Court documents: Eldora gunman targeted non-Christians

Associated Press

Published January 8, 2009 at 11:30 a.m.
Updated January 8, 2009 at 11:30 a.m.

Text size

More Local News

Comments

January 8, 2009

11:42 a.m.

Suggest removal

leavemealone writes:

Oh boy.....Mental illness is alive & un-well.
January 8, 2009

11:43 a.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

the guy was obviously mentally ill.

in no way should folks fear most christians should they not share their beliefs...just as in no way should folks fear most muslims should they not share their beliefs.
January 8, 2009

11:47 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

Since when are Catholics not Christian? The guy was obviously unstable.
January 8, 2009

11:47 a.m.

Suggest removal

JluvDC writes:

I don't understand people who don't believe Catholics are Christian. Its just odd.
January 8, 2009

11:51 a.m.

Suggest removal

gonzotolkien writes:

Did this loon not realize Catholics are Christian?
January 8, 2009

11:53 a.m.

Suggest removal

ThingFish writes:

Religion is a symptom of mental illness.
January 8, 2009

11:58 a.m.

Suggest removal

freedomfighter1 writes:

Between wars around the world, abortion bombings, shootings and what not; I wonder how many people die because of something to do with religion. Religion seems dangerous. "Imagine a world with no religion."
January 8, 2009

11:59 a.m.

Suggest removal

dmat44 writes:

ThingFish, you are right on target!
January 8, 2009

12:01 p.m.

Suggest removal

CaptainObvious writes:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
--Mohandas Gandhi
January 8, 2009

12:08 p.m.

Suggest removal

pete10000ft writes:

MAybe he was looking for his friend named Christian....
January 8, 2009

12:15 p.m.

Suggest removal

ILoveChipotle writes:

CaptainObLivious - you must have a mental illness too if you think this nut is representative of Christians.
January 8, 2009

12:18 p.m.

Suggest removal

Triumph writes:

This mentally disturbed person behaved more like a heathen than a true Christian.
January 8, 2009

12:18 p.m.

Suggest removal

fifty writes:

Several possibilities exist to explain why the killer killed a Christian.

As people already mentioned, he may not have thought Catholics were Christians.

Secondly, it is obvious that the killer wanted people to share his religion as he wanted to convert people. So, his use of the word 'Christian' may have been inaccurate. In his mind he may have meant that he wanted to convert people to his religion, which may have been a specific kind of Christianity. Had the manager said "Christian", he may have stood a better chance of living. If the killer was protestant, the religious difference that came alive when the manager said "Catholic", may have upset the killer, who didn't want people to have a religion different from his.

Lastly, the killer may have been suffering from psychosis, which comes with paranoia. Paranoia is familiar for its 'bad outside' aspects, for example, "the bad outside world is after me." But there is this flip "good inside" delusional aspect, for example, "I'm Jesus Christ and I'm going to go outside in all my naked beauty and preach." The killer came into the room and took control of it by his actions and his words. He showed that he was taking over by shooting a hole in the ceiling and by stating that he was going to convert non-Christians. This gives us two possible reasons as to why the manager was killed. One is that the killer wanted to see himself as a good Christian and wanted to see others as bad. He didn't want anyone saying that he was on the same footing, a Christian. The other is that the killer presented himself as the all powerful converter person and didn't want his authority threatened, which it was when the manager of the ski area, who held a higher position in reality stepped in the room.

It is also possible that the killer would have shot anyone of any status or religion. Rage is a feature of psychosis. If a targeted person had said, "I don't have a religion and I want you to convert me," would the killer have attempted a conversion or would the killer see this person as not worthy of living. Psychotics aren't consistent in their thoughts and actions. This killer was carrying a gun, so despite his assertions, it seems that he may have been more interested in killing people than in converting them.
January 8, 2009

12:20 p.m.

Suggest removal

INC writes:

evangelicals do not believe Catholics are Christian.

Religious extremism is wrong in ANY culture. It does lead to mental instability.
January 8, 2009

12:22 p.m.

Suggest removal

TheDenverB writes:

maybe he was so nutzo he thought that since the manager said he was catholic, that he would be "saved" if shot...

there's QUITE A BIT we can speculate about this guy
January 8, 2009

12:22 p.m.

Suggest removal

Scott writes:

WOW! It only took the religion haters 23 minutes from the posting of this article to start spewing their hatred of people who practice a religion.

Now why are religion haters any better than those of us that profess a religious belief?

Scott
January 8, 2009

12:22 p.m.

Suggest removal

CaptainObvious writes:

Hey, don't get angry with me when of your "soldiers" goes FUBAR. I wish it wasn't the case, as I wish when ever one of your "soldiers" goes FUBAR. By the way, why does that happen so often, Q'Doba?

And it wasn't my quote, but clearly stated as Gandhi's words. Was he suffering from a mental illness? He must have seen enough first-hand evidence to make the statement. Does it anger you because it's true, or because someone had the nerve to say it out loud? Perchance your resentful reply to a quote I pasted says a lot more about your feelings toward your religion than you care to speak. Best of luck with that.
January 8, 2009

12:26 p.m.

Suggest removal

ThingFish writes:

"Now why are religion haters any better than those of us that profess a religious belief?"

Smarter!
January 8, 2009

12:28 p.m.

Suggest removal

flaco writes:

freefighter,
You don't have to imagine just think communism.
In fact if you really want to live without any religion you could always move to North Korea. I hear its a great place to raise kids
El Flaco
January 8, 2009

12:28 p.m.

Suggest removal

ThingFish writes:

"Now why are religion haters any better than those of us that profess a religious belief?"

Less gullible!
January 8, 2009

12:29 p.m.

Suggest removal

ThingFish writes:

"Now why are religion haters any better than those of us that profess a religious belief?"

And finally, less likely to go nuts and start shooting people!
January 8, 2009

12:33 p.m.

Suggest removal

ILoveChipotle writes:

It's official - you need to get yourself checked out Oblivious. I can clearly see it wasn't your quote - but you are the one who inappropriately quoted Ghandi on this post. I seem to remember the Columbine shootings where the killers shot several Christians. So by your reasoning you and the rest of you haters are comparable. Your ignorance baffles the mind.
January 8, 2009

12:34 p.m.

Suggest removal

ThingFish writes:

flaco,

Religion in North Korea primarily consists of Buddhism and Confucianism, and to a lesser extent, Christianity and syncretic Chondogyo.
January 8, 2009

12:34 p.m.

Suggest removal

Steph writes:

"Now why are religion haters any better than those of us that profess a religious belief?"

Because we can see through the illogical worship of a fairy story.

Once again, God and Guns have come together to cause trouble.

Can someone explain to me the appeal of guns to so many Christians? Isn't one of the Commandments "Thou Shall Not Kill?"
January 8, 2009

12:39 p.m.

Suggest removal

LockNLoad writes:

ThingFish:

You've got some serious emotional issues yourself.

Religion is not a bad thing. It is how it is basterdized by a nut job like this that gives it a bad name. Case in point: Islamo-facist terrorists.

Pitiful.

Hope you get some help.
January 8, 2009

12:41 p.m.

Suggest removal

Acemon writes:

As an atheist, this shooting incident is one of my main fears. Not only am I a target for those who want to "save" me, I can occasionally be the focus of a nut like this. I have Christian friends who think I'm either an idiot, arrogant or tool of Satan, none of which is true.

But this shooting brings up a point I've tried to make over and over: people with religious beliefs are the #1 killers in this country. It's not atheists, but people who have deeply held beliefs. Atheists don't kill Christians - it's Christians who kill Christians. Consider the church killings recently. The shooters weren't atheists or devil worshippers, nor were they Jewish or Muslims. They were all Christians.

As a final note, somebody left a little cartoon tract on my door recently. It talked about the glory of Jesus and the love and forgiveness of their messiah, but on the back it explained how Mormons and Catholics and Christian Scientists were all misguided and thus wouldn't be allowed into Heaven. Is that a Christian virtue? Even within these forums, there are people (such as LetsThink) who would cheerfully outlaw any religion other than their own and persecute people like me.

Guns don't kill people - religious nutcases kill people. Prove me wrong: provide a link to any article which pinpoints a killer as being atheist. I'd love to see it. It might even change my mind.
January 8, 2009

12:44 p.m.

Suggest removal

Triumph writes:

CaptainO
You seem to be the one who's nose is out of joint you are the one protesting way too much.
This fella behaved more like one of your atheist pals who is insane with anger towards Christians. Your buddies like Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot. Instead of quoting a heathen like Ghandi, try quoting Christ and forget about the so-called Christians that behave like you do. "Word To the Wise"
January 8, 2009

12:46 p.m.

Suggest removal

ILoveChipotle writes:

Mr. Ace King - you old card - can you please provide some data to your baseless claims that "people with religious beliefs are the #1 killers in this country"
January 8, 2009

12:46 p.m.

Suggest removal

ThingFish writes:

LockNLoad,

Your name says it all.
Keep believing your outdated mythology fool, just try not to go on any shooting sprees.
K?
January 8, 2009

1:07 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

Acemon

Athiests are a specific group. While not defined in same category as religion specifically it is often times lumped in when "bucketing" beliefs.

If you are trying to slice the pie in that manner then yes you are correct. By shear numbers you are correct. But looking in statistical reference, it is skewed to prove a baseless point. Ok you are better than the Christians. But are you better than the Buddhists? Or the Holy Rollers?

I think it would be better served to look at percentages of Non Religious people compared to groups. Example Yes Harris and Kliebold were defined as Jewish, but were they part of a Religion really or just identified. I am not religious, and quantify myself of being of no religion. But as a child my category would have been Christian.

Split the pie as you all will. I know guns are not root cause. But what you are stating and I guess I am asking...... Is Christianity or Religion in this Country root cause for violence and killing. How would we categorize using scientific methods.........
January 8, 2009

1:08 p.m.

Suggest removal

bronco writes:

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins should be mandatory reading for every middle schooler in the country. "Religion is a marvel of human gullability."
January 8, 2009

1:12 p.m.

Suggest removal

ChinaCat writes:

Athiest, Muslim, Christian, whatever .... doesn't matter.

Crazy is crazy. Add to that religious/anti-religious ferver, and an inability to empathise and you have these kinds of shootings. Not really the "fault" of religion, but it does add to the mix.
January 8, 2009

1:15 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

"While not defined in same category as religion specifically it is often times lumped in when "bucketing" beliefs."

depends on who is filling the buckets, colib.

atheism is not a religion.

it is not a "belief system".
January 8, 2009

1:25 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

Jay where did I say it was? I said it "is often times lumped in when "bucketing beliefs" I did not say it should or should not be lumped did I?

Even technical definitions sometimes but not always put Buddhism into a "religion" It is technically not as would be the same for athiests.

Athiests are defined as a group though. I am not affiliated at all with any religion. Do not support....well I support family members who are religious but not the religion. By that term I am not put into the Athiest bucket.

But I digress. It all stems back to blaming groups for something without a scientific statistical approach to look at root cause of this issue.

Personally I am not swayed or intimidated by either religious or non religious groups for violence. Too much violence out there that does not have to do with religion going on right now that should take priority in my opinion............Gangs!!!!! That brings up a question. Take 2 different blood gangs. One with a more religious background and another not so much. Which group is more violent?
January 8, 2009

1:29 p.m.

Suggest removal

MGD writes:

What religion was Pol Pot? He had some exposure to Catholic school but decided to take a different path and when he gained power, he like all good atheists, abolished all religion.

I guess he didn't kill many people though. I mean not compared to the guy in this story.
January 8, 2009

1:37 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

"It all stems back to blaming groups for something without a scientific statistical approach to look at root cause of this issue."

well...we know that millions have been killed in the name of supernatural beliefs...that's a pretty significant root cause of their deaths, no?
January 8, 2009

1:40 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

The problem with religion is the people who care too much about it...that includes non-religious people who are obsessed with being militantly anti-religion.

Things will only get better when everyone ceases to care about religion at all. That includes the people who try to legislate religion one way or another (making laws in favor of or against religious beliefs) and the people who think that nothing's more important that shouting your belief as loudly as possible in the faces of those who wouldn't believe you even if Jesus Christ was standing right beside you eating a Big Mac and drinking Red Bull.

A person's religion should not be any more important than a person's hairstyle or musical preferences. For all that other people care, it might as well be anyway.
January 8, 2009

1:45 p.m.

Suggest removal

CaptainObvious writes:

ILoveChipotle writes: "you are the one who inappropriately quoted Ghandi on this post."

No, it is totally appropriate to post such a quote on this thread for this story. It fits perfectly. That you think it's inappropriate shows how far up deNile (sic) you are!

IndigoBlue, you prove Gandhi's quote! One person disagrees with you, and you resort to name-calling and judgmental hatred. I'm buddies with Hitler? That's pretty low of you to say. You don't know me, yet you say something like that! How very un-christ-like! I couldn't have done a better job of proving the "heathen" Gandhi right if I tried, yet you do it in without a grin or a wink--you are serious in your offended state! Wow. You prove the other quote I was going to use:

"Proponents for religion are often the best arguments against religion."

And finally, bronco, I totally agree with you, but most of the people so deeply immersed in religion are not smart enough to wrap their minds around the thoughts of someone like Dawkins. That's why they are so immersed in religion.
January 8, 2009

1:45 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

Jay:

I've met, and read posts from, people who personally demonstrate that atheism can be and often is a religion. Atheists "believe" that no god exists, and many of them represent this "belief" to the same fanatical extent that even the most depraved God Nazi (i.e. Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, etc.).

Atheism is a system of beliefs, all of which revolve around the idea that God does not exist, and it defines the lives and philosophy of many people in a manner consistent with religion. In fact, the stubborn denial of this factual comparison is simply more evidence that their belief is of a religious type.
January 8, 2009

1:54 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

A further illustration of the difference:

Religious Person: "Jesus Christ is the savior."
Atheist: "You are wrong, and stupid besides. There is no Jesus Christ, or indeed any god of any kind."

vs.

Religious Person: "Jesus Christ is the savior."
Agnostic: "Good for you. I really don't care."
January 8, 2009

1:59 p.m.

Suggest removal

mytwosense writes:

Scott writes: "WOW! It only took the religion haters 23 minutes from the posting of this article to start spewing their hatred of people who practice a religion."

Kind of like how you spew your obsessive hatred of lawyers on a regular basis.
January 8, 2009

2:07 p.m.

Suggest removal

Acemon writes:

ILoveChipotle wrote:

"can you please provide some data to your baseless claims that "people with religious beliefs are the #1 killers in this country"." My claim is based on news reports (from both the left and right media) which often describes killers as being a (choose your own religion). People who appear before a judge frequently describe themselves as god-fearing and deeply religious. Prison reform groups always try to steer the wrongdoers into accepting religion as a way to a better life. As I asked before, find a news story which identifies a killer as being atheist. If you can't, then it's safe to assume most, if not all, killers had some sort of religious background or upbringing. As such, my "claim" is not baseless.

666 wrote:

"Atheism is a system of beliefs, all of which revolve around the idea that God does not exist, and it defines the lives and philosophy of many people in a manner consistent with religion." The lack of a belief does not equate a different sort of belief. We're dealing with something intangible, something for which no proof or evidence exists. Rejecting the unknown is not a "belief" in the way you define it: it's an acceptance of known, repeatable facts as being real. I look at reality and can say it's real. I consider God and see no logical reason to "believe" a mystical being exists. It's like not believing in Santa Claus. You don't believe he exists, do you? Kids do, but that doesn't mean you have to join them, and your lack of sharing their belief doesn't constitute a belief of your own because you now for certain he doesn't exist.

I stand by my contention that the majority of killers, as a percentage of the population, are those who believe in God. Find any article that proves me wrong and I'll shut my mouth. How's that for an open-minded promise?
January 8, 2009

2:10 p.m.

Suggest removal

Winthrop writes:

Would our anti-christian have wasted the guy, if he was a Gnostic?

Oh, that's right the Catholics had them all exterminated!
January 8, 2009

2:11 p.m.

Suggest removal

Grim_Reefer writes:

666: well stated.
January 8, 2009

2:14 p.m.

Suggest removal

Acemon writes:

666 wrote:

Religious Person: "Jesus Christ is the savior."
Atheist: "You are wrong, and stupid besides. There is no Jesus Christ, or indeed any god of any kind."
vs.
Religious Person: "Jesus Christ is the savior."
Agnostic: "Good for you. I really don't care."

A equal illustration would be:

Atheist: I don't believe in God.
Religious Person: You're doomed to hell for all of eternity. Accepting Christ as you savior is the only redemption.

Agnostic: I don't know if God exists or not.
Religious Person: If you don't believe, then you're uninformed, ignorant, and doomed to hell unless you accept...

or

Atheist: I don't believe in God.
Religious Fanatic: You must be stoned to death for denying and insulting God. Let us gather some wood in order for you to be burned to death for your heresy.
January 8, 2009

2:21 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

Acemon:

Like I've pointed out at length, here and previously, there's a difference between a lack of belief in God and a belief in the absence of God. That's the difference...agnostics are "unconvinced" regarding the existence of a deity, and atheists are "convinced" that no deity exists. Agnostics respond to professions of divine faith with skepticism and doubt, while atheists declare in no uncertain terms that the belief in, and worship of, a God is foolish and incorrect.

It tends to be that the most staunch atheists dislike their faction being regarded as a religion BECAUSE of their fervent belief in the absence of God. If they are a religion, they are in the same boat as those odd folks who knock on your door at 6:23 PM on a Friday evening, interrupting your dinner and offering you pamphlets that can magically bestow eternal salvation. They don't want that, so they live in denial...despite the fact that their absolute worship of the idea that God does not exists shapes every aspect of their public and private lives.

Your description ("rejecting the unknown", etc.) is more befitting an agnostic than an atheist.
January 8, 2009

2:22 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

Jay you write,

well...we know that millions have been killed in the name of supernatural beliefs...that's a pretty significant root cause of their deaths, no?

---------------------------------------

Was waiting for that Jay.................. Lumping wars and Crusades and equalling to this case are we jay? wow stay on subject as it pertains to this guy.

Or what would you suggest in solving the root cause you defined?

Any solutions?
January 8, 2009

2:24 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

666

You and I agree!

Why is it that you can get a Greeting Card in "religous" "non-religious" or 'athiest"

That is a belief system
January 8, 2009

2:25 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

"All right, no one is to stone ANYONE until I blow this whistle. Even. .. and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say Jehovah!!"

thump, thump, thwack, smack, thud, WHAM.
January 8, 2009

2:27 p.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

mytwosense, hilarious comment!
January 8, 2009

2:29 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

Man Acemon you have met some crazy arse religous thumpers I guess. Have never been around much of that........

My biggest and profound religous moments was when I found out about Catholic colleges....especially 1 in same town where I went to school......... I think I actually used the words "Thank You God" when being invited to a "school" activity. One of the wildest times I have been a part of :-)
January 8, 2009

2:30 p.m.

Suggest removal

Steph writes:

Acemon, you're absolutely right. You put it very well.
January 8, 2009

2:32 p.m.

Suggest removal

JustSayin writes:

"Religion is not a bad thing. It is how it is basterdized by a nut job[s] like this that gives it a bad name. Case in point:"
those European expatriates in the middle east since the 1940's who claim to be the chosen people?
January 8, 2009

2:32 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

Steph

You have Acemon on your side,

But I have the brand of Lucifer on mine!!!!! Go big 666
January 8, 2009

2:33 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

And for the record I should have looked up the Lucifer comment.....not sure I am technically correct....... will wait for an athiest to correct me on this heathens lack of bible lessons :-)
January 8, 2009

2:39 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

"Lumping wars and Crusades and equalling to this case are we jay? "

nope, that's a strawman argument, colib (in record time i might add)

let's review...atheism is not a belief system, despite the predictable religious right talking points.

nice try though.

refusing to believe in the easter bunny doesn't make me part of a belief system. it doesn't make me anti-bunny. it doesn't make me part of the religion of abunnites.

i don't care that you believe in the supernatural.

could care less.

that doesn't, however, mean that i'm going to refuse to acknowledge that said beliefs have been the root cause (yes, colib) of countless deaths for centuries.
January 8, 2009

2:41 p.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

666, I don't have a huge problem with what you're saying, but I think you're redefining the meaning of the words based on a selective sampling of the groups mentioned. Which is fine....people do it all the time with Republicans/Democrats.

Technically atheism is simply "without" theism. While I agree with agnostics that the existence of a god is unknowable, I do not agree that either position is equally likely. Thus I am an atheist. But I do not "believe" this in the same way that an evangelical "believes" in the existence of God. To use Bertrand Russell's analogy, I don't fervently believe there is no celestial teapot between us and the sun, but I think it a safer bet to assume there is none. An agnostic would prefer not to bet.
January 8, 2009

2:44 p.m.

Suggest removal

ILoveChipotle writes:

Wow Ace you really proved your point with a lot of hearsay and reports that you can't site.
January 8, 2009

2:45 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

COLibertarian:

The common belief is that the number 666 is representative of the Antichrist, a mythical figure that factors heavily in the Christian beliefs regarding the end of the world. Even though the oldest documents to this regard actually refer to the number 616, not 666, the more recent concept is more common. As far as Lucifer (commonly called Satan) is concerned, he wasn't even written into the Christian faith until the 3rd century. The original texts of the Bible make no reference to him, and some believe that he was written in later so that God would not be held responsible for the existence of evil.

For me, however, it represents my birthday...June 6th 1976.
January 8, 2009

2:52 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

jay back to your circle talk talking points.... In record time I might add

Again not religious. Could care less myself.........

Again would tend to agree with the centuries of deaths comment you made........... But are all of those you are lumping in due to Religion or an excuse of religion That is technically not root cause

There are valid arguments that would define Athiesm as a belief system. NOT A RELIGIOUS Belief system but a belief system. Hell there are groups, organizations and yes even Greeting cards and Athiest Grace...........

An Athiest Greeting card......when a NON-Religous Greeting is not good enough!!!!!

And it is trully out of my mind funny when I have to get Religious lessons from YOU.............. I love it when those that dont believe in the supernatural have to give us non religious types lessons........

But you are right jay......strawman.......i bet this guy really looked to the masses of religion and the centuries of killing as his plan of attack eh? Or should we look at the mental illness as something to hone in on as root cause. Maybe then we could help other young men so that this doesnt happen again?
January 8, 2009

2:52 p.m.

Suggest removal

CaptainObvious writes:

Now you know how we feel when we argue with you, ILoveChipotle!
January 8, 2009

2:54 p.m.

Suggest removal

ColoNative writes:

Thingfish:

Columbine. Or is your memory that short?

Stalin. Or is your understanding of history that limited?
January 8, 2009

2:56 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

Some dictionary definitions of:

Atheism
–noun

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
(Dictionary.com)

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
(American Heritage Dictionary)

1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.
2. Godlessness.
(Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary)

The fact that the word ends in "-ism", defining it as a distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice, helps to underscore my point. The word atheism translated from Greek to English means "godlessness" (and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way).

By comparison, agnostic translates to "absence of spiritual or mystical knowledge".
January 8, 2009

2:57 p.m.

Suggest removal

ReasonAble writes:

Whoa folks.
the term "Heathen" is used by those who believe in Asatru, a Pagan belief. It should not be used in the way it has been used here.
Not everyone believes in a Satan-like character. Violence and evil seem to be man-made to me. Sorry to break into this theological discussion with small corrections.
I hope that someone can explain the Easter Bunny (and eggs) in relation to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. There's a better topic.
Humor goes a longer way than hate and violence.
January 8, 2009

2:58 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

"There are valid arguments that would define Athiesm as a belief system. NOT A RELIGIOUS Belief system but a belief system"

no, there are arguments, but no valid ones.

just because i don't believe in the existence of honest politiicans doesn't make me part of a "belief system". understand my point here? you can't create a belief out of a refusal to believe.

i refuse to believe in particular supernatural beliefs. am i believing the power of refusal?

furthermore, i don't think you understand why you made a strawman argument, but that's for another day.
January 8, 2009

2:58 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

Bagel

Well said. I would tend to agree with all your points. But dont tell jay. this is first engagement of the year with jay and it has made my day....... he and i can agree and he still wants to debate point :-) religion gets him going...... but wait until he starts arguing about which city you live in. Even he can get you to go look at your mail to see if you are in the correct town :-)

I would add to agnostic........we dont give a sh**. about religion but we will jump in the middle and make noise :-)
January 8, 2009

3:03 p.m.

Suggest removal

Acemon writes:

ILoveChipotle - You're the one who responded to my question with a question of your own. My question came before yours - prove me wrong and I'll come over to your side.

666 - All I said was that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah... You said "atheists declare in no uncertain terms that the belief in, and worship of, a God is foolish and incorrect." I guess I'm not the stereotype of the atheist since I've never said that to anyone. I've always said, especially in these forums, that I don't mind anyone practicing their particular belief, whether it's prayer, speaking in tongues, handling snakes or making animal sacrifices. My battle is against those who try to make me follow their doctrine, or worse, try to pass laws which force me to follow their version of religion. As an example, I never denigrate LetsThink for his religious beliefs, just his attempts to lay all of the world's woes on those who don't share his outlook.

Here's a great example of Christian tolerance. A local church encouraged their faithful to picket a Planned Parenthood clinic, even though it didn't perform abortions. They said over and over that they were just practicing their 1st Amendment rights. When I picketed their church, they called the police and tried to have me arrested. I guess hypocracy can sometimes (not always) be a Christian virtue.
January 8, 2009

3:04 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

jay, I do know why you believe I made a strawman argument......we have been through this. You being a Sales guy, you phrase your sentences based upon longstanding open and closed ended questions. I understand that. You then cry foul(strawman) when people "bumrush" your sales question tactics. You have a great knack at it and no doubt very successful. But choosing your point in questioning and your defining scope to make your point is pointless to me. Solutions based vs your Sales logic. Gets us techies into trouble getting you guys out of binds all the time my friend. But hey that way we both stay employed and steady work !
January 8, 2009

3:06 p.m.

Suggest removal

CaptainObvious writes:

COLibertarian writes: "I would add to agnostic........we dont give a sh**. about religion but we will jump in the middle and make noise :-)"

Then that's me. Definitely me. COLib, it's good to see some people still smiling...
January 8, 2009

3:11 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

Captain

I have athiest friends and family and religous friends and family. Fun to get them ramped up on their talking points. Makes the holidays and reunions great reasons to drink!

Because while drinking it makes the sales pitches from both sides for my conversion more tolerable :-)
January 8, 2009

3:14 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

Yes, jay, by investing the bulk of your will and intellect in the refusal of "particular supernatural beliefs", for the purpose of defining your philosophical attitude towards the universe, you ARE believing in refusal.

It's as simple as the characteristic statement of the basic philosophy.

Atheist: "I believe there is no God."
Agnostic: "I have no reason to believe in a God."

In the public domain, atheists actively advance the concept of the absence of God, often in direct conflict with or in response to those who desire to persist in professing belief in God. Agnostics, by comparison, don't care whether there is or isn't a God, nor do they care whether anyone else believes in Him (or Her, or It, or Whatever); so long as it does not impact their way of life, the concept is moot.
January 8, 2009

3:15 p.m.

Suggest removal

c4l2a0 writes:

I laugh at both sides who are commenting in defense of, or in ridicule of, one side or another.

What are you trying to prove?

Do you think your argument has any effect on the other side?

Get over yourselves!

Why don't you discuss something worthwhile such as the mental illness problem in this state/country and what could be done about it.

NO I'M RIGHT!!!!

NO I'M RIGHT!!!!!!

NO I'M RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No you are a MORON!
January 8, 2009

3:16 p.m.

Suggest removal

c4l2a0 writes:

All of you!
January 8, 2009

3:19 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

c4

Hiya my friend.......

Now you are bringing logic to the forum. get the heII out........ :-)

To discuss why this guy did what he did is not in cards ;-)

It would mean looking at fixing this problem that could be used in the future........ But more than you are wrong .....no you are wrong...... It is about who is better :-)
January 8, 2009

3:22 p.m.

Suggest removal

666 writes:

Reg: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies, when he can't have babies?

Francis: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression!

Reg: It's symbolic of his struggle against reality...
January 8, 2009

3:27 p.m.

Suggest removal

c4l2a0 writes:

COLibertarian:

Well hello. You'll like my other comment in the OBAMA Blackberry story as well.

It's so hard to have a meaningful arguement these days.

How bout that naked skier? That was a fun discussion. I still don't think the photographer should have been fired...
January 8, 2009

3:38 p.m.

Suggest removal

HopiMedicineMan writes:

666
On that, check out the Monty Python film, Life of Brian.
January 8, 2009

3:38 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

c4, why don't you slow down there, huckleberry, and read my first post.

colib, you made a strawman argument by misrepresenting my positions. it had nothing to do with me. take some personal responbility for your mistake. there's no need to lash out at me.

"Atheist: "I believe there is no God."
Agnostic: "I have no reason to believe in a God.""

nope, 666, that's not an accurate representation, as i too, have no reason to believe in a god. i have no reason to believe in anything of a supernatural nature. it has nothing to do with me. you're projecting your need for some kind of belief system on others.

your generalizations of agnostics and atheists are just silly.

i personally know agnostics who support the position that tax dollars should be earmarked for religious displays, programs, etc of any kind.
January 8, 2009

3:40 p.m.

Suggest removal

Acemon writes:

666 - I'd like a bag of jaguars earlobes and some wrens nipple chips. I love imperialist tidbits.

To all: We might disagree and we might argue, but at least we've done so in a fairly civilized manner. There are others in these forums (and they shall go unnamed) who use bitterness and ugliness to bludgeon their opponents. Without those extremists we manage to discuss and joke and have an interesting day.

As I've said before, we need to meet for some beers or coffee and have a few laughs in person.
January 8, 2009

3:53 p.m.

Suggest removal

HankReardon writes:

God is a Bullet.
January 8, 2009

3:59 p.m.

Suggest removal

jvb writes:

Right on, Acemon; however, must allude to the subject matter: Who is a Christian? About a hundred years ago, violence broke out in public school in Philidelphia over which bible to use: Protestant or Catholic, the South invoked the same god as the North in the Civil War. Who is a Christian is determined by the particular cult one belongs. With 10,000 cults in existence, it is a problem. It is best to keep religion in church and at home and never in the tax-payer arena such as Public Schools, City Hall, Courts, Legislature, any domain where taxes support.
January 8, 2009

4:21 p.m.

Suggest removal

c4l2a0 writes:

AMEN jvb!
January 8, 2009

4:52 p.m.

Suggest removal

Amikeb1 writes:

Why is a Christian Terrorist always just mentality ill, when a muslim in this case would read "Terrorist in the Mountains!" Christians never think they have bad sheep. If this man represents Christianty, than the muslim extremists represent the Muslims...
January 8, 2009

4:59 p.m.

Suggest removal

c4l2a0 writes:

Amikeb1

True, true.

Very good point.
January 8, 2009

5:01 p.m.

Suggest removal

Acemon writes:

jvb for President! You've got my vote.
January 8, 2009

5:40 p.m.

Suggest removal

onolan writes:

This isnt the first time one faction of christianity killed somone of a diffrent one... and i also dont see what is so amazing about it, it is sad but people get shot everyday for about the same reason and nobody seems to care about any of those people???
January 9, 2009

8:52 a.m.

Suggest removal

denverrose15 writes:

An earlier post asked the question why Catholics aren't Christians... well ask a Catholic if they are a Christian and most will say, "no."... gee, you think? Because most don't know anything about the Bible or the history of the Bible and know nothing about the characters in it, except those that THEY call saints and they know nothing about what the Bible teaches, I would agree with their statement. I was born and raised a Catholic and I know many good Catholics, many good people as a result. I was raised in an orphanage and lived daily with nuns and priests and it was like living in a convent. I am no longer a Catholic but I am now a devil-stomping (through prayer), bible-believing, tongue-talking (through prayer), on-fire-for God-Christian. Hallelujah!! I am not in to attacking those that don't believe like me just telling them what I believe. If you don't want to believe me that is fine believe in God.
January 11, 2009

1:44 p.m.

Suggest removal

rg writes:

Haggard wants to be around to participate in what Christians do best including doing to those, like himself, born left-handed. Richard Grimes: Deicide.

Deicide Corner: “Who burnt heretics? Who roasted or drowned millions of 'witches'? Who built dungeons and filled them? Who brought forth cries of agony from honest men and women that rang to the tingling stars? Who burnt Bruno? Who spat filth over the graves of Paine and Voltaire? The answer is one word--CHRISTIANS.”-- G.W. Foote

Home › News › Local News

Court documents: Eldora gunman targeted non-Christians

Associated Press

Published January 8, 2009 at 11:30 a.m.Updated January 8, 2009 at 11:30 a.m.

Related Stories

More Local News

Share

Comments

Featured

Columns & Blogs

Published January 8, 2009 at 11:30 a.m.
Updated January 8, 2009 at 11:30 a.m.