KRIEGER: Broncos, as Chiefs, go with what they know
By Dave Krieger, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published January 14, 2009 at 11:51 p.m.
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Photo by Barry Gutierrez / The Rocky
Broncos coach Josh McDaniels will not be in charge of football operations like his predecessor Mike Shanahan. That will continue to fall to executive Jim Goodman.
Photo by Charlie Riedel / Associated Press
Scott Pioli joined the Kansas City Chiefs as their new general manager Wednesday. Pioli will choose the players and perhaps a new coach for the Chiefs.
If you're into science experiments, the Broncos and Chiefs just started a pretty interesting one.
Talent or coaching? What makes an NFL winner?
Well, both, of course, but in what combination? Which matters more?
The Chiefs put their money on talent Wednesday, naming the top personnel man on the market, Scott Pioli, to run their football operation. Pioli will pick the coach and the players.
The Broncos put their money on coaching, naming Josh McDaniels to replace Mike Shanahan. Pat Bowlen doesn't plan to name a general manager. The existing personnel department will suffice.
The two AFC West rivals both mined the same NFL vein - the New England organization that has produced three Super Bowl champions this decade. The Chiefs chose its top talent scout. The Broncos chose its latest bright, young coaching prospect.
If you believe that talent is fundamentally what wins football games, the Chiefs' move makes more sense than the Broncos' move. In fact, you can argue the Broncos could have had them both if they had hired Pioli. With a coaching vacancy to fill, he might have gone back to his old organization to get McDaniels himself. Or he might have chosen the defensive coach many fans wanted.
After two press conferences, I'm still not sure I understand Bowlen's logic. He doesn't want to be GM, but he insisted on hiring the coach himself. I'm guessing this is because he did so well the last time, picking Shanahan. Of course, he had a much longer history with Shanahan at that point than he has with McDaniels now. And over the past decade, even Shanahan the coach couldn't overcome Shanahan the GM to get the Broncos back to the top.
But Bowlen's move was consistent with Broncos history. Over 49 years, the organization has never had a strong general manager.
They started with a man named Dean Griffing in 1960. The team went 7-20-1, and he was gone in two years. Apparently, this experience soured them on GMs forever. In 1962, they hired Jack Faulkner as both head coach and GM, a pattern they would repeat with Lou Saban in 1967 and John Ralston in 1972.
Although the titles got more creative later on, they followed this template - giving the coach authority over personnel - with Dan Reeves in 1981 and Mike Shanahan in 1995.
In other words, this is the Broncos' DNA. They have never started with a strong football guy as GM and empowered him to choose the coach and players, unless you count Fred Gehrke, the Ralston front-office deputy who ascended to GM in 1977 when owner Gerald Phipps decided Ralston was wearing too many hats. After consulting with unhappy players, Gehrke fired Ralston as coach and hired Red Miller.
Edgar Kaiser's purchase of the team in 1981 put an end to Gehrke's reign. In fact, arguably the most important personnel move in Broncos history - the trade for John Elway in 1983 - was engineered by Kaiser, the owner.
The Broncos have had GMs along the way who played important roles on the business side of the organization - Hein Poulus in the early '80s, John Beake through the late '80s and '90s - but the coaches and their cronies chose the players.
The exception came in the two-year interim between Reeves and Shanahan, when Wade Phillips was coach. Phillips was not the empire builder that Reeves and Shanahan were. So Beake brought in Bob Ferguson, a personnel man from Buffalo, to help Phillips. Ferguson never had the GM title, but he had most of the influence over personnel during this period.
A year after Shanahan arrived, Ferguson was out and Shanahan's man - Neal Dahlen - was in. Ted Sundquist succeeded Dahlen as GM under Shanahan in 2002.
Bowlen has not given McDaniels the authority over personnel he gave Shanahan, but he also has not brought in a strong GM. The existing vice president of personnel, Jim Goodman, is said to have the authority, but the face of Bowlen's franchise is again the coach.
The Chiefs have had the opposite model, a strong GM who hires the coach, and it's fair to point out they have been less successful than the Broncos over the past 20 years, although I would blame their lone GM during this period - Carl Peterson - rather than the organizational structure.
The basis of good football teams is still good players. It's possible that McDaniels and Goodman, in tandem, can do in Denver what Pioli and Bill Belichick did in New England. But certainly Pioli's resume is stronger than Goodman's at this point.
The Broncos have made some very good personnel moves on offense and some rather bad ones on defense during his tenure. How many of either derived from Shanahan's influence is impossible to say from the outside.
Our comparative experiment will not be decided quickly. It will take Pioli a while to rebuild a 2-14 team in Kansas City. It could take the Broncos a while to rebuild the league's 29th-ranked defense.
But how best to begin the process? If you could start with the league's top talent scout, I still don't understand why you wouldn't.
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January 15, 2009
2:37 a.m.
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flybys writes:
There is no question that the Kansas City Chiefs assumed the least amount of risk in using conventional thinking by hiring highly thought of Scott Pioli to be the franchise's general manager and empowering him to procure talent and decide on the head coach he believes shares his philosophies on building and winning.
Denver owner Pat Bowlen decided to resemble Dallas authoritarian and call the shots. Bowlen was obviously swayed by the talent of last season's draft class and thought "we don't need no stinkin' general manager!"
That was a mistake.
Approaching Pioli or anyone of great interest, hiring them and allowing that person to hire the coach was the most wise decision but Bowlen had the hots for what he is convinced is the next Mike Shanahan.
If he's right, and the Broncos win another Super Bowl, Bowlen will be revered in Denver and all around the league. If Pioli masterminds a Chiefs' revival and Josh McDaniels proves in over his head or the defense remains shredded cheddar then Bowlen's hubris will be spotlighted.
Interesting story line to follow, and it will be followed, especially since Kansas City is a divisional rival.
http://coloradosportsn.blogspot.com
January 15, 2009
7:06 a.m.
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DeimosJB writes:
Short version: the underlying assumption of the entire article is flawed.
Details: The underlying assumption is that the Broncos personnel people are doing a bad job. The current personnel team has only been in place for about a year, and as I recall, they did a pretty stand-up job in last year's draft. Could it be the reason Bowlen is not going after a GM is that his current personnel people are good? Admittedly, there is only 1 year of draft picks by which to measure the Broncos folks. Give them a couple more years and see if they draft well or poorly.
January 15, 2009
7:34 a.m.
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bagwan writes:
Was it the talent that Pioli picked or the way that Belichik used them that accounted for their success --- I don't know. During this run that the Pats have been on it didn't seem to matter who they had on the field. At one time didn't they have a wide receiver playing corner? Tedy Bruschi had a stroke and Seau must be in his 50's --- I'm going to vote for coaching.
January 15, 2009
7:53 a.m.
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Arkady writes:
another short version-rumor has it that Pioli was going to bring McDaniel to KC to replace Herm...don't discount that Bowlen didn't catch wind of that and not want to face the KC "pats" 2x a year...He went for the coach...Now we will get to see for ourselves, was it the coaching, the personnel, or both? If the new coach can get the offense to produce at the level of the back-to-back super bowl winning team, a lot of defensive issues become less problematic.
January 15, 2009
8:18 a.m.
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kilpatrick88 writes:
football and evaluation of talent is not rocket science. A head coach who has been involved in football their entire life is more than capable of evaluating talent.
The job of GM can not be that difficult. Upper level management wants us to think this is cerebral stuff to justify their salary. The fact is, the majority of us have jobs that require more brains. This is football, nothing more.
January 15, 2009
8:30 a.m.
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jmgswarman writes:
That was an interesting well written post but spot on comment Deimos JB.
But I don't want to hear about personnel I want to know who Denver is going to sign on defence...I think (whether or not cash flow is a problem) they need a big big signing...Does anyone think I am living in fantasy land when I suggest Julius Peppers (who will become an unrestricted free agent, is a tremendous player and has a great attitude?). I'd like to see one of Peppers or Albert Haynesworth or (and now i really am living in fantasy land) both become Denver Broncos in 2009...
The most important thing is we need a space filler...someone who occupies two linemen and creates opportunities for others. Enough of undersized speedy defenders...you need size and power in the line, on both sides of the ball. Bowlen, I implore you, spend any spare $ you have on a quality defensive leader who can become the focal point of the unit.
One other point: I have tried to get some proper feedback on this before...but does anyone know how bad Cutler's attitude really is? From what I've seen with my own eyes he really is a bit of a brat...swearing at Eddie Royal for dropping a ball early against San Diego, surly in press conferences etc...Does anyone have a genuine take on this or any info on what he is really like as a person? I am not someone who belives half the cr*p written about people who are under so much scrutiny...but I know what i see with my own eyes...He is one hell of a QB though, the best I've seen since Elway. Further comments would be appreciated.
January 15, 2009
8:42 a.m.
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chip writes:
i was hoping & expecting the Broncos to getin the mix for Pioli at first...but for all the talk about lack of a topflight personnel man the drafts of 2006 & 2008 were terrific laying the foundation for a very good young team...
now if they can do the same drafting defense....
January 15, 2009
8:48 a.m.
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bchiper writes:
The jury is still out on how well the Broncos will perform under McDaniels, but he sure has a great football foundation to work from. I think way too much credit is given GMs for selecting players. San Diego is proof a great GM selecting great players for an average coach breeds an average team. Marty did a lot more with that talent then Norv is doing. So I'd say talent needs great coaching and that is what Bowlen went after. I'm chomping at the bits to see how 1) the draft goes and 2) how McDaniels gets the existing and new talent on one page and winning games.
January 15, 2009
8:52 a.m.
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parker805 writes:
DeimosJB, spot on. in this last years rookie class, denver saw four of them land on the list of possible rookies of the year in an article i saw on espn (royal, clady, hillis, larsen) although i think larsen would have been a stretch. thats pretty impressive.
January 15, 2009
8:53 a.m.
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Mr_Ed writes:
This is an interesting point, but I don't think I'd say that this isn't so much an experiment. It's a difference in philosophy. It's not like we haven't see this debated lately. Remember what happened in SD? Their decision to keep their GM & fire their HC didn't turn out too bad. Except for the fact that they then hired a HC that can't seem to get them to the show. I think there are many roads to success (just like all roads lead to Pasadena?), but both positions are important, and if you have a huge deficit in one, you may not necessarily be able to overcome it with the other. I wish we could have hired Pioli. From the outside, it sure looks like he did a heck of a job at NE. Oh, well, I hope the Goodmans and that other guy can do a great job for us. I absolutely think that the wholesale change of coaching staff was needed. Shake things up a bit, you know. So the players are not hearing the same things like they used to. Maybe give them a sense of urgency to win, or get kicked to the curb! I doubt we'll go 16-0, but I'd settle for 11-5 or 12-4 AND a SB WIN!
January 15, 2009
9:13 a.m.
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Miss_Sin_Link writes:
You're right, kilpatrick, but maybe not in the way that you thought: evaluation of talent in the NFL isn't "rocket science". In fact, it's not a science at all, it's an art.
Time and again we see the most-heralded players fizzle and unknowns ascend to heights of achievement. That's not to say that you always take the dark horses (in fact, Shanny tended to do just that for a long while) -- it's that you do your best analytical evaluation, take into account intangibles like injury history, attitude, and background, and hope that your coaches can make them into the best they can be.
January 15, 2009
11:50 a.m.
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gahoaglund writes:
The Chiefs have ALWAYS had a strong GM in place.... And I'll tell you what, I'll take OUR track record over theirs ANY DAY!
January 15, 2009
12:49 p.m.
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broncofan722 writes:
DeimosJB you got it right! One thing to keep in mind is that the GM can't make them play. It is still up to the players to take the field and compete. If you have a HC who can game plan well, it now is up to those players to play. That has been our problem as of late. Lack of toughness and the lack of attitude to compete.
January 15, 2009
12:51 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
jmgswarman, this is my take on Cutler. Does he need to grow up some? Yes. Is his attitude as bad as people say? No. Did he yell at Eddie Royal? Yes. Did Eddie drop some crucial passes that were easy catches? Yes. People tend to forget that Cutlers job is to lead and get after the players when they mess up? Elway did it, yet when Jay does it, he gets criticized be some of the fans. What cracks me up, is that the ones who bash Jay are the same fools who get on the blog and talk smack and post negative comments 90% of the time. These are people who need to grow up, more then Jay will ever need to. He is young with less then 2 1/2 years of actual playing time. He will mature on the field and as a person, over time. But, for those who scream about he's a crybaby, a brat, etc., should look in the mirror, or better yet, look at the majority of their own posts. Talk about whining. Sheesh.
January 15, 2009
1:03 p.m.
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Tracy writes:
Both talent and coaching are critical. It's when you compile the complete package that you able to do something special. Hopefully we'll continue the trend of the last couple of years on the talent side.
If we were to pick up Haynesworth and draft that Raji kid out of BC I think we'd have one heck of a D-line. That alone might change everything on the defensive side.
January 15, 2009
1:45 p.m.
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RomBrew writes:
Nice history lesson but whats your point? The fact is we have a new coach lets let him work and see how it turns out, at this moment 2nd guessing that idiot Bowlen is pointless, I swear its the air up there that makes the broncs organization so screwy...
January 15, 2009
2:14 p.m.
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gahoaglund writes:
DD, they are also the same people that got all over Brian Griese because he didn't get on his players and show leadership or fire on the field!
January 15, 2009
3:01 p.m.
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LarryB writes:
Whether Pioli's resume is stronger than Goodman's depends on what part of the resume you are evalutating. I don't know how Goodman could have built a stronger resume than drafting as he did 2006-2008. Not to mention all the young free agent talent he brought in.
So would I rather have Pioli than Goodman? Nope.
The Broncos did not place higher priority on coaching than talent. They just couldn't improve upon Goodman, that's all.
January 15, 2009
5:01 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
gahoaglund, yeah, like I said, they find reason to whine, complain, bash, bawl, be sarcastic, arrogant, obnoxious and usually wrong. They want their cake and to eat it too. Did I miss anything??? That is their nature. They are the type who would go to a bar and pick a fight because they don't know how to shut up. They are irritants. There whole existence is negative and carries over to everything in their lives. I find it hard to fathom how they live with themselves? Me, I am upbeat, happy, optimistic, positive and I'm successful in my daily life, because of it. There are those who get on the blog who bash and talk negative about every aspect of the Broncos, yet have the nerve to call themselves a fan? Questioning decisions is one thing, but to say things like "Oh, they;ll go 4-12 this year", or "MCDaniels, Nolan, Capers, Dennison, Bates and the rest, all s*ck." is just plain idiotic, on their part. They have nothing to base it on. McDaniels is a proven winner, yet they bash him? They just hate change. Let them live in their world of depressive pain. I enjoy my way, much better. At least I don't get ulcers.
January 15, 2009
5:12 p.m.
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oc60 writes:
I like our choice to hire Head Coach first, let the Goodmans bring in the talent they've proven over the last few years their good at identifying talent, thats why we needed a coach first. Front office is just fine all that's left to do is bring Elway back as Executive V.P. Operations.
January 15, 2009
5:35 p.m.
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AKuser writes:
NE's last 3 drafts:
2008 1 1 10 10 Jerod Mayo LB Tennessee
2 2 31 62 Terrence Wheatley DB Colorado
3 3 15 78 Shawn Crable LB Michigan
4 3 31 94 Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State
5 4 30 129 Jonathan Wilhite DB Auburn
6 5 18 153 Matt Slater WR UCLA
7 6 31 197 Bo Ruud LB Nebraska
2007 1 1 24 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (FL)
2 4 28 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (FL)
3 5 34 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State
4 6 6 180 Justin Rogers LB Southern Meth
5 6 28 202 Mike Richardson DB Notre
6 6 34 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Conn
7 6 35 209 Corey Hilliard T Oklahoma State
8 7 1 211 Oscar Lua LB USC
9 7 37 247 Mike Elgin G Iowa
2006 1 1 21 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota
2 2 4 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida
3 3 22 86 Dave Thomas TE Texas
4 4 9 106 Garrett Mills TE Tulsa
5 4 21 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis
6 5 3 136 Ryan O'Callaghan G California
7 6 22 191 Jeremy Mincey DE Florida
8 6 36 205 Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame
9 6 37 206 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska
10 7 21 229 Willie Andrews DB Baylor
Goodmans 3 Bronco drafts:
2008 1 1 12 12 Ryan Clady T Boise State
2 2 11 42 Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech
3 4 9 108 Kory Lichtensteiger C Bowling Green
4 4 20 119 Jack Williams DB Kent State
5 5 4 139 Ryan Torain RB Arizona State
6 5 13 148 Carlton Powell DT Virginia Tech
7 6 17 183 Spencer Larsen LB Arizona
8 7 13 220 Joshua Barrett DB Arizona State
9 7 20 227 Peyton Hillis RB Arkansas
2007 1 1 17 17 Jarvis Moss DE Florida
2 2 24 56 Tim Crowder DE Texas
3 3 6 70 Ryan Harris T Notre Dame
4 4 22 121 Marcus Thomas DT Florida
2006 1 1 11 11 Jay Cutler QB Vanderbilt
2 2 29 61 Tony Scheffler TE Western Mich
3 4 22 119 Brandon Marshall WR Central
4 4 29 126 Elvis Dumervil DE Louisville
5 4 33 130 Domenik Hixon WR Akron
6 5 29 161 Chris Kuper G North Dakota
7 6 29 198 Greg Eslinger C Minnesota
Sorry but I'll take our lame powerless GM's track record over the golden boy.
January 15, 2009
7:17 p.m.
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yobeach writes:
C'mon y'all, think about it, it's head coaches and QBs when the cameras are rolling. It's about play calling and a Pro Bowl QB which we have. In NE, it was Bill B. and Tom Brady and Josh M. Fans don't give a darn about GM's sitting in their suites watching the games over dinner. Give me Josh M, Jay Cutler anyday over Herm and Tyler Thigpen or Damon Who-uard!!
January 15, 2009
7:56 p.m.
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pmatth40 writes:
JMG - You couldn't be farther off base. Signing a huge free agent is the last thing this team needs. Mega free agents usually cripple your salary cap and limit your ability to build depth. I would prefer the Broncos sign role players who fit the scheme. Sign two guys who are upgrades over current starters and then build through the draft. It would also be nice if they stopped signing injured players (Courtney Brown. Need I say more?).
January 15, 2009
10:21 p.m.
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OPETH72 writes:
This comparison, at least made the way this article suggests it, is pointless. Denver, KC, SD, and NE. Last I checked there were another 28 teams out there. There are 4 teams left and they all have their own methods. I am not up to date on exactly how operations run in B-more, Pitt, Philly, and Arizona these days, but I bet they all have their own unique formula to some degree. I know Holmgren had pretty much absolute power in Seattle and he has been to the big show more recently than all the teams mentioned in this article outside of NE. Myself, personally, I am still in a sort of an aftershock over the Shanny firing. I always supported him, and will continue to, wherever he goes. On the other side, the change has to be accepted. Right now, all of this is a work in progress. Let all the pieces staff-wise come together. Then we can see how free agency and the draft will go. My Shanny suport aside, I am very excited to see how this all pans out. There is a ton of potential upside to how Bowlen is going about this. Time will tell if it will get this team to the next level again. I will throw this out there: If Nolan and his defensive staff come in here and turn this defense around in any sort of quick fashion, he and some members of his staff will be sought after for a head coaching job again.
January 16, 2009
8:29 a.m.
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Deepstroke924 writes:
What do you think of the possibility of Shanahan going to KC?? That would be very interesting....
January 16, 2009
11:03 a.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Deepstroke924, anything is possible, but I think Dallas is a more realistic chance.