D is NT, ILB, S.
So if Laurinaitis is available, him. Or maybe Peria Jerry. Or maybe you resort to Raji, but I'm betting he'd be gone by late first round.
The way most teams that employ this strategy execute their draft is for each round, they've got their top 3 or 4 choices for the next pick. As those choices disappear ahead of them, they get crossed off. If all of them are gone by the time they're on the clock, they have their Plan B list and make their top choice off that list, or look at a trade down if nothing left is worth the pick at that round. That would work really well for a team like the Broncs that have lotsa needs.
Having 9 picks is a big bonus this year. As we all know, the draft is a hit-or-miss affair, and sometimes the best guys in the long run come from later rounds. Having lots of fresh meat in training camp can only improve your odds of hitting that home run.
January 27, 2009
4:18 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
Miss_Sin_Link,
Jason Taylor made the transition from defensive end to outside linebacker with relative easy and he actually did it at much later point in his career. If I'm not mistaken he won two Defensive Player of the Year awards after the switch.
It's unknown whether Peppers would transition well to outside linebacker, but if he has the fluidity in his hips that is needed to play the position I think chances are he would transition very well to the position. Peppers is also younger than Taylor was when he made the switch to outside linebacker.
January 27, 2009
4:30 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
I like the idea of having Peppers as much as anyone, I just don't see it happening. I could be wrong.
January 27, 2009
4:47 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Personally, I believe the Broncos will go after lower profile players that have been stuck behind a star. Also, I don't think they will pursue anyone older than 30. If they do spend the big $ on FAs I hope they do it within the division so it would be a double whammy. Such as Sproles, Asomugha, or Jarrad Page(S, K.C.).
January 27, 2009
5:05 p.m.
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TXBRONC writes:
Kooiman,
I agree that its seems highly unlikely that Goodman will go out and sign Peppers. I also agree that Denver will go after lower profile players rather than the big names. That being said, the guys you mentioned getting who are in the division I don't see us getting for sure two of those guys.
But I don't think the Chargers are going to let Sproles go because he's just to valuable to their offense and return game. Also with what's going on with LT I think they will the Chargers will make every effort to get him re-signed. Asomugha while doesn't get press of Champ Bailey, I sure teams around the League know how good he is. I could honestly see Al Davis franchising the poor kid. Even if Davis doesn't I do believe someone else will give him a big pay raise. Jarrad Page I not really sure what to think about him.
January 27, 2009
5:10 p.m.
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6_is_the_new_7 writes:
Me neither. I just saw him on the FA list and know he's better than what we have.Barring Barrett.
January 27, 2009
7:13 p.m.
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buffoklag writes:
Well since we're talking about All Things Broncos, not just the 3-4, anyone else watch the Lakers Sunday? What does that have to do with the Broncos? Well they hired someone you might have heard of to tutor Andrew Bynum, who is now tearing up the league. Fella by the name of Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I really really hope John Abdul Elway comes on aboard to take Jay Cutler to the highest level. Sorry, all-star he may be, but I'm not sold he's all the way there yet mentally. Now while Cutler was way ahead of where Bynum was prior to teaming up with Kareem, a training camp with Elway could really prime him for greatness.