Ward Churchill, Bill Owens tangle again
Former guv says essay was not why CU prof was fired
By Lynn Bartels, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published February 6, 2009 at 12:05 a.m.
Darin McGregor © The Rocky
Professor Ward Churchill quietly listens to a victory song being played on a drum at the end of his press conference after the CU Board of Regents voted to terminate him at the University Memorial Center at the University of Colorado in Boulder Tuesday July 24, 2007.
Former Gov. Bill Owens said in a deposition it's a good thing the University of Colorado ignored him when he urged that professor Ward Churchill be fired over a controversial essay.
"I'm glad that the university, its counsel, and others who had a chance over a period of years to look at the law and look at the case didn't follow my advice and, in fact, chose to ignore it," Owens said in the deposition, taken one week ago today.
Had CU fired Churchill for the essay - as Owens wanted - the school would have violated Churchill's free-speech rights, Owens said.
CU fired Churchill in 2007 because a faculty committee concluded he plagarized and lied about historical facts in his writings.
Churchill maintains he was fired for writing that the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks were a response to a long history of U.S. abuses. He is suing to get his job back.
Churchill's attorney, David Lane, on Thursday released a copy of the deposition to the Rocky Mountain News.
"The real story here is that the governor admitted he violated Ward Churchill's rights," Lane said. "In his deposition, he swore that he was going to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, but he gave CU advice to violate the Constitution."
Owens countered that Churchill is trying to claim he was fired because of "pressure from the top" but he won't be able to prove his case. In the deposition, Owens said "the faculty and the University of Colorado ignored me most of the time." He also noted the regents are elected and he had no power over them.
"Ward Churchill was fired because he's a congenital plagiarist," Owens said Thursday.
Churchill's trial is scheduled for March 9 in Denver District Court.
Owens, a Republicanwho left office in January 2007, was governor when Churchill's essay became public in January 2005 and sparked national outrage. In interviews, the governor urged Churchill to resign and suggested he be fired if he didn't.
"Firing Ward Churchill in retaliation for his First Amendment protected political speech would then violate the Constitution, wouldn't it?" Lane asked in the deposition.
"Had that been done, yes, and also, I would have regretted it if it had been done for that reason," Owens said. "It wasn't done for that reason. It was done for a number of other reasons."
Lane suggested CU launched its investigation of Churchill's academic record after Owens talked about reducing the school's budget.
"When you're saying 'Do something about Ward Churchill or we're going to look at your budget, isn't that a threat?" Lane asked.
Owens said no and pointed out that the legislature's Joint Budget Committee sets the budget.
"We didn't try to reduce the university's budget. And, in fact, the university's budget during this time was very probably increasing," Owens said.
When Lane suggested Owens tried to cut the funding to Churchill's department, the governor said that was incorrect.
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February 6, 2009
3:54 a.m.
Suggest removal
GinT writes:
Of course, we'll never hear Ward Churchill ever admit what he is..... an habitual liar who attempted to deceive everyone he came in contact with.
He's not really a Native American, yet he professes that he is, even to tribes. He doesn't write his own stuff and hides behind the first amendment.
Ward Churchill is a sham and a permanent black mark on the University of Colorado. I can't wait to see his deposition.
February 6, 2009
5:16 a.m.
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mikeyg writes:
If every time Churchill says/said "white" in his classroom or in his speeches you substitute the word "black", or "mexican" or "queer" he'd never be able to raise the free speech defense because it would be considered "hate speech". But picking on whitey can never be hate speech for his defenders.
In fact, the freakish clown that is Churchill and his gang of thug clowns who travel with his circus act have no problem denying free speech to the Columbus Day parade participants every year under his definition of "hate speech". He's a hypocritical fraud and that's what his dismissal was all about. While I'm not a supporter of hate speech laws and school codes, as long as they're on the books and applied against people for offending minorities and gays they should apply to the Churchill's of the world. he should have been fired for inciting hatred of whites just like others have been from CU for inciting hatred of blacks, asians, hispanics, arabs and gays.
I purposely left Jewish people out because they have now become an acceptable class to direct hate speech at (like whites) by the liberal media, academia and sensitivity awareness industry. It's okay to waive posters around that call for Jews to go to the gas chambers, but don't you dare offend a Muslim by mentioning the fact that most terrorists are Muslim.
February 6, 2009
5:28 a.m.
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the_ripper writes:
The lying plaigarist (proven) never quite goes away.
What a worthless POS.
February 6, 2009
5:34 a.m.
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the_ripper writes:
I've got a copy of the essay that Sitting Bullsh!t wrote
the day after 9-11.
It reads like it was written by a seventh grader, not a tenured(EX!) professor. Extremely poor sentense structure, among other glaring issues...and this clown pretends to be an author.
Do us all a favor, Wardo; crawl back into your hole and stay there this time.
February 6, 2009
6:05 a.m.
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Tom writes:
Um, does the_ripper realize he's employing a racially charged tone when he addresses Churchill as "Sitting Bull****"? It's like calling him "Chief" or an African American "Sa#bo" (the News wouldn't let me spell that one out). Really offensive.
And the word is spelled "sentence" (not "sentense"), so I don't think you have much credibility critiquing Churchill's writing.
February 6, 2009
6:33 a.m.
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taoistblockhead writes:
Americans can't deal with the fact that their European ancestors under the spell of god and greed committed centuries worth of genocide against the First Peoples of North and South America - "American Holocaust" by David Stannard describes the destruction. Americans also can't deal with the fact that the "official version" of 9/11 was blowback against the atrocities of American Empire - "Crossing the Rubicon" and "The Shock Doctrine" are two excellent resources chronicling the affects of American Economic Imperialism and its consequences.
Ward Churchill's meta-critiques of American culture are correct. Xenophobic, jingoistic flag wavers prefer to indulge in the American myth that they are "god's chosen people" with a pre-ordained right to plunder the planet's natural resources, and destroy "the other" that happens to be in their way.
The economic terrorists of Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" have come home to roost on the shores of America and the non-elite U.S. citizens are getting a tatse of the medicine that corporate America has been dishing out to indigenous peoples around the world for decades and centuries. How's "Democracy Incorporated" working out for us now?
Bill Owens is a self-righteous hypocrite and in the words of Dan Caplis, here's hoping that David Lane and Ward Churchill "beat him like a baby seal" in the upcoming trial.
February 6, 2009
6:58 a.m.
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RockiesWin writes:
reality_check, you are an idiot! Your posting are hateful and lack any kind of rational thought. Get a life and quit posting your poison here.
February 6, 2009
7:04 a.m.
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elkman writes:
taoistblockhead
The indians in North America were no more than wondering bands of gypsies, killing each other off when ever they could. They were savage in the manner in which they killed other indians. They had no right to claim this land. They were not even the original people on this continent. They themselves came here from elsewhere. So, get off your high horse and live in today. The indian people have many more rights than you and I do. I had to pay for my college education, they don't. If the indians would melt into the pot like every other nationality has, they would not be in the position they are today.
And as for the "poser" Churchill. What a piece of work. He is a true coward.
February 6, 2009
7:07 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
I agree Mr. Churchill can write anything he pleases, even false statements of history, if he desires to foolishly do so without firm historical evidence of support. Plagurism on the other hand, is nothing more or short of stealing the intellectual and proprietry rights of another's research, work and labor. Churchill is forever noted, regardless of opinions, as a thief who plagurized and stole the works of others to credentialize himself. Many, even those of his own people, have questions concerning his claims to Native American bloodlines as well. Although his essays are inflammatory to say the least, it is well within his right to say whatever he desires without censorship. Thus far all his own works are not only questionable, but disowned by many noted historians as well. The only real creditable pieces he sought to abscond with, were the works of others. I think of such people as the intellectual carpet-baggers of academia as well being an unreliable source of reference. So in the future, most creditable and critical students of his disipline, will be skeptical to site or give credit to any of his works as fact, upon which the basis of an opinion can solidly rest. That in and of itself, regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit, it a shame and dishonor that many of his disipline would see as a horrific stain upon their life's work. So Mr. Churchill now wears the scarlet letter, boldly printed across his life's work, as a plagurist who achieved stealing the works of others. What a footnote to his creditability regardless of the outcome of his suit. Money will never wash away the stain of dishonor, nor remove the threads holding the scarlet letter firmly attached to him and his works.
February 6, 2009
7:15 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
ELKMAN, you are sadly mistaken,; the American Indian is a sovereign entity and nation within a nation. Your desire to assimulate and place in your own sovreign control over them and their lands was/is a crime of great historical proportion. They are a seperate and sovereign people, the very treaties establish between them and our government are prima facie of this very fact.
February 6, 2009
7:30 a.m.
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elkman writes:
Louie
That in itself is the problem. Because they are a sovereign nation, they have not had to assimilate like every other nationality. The American government was wrong from the start in making them a sovereign nation. Why should the indian people be any more special than you or me? They have many more opportunities than you or I in this country.
February 6, 2009
7:33 a.m.
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elkman writes:
Louie
War is hell. To the victor belongs the spoils. That is what war is all about.
February 6, 2009
7:47 a.m.
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pablohoney writes:
churchill is pathological.. how he was hired and kept is a major blemish on CU. What a pos he is
February 6, 2009
7:47 a.m.
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taoistblockhead writes:
Elkman - The results of your thinking are all around us, as America becomes a third-world country.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/081...
Andrew J. Bacevich — Professor of International Relations at Boston University, retired Army colonel, and West Point graduate — joins Bill Moyers on the JOURNAL to encourage viewers to take a step back and connect the dots between U.S. foreign policy, consumerism, politics, and militarism. Bacevich begins his new book, THE LIMITS OF POWER: THE END OF AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM, with an epigraph taken from the Bible: "Put thine house in order." Bacevich explained his choice to Bill Moyers:
“I've been troubled by the course of U.S. foreign policy for a long, long time. And I wrote the book in order to sort out my own thinking about where our basic problems lay. And I really reached the conclusion that our biggest problems are within.
“I think there's a tendency in the part of policy makers — and probably a tendency in the part of many Americans — to think that the problems we face are problems that are out there somewhere beyond our borders, and that if we can fix those problems, then we'll be able to continue the American way of life as it has long existed. I think it's fundamentally wrong. Our major problems are here at home.”
February 6, 2009
7:50 a.m.
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TeardropCowboy writes:
taoistblockhead -
Looks like you got an "A" in Ward Churchill's class. You have fully assimilated his nonsensical BS.
February 6, 2009
8:01 a.m.
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FCZ writes:
Ward Churchill would do himself some good to express a profound apology to people he has offended and misled.
He should also come clean about his appropriated American Indian identity
February 6, 2009
8:03 a.m.
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elkman writes:
taoistblockhead
I don't give a rats you know what about what some acadameia nut has to rant about. This will never be a third world country. As I said before, the American govenment made a huge mistake in making the indians a sovereign nation. The way to make this nation great is for ALL people to come together and think like AMERICANS no matter what their skin color is.
February 6, 2009
8:11 a.m.
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CaptainObvious writes:
elkman, not all tribes wandered. Some made permanent homes.
This should not take away from the fact that Churchill is a lying cheating buffoon.
February 6, 2009
8:15 a.m.
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eaglehawk writes:
WC is an idiot
February 6, 2009
8:16 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
ELKMAN, it's not a matter of being special; the American government didn't make them a sovereign people, they already were. I understand very well how one culture dominates another using war and military might to prevail. After all these years of dominance, parading their great chiefs like sideshow attractions in Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, we have created not only a great gulf between our peoples, but an even stronger desire for them to assert their rights to be a sovereign people. Did we parade the Germans and Japanese in canival folly of our own stereotypes and fictional depictions of their culture? No, Emperor Hirohito remained on the throne and we sought to rebuild their nations and culture to economic prosperity. With the American Indian, as we found out with Gail Norton, our government can't even account for monies that honorably and lawfully belong to the tribes. We didn't rebuild them and empower them to be our allies. We destroyed their culture, placed them upon barren and desolate pieces of land, and ruined them economically to our advantage when that land was found to hold minerals and resources. Still they remain, their desire to sever the ties to our government remain strong, and instead of having a great and loyal ally, we've created a bitterness that not only haunts the pages of history, but may oneday reassert itself at a time when America can least afford an internal struggle in the future. You may gloat and revel in the victory, yet what has been created is a passionate enemy within; who of all people we have conquered should have been empowered to even greater statue than our foreign conquests. As an Irish catholic, my grandmother cursed the English, the bitterness she had still lives on today as sure as the Orangemen march down Gavinchy Road every year. Then one day it festers, and the blood of your own people starts filling up the caldron of humanity. The pages of history live on to be repeated, unless we stand to change the hearts and minds of men.
February 6, 2009
8:32 a.m.
Suggest removal
elkman writes:
Louie
When was the last time indians were put on display like a side show? Give me a break. This is today. You and the indian people need to live in the "today". It is because of people like you who want to remind everyone of the past that bitterness still exists. Leave it alone. We cannot live in the yesterday with the indian people. They must assimilate like every one else. This country will never have true harmony until everyone who lives here wants it to be one country.
You wrote: "Did we parade the Germans and Japanese in canival folly of our own stereotypes and fictional depictions of their culture?"
The answer is yes we did. Maybe you are too young to remember the cartoons and carnival folly that American writers made of Hitler, Stalin, and many others. Quit putting the indian people up on a pedestal and start realizing that this country needs to be ONE.
February 6, 2009
8:47 a.m.
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JDub writes:
This article fails to point out that attracting negative harmful attention to the university is grounds for dismissal, not grounds for tenure... This fake would literally march into his meetings behind a parade of indians banging on drums. I wonder if the leader of the Student Democrats would say Churchill encouraged dialogue of opposing viewpoints in his classroom? Oh and Churchill must really love Colorado because the university now has to defend itself on OUR dime. I was a student at CU when he was there and he is a Grade A JOKE!
February 6, 2009
8:59 a.m.
Suggest removal
TheDenverB writes:
"but don't you dare offend a Muslim by mentioning the fact that most terrorists are Muslim."
what is that based on???
i can name four american-born terrorists that caused as much, if not more terror....
i mean, what you said WOULD offend a muslim because it is offensively overgeneralizing....
February 6, 2009
9:11 a.m.
Suggest removal
UNV_ME writes:
People can say whatever they want... but everyone knows he was fired for the essay on 9/11. Owens and CU's regents are schumucks. Who do they think they are kidding?
February 6, 2009
9:16 a.m.
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timeandagain writes:
Churchill is a classic liberal... misguided, unintelligent, lying & secretly greedy. Lots of talk and ZERO substance!
February 6, 2009
9:23 a.m.
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ruralvoice writes:
Will Ward Churchill please just go away. He is a proven liar and should leave the people of Colorado alone already. Twenty members of the CU faculty ruled he is a plagarist, the CU Regents voted on his dismissal, CU Pres. Hank Brown determined he should be fired. What more do you need? Good grief, can't Churchill go be a drain to another state or country for awhile? Especially if he hates it here so much to begin with.
Good for Gov. Owens to have the common sense to say Churchill should go when this came out years ago. I have yet to meet a person in this state that disagrees. I miss Gov. Owens at the command.
February 6, 2009
9:23 a.m.
Suggest removal
barneyrubble writes:
Elkman, take a history class (and a spelling one while you're at it) and this time listen. Next time you post your hate-filled rant maybe you'll be better informed. An overwhelming majority of indigenous peoples of North America were not nomadic "wondering (sic) gypsies" but stable cultures that sustained the land 100 times longer than the western culture that invaded, occupied and committed genocide against them. The Tewa tribes of the southwest have been living in the same communities, sustaining their culture for more than three thousand years. Show me a western culture that can say the same thing. They don't exist. Take for example the trailer park where you were raised. Now its a strip mall. Western culture has much to be gained regarding sustainability by studying them.
While I realize there is a certain comfort living within one's ignorance, when you share that ignorance in public you should be embarrassed. I'm guessing you don't have the capacity to be embarrassed, even after letting your racism shine through brightly.
Additionally, Indians are from India although some play baseball in Cleveland. The indigenous people of the Americas are native Americans.
John Wayne is dead, and he portrayed a fictional character at that. Get over it and grow up.
February 6, 2009
9:28 a.m.
Suggest removal
barneyrubble writes:
Elkman writes, "Maybe you are too young to remember the cartoons..."
Should have known that's where you got your education.
"Quit putting the indian people up on a pedestal and start realizing that this country needs to be ONE."
And how are we going to get their when there is such a high level of ignorance amongst us?
February 6, 2009
9:34 a.m.
Suggest removal
LOUIE writes:
"War is hell. To the victor belong the spoils. That is what war is all about."- ELKMAN. "The way to make this nation great is for ALL people to come together and think like Americans no matter what the color of their skin."-ELKMAN "You and the Indian people need to live in "today". "-ELKMAN. Today ELKMAN, you as the victor who enjoys the spoils of your victory, have created a bitter enemy from within, one who cares nothing about the color of your skin or your attempts to cover history. Enjoy the spoils, one day you will find such an approach to history, will come back to avenge itself in your blood.
February 6, 2009
9:41 a.m.
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jd writes:
One problem with a lot of the stories here is that they are putting 21 century ideals on people of hundreds of years ago. That is just not right. They were doing their best compared to the people around them at the time.
It's also easy to sustain the land when there aren't many people to live off of it.
February 6, 2009
9:44 a.m.
Suggest removal
GunnyBob writes:
Ward would make a fine addition to the Obamanista, Kim, bin Laden, Chavez, Mugabe, Castro or Ahmadinejad regime in any number of Cabinet positions, all of which would likely pay more than he was making at CU. Lane should approach these regimes so that Ward can pay Lane's fees, which are considerable, his colleagues tell me. This is simply a good business move.
February 6, 2009
9:44 a.m.
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BurningChrome writes:
MIKEY G
Great post. You hit the nail on the head there!
February 6, 2009
9:44 a.m.
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farsidefan writes:
We know where we all stand on Churchill.
This story is about the fact that Owens admitted he wanted to violate someone's first amendment rights, "Had CU fired Churchill for the essay - as Owens wanted - the school would have violated Churchill's free-speech rights, Owens said. "
A governor recommending someone's first amendment rights be violated. Classy.
February 6, 2009
9:47 a.m.
Suggest removal
chickenlittle1234 writes:
We need to bring back Celebrity Death Match. Put both of these gas bags in a ring with no rules. I suspect people would pay enough to bring down the budget shortfall by half.
February 6, 2009
9:48 a.m.
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the_ripper writes:
I don't claim to be a writer, Tommy.
February 6, 2009
9:50 a.m.
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the_ripper writes:
I notice you didn't try to deny he writes at about a seventh grade level, either.
February 6, 2009
9:50 a.m.
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CaptainObvious writes:
timandagain @ 9:16 am:
"Churchill is a classic liberal... misguided, unintelligent, lying & secretly greedy. Lots of talk and ZERO substance!"
Your stereo-typing and blatant generalizations remove any legitimacy from your post. I'm not even a liberal, yet I am offended by your hugely false statements. You only make yourself look closed-minded and childish with this kind of writing.
February 6, 2009
9:54 a.m.
Suggest removal
Johnny_LaRue writes:
I'm no fan of either Churchill or Owens - both schmucks
elkman, I don't mean this as an attacking-type question, but have you ever been on a Reservation or known any Native Americans?
Louie - as always thanks for your informed perspective
February 6, 2009
9:58 a.m.
Suggest removal
elkman writes:
barneyrubble
Looks like you must have taken several of WC's classes. Birds of a feather...Thanks for the childish insults. Serves you very well. Sorry to educate you, but MANY of the tribes in the western U.S. were gypsy-like in their lifestyle. By the way, this is not a English composition/writting/spelling class. It is a thread. I did not know that you were so familiar with trailer parks. I do have the capacity to be embarrased, but not from some jerk like you. I have not spewed any hatred about indians. Show me where I have, because you are long on dumb and short on brains. Guess you had a bad night and got in a fight with the wife? You wrote: "Additionally, Indians are from India although some play baseball in Cleveland. The indigenous people of the Americas are native Americans". You really are ignorant. History books, novels, you name it, all refer to your native Americans as indians. You have quite a love for yourself, don't you? Time for you to go get your cookies and milk.
February 6, 2009
10:01 a.m.
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elkman writes:
Johnny_LaRue
Yes, I grew up next to an indian reservation and have known and still know many indians. How about you?
February 6, 2009
10:03 a.m.
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barneyrubble writes:
GunnyBob writes, "Ward would make a fine addition to the Obamanista, Kim, bin Laden, Chavez, Mugabe, Castro or Ahmadinejad regime in any number of Cabinet positions"
Real classy comparing your new president to these rouge leaders. If our last 'leader' was as intelligent, compassionate, articulate, etc., we wouldn't be in this mess. Enjoy the next 8 years.
February 6, 2009
10:03 a.m.
Suggest removal
JSeifert writes:
Its already been proven that they were not the first but the 2nd group to come to America they pushed out the first. 3rd were the spainish then the english then french then us.
As to heritage I got more blood ties then churchy does do not see me running around in bucks claiming people murdered my heritage waving the AIM flag.
This man is a cheat and was fired because he was a cheat period.
February 6, 2009
10:06 a.m.
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elkman writes:
barneyrubble
Do you need money for a dictionary?
Indian defined in the dictionary.
1. A native or inhabitant of India or of the East Indies. 2. A member of any of the aboriginal peoples of North America, South America, or the West Indies.
Now, which part of number 2 do you not understand? Maybe you need to go back to school and finish this time, before calling someone ignorant.
February 6, 2009
10:08 a.m.
Suggest removal
sawzallartist writes:
LOUIE writes:
" Enjoy the spoils, one day you will find such an approach to history, will come back to avenge itself in your blood."
Louie your above post illustrates perfectly the concept of "blowback" which was coined by the CIA to explain why terrorism would happen on our soil.
WC tried in a very bad way was to show this with his "writing".....but unfortunately in a way that people who were unwilling to deal with reality could rail against.
People we have fostered the idiots who come to kill us....you reap what you sow....this country has been far from perfect in its dealings oversees.....to deny this is to be unable to love your country as an adult and as a moral person.
Elkman...your ideas of Indians seem based more on westerns from the 50's than a educated take.
Here is a tidbit of info....large concepts in the formation of our government was taken from the Iroquois by our founding fathers....ideas of federalism for example. Hardly savages needing a good dose of conversion.
February 6, 2009
10:12 a.m.
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buffsblg writes:
Churchill is a poor scholar, a serial liar, and a demonstrated plagiarist. He demands respect for his "ideas" while denying others the same and substitutes hysteria and personal attack for logic or scholarship. His writings are poorly constructed, poorly researched and childish. His hiring and tenure was the result of one administrator promoting "diversity" over qualifications. Not a high point of my beloved alma mater. He deserved to be fired and no matter what mud his attorney throws, I think that judgment will be eventually upheld by a jury.
Owens is a pompous judgmental jerk who decided to ignore the law and the constitution in his rush to kiss up to the right wing base that he thought would get him into the cabinet. His lack of respect for the rights of those he disagrees with is not just disappointing but tragic. We should expect more from elected officials. It is a good thing that his personal failings prevented him from moving to national office where he could have done even more damage.
No good guys here, just a bunch of posturing loudmouths (Churchill hiring Lane is a perfect match.) Who would want to be on this jury? Earplugs mandatory, barf bags optional but recommended.
February 6, 2009
10:12 a.m.
Suggest removal
GunnyBob writes:
Jeepers, now I have gone and upset a cartoon character from Bedrock.
February 6, 2009
10:15 a.m.
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rcop writes:
The unavoidable truth is that Ward Churchill, like many other underqualified "minorities", was given a job and rapidly elevated within his institution with little scrutiny and blind acceptance of his work product. The evils of affirmative action proliferate unchecked in this environment.
It may be offensive to some when this scenario is tied to liberalism, but the facts are the facts. There is no redemption the University can claim after finally exposing Mr. Churchill for the fraud that he is. They helped create him.
February 6, 2009
10:20 a.m.
Suggest removal
barneyrubble writes:
Elkman, too bad you can't recognize your own ignorance. I am embarrassed for you. I've never met WC as I went to a different university AND graduated top of my class. Nor do I necessarily agree with him. However, he was attacked solely for the content of his paper on 9/11 and much of what he said was accurate like the fact that historically we oppress peoples not just of our own country, but of many other parts of the world for our economic gain. Lot of good that seems to have done in these economic times.
Yes, some tribes of the Americas were nomadic, but they were the exception, just like some modern Americans are nomadic (anthropology is my passion). They did know how to care for the land and lived a sustainable lifestyle until western civilization invaded and euthanized them because they were different and we were scared of them. Not just their men either. We went and systematically exterminated the women and children in their villages while the men were away. Something to really be proud of, eh? This WAS their land.
As for 'educating me'? That's a nice thought but before I take anything other than the rampant hatred in your soul, educate yourself so that we may actually learn something from you other than intolerance and hatred. In the mean time go back to your copy of Mein Kampf.
February 6, 2009
10:20 a.m.
Suggest removal
elkman writes:
Louie
"you as the victor who enjoys the spoils of your victory, have created a bitter enemy from within, one who cares nothing about the color of your skin or your attempts to cover history. Enjoy the spoils, one day you will find such an approach to history, will come back to avenge itself in your blood"
Louie, I have not gone to war with anyone. I really am having trouble understanding the point that you are trying to make. People cannot live in the past. People such as yourself seem to want to, but it is impossible. The indian people were still living in the stone age when the Spanish, French, and English first came to America. If you think we should keep giving, giving, and giving to the indian people, let you be the first to give your property and land back to them. Then you can sit back and crow about correcting history.
February 6, 2009
10:23 a.m.
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rcop writes:
Just a FYI - a tympani is a tunable drum which plays tones. Now I doubt that a tympani was the instrument being played at this meeting, but it is worthwhile noting that the blanket statement "a drum is an atonal instrument" is incorrect.
But back to my previous point at 10:15.
February 6, 2009
10:28 a.m.
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barneyrubble writes:
Gunny, you didn't upset me, I just expect something more from someone with reign over the PUBLIC airways. You've not even given YOUR new president one month and you're already comparing him to the most vehement leaders of the world. Shame on you. Your man had a chance for the last eight years to run the free world and look what he did with it.
February 6, 2009
10:32 a.m.
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barneyrubble writes:
elkman, FWIW and to alleviate you from some of your ignorance, native Americans were hardly living in the stone age. Visit a Mayan, Aztec, Incan or Tewa ruin sometime. They were amongst the most advanced cultures in the world during their reign.
Keep talking so the rest of us can really see just how bright you are.
February 6, 2009
10:35 a.m.
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elkman writes:
barneyrubble
You really are PWT. What do you know about indians, other than what you have read? You don't even know that they are called that it the dictionary. Therefore, you are only embarrassing yourself more. I do not have a hatred towards indians. I know more about them then you could ever learn. I have taken anthropology and archaeology also. Probably more classes than you. So, don't pi_s down my back and tell me its raining. Indians need to assimilate into the American culture if they want to improve their lives. They need to learn from other cultures that have come to this country.
February 6, 2009
10:37 a.m.
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toocool writes:
Well he's ran the fake indian thing into the ground, maybe now a shot at being a persecuted illegal....or....maybe he IS an illegal......?
February 6, 2009
10:38 a.m.
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elkman writes:
boondoggle
Yes, the North American Indian was living in the stone age. Hell, they did not even have the horse and wagon. DUH. And their arrowheads were made of? Stone!
February 6, 2009
10:41 a.m.
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barneyrubble writes:
elkman writes, "Indians need to assimilate..."
You got that from Mein Kampf? My background? Anthropology and architecture, from amongst other places, UNM one of the top Anthropology programs in the world. That's different from reading about anthro in high school. Otherwise you would have known that its Native American.
So what reservation did you grow up next too? I am from the southwest.
FWIW, if the Tewa had NOT learned and taken from western culture they would not still be in existence today.
February 6, 2009
10:41 a.m.
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Willy writes:
10:12 a.m.
buffsblg writes:
Post of the day!!!
February 6, 2009
10:45 a.m.
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elkman writes:
rubble
Pine Ridge Reservation. No, sorry, Mein Kampf was not one of the books I have ever read. Maybe because a mad man wrote it. My professor was Dr. Larry Aggenbroad. Ever hear of this famous man?
Let me repeat it one more time, Indians need to assimilate into American culture. It is time to do away with reservations and the BIA. Bureau of Indian Affairs, in case you don't know.
February 6, 2009
10:47 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
Long before the Spanish, French, and the English, ELKMAN, the most feared and ruthless colonial power of history to ever rule the seas, the Portuguese. I understand fully the conquests of the colonial masters. History is littered with examples of great military powers conquering civilizations much more brilliant than themselves. I can only sit in awe of the Mayans and Aztec civilizations, South America also holds a great repository of ancient history. Thank God for books, and prison libraries, because you may be right ELKMAN, I often think I have educated myself to the level of a fool. I'll concede the debate to you, if but for the sake of not questioning my own sanity. Thanks ELKMAN, you have a great day and a wonderful weekend my friend!
February 6, 2009
10:48 a.m.
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barneyrubble writes:
Elkman, stone age homo sapiens did not have irrigation systems and dams, they did not know how to make bricks, they did not know how to grow crops, they did not know how to make advanced tools and they most certainly did not live communally.
To point out your ignorance AGAIN, the reason they didn't have horse drawn carriages is because THERE WERE NO HORSES HERE (duh), the Spanish brought them here. duh, duh, DUH!
February 6, 2009
10:57 a.m.
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barneyrubble writes:
Elkman, I've heard of Aggenbroad but thought he was a paleontologist with a geology background more so than an anthropologist. Regardless, his work is focused on ice age mammals, not indigenous cultures. Additionally, I find it hard to believe that he would agree with your premise.
February 6, 2009
11:04 a.m.
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elkman writes:
barney
You can argue all day long abut the intelligence of the North American Indian. My point is and has been, that indians need to assimilate into our society. Why do they still have is so bad? Answer, they would rather live on the reservation and suffer than assimilate into this society. Well, my friend, the age of isolation is over. The indians who do have it better, have assimilated into society and seen that the "old" ways are just that. OLD.
And by the way, it was tongue and cheek about the horse and wagon. Does everything have to be explained to you? Just the simple ones?
February 6, 2009
11:07 a.m.
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elkman writes:
"Additionally, I find it hard to believe that he would agree with your premise."
Now you are speaking for a professor? How stupid can you get? You learned your anthopology on line?
February 6, 2009
11:09 a.m.
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JHusseinC writes:
This is dumb. You guys are old. Nature has a way of getting rid of outmoded ideas. Its called "natural causes."
GET OFF MAH LAWN!
February 6, 2009
11:12 a.m.
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CaptainObvious writes:
"No good guys here, just a bunch of posturing loudmouths (Churchill hiring Lane is a perfect match.) Who would want to be on this jury? Earplugs mandatory, barf bags optional but recommended."
Classic! Thanks for the laugh buffsblg.
February 6, 2009
11:15 a.m.
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Johnny_LaRue writes:
elkman - yes, I grew up in MT and later WY. Have spent a lot of time on the Crow, Northern Cheyenne, Blackfeet reservations. They used to have "All-American Indian Days" in Sheridan, WY, which brought tribes from all over the country. It was cancelled years ago due to several issues.
Your theory of assimilation seems contradictory to the concept of separating them and putting them on Reservations. It seems like a waste of a proud culture. I don't know what the answers are.
chickenlittle - I would pay to see Churchill & Owens in the cage.
February 6, 2009
11:17 a.m.
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buffsblg writes:
Thanks Willie:
This is a hard case for a 1st amendment fanatic like me. Churchill clearly came to the attention of the committee for his essay (could barely be called that, more like a rant) and I dislike people being even indirectly punished for that. Owens public rants against Churchill would have made me sympathetic for Ward in most cases.
However it took little time to realize that Churchill was an unqualified poser who plays the victim card to get what he cannot earn. He is so clearly unqualified for his position and his plagiarism is so obvious and ham handed that whatever criticism he may have suffered for his opinions, he is and remains unqualified to teach a dog how to role over, let alone pretend to teach college students.
I do know a couple of people on the committee who reviewed Churchill's "work". They are dedicated well meaning and studious and very dedicated to academic freedom. Their conclusions are well thought out, well documented and correct. May all of them go away soon.
February 6, 2009
11:20 a.m.
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elkman writes:
Johnny_LaRue
Believe that has been my point from the start. Indians should never have been put on reservations. It did nothing but stagnate their race. Reservations should be done away with just like the BIA.
February 6, 2009
11:22 a.m.
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Beergut writes:
Owens is an a horse's behind without a tail. Period. He is the main reason this state voted for Democrats more than ever. Churchill may be misdirected, but at least he's trying to provoke dialog not squash it.
February 6, 2009
11:25 a.m.
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elkman writes:
Beergut
Since when do lies and deception provoke dialog?
February 6, 2009
11:27 a.m.
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Squatch writes:
Thanks Louie, you brought some class to the comments section today. Looks like you got a better education in Prison than most got from High School & College put together.
February 6, 2009
11:47 a.m.
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stumanchu writes:
Finding a 100% native american these days is not easy, but we do still have some. Unless WC can claim absolute, what is the point?
February 6, 2009
11:53 a.m.
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666 writes:
(1) Ward Churchill was fired for being an unapologetic plagiarist. And for being a bunghole. But there's no grounds for a "violation of civil rights" defense. CU is far better off without him.
(2) David Lane is a sleazy celebrity lawyer 'round these here parts, known for taking on ridiculous clients with ridiculous cases. Colorado courts would be far better off without him (though there's little hope of that).
February 6, 2009
11:53 a.m.
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stumanchu writes:
Too bad so many want to fight with each other instead of solving this problem!
February 6, 2009
12:03 p.m.
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the_ripper writes:
buffsblg....SPOT ON!!!!
Ya hit it right on the head.
February 6, 2009
12:07 p.m.
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the_ripper writes:
'...2) David Lane is a sleazy celebrity lawyer 'round these here parts, known for taking on ridiculous clients with ridiculous cases...'
True. But he's also Tim Masters' attorney these days, and I hope he prevails.
February 6, 2009
12:21 p.m.
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jbowen43 writes:
Who cares? It's a tossup as to which one is more irrelevant.
February 6, 2009
12:23 p.m.
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CaptainObvious writes:
On a side note--I always thought Native Americans were called "Indians" because Columbus's ego wouldn't let him admit he was lost. What I mean is that he was sailing for India, and when he came across the first bit of land, he looked down and said "This is India. You are Indians."
And as a friend added, the Native Americans looked at Columbus and his men and replied "Oh great, homeless people."
February 6, 2009
12:25 p.m.
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johna writes:
ward churchill and bill ayers need to take a cruise and hit a iceberg and that will solve all of their problems
February 6, 2009
12:30 p.m.
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freemarketworks writes:
Why the hate for Bill Owens? Governor Owens admitted his mistake and pointed out how the checks and balances in our government worked in this case. When Owens called for Churchill to be fired, he was merely standing up for the University of Colorado and denouncing the disgrace that a fraudulent, thieving pig like Churchill brought onto one of our finest institutions.
Churchill can claim that his 9/11 letter brought about his firing; however, the truth is that he’s a plagiarist and a liar. If Ward had things to hide, which he obviously did, than he was a complete idiot for putting himself in a negative light and inviting his enemies to put him under a microscope.
Taoistblockhead, and others that fall into your narrow and hateful views on the U.S. You are simply rehashing the leftist iconoclastic arguments of Noam Chomsky, which automatically assume that the U.S. is guilty of any animosity/hatred against it and work backward from that erroneous presumption. If it weren’t for the U.S. you people would be eating bread and borscht rations while cuddling for heat in a concrete high rise and sharing a government censored paper for news. Or is that what you wanted from the beginning?
February 6, 2009
12:32 p.m.
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woodjt1 writes:
Ward Churchill's 9/11 "essay" made quite a few people angry and got him national attention, which is exactly what he was hoping for. What it also did was cause the very people paying attention to him to poke around into his work and discover his plaigarism. Churchill's own barking dog is what bit him on the arse, and now he's just upset that he's not being paid anymore to stand up and pontificate. Unfortunately for him, he's so blinded by his own ego that he thinks if he can get his job back he'll also get back his former reputation.
February 6, 2009
12:48 p.m.
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buffsblg writes:
Free market
If all Owens had done was say what was obvious, that Churchill was a loud mouth embarrassment who did not represent the people of the state of Colorado, I would have had no issue. But by repeatedly calling for Churchill to be fired (remember this was before the plagiarism charges were widely known) Owens not only showed no respect for the Constitution and for state law, he got us in the position of facing this lawsuit and having to keep reliving this stupidity. I expect some acknowledgment of the law from the governor and I truly believe much of his bluster was part of his political campaign to move to national office.
February 6, 2009
12:52 p.m.
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666 writes:
The only reason Lane is representing Masters is because of the media coverage. He's even more of a media ho than Pamela Mackey.
BTW, regarding the whole "Indian" thing...reminds me of a T-shirt I saw at one of the downtown souvenir shops. An image of a Native American war-band on horseback, and the motto "Homeland Security: Fighting Terrorism Since 1492".
February 6, 2009
12:54 p.m.
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vimbo writes:
<Additionally, Indians are from India although some play baseball in Cleveland. The indigenous people of the Americas are native Americans.>
Gosh, that barneyrubble seminar writer is sure fired up. Doesn't even know that Indians prefer to be called...that's right, Indians. (You shoulda seen the hackles rise at a Western Writers conference a few years back when their Native American members asked 'em to stop using the term. They were Americans, by god, of Indian ancestry.) In fact, most get downright p.o.'d about being bestowed a name born of liberal white guilt like like "Native American,"particularly when disingenuous "academics" like Churchill profess to be of the same ancestry. Their ancestors were certainly in the Western Hemisphere early, but new theories are refuting a mass migration. It's getting pretty evident that people from a variety of cultures, mainly oriental but some occidental, arrived along a pretty lengthy timeline. The first here may hold the title of Native American. The second through the millionth do not. Not that the seminar writers care.
February 6, 2009
12:56 p.m.
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elkman writes:
woodjt1
Exactly so. He was proven to be a liar and a cheat by his own peers, and still has the ego to cry wolf. He is a "poser" and is still trying to deceive people. Nothing more than PWT.
February 6, 2009
12:57 p.m.
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HankReardon writes:
I don't know which one of these two guys I dislike the most. Hmmmmm, I'll have to get back to you on that...
February 6, 2009
12:58 p.m.
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robbyr2 writes:
Okay, so Europeans settled on the land previously occupied by the Native Americans. Well, apparently, all of us migrated from Africa. The Greeks of classical literature migrated to Greece. The Romans migrated to Italy. The Scots migrated to Scotland from Ireland. The Scots migrated to Ireland, becoming the Scotch-Irish. The Angles and the Saxons migrated to England from Germany. The Huns migrated from Central Asia. Africans were brought to the New World in chains. The English were brought to Australia in chains. The Indians (India!) moved to East Africa, South Africa and Fiji. The Chinese migrated to Singapore. The Native Americans apparently migrated from Asia, Polynesia and Europe. The Aborigines migrated to Australia. Homo sapiens killed the Neanderthals. The Aztecs migrated from further north. The Sioux migrated from the eastern US because of pressure from the English, Scots, Irish and Scotch-Irish. The whole of human history is one of migration, conquest, man's inhumanity to man. Let's move on.
February 6, 2009
12:59 p.m.
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chickenlittle1234 writes:
Interesting threads above, though a lot of misconceptions and partial facts regarding Indian sovereignty. LOUIE, you are partly correct, but Indian lands are not really nations within a nation. They are unique and in legal terms, closely akin to states. Despite that sovereignty, nearly all Indian lands (and sorry, barneyrubble, that's what they are known as and I have a story I'll relate another time on that semantic fact) are held in trust by the US government and administered through the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA). As elkman and others have pointed out, the BIA has historically been a horribly run bureaucracy rife with corruption and well-meaning boobs intent on social engineering. That has only recently begun to change, and those changes have been fitful and uneven. There is virtually no private ownership of Indian lands. That said, the status of tribal sovereignty is hugely important, because as tribes become more sophisticated and control their own destiny, they have begun to have some success in protecting both their historic lands and culture. Some tribes (particularly the pueblos in New Mexico, along with the Hopi) are extremely protective of their culture. Unlike elkman (and correct me if I am misstating your position) I have no problem with this lack of assimilation. I'm happy that tribes such as Hopi, Taos or San Ildephonso (to name only a few) have portions of their lands that are strictly off limits to me and other non-tribal members. It's their land, not mine. It's about identity.
February 6, 2009
1:06 p.m.
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HankReardon writes:
Um, Native Americans are actually native to Asia. Remember the migration? History... get to know it.
February 6, 2009
1:10 p.m.
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chickenlittle1234 writes:
vimbo writes - "Gosh, that barneyrubble seminar writer is sure fired up. Doesn't even know that Indians prefer to be called...that's right, Indians."
Okay, my story (and I'll try to keep it short). I used to work in the right-of-way industry (and yeah, how many of you knew there was such a thing), and I also used to chair a committee for the industry trade group on valuation. About that time, I had also been doing a lot of work for pueblos in New Mexico, specifically the Isleta. Isleta controls nearly all of the land south of Albuquerque, and if you wanted to run you fiber optic line or gas transmission line, you pretty much had to deal with the Isleta. Because there is virtually no private ownership of Indian lands, coming up with a value required some out-of-the-box thinking and we did come up with a methodology, which I thought would make a terrific session for our annual Education Seminar. As we put together the session, we tried to come up with names, and I was adamant that the term Indian Lands had to be in the title. However, there were many well-meaning and politically correct boobs who thought that would be insulting. As it happened, there was a land guy from Navajo in an adjoining planning meeting, and someone actually pulled him in so we could run through the title the well-meaning boob had come up with, which replaced Indian Lands with Native American. After hearing the politically correct title, the land guy nodded thoughtfully and said "That's a pretty good title, but you need to have the phrase Indian Land in there. Otherwise, no one will know what you're talking about."
February 6, 2009
1:10 p.m.
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elkman writes:
chickenlittle1234
My point from the start is that the lack of assimilation of the indians into society has held them back in many respects. I still believe that reservations are not a good thing. Never have been, never will be. The better solution is to give the indians land within the reservation and let them be the landowners. Give them the mineral and oil and gas rights, and let them choose to take care of their property. As long as the government subsidizes indians living on a reservation, the problem will continue.
February 6, 2009
1:18 p.m.
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stumanchu writes:
Isnt it funny when two fleas argue about who owns the dog they reside on?
February 6, 2009
1:19 p.m.
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chickenlittle1234 writes:
elkman - Thanks for the clarification and I understand your point. My own experience (which is obviously different from yours) is that many tribes aren't really keen on losing the status of reservations because that would also represent a loss of sovereignty and threaten the tribe's culture. But I'll also admit that this is an observation made from the outside, and thus merely my own speculation.
February 6, 2009
1:25 p.m.
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Johnny_LaRue writes:
elkman / chickenlittle - I would agree with your last two posts. I have seen several Native Indians assimilate or basically take advantage of opportunities to make a better life. But it seems for the most part, as time goes on, there is more and more despair and less likelihood for any assimilation or change to the ways of the past 100+ yrs.
February 6, 2009
1:33 p.m.
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chickenlittle1234 writes:
Johnny_LaRue - I don't know if I'd agree there is more and more despair, nor am I pushing for assimilation beyond what any individual wants for themselves. If anything, I'd push for stronger Indian sovereignty. In my opinion, forcing assimilation will only breed resentment and quite possibly result in cultural genocide.
February 6, 2009
1:34 p.m.
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elkman writes:
barneyboob
Just went through all my posts today and cannot see one single place where I stated anything ever resembling a "racist" remark. Yes, I do have an opinion on indians and reservations. If you think that makes me a "racist" you are probably the real racist. I grew up next to a reservation and I know first hand what the conditions are on the reservation. You, on the other hand, would rather jump on the thread and begin your insults because you have nothing of value to say. If you want to insult people, don't embarrass yourself doing it.
February 6, 2009
2:49 p.m.
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Johnny_LaRue writes:
chickenlittle - maybe assimilation isn't the right word. Opportunity may work better. Opportunity that they can use to increase the chances for sovereignty and thus more opportunity.
February 6, 2009
6:47 p.m.
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slocatch writes:
I'm trying to picture Ward starting a fire without matches.
February 6, 2009
7:44 p.m.
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taoistblockhead writes:
Duck Cheney and George Bush will serve out their days smoking reefer coaching the Paraguay Olympic swim team under house arrest in their Blackwater fortified ex-Nazi safehouse deep in the Amazonian Rainforest. Duck will pass quietly in his sleep while watching continuous loop reruns of the planes hitting the World Trade Center on 9/11, muttering "Rosebud" while holding a small PNAC-engraved glass globe of the Iraqi oil fields.
February 7, 2009
7:48 a.m.
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slocatch writes:
Now that was a mouthfull......
February 8, 2009
1:34 p.m.
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Jamessimon500 writes:
FYI, there's a lot of dirt on Churchill, not considered by the Univ, in the book, American Indian Mafia. A lot of what Churchill swore was factual history was actually his political dreams, or if you prefer, delusions.