South High boots Johnny Rebel, adopts griffin as mascot
By Nancy Mitchell, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published February 19, 2009 at 10:37 p.m.
New South High School logo
Old logo
Denver South High School is changing mascots after students rallied to shed the Johnny Rebel image of a Confederate soldier that has long adorned the historic school.
Instead, the mascot will be a griffin, a beast with the head and wings of an eagle and the body of a lion.
It resembles the 3.5-foot gargoyle perched on the roof above the main entrance, built with the school in 1924 as its symbolic protector.
"The times have changed and so must the mascot," South student Donovan Hilton told school board members on Thursday, after presenting them with petitions signed by hundreds of students and staff members.
"People say the times have changed, and no one thinks of it negatively," said Hilton, 16, who is president of his junior class. "But when typed into a Google search engine . . . the name is synonymous with images of the Ku Klux Klan and other images that are completely and unacceptably racist."
Hilton, who is of mixed ethnicity, was among those leading a student walkout last spring to protest the symbol of the Confederate South in the Civil War, an image inlaid in the foyer of the school across from Washington Park.
That means the school's nearly 1,400 students walk across Johnny Rebel every time they enter the building.
Nearly 70 percent of those teens are minorities.
South Principal Bill Kohut, who has been at the school for 22 years, said student concerns about the Johnny Rebel image have surfaced every year. After the spring walkout, he allowed students to hold a contest to design a new image.
Student Council members selected three from among the 25 entries and asked for their classmates to vote on the winner.
Thursday, Hilton and other students, along with Kohut, presented the new image to board members and asked for funding to cover the Johnny Rebel images on the school floor and in the auditorium. They also asked to replace the Johnny Rebel images that hang in Denver's 10 comprehensive high school gyms. Total estimated cost is $15,000.
"We cannot get rid of this racist symbol on our own," Hilton said. "We don't plan on erasing the history of South. . . . We simply feel it is time to move on."
Board members granted the request. Kohut said he hopes to complete the changes by fall.
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February 19, 2009
11:14 p.m.
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timeandagain writes:
Look at the nutty PC kids we are raising!! What a pathetic, self-loathing society liberals have created for our young and impressionable children.
February 19, 2009
11:23 p.m.
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wow writes:
Look at the socially aware and politically active kids we're raising!! It's almost as if they are rebelling against the apathy and self promotion that their parents and grandparents wallowed in for the past fourty years! It's almost as if they...what's the word? Care.
You baby boomers and your 80's children might have to look that one up.
February 19, 2009
11:30 p.m.
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ManginoTorreta writes:
This is a case where changing the mascot was entirely appropriate. Colorado was a Union-aligned state that kicked the crap out of "Johnny Rebels" when they tried to invade through New Mexico. Even taking the specious "historic tradition" argument into account, there's no cultural or historical connection to the Confederacy at all--most Confederate supporters packed up and left the territory when the war broke out.
Of course, they could have used a tricorner Revolutionary hat or a Minuteman as the symbol rather than the griffon, but whatever--at least there won't be a school celebrating the Confederates in this state anymore.
Trivia question: What does a real Rebel Yell sound like?
Answer: RETREAT!
February 19, 2009
11:31 p.m.
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wraysux writes:
Sure, and these dimwits are probably taught that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Don't you just love PC, revisionist history.
February 19, 2009
11:33 p.m.
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wraysux writes:
Union aligned state? Colorado wasn't even a state during the Civil War. What are they teaching these kids?
February 19, 2009
11:42 p.m.
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Sal writes:
If you want to call people who hate slavery "liberals" then I guess I'm a liberal. When you honor a civil war character who fought for the South, you honor what he stood for - slavery. I'm from the south, and my school recently changed from the Southern Rebels to the Southern Storm. I can promise you, it's hardly full of liberals.
February 19, 2009
11:45 p.m.
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Sal writes:
PS, the civil war was fought over whether or not the new territories in the West would be pro-slave states. Essentially it WAS fought over slavery.
February 19, 2009
11:54 p.m.
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Sal writes:
And also WRAY, Colorado territory was organized ENTIRELY because of the civil war by the union aligned states so that they could prevent the entire west from becoming slave-owning territory. Lincoln appointed the first territorial governor in 1861. So, I guess they are teaching the kids well enough.
I guess Sean Hannity doesn't have a Colorado History lesson on his blog that you could skim. I suppose you'll have to take my word for it.
February 19, 2009
11:54 p.m.
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wraysux writes:
Wrong Sal, it was fought over state rights vs. federal rights. Whether the federal government should be able to force states to do whatever. Slavery was but one of those issues under the umbrella of state rights. The VAST majority of those "Johnny Rebs" didn't own slaves and didn't care about the issue one way or the other. Most Union soldiers didn't give a rip about slavery either. Get a grip and try reading a little, huh?
February 20, 2009
12:49 a.m.
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Domino writes:
The reasons for any past war depend entirely on which side with which you now align. It could be to stop slavery, to save the union, to save states rights, to save the Southern way of life, etc. There is not one reason for the war.
In the last hundred years, the most prominent symbol of Southern pride and power has been the Ku Klux Klan, which stands for White Protestant Power. Try to understand that is what 70% or more of the South High students see when they enter the front door and see Johnny Reb.
February 20, 2009
1:38 a.m.
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jugdish writes:
Makes ZERO sense to keep the "Rebels" name. If you want the Griffin change the school mascot to the South High Griffins.
February 20, 2009
2:50 a.m.
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jrhino writes:
As a former south high rebel i am insulted. How bout something real pc for a mascot like a pet rock with a cell phone.
February 20, 2009
4:43 a.m.
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localyokal writes:
I too am a South High alumnus. The word is that students from South would be harrassed at sporting events by certain segments of the DPS student body, If the students truly understood all facets of the Confederacy, well it wouldn't have made any difference. The group of kids (one in particular) that got this movement started last year were hardly socially aware. This is not a new story. Maybe in five years the "Rebels" will become the South High Freedom Fighters.
February 20, 2009
6:14 a.m.
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Tom writes:
I understand that alumni who had (hopefully) positive memories of high school and their beloved mascot would not be supportive of this change. But the confederate soldier is unmistakably tied to the image of defending the South and its many "peculiar institutions", including slavery. In any school, particularly one with 70% minorities, this kind of change is entirely appropriate.
February 20, 2009
6:29 a.m.
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jfredmuggs writes:
One symbol that the KKK uses is the Christian cross. Are all of you ignorant people who think you know things about the South going to take the cross out of the church?
February 20, 2009
6:54 a.m.
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amicuss writes:
This issue has been ongoing for at least 30 years. It's time to change and this generation made it happen. I applaud the students involved and look forward to their leadership in the future.
February 20, 2009
7:02 a.m.
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BillK writes:
I'm glad DPS has the $15,000 to spend on this.
Remember that, Denver tax payers.
Not spent on education, spent on changing logos.
If this was really such a big issue, perhaps one of the liberal fat cats like Polis could foot the bill.
Nah, what am I thinking - not when the taxpayers can get stuck with the bill.
February 20, 2009
7:22 a.m.
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The_KIMN_Chicken writes:
So they changed the logo but the name Rebels remains the same? I agree with others, what's the point?
February 20, 2009
7:28 a.m.
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Littleboyblue writes:
Does anyone know if they still fly the confederate flag in the hallways at Smoky Hill HS?
February 20, 2009
7:45 a.m.
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bagwan writes:
Maybe they ought to change the name of the school since you all seem to agree that it was "the South" that stirred up all this trouble.
February 20, 2009
7:53 a.m.
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BroncoSmitty9173 writes:
GenB.
I can't believe how perfectly accurate your blog is. Too bad the schools don't teach the truth as you just stated. I would like your blog to be posted in every classroom. They should take the 15,000 and use it to TEACH these kids the truth about this time in our history instead of trying to change it to fit their political needs at the time.
February 20, 2009
8:03 a.m.
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DeimosJB writes:
Lived for a time in the South. Johnny Reb, the Confederate flag, and so on are all displayed in the South not because of any racism, but because of pride. The Confederacy was at its core a congealing of citizens who had finally had enough of oppressive government intervention, and who were going to stand up for what they believed. Slavery was basically a non-issue. Freedom to live without government meddling was. I can't adequately explain this to any of you in a short post, but General B does a pretty solid job.
Given the recent events and the ever-tightening grip of the government over the lives of the citizenry, it is not unthinkable to expect another similar occurrence.
February 20, 2009
8:04 a.m.
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5280FANatic writes:
wraysux writes:
Wrong Sal, it was fought over state rights vs. federal rights. Whether the federal government should be able to force states to do whatever. Slavery was but one of those issues under the umbrella of state rights. The VAST majority of those "Johnny Rebs" didn't own slaves and didn't care about the issue one way or the other. Most Union soldiers didn't give a rip about slavery either. Get a grip and try reading a little, huh?
And I suppose you think that the Iraq war was fought over WMD's too...
February 20, 2009
8:04 a.m.
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citizen509 writes:
"As there is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it, so reasonable arguments, challenges to magnanimity, and appeals to sympathy or justice, are folly when we are dealing with human crocodiles and boa-constrictors."
February 20, 2009
8:05 a.m.
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CdaLuni writes:
Hey GenB, you forget the mass exodus from the Democrat party to the Republican party once the Civil Rights Acts (all of them) were passed. So now all of these a racist Democrats changed parties and became Republicans. You guys and your revisionist history.
February 20, 2009
8:12 a.m.
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History writes:
Gen, you leaving something out in your lengthy post, the realignment of the political parties. Your partisan arguement operates under the principle of "if you are a Republican today, you would have been a Republican in 1865"
Notice that the once solid south (Democrats) is still the solid south (Republican).
February 20, 2009
8:29 a.m.
fubarcirca1985 writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
February 20, 2009
8:39 a.m.
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flyboyjoe writes:
How dare this institution deface the image of the Griffin! I am emotionally scarred! Where’s my lawyer, where’s the ACLU?!?!?!?
February 20, 2009
8:44 a.m.
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bagwan writes:
Flyboy, I disagree. I think Merv would consider it an honor.
February 20, 2009
8:48 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
PC run amok......... stupid, stupid, stupid. Let's just conveniently forget the past and forget our ancestors, for good and bad, because heaven forbid a group of students are sensitive and easily offended. Why don't they really go the full length and just come up with a mascot of a sheep and then change the name to Denver South Meek Sheep, because that's what they are.
I'm wondering when someone will rail against Notre Dame because they go by the "Fighting Irish" for a nickname and there has to be someone with Irish ancestry offended by it. In today's PC world, maybe there should be no nicknames!
February 20, 2009
8:51 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
wow writes:
"Look at the socially aware and politically active kids we're raising!! It's almost as if they are rebelling against the apathy and self promotion that their parents and grandparents wallowed in for the past fourty years! It's almost as if they...what's the word? Care.
You baby boomers and your 80's children might have to look that one up."
wow........ when children lack historical perspective, or don't receive much of an education in history to begin with (considering the education system today is failing children), they're the lesser for it. It's why baby boomers and the children of the 80's get it and kids today don't.
February 20, 2009
8:53 a.m.
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badbob writes:
Bagwan; I agree with you, maybe they should just change the name to "In Between" high school!
February 20, 2009
8:55 a.m.
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intothelens writes:
When it comes to my history -- personal or national -- I celebrate what I'm proud of and bury that which shames me.
The students are practicing their freedoms. It's their school, they walk the halls. Moving to a different school would be easier. And if the entire student body shows consensus, I say it is OK to spend $15K for their confronting the issue. It is in part a reward for thinking outside themselves as individuals and changing their world.
I am aware of the Klan's presence in this state's early forms of government. That does not mean the state should honor them with anything at all. Acknowledge it, accept responsibility for it, learn from it......but bury it.
February 20, 2009
8:59 a.m.
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KCharles writes:
"Johnny Rebel is the pseudonym of Cajun/country musician Clifford Joseph Trahan (born October 3, 1938), also known as Pee Wee Trahan. Trahan has used this pseudonym most notably on racist[1]recordings issued in the 1960s on J. D. "Jay" Miller's Reb Rebel label of Crowley, Louisiana.[1][2]
His songs frequently use the racial epithet ni***r and often voice sympathy for Jim Crow-era segregation and the Ku Klux Klan. Nearly all his songs serve as platforms for denigrating African Americans and the civil rights movement.[2]"
Im wondering if any of you Confederate apologists told this guy that the the name "johnny reb" shouldnt be used for such oppinions. OH, maybe he is an icon of Americana too.
February 20, 2009
8:59 a.m.
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HoosierGuy writes:
Guess it makes them feel better.
February 20, 2009
9:05 a.m.
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Scott writes:
Political Correctness run amuck. These kiddies' time would have better spent in the classroom or doing homework.
Scott
February 20, 2009
9:06 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
5280fan, go back and get an education. It's not as simple as you see it, or wish it to be. No wonder so many people can't understand history or don't know what to think of it. Geez, there's even some that believe the holocaust never happened.
Funny thing....... the saying "Southern Gentleman" has a meaning because people from the south are generally nicer, yet people from the northeast can be arrogant and rude. I had ancestors that fought on both sides, and died in the Civil War, and while slavery is wrong, it was far from the only issue that started the Civil War.
February 20, 2009
9:09 a.m.
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truth22 writes:
Kids in my neighborhood were bussed to South as far back as the early 70's. I/we never even thought about the Rebel flag or the soldier. For one thing they were PURPLE and WHITE not authentic replicas of the Confederate flag or uniform colors.
It was not a problem until a certain Black teacher came there (yes, I am Black) and started trying to have the flag and the soldier removed. Sad commentary on the educational system and what it has become. PC before education I guess.
February 20, 2009
9:11 a.m.
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INC writes:
Travesty!!! first it was Grant Blue Devils changed to Grant Griffins.
now to be PC and not offend delicate sensibilities, South Rebels to South Griffins?
Ignorance! The Lowly Johnny Rebel was an American soldier forgiven by Abraham Lincoln Himself. now newly punished again.
February 20, 2009
9:13 a.m.
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toocool writes:
Are we too assume that the griffin is a Confederate "rebel". Oh, the 15K should be raised by those concerned students....
February 20, 2009
9:14 a.m.
Suggest removal
KCharles writes:
Truth- You mean to tell me that you would dress up as a purple confederate soldier and wave a purple confederate flag at your high school games? And yell what? The South shall rise again? Whistle Dixie? What did you do when they played the national anthem?
February 20, 2009
9:16 a.m.
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INC writes:
OK the Griffin in the peak of South HS rooftop has a name...
if any supporter can name that griffin then they would have a seance of history.
(hint starts with a "G")
February 20, 2009
9:20 a.m.
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truth22 writes:
South was falling apart when I was there in the mid 70's! It must be uninhabital by now.
Great teachers back then. Well, except fot the one that go this "confederate ball" rolling.
February 20, 2009
9:28 a.m.
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truth22 writes:
KC, are you high? We dressed like everyone else did in street clothes! I don't even recall us having a mascot and like I said the flag wasn't a big deal. It was SCHOOL not a PLANTATION!
Btw, the SOUTH lost the war!
Watch out North VIKINGS and TJ SPARTANS, you're next!!!
Oh, then when the whiners are through with what they will call pilagers, the athiests can go after the East ANGELS!
February 20, 2009
9:29 a.m.
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INC writes:
GenBalthus,
now you know where I got my HS Diploma from...
KCharles, Yes I have!!! I played Football at South with a Johnny Rebel on My helmet some of my life long friends are Black and played Football with me.
My Letterman's jacket has a Johnny REB on it along with a Confederate battle flag...
the mascot is more than Just Johnny Reb it is Inspiration and reminder to Question Authority.
cannot have that anymore can we?
February 20, 2009
9:32 a.m.
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KCharles writes:
Gen- it just seems interesting that when a group of students challenge what has become a symbol of racism you defend the symbol. However when people use these Confederate symbols to promote racism you say nothing to defend the symbol.
What about the swastika will you defend it? Or the ss? I mean certainly WWII wasnt simply fought over the holocaust so shouldnt the German soldier be honored?
February 20, 2009
9:36 a.m.
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JluvDC writes:
I think it makes a nice change. Really its nice to have a sense of and a respect for history but its a high school mascot not a museum and a griffon is a better mascot.
February 20, 2009
9:36 a.m.
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INC writes:
truth22 I cannot agree more... What of the Native Americans to say about West Cowboys? or the peace nicks of Montbello WARriors?
Columbine is a confused school, their mascot Is the Rebels but Rebels from the revolutionary war more commonly (and less offensively) known as Patriots.
then theirs GW with their Jolly Green Giant... What of the Carnivores out there? or Lincoln Lancers... thats a sharp weapon of war? Kennedy Commanders? What of the enlisted persons representation?
February 20, 2009
9:37 a.m.
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KCharles writes:
No you cant have that INC, because its ridiculous! I dont care if you had Black friends or teamates. That fact you're walking around with a confederate flag on your jacket is your right. It speaks volumes about you, though.
February 20, 2009
9:39 a.m.
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CdaLuni writes:
Gen - what I said was not a talking point. It is also a fact. You seem to be intelligent enough to research that point. People like to point out that MLK was a Republican, but the party of then is not the party of now ( besides, he couldn't vote anyway). You know that and so do I. Names mean nothing when your talking about ideology.
February 20, 2009
9:40 a.m.
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INC writes:
KCharles,
the swastika began life as a symbol of eternal life used in decoration in Islamic countries specifically Persia.
it became a symbol of the Nazi party a few hundred years after its inception.
February 20, 2009
9:44 a.m.
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INC writes:
KCharles, and of how Ignorant and forgetful you and the PC police are...
and certain German soldiers are recognized for their patriotism and sacrifice... ever heard of operation Valkyrie?
Tom Cruse just did a movie about that very subject.
February 20, 2009
9:51 a.m.
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KCharles writes:
INC- That is my point. the swastika was not created as an offensive symbol however, it has become one. And I would challenge any of you in here to use your tired arguements to support a school that would have a swastika as a school emblem.
I dont know maybe Truth22 would gladly run around with the Nazi flag supporting his school (as long as it was purple)
And INC would proudly play with a SS on his football helmet, and a swastika on his letterjacket.
But most of us would have a problem with it.
Johnny Reb and the Confederate flag represent the same offence to many of us.
February 20, 2009
9:54 a.m.
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truth22 writes:
Jluv, it is part of the South's history, therefore a word association thing and that's all! South. Hmmmm, how about Rebels
North, how about Vikings and so on.
You and KC must be teachers in the DPS. Thank gawd, I got out of the DPS when they were still TEACHING kids not PREACHING and MOLDING their thoughts.
February 20, 2009
9:54 a.m.
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KCharles writes:
History according to Tom Cruise.... ok?
February 20, 2009
10 a.m.
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KCharles writes:
truth22- Maybe they should have printed the school books in purple ink so you might have read them.
February 20, 2009
10:01 a.m.
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JluvDC writes:
I hate to disappoint you but I'm not a teacher. I am just an average person who thinks that some school mascots are outdated and finds it annoying that some people feel the need to cling to old logos that don't affect them in any way shape or form because they think its historic. There is a place for historic things, its called a museum. Schools should be progressive. If people find a logo offensive and want to change it and the school board agrees, then what does it matter if someone who has never stepped foot in that school or hasn't attended it for 30 years thinks?
Schools should have a fun mascot that the kids like..otherwise what on earth is the point of a mascot?
February 20, 2009
10:03 a.m.
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KCharles writes:
Jluv-
well said
February 20, 2009
10:21 a.m.
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HolierThanThou writes:
"Although volume upon volume is written to prove slavery a good thing, we never hear of the man who wishes to take the good of it by being a slave himself."
--Abraham Lincoln
February 20, 2009
10:27 a.m.
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truth22 writes:
Jluv and KC, think what you want as I will do the same but the difference is that my thinking is correct.
Museum? How about tradition and the history of the school?
Griffin my foot! What are you two so worried about it for anyway?
Neither one of you went there. Treehuggers!
February 20, 2009
10:31 a.m.
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JluvDC writes:
I'm not worried about it at all, I have no vested interest in the school or DPS. I'm just commenting on a news article that I like the new mascot :)
Also, having a different opinion doesn't make yours the "correct" one....just different. Totally unrelated but that kind of attitude is why there were never be peace in the middle east, too many people who think their way of thinking is the "correct" one.
February 20, 2009
10:33 a.m.
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BoiseBroncoFan writes:
"Those of you who forget their past are condemned to repeat it!"
February 20, 2009
10:47 a.m.
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Lesh writes:
5 of the Union (Northern) states during the civil war were slave states. The emancipation proclamation specificly DID NOT free the slaves in those states.
The confederate constitution banned the importation of any new slaves.
Slavery was allready on the way out when the civil war started. It was not about slavery.
February 20, 2009
10:52 a.m.
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DougH writes:
JluvDC writes: Schools should have a fun mascot that the kids like..otherwise what on earth is the point of a mascot?
You are 100 % correct.
February 20, 2009
10:54 a.m.
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BKindel writes:
When North, South, and West High Schools were opened, they were dubbed the "Vikings," the "Rebels," and the "Cowboys," respectively. That was then; this is now. (I'm an East High School "Angel," so I'm just another bystander.)
I think a high school (hopefully with some input from decades of alumni) should have the right to update its logo and/or team name, so if South High wants to be identified by the gargoyle over its front door, so be it. (I'll stick with my angel, thank you.)
February 20, 2009
10:57 a.m.
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Lesh writes:
I agree with BKindel. They can change the mascot to whatever they want. A school I atended changed from a cobra to a cougar.
I just get very frustrated with the revisionist history.
A smart man once said, in war, the victors get to write the history books.
February 20, 2009
10:59 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
charles......... if the logo was of a person with a white hood and robe on, then your distinction would have more validity.
February 20, 2009
11:03 a.m.
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Faux_Noise writes:
General Balthus,
Since you are so concerned with facts, you might want to stop writing about the "Democrat Party." Democrat is a noun, and Democratic is an adjective. Democratic Party is a proper name, and not using it reveals bias or ignorance.
February 20, 2009
11:04 a.m.
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INC writes:
KCharles,
history is history opp Valkyrie was the plot to assassinate Hitler... (so they are not heroes?) read a bit more will ya.
Here on Colorado Civil war veterans are buried side by side. yet the PC police would dig em up and bury the Confederate soldiers closer to the river. (stupid and sign of holding grudges)
and insofar as having a problem with it or anything Is YOUR problem not mine.
Glad I still have my Historically accurate Johnny Reb T-shirts, sweats and letter jacket.
February 20, 2009
11:15 a.m.
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Lesh writes:
Lincoln on the Civil War:
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that … I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free."
-- Abraham Lincoln
February 20, 2009
11:18 a.m.
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Tizzy writes:
Its the PC world we live in now. This story reminds me of the University of Denver, just down the road, where students and alumni have been trying to reinstate the Denver Boone as their mascot instead of the half eaten donut that is supposed to be some kind of bird. Apparently one student was upset and said that the Boone was not inclusive enough??????????
www.letsgodu.blogspot.com
February 20, 2009
11:22 a.m.
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frd3275 writes:
The "Johnny Rebel" mascot never occurred to me (when I was a student) as a racist label, but I can see that possibility clearly now. I congratulate those responsible for having the courage to change South's mascot to a racially neutral figure. The inherent racism of the Confederate label is clear in some of the comments made by those who disagree with the action. I am in total agreement with the change -- Graduate of 1955.
February 20, 2009
11:38 a.m.
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INC writes:
UNLV, Old MiSS, Tennessee
all schools with confederate mascots...
I am a South High Rebel, class of 1988... yes one class that raised the funds to have Johnny Rebel enshrined in tile in the new Gym Floor.
so now to be PC (ignoring budget shortfalls) it will be covered up...
TRAVISTY!!!
February 20, 2009
11:57 a.m.
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denverrma writes:
How sad....our kids havent been taught to use their brain to figure out that its just a macot/logo...not a message to the masses. And if people take it as message, they are reading waaay too much into it and need to get a life!
February 20, 2009
12:02 p.m.
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Denver7 writes:
how about something more current, like the South High Texters? We got text messages, yes we do, we go text messages how bout you?
what does a mascot really mean? why not drop them completely so that nobody is ever offended again?
February 20, 2009
12:16 p.m.
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KCharles writes:
INC- It was 20 years ago, dude! You truly need to move on. Letterjackets dont look all that cool on a 40 year old. I know, no one will ever really underatand how great those years were for you, so surely they will never have the same reverence you have for your high school.
But, seriously, stop reciting the closing naration of "Stand By Me" long enough to wipe the tears from your eyes, close the year book and get back to work.
February 20, 2009
12:25 p.m.
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HankReardon writes:
I thought it was spelled Gryphon?
February 20, 2009
12:28 p.m.
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History writes:
Gen
I agree with you that the students of south hs would be far better served to address the falling apart physical plant of their school then to worry about their mascot.
As to your earlier challange to my post. Yes you were stating facts, but your conclusion I think were incorrect, or at least you omited the relevant information of political realignments. It is completely unfair to challane membership in today's Republican or Democratic parties with the parties' positions on 19th century issues. In any Poli Sci class or History class one would take into account the changing nature and positions of both political parties. A simple google search of electoral maps would demonstrate this.
Also when someone challanges your historical interpretation, that is not necassarily revisionist history. Furthermore, do not assume that "old history" is automatically correct. Once the CW was over it was the exconfederates who were the most active in writing the early history of the war, thus many southern biases have been perpetuated through history. Robert E Lee is still thought of as an American hero. Let me ask you this, what foreign military leader is responsible for killing the most US soldiers, not hitler, not Ho - Lee
February 20, 2009
12:32 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
Funny charles, you want INC to move on with something from 20 years ago yet you can't move on from something that happened 150 years ago?
February 20, 2009
12:39 p.m.
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COLibertarian writes:
History,
Forgive me if I missed anything on Gen's post regarding the factual history statements, but I it is nice(not) to see you more concerned on the party affiliations and perceptions of good and bad as it pertains to the party affiliations then and now. You did not fight the factual context, just that in your opinion he should have better developed the Party affiliation context.............
Dems good
Reps bad
Feel better?
Or Dems bad
Reps good.... for the other side of the battle........
Crimeny fighting for the name of a party affiliation rather than fighting for the person next to you regardless of affiliation.
btw I rarely see today's democrats stating that if we took Kennedy's views from his times to now, that he would be considered much more conservative than liberal...............
February 20, 2009
12:46 p.m.
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COLibertarian writes:
Cwilly
I was thinking the same thing
February 20, 2009
12:46 p.m.
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INC writes:
KCharles,
Pride in oneself knows no calendar.
go be some lame spartan, lancer, angel, viking, commander, cowboy, warrior, thunder bolt or jolly green giant for all I care.
I will still have pride in being a South Rebel.
February 20, 2009
12:48 p.m.
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INC writes:
Cwillyrun1, thank you.
February 20, 2009
12:57 p.m.
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Denver7 writes:
Why don't they change to the South High American's. Or would that offend too many people?
February 20, 2009
1:01 p.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
A more correct mascot would be the "Dropouts" or maybe the "Illiterates". I'm not trying to pick on South, that could go for most of the DPS these days.
DPS is more concerned with a non-issue like the mascot and handing out free condoms than dealing with the abysmal graduation rate.
Your tax dollars at work.
February 20, 2009
1:03 p.m.
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COLibertarian writes:
Gen
To add......there were many Officers and enlisted alike, that had fought together before the war. Many true friends before, during and after.........
February 20, 2009
1:04 p.m.
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INC writes:
GenBalthus,
do not forget that Arlington national cemetery was Robert E. Lee's estate. Named by his grand father... yet another Hero in the Revolutionary war.
Also the first place in America where Confederate and Union soldiers were buried side by side.
February 20, 2009
1:08 p.m.
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Sal writes:
A purple rebel flag is about as offensive as a purple swastika. You want to "honor" confederate soldiers who were "caught up in something" that they couldn't control? You probably also "honor" all those Nazi soldiers that were caught up in something bigger than THEY could control, too.
February 20, 2009
1:13 p.m.
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History writes:
CO Lib, I agree with you on JFK to the extent that he cut income taxes. The highest rates were killer by 1960 due to Ike's fear of a national debt. My challange to Gen was simply that he omited the political realignments that occured, primarily begining in 1964 with the passage of the CR Act and 1965 with the voting rights act. I am in no way asserting simplistic thinking as to Dems good and Reps bad, I just thought that Gen history was lacking that very important point.
Gen - I see were you are coming from and anyone, no matter who they are who believes that Republicans are inherently racist is a simpleton not worth your time.
I think you offer a very legitmate, sound point of view on Robert E Lee. With that said we must take into account that Lee was a commissioned US Army officer who refused to serve his country. Rather he chose to lead a Rebel Army, I agree brillantly up to 1863, in the death and destruction of US soldiers. You are right that Lee was no great fan of slavery but he fought for a state and a country that was, to a great extent, built and based upon the bondage of human beings. Does this make him a hero or a villan, clearly that is a stupid question. Like all historical figures he was a complex man capable of and responsible for BOTH greatness and shortcomings like many historical figures
February 20, 2009
1:16 p.m.
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History writes:
Inc Arlington National Cemetery was placed on Lee's estate as a punishment, as a forever reminder of the death and destruction of war, so that he could live the rest of his life with the view of what he had done
February 20, 2009
1:19 p.m.
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truth22 writes:
Inc, I must admit that you stated some historic facts that I wasn't aware of. Nice job setting these fascist thought police straight on here!!
February 20, 2009
1:21 p.m.
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Faux_Noise writes:
GenBalthus writes:
FauxNoise:
"When's the last time you used the term "neo-con"?
Goose and gander, bro."
Never, sis.
February 20, 2009
1:23 p.m.
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NuggetsFan2000 writes:
Has anyone read a history book. The Confederate States of America got beat down. Any mascot that promtes the ideals of taking up arms against the United States should be removed. If this Rebel was say a Minuteman then that might be acceptable. Anyone who wants to celebrate the CSA is an idiot. The CSA set this nation back at least a generation. I have no problem celebrating history, but I do have a problem celebrating the values of a failed racist rebellion. Oh and GenBalthus, Benedict Arnold was an American Hero, that was until he became a Traitor. Get a clue. Lee was a Traitor. Once you take up arms against the USA then you can no longer be called a Hero of the USA, you have to be called a traitor. The USA does not have Lee on any dollar note. That is because he was a Traitor, not a Hero. Lee is perhaps the most dissapointing of all the CSA Generals. He knew that the cause he was fighitng for was wrong, as opposed to most of the other CSA Generals who were just racist slaveholders looking to keep their property. Get a clue, anyone who fought for the CSA cannot be considered an Hero of the USA. That is like saying that Tim McVeigh is a Hero, he fought for the USA in the Gulf War. Oh yeah, he is not a hero, he killed hundred of Americans. Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine, before he shot the President. Lets get this straight. Anrold, Traitor. McVeigh, Traitor. Oswald, Traitor. Robert E Lee, Traitor. We should celebrate real Heroes not Traitors.
peace
February 20, 2009
1:30 p.m.
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Lesh writes:
NuggetsFan2000, I guess that means that George Washington is the only American hero, as he is the only one on a dollar note.
I see that you buy the CSA as a racist cause, but people who take an honest look at history dont.
Slavery was an outrage against humanity, but it existed in the Union and the CSA.
February 20, 2009
1:31 p.m.
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Lesh writes:
NuggetsFan2000, don't forget the USA wasn't founded by American heros, it was founded by English traitors. The victors write the history books.
February 20, 2009
1:34 p.m.
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INC writes:
History,
true and the confederates had to bury their dead there at Arlington under the cover of darkness.
Here in Colorado Both Union and Confederate soldiers are buried side by side (out at riverside) under the same statue (just like the one in front of the capitol) that depicts a simple CW soldier. Inference is made but not depicted as to what army that soldier belonged to.
this whole affair makes me think that East with its mascot as an Angel with the colors red and white clearly denotes East as supporting the Hells Angels.
(same stupid logic)
February 20, 2009
1:35 p.m.
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HankReardon writes:
WOLVERINES!
February 20, 2009
1:39 p.m.
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History writes:
Lesh, " The victors write the history books"
Generally you are right, but not with regards to the CW. It was former CSA officers who, under the banner of the "Lost Cause." Heavily influenced the early histories of the CW, it was Gen Early I believe, or perhaps Heath (I get those 2 confused) who dedicated their life after the CW to writing history, albiet with a decidedly pro southern slant
February 20, 2009
1:46 p.m.
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INC writes:
HankReardon
Wolverines still would be better than Girdie the Gargoyle. Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.
February 20, 2009
1:48 p.m.
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truth22 writes:
Nuggetsfan, get of of your highhorse and get over yourself as well, blowhard! I stated that the South lost this morning. Try reading before making yourself look like a "bumpkin!"
If you talk as long as your novel like posts are here then you MUST need oxygen!
South High Rebels Forever!!!!!!!!!!!
February 20, 2009
2:20 p.m.
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HankReardon writes:
Anytime INC,
My HS mascot was a Crusader. I'd much rather have a Rebel anyday. You know, the Confederacy didn't coin that word. The Revolutionary War was fought by rebels as well. It was a Rebellion, no? The word 'rebel' has been around longer than our country, that's for sure.
P.S. I also like the Bowie song "Rebel Rebel".
February 20, 2009
2:27 p.m.
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NuggetsFan2000 writes:
Lesh you don’t know what you are talking about. Clearly you want to discount the racist ideals that the CSA promoted. From a historical stand point there were many causes that the CSA fought for, including a racist one. Yes there were slaves in all of the United States and there are racist still. I think that you will find some history book written about the American Revolution that were not written by those who fought and won that war. I guess that I missed the book that Washington wrote about the American Revolution. Lesh would like to assume that there is only one side to the story that is ever told. You obviously do not have any appreciation for Historiography. Lesh, do you mean that all those American Heroes that were really English Traitors were born in England? Oh yeah, most of them were born in North America. I guess Lesh would call Gandhi a British Traitor along with anyone else who was arbitrarily considered English and did not want to be considered so. There are many American Heroes that had feet of clay, and through historical consideration there flaws should be acknowledged. Anyone who thinks that Lee should still be considered an American hero has a brain of clay. Truth22 thanks for calling me a “bumpkin”, coming from someone who thinks that the rebel mascot should be kept I will take that as a compliment. What about criticism of the Columbine Rebels mascot. Oh yeah, their mascot is in reference to the rebellion we call the American Revolution. As an American, in America, I think that the Hisotry of American should have something to do with how we celebrate our history. At the same time we should celebrate people who fought for the USA and not against it. Can I get some oxygen here?
I’m Out
Peace
February 20, 2009
2:45 p.m.
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Lesh writes:
No, they were not born in England, they were British subjects, born in British colonies, in the land which WOULD LATER BECOME the USA.
Its like the Columbus thing. Columbus was never in the United States, or in any of the land which WOULD LATER BECOME the USA.
And yes, I think in the classrooms in Americas public schools, only one side of this story is taught, the policaly correct side.
February 20, 2009
2:48 p.m.
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INC writes:
HankReardon,
you went to DC!. hello friendly rival...
February 20, 2009
2:53 p.m.
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truth22 writes:
Okay Nuggetfan, you're not a bumpkin you're my "brethren". How's that?
February 20, 2009
3:04 p.m.
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INC writes:
NuggetsFan2000,
A huge part of the American Civil War that is forgotten is still fought even today. that is the argument of States Rights v. Federal Rights
as well as differing viewpoints of economic Base. one had become industrialized the other had slavery.
North and South was a fight of brother against brother.
Lincoln Himself when confronted with what to do to punish southern soldiers, chose to not do so. as He knew that to punish the common soldier would prolong the fight for generations.
Attempting to link a common (mostly illiterate) southern soldier to the politics of the time is nothing more than attempting to forget real history.
The Gettysburg address did not differentiate between Union and Southern soldiers. It in fact Honored the sacrifice of BOTH. Thus made Gettysburg Hallowed ground Of and for all of the United States.
changing South HS mascot, is yet another attempt to punish those that fought and died for what they believed in. North AND South.
February 20, 2009
3:09 p.m.
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Lesh writes:
Unfortunatly the States Rights v. Federal Rights issue was decided by the Civil War.
The constitution talks about the rights people and the powers of the states, but the states have no powers anymore. It was all usurped by the federal government.
February 20, 2009
3:21 p.m.
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HankReardon writes:
INC,
I went to HS in another state of the Union. Our rivals were the Knights.
February 20, 2009
3:45 p.m.
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NuggetsFan2000 writes:
Okay Truth22
INC the people you say are being punished, just like Jefferson Davis was punished, just like the German people were punished after WWI and WWII. When you get beat down you get Punished. Unless you are a INC, then you get a government bailout and get the chance to waste even more money. Seriously, there should be a ban on all public buildings being named after people who took up arms against the USA after first being a citizen of the USA. Simple put I want a ban on Public Buildings being named after traitors. I have no problem promoting history, and a resonable examination of both the souther states and the northern states. If public buildings need only be named after a historical event or person then we can at least think of other Historical figures who promote ideals other than the CSA's ideals to promote. How about John Elway high School. You might not agree with his politics but at least he never became a traitor. yet.
Peace
February 20, 2009
3:47 p.m.
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DisplacedColoradoan writes:
The argument that the Civil War was fought because of states rights/nullification versus a centralized federal government is a complete red herring. States rights was then and is now a euphemism for slavery. The Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens said as much in a speech before the war. Look it up.
The South Carolina nullification crisis of 1833 and the arguments put forth regarding states rights were proxy fights about slavery. The South was desperately concerned that a strong centralized federal government would eventually outlaw slavery and emancipate the slaves. They chose the issue of the Tariff to advance the idea that any state in the Union could theoretically nullify any Federal law within its borders, precisely because of the increasingly vocal Abolition movement and laws in Northern states emancipating fugitive slaves.
President Andrew Jackson (a Tennessean and slaveowner) was able to avert Civil War in 1833, in spite of the fact that his interpretation of the Vesting Clause would make George W. Bush blush, by reducing tariff rates while at the same time taking strong vocal stances on fugitive slave laws. He even issued a writ to pay a premium to someone to catch and subsequently flog one of his runaway slaves based on the number of lashes they could deliver before returning his slave.
Had he been from anywhere outside the South and a non-slaveowner the Civil War probably would have started in 1833 and the Union probably would not have survived.
February 20, 2009
3:55 p.m.
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NuggetsFan2000 writes:
INC, I did not know that "common (mostly illiterate) southern soldier's" were the only people that were Rebels. If that is the case then Yes, the Mascot of the Rebels must be banned from public schools. Those are clearly not ideals that we should promote at school.
Peace
February 20, 2009
4:33 p.m.
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INC writes:
the rest of the pawns in the civil war were illiterate also...
hind sight is 2 0/20 not all knew as we do it was about slavery.
If Johnny Rebel is offensive why not add Yankee...
"Yankee/Rebels"
as the common soldier of the north (Yankee) was illiterate as the Rebels, and merely a pawn. who was no less endowed with as much valor as the Rebels.
the slaves were also Illiterate. The Public's General Illiteracy rate was a prouduct of the times.
Public School was a new(er) Idea in the 1860's.
the image of the Griffin is just offensive to me.
Her name is Girdy!!!
South Rebel Pride!!!
February 20, 2009
4:35 p.m.
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Lesh writes:
DisplacedColoradoan,
so if I think a state should have the ability to do something, lets just take gay marriage for example, without federal government intervention, thats a "euphemism for slavery"?
February 20, 2009
4:40 p.m.
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commoncents writes:
Maybe the kids just got tired of being associated with the losers of a war. Maybe times just change and mascots change. But it only happened because the kids had the desire to see it change and somehow seems like a good lesson in how democracy works, or is supposed to work. I think they could have come up with something better than a griffin though.
February 20, 2009
4:51 p.m.
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INC writes:
Johnny Reb is the common Valorous foot soldier, never giving up.
a Griffin is a fantasy.
February 20, 2009
9:03 p.m.
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DisplacedColoradoan writes:
@Lesh
Your analogy, like all of the other arguments you've made on this thread, is horrible.
Massachusetts, or any other state recognizing gay marriage is not nullifying any federal law. It might be news to you, but Marilyn Moosecow didn't get the Federal Marriage Amendment through and there is no federal law defining marriage as between one man and one woman. The states are free to define marriage as their legislatures, courts, and executives see fit, provided it doesn't violate any of the enumerated rights set for in the BoR and its amendments. The Defense of Marriage Act of 1996 makes it clear that other states don't have to recognize those marriages if they would violate the laws within that state.
But to answer your question, yes, if it was your position that states were free to nullify Federal laws within their borders, you would be riding on the coattails of an argument that was originally made with the institution of slavery in mind.
February 20, 2009
10:58 p.m.
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Lesh writes:
Displaced,
Bill Clintons defense of marriage act stipulates that individual states do not need to recognize gay marriages from another state. Obama says that he will repeal this.
You also said that "states were free to nullify Federal laws within their borders, you would be riding on the coattails of an argument that was originally made with the institution of slavery in mind."
That is exactly what I am saying, States rights does not today, nor did it exclusivly mean in the past, slavery.
For example, in Montana, 2009 HOUSE BILL NO. 246 is called the "Montana Firearms Freedom Act". It states that "A personal firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in Montana and that remains within the borders of Montana is not subject to federal law or federal regulation, including registration, under the authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce."
This is what the founders inteaded for states rights, and what was lost during the civial war, not the abominable institution of slavery.
February 20, 2009
11:52 p.m.
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NuggetsFan2000 writes:
INC you are living in a fantasy. You should outsource your thought process to some rebel who does not read or write.
February 21, 2009
12:30 a.m.
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NuggetsFan2000 writes:
Lesh, if the founders intended for 2009 House Bill NO 246 to be part of the Constitution then they would have put the "Montana Firearms Freedom Act" after the 2nd Amendment. I can't find it there, or anywhere in the constitution. Whats the deal? Oh Yeah Bill 246 is about as helpful for interperting the Constitution as a box of crakerjacks. Or is Bill 246 going to be the 28th amendment? Either way it is not like the Constitution matters much to any of our elected officials. Can I get some equal protection here?
February 21, 2009
9:58 a.m.
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stlusa writes:
The other day the song "The Night They Drove Dixie Down" came on the radio. I thought to myself I could lose my job if the right libtard was in the area. What a dangerous time we live in.
February 21, 2009
10:19 a.m.
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INC writes:
NuggetsFan2000,
you are living in a fantasy... The Nuggets are a "professional" basketball team that is based here in Denver. So we can go watch Championship teams come here and beat them.
February 22, 2009
4:41 p.m.
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carlindenver writes:
These are kids, adolescents being taught by unionized left leaning DPS instructors. And how proficiently are the kids being taught and what do these kids actually KNOW?? Well here:
South High School
District: Denver
The table marked overall proficiency rate is a quick glance at how the school fared in terms of how many of its students scored proficient or advanced in each subject. It is calculated by dividing total number of students who took the tests in all of the grades in each subject by the total number of students who scored proficient or advanced in all grades.
OVERALL PROFFICIENCY RATE
Year Reading Writing Math Science
% pass % chng % pass % chng % pass % chng % pass % chng
2008 31.84 -4.17 19.92 -3.76 12.56 +0.56 23.00 -*
2007 36.02 -5.65 23.68 -1.99 12.00 -2.23 20.00 -2.00
2006 41.66 +3.66 25.67 -0.43 14.23 +5.33 22.00 -
2005 38.00 +3.48 26.10 +2.78 8.90 -2.54 -
2004 34.52 -1.42 23.32 -2.20 11.44 +2.86 -
2003 35.94 +0.43 25.52 +1.51 8.58 -0.93 -
2002 35.51 - 24.01 +4.01 9.51 +2.51 -
2001
The chart is a bit scrunched up but, Reading, writing, Math & Science are the column headers. Their test test scores are an insult to Denver taxpayers. Look at the low level of proficiency!!!
And their concern is what? Right!! being PC.
February 22, 2009
9:35 p.m.
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RonMasters writes:
Johnny Reb dealt a death blow. Trial one sided.
That could be the headline, if truth in reporting was all it should be.
But, unortunately so many view that the "racist" nature of the Johnny Reb logo is the issue. The deeper matter is that serveral decades ago Denver took a brave the step [tolerance]of saying to the public, "The dark clouds of hatred and bigotry are moving behind us as a Nation" by selecting the "Johnny Reb" carricature as a symbol of determination not segregation. Just what does the recent action of the DPS and the South High Principal do to further that cause set forth so many years ago?
In all those years since, Rebs at South High have held their heads high knowing that being a "Reb" meant strength, perseverance, grit, love of country, belief in self, faith in God and in others. It is doubtful that few, if any, who passed under the griffin ever identified "Reb" or "Johnny Reb" linked, even in some circuitous manner, to the confederacy, slavery or the ku klux klan.
Leadership involves making many decisions, hopefully, more right ones than wrong. This decision may have had the right "heart" in it, but not mixed with the right "mind." It is my belief that this decision was based solely on today's complainants compared to the tens of thousands all of whom have attended South and the tradition and tolerance shown. Would not the better leadership lesson have been to educate the current students that the logo was about tradition and tolerance only, never about race or any other hidden "movement oriented" theme? For, is not leadership about the courage of leading through adversity as well as in times of ease? And teaching the lesson of how tolerance helps move us past hate could even mold future leaders.
If this carricature was viewed as racist and "had been an issue for 2 decades" to paraphrase Principal Kohut, would it not have been dealt with before? Further, were members of the opposing side solicited to present their views? I suggest if they were, the attempt was weak at best and my apologies for my cynicism.
In these times of financial strife does the DPS board have the leisure to throw $15,000 at an issue that may not be a real problem?
As an alum and proud "Reb" of the class of 1964, I urge Principal Kohut and the DPS Board to rethink this. At the very least, give this issue a proper public airing with some debate from both sides. Would this not be learning at its best?
Ron Masters
Class of 1964
February 23, 2009
6:32 p.m.
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doctaaa writes:
YOU MY BOY JOHNY REBEL YOU WILL BE MISSED
February 24, 2009
7:35 p.m.
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SuperDave1 writes:
Maybe they should change the name of the school. Denver South is, well, bad. The name conjures up memories of... the South. How racist.
February 28, 2009
4 a.m.
Suggest removal
toddmccalla writes:
I agree with their choice.
Todd
Creative Director
http://www.vailco.com/