16th Street Mall on at-risk list
By Mary Voelz Chandler, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published February 5, 2009 at 12:05 a.m.
A major tourist attraction in Denver hailed for its design, as well as three sites steeped in Colorado history, today join Colorado Preservation Inc.'s list of Endangered Places.
The 16th Street Mall faces challenges because RTD wants to replace the granite pavers important to the design.
Historic Denver Inc. nominated the downtown transit spine and top people-watching spot to be included on the list, which draws attention to a site that needs help to be stabilized or restored.
"We were concerned about keeping it in the public eye," Robert Musgraves, the new director of the nonprofit preservation group, said referring to the mall. "Things took a different course, but it's still important to keep an eye on it."
Other 2009 additions to the list are the Fourth Street Commercial District in the town of Saguache, the Greeley Salt Lake and Pacific Railroad grade in Larimer County and the Walsen Power Plant west of Walsenburg.
The CPI board chose the four from eight finalists, which were culled from 39 sites nominated from 32 counties.
To Jonas Landes, coordinator of the Endangered Places program for CPI, they show a trend. "Historic preservation is moving away from a lone iconic structure," he said. "Our list is an example of where it is going, including a design landscape that is not even 30 years old but an important part of our recent history."
As in the 16th Street Mall. Completed in 1982 according to a design by noted architect I.M. Pei's firm, the mall features granite pavers in a pattern that from above recalls the skin of a rattlesnake.
From day one, there have been problems with the pavers staying in place. RTD wants to replace the pavers because they cost $1 million a year to maintain.
But opposition to that has grown, including a report last year by an advisory panel of the Urban Land Institute, commissioned by the Downtown Denver Partnership. The panel chairman praised the mall as "a piece of extraordinary art."
The studies continue.
"Being on the list will continue heightened awareness of the 16th Street Mall," said Cassie Milestone, the partnership's urban planning manager.
The organization and other stakeholders in the mall, including RTD and the city, have retained the firms Matrix Design Group and EDAW to review the existing conditions and determine a rehabilitation strategy with an eye toward respecting the mall's design. A public meeting to consider proposals is set for April 15.
Meanwhile, far from this urban landmark, three other sites face their own issues.
* The Fourth Street Commercial District of the town of Saguache is really "main street," but like other rural towns in the West, it is seeing stores shutter as population drops. Mayor Milton Jones, a fourth-generation resident of Saguache, says he wants his hometown to "become a place where people want to live again." Some buildings date to 1874, when the town was incorporated.
* The 1881 Greeley Salt Lake and Pacific Railroad grade in Larimer County is on the National Register of Historic Places. That may help save it from the impact of construction by the city of Greeley of a stretch of massive water pipeline. The rail track and bed is intact, as are historic bridges. The $85 million water project is the first such improvement in 50 years, said Jon Monson, director of water and sewer for the city.
* The 1898 Walsen Power Plant is the only building that remains from the camp that worked the Walsen Mine. Long empty, the plant and surrounding seven acres were purchased 10 years ago by brothers Nick and Guillermo Sanchez. They are trying to sell the property for $300,000, but not to an owner who wants to demolish it. They said they believe the list will attract attention from someone who can find a new use.
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February 5, 2009
1:17 a.m.
Suggest removal
blabman3992 writes:
"RTD wants to replace the pavers because they cost $1 million a year to maintain"
What the heck is a "paver"??? A few pictures are definitely in order - what are you talking about!?!
February 5, 2009
2:11 a.m.
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freefall writes:
<Q>"From day one, there have been problems with the pavers staying in place. RTD wants to replace the pavers because they cost $1 million a year to maintain."</Q>
Every time I go downtown, there is a crew working on the pavers somewhere on the mall so I can believe they cost this much to maintain. Certainly there has to be a less costly alternative that would maintain an ascetic appeal. Besides, how many people actually get to see the "rattlesnake design" from above? How high up do you have to be to see it and is it worth the cost?
February 5, 2009
2:15 a.m.
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SL10 writes:
Get rid of the fake homeless from the 16th street mall and that would add some tourist value.
I see the 16th street mall will be made over in the future.
February 5, 2009
4:50 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
The Montoya Family has maintained the granite since it was built, they have a real expertise in doing so and have competively bid each year to keep the contract. Sad to see the beauty changed, but like other things that have changed in downtown I question whether it will be for the better. Almost all the mom and pop stores have disappeared downtown, we left over 10 years ago and move both of our businesses to better locations where our customers didn't have the parking and other pressures. Now on top of parking nightmares of finding a spot, the city enhanced the number of tickets being written with a quota (they deny it, but it's plain as day especially when the news investigator confronted the lady from parking on channel 4 this week) thus further making it a hassle for the customer to come downtown and walk the stores. We moved back to Cherry Creek North and things go fine, then the city decides it wants to rake our customers there with paid parking and tickets with their quotas. We have a parking lot for our customers thank God. The city has many other issues affecting business downtown, the granite is but one issue in a multitude of problems. Leave it alone, start looking as to why so many mom and pop businesses have moved out and stability and character have been loss. This has been occuring long before the economic downturn, for the last 10 to 15 years. I walk to Mass at Holy Ghost once a week, but I don't shop downtown or drive there. Finding a spot is tough, then the city harrasses me with their ticket quotas, all so I can patronize some corporation who keeps changing their employees, thus destroying any personal rapport I may have had with the business. Denver has changed the face of downtown to something totally different today. So it's probably fitting after running all the mom and pops businesses off to other locals, having parking issues galore, that it's perhaps fitting they rip up the beautiful marble as well. Look what it is today, corporations with a parade of new faces everytime you walk in the door, and they fit right in with the culture crackheads and gang bangers that now hang out on the 16th St. Mall all day. Cherry Creek shopping district is much nicer, plenty of mom and pops, and now they started to change it and bring the same parking and other issues they created downtown out there. Soon the city will destroy it as well. The granite stones are but one of many issues downtown, it not a friendly place to shop as it was 20 years ago, it's rather a cold place today designed solely for the corporations that really have no face or personal touch. But they do have a big bankroll and politicians love the smell of big money, they'll sign their souls on the dotted line for big corporations with a bankroll.
February 5, 2009
5:52 a.m.
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Oh_Wise_One writes:
Louie- Good points but think about using paragraphs. This may be teh interwebs but we are still ed-u-emcated.
February 5, 2009
6:13 a.m.
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Superstar writes:
Too much money for something as trivial as granite tiles that look nice. Everyone is in financial trouble and $1 mil a year is going into pretty treatments? Downtown idealists need to get a clue. The grooves on these tiles are tough on women's high heels, too. Find a better way!
February 5, 2009
6:27 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
Sorry OH_WISE_ONE, thanks for your suffering my grammatical errors; one day I'll go back to school and English Composition will be the first thing on the list! I greatly appreciate your patience in deciphering my writting. Someday maybe I'll go back and take the time to pay attention. Thanks! :>}
February 5, 2009
6:29 a.m.
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DenverNo1 writes:
Two words: stamped concrete
February 5, 2009
7:26 a.m.
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mt writes:
Pay the meters and you won't get a ticket. Quotas or not, if you don't break the parking laws then you are fine. Nothing to complain about except how dare they write me a ticket on my expired meter. It is all their fault!!
February 5, 2009
7:38 a.m.
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Logical writes:
DenverNo1 - Nice thought, but how much might that cost, amortized over the next 20 years? Might that be equivalent to $1 million each year?
I am not saying stamped concrete is not a good idea; I am just saying that any alternative will also have maintenance costs. Concrete cracks, and when it does, the tar drizzles they put on the cracks are pretty unsightly. So, how much will it cost to re-pour the concrete in 8-10 years? It may not save anything, so why change it?
February 5, 2009
7:44 a.m.
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RlySrsly writes:
"DenverNo1 writes:
Two words: stamped concrete"
Stamped concrete is very slippery when wet. There will be buses and people sliding all over the place.
I like the pavers because they distinguish the mall from the surrounding streets.
And the $1M cost would mean more if they would compare it to the maintenance costs of other street surfaces. In other words, what is the incremental cost of maintaining the pavers?
February 5, 2009
8:03 a.m.
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BMat writes:
DenverNo1 writes:
Two words: stamped concrete
______
Three words: Love this idea!
This type of concrete wasn't readily available 30 years ago when the mall was built. There are endless patterns and colors.
The pavers don't resemble a snake's skin from the pedestrian perspective at all. And you can't fly over the mall so nobody benefits from clinging to the "bird's eye perspective" anyway.
Was that more than three words?
February 5, 2009
8:11 a.m.
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sundaychild67 writes:
I work on the Mall and see the gang-bangers taking over day by day. Even if they're not saying something absolutely sexist as you walk by, they're spitting giant disgusting wads of God knows what all over the place, and that's their BEST behavior. If there's going to be any kind of money put into revitalizing the Mall, I hope it goes towards getting rid of these no-good thugs.
February 5, 2009
8:19 a.m.
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FU writes:
Get rid of the mall buses. Problem solved. No more damage to the pavers. The mall would be more pedestrian friendly (don't have to worry about getting run over all the time). And a lot of people on the bus could use a good walk to burn some calories anyhow...
February 5, 2009
8:19 a.m.
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Finding_Forever writes:
Sundaychild, lets not forget about those smelly, runaway emo kids. I see them on the mall alot more than I see those thugs you speak of.
February 5, 2009
8:26 a.m.
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IRUNMAN writes:
Right on FU.
Totally agree.
February 5, 2009
8:28 a.m.
Suggest removal
youngman writes:
I live on the Mall...the pavers don't work and Concrete can be made to look just like them.....slippery...the pavers are..I see the busses skid in the rain on the pavers all the time let alone the snow...I used to like Sundays because it was a quiet day..not now...the paver fixers are there every Sunday...I do not believe they BID for the contract...if they do have the low bid its because they have several Illegals working for them...but I agree..... get rid of the busses.....make the fat and lazy folks walk....they need it
February 5, 2009
8:29 a.m.
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polyglot writes:
Gee since it is in danger and maintenence is $1 million a year we could make it part of the stimulus bill. If we change the surface won't we be putting people out of work in what is already a tough time.
February 5, 2009
8:32 a.m.
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eCurmudgeon writes:
Two comments:
1. Can't the "pavers" just be replaced with a streetcar-like rail system?
2. I've never been a big fan of the 16th Street Mall to begin with. You would think that with a metro-area population pushing three million people, we could have a vibrant downtown that was more than one street wide.
February 5, 2009
8:35 a.m.
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Diff writes:
I would not think the 16th street mall a tourist "attraction", would anyone travel to a city to see it's main business street. I like the mall, and the idea of it - put I think some practicality, and function should also be taken into consideration. How many people see the mall at the elevation nessasary to see this rattle snake pattern? Few tourists I am sure.
Let's have some information at what it would be replaced with - and what cost, and how much less to maintain. One million dollars per year for one street seems a lot.
Here is an idea as well - I bet the same pattern effect could be achieved with stained and colored concrete! I would further guess that over time there would be a cost savings. Granite is expensive!
One more consideration - just who are the people of this "nonprofit preservation group". ( a railroad grade and a power plant are tourist attractions??)
I think a good dose of practicality is needed here, $1,000,000 a year could buy a lot of diesel fuel and maybe help keep the bus fares at a price to continue and encourage ridership - is that not what RTD is supposed to provide?
Not street art.
February 5, 2009
9:13 a.m.
Suggest removal
JustSayin writes:
"just who are the people of this "nonprofit preservation group"."
History Nazis. Not property owners, not elected officials, and mostly not even residents of the places they want declared historic - busy-bodies who want to have a say about what happens to someone else's property. It's getting to be that everything old is wonderful, and anything mankind can do today is unacceptable. 'Old' in the mind of the 'preservationists' is usually anything 50 years and older. (I am now historic!! :>})
A group of 'preservationists' is inventorying a fairly bland 1960's Boulder neighborhood with an eye to a future historic district. Bad enough these are bland, energy inefficient frame homes, but they are somebody's private property, and attempts to change/upgrade/improve or raze/rebuild may be thwarted in the future.
February 5, 2009
9:15 a.m.
Suggest removal
Scott writes:
LOUIE: Great posting, even with the composition errors :-)
DenverNo1: Thornton put bricks on their showcase interchange, I25 & Thornton Parkway, when it was built. A few years later they had to replace all of the bricks with concrete.
Pavers, whether brick or granite, takes an immense amount of maintenance when laid on expansive dirt such as we have here in Colorado.
Scott
February 5, 2009
9:29 a.m.
Suggest removal
Diff writes:
JustSayin - Me too! wonder if we could get some "preservation" funds ...
I do think historic locations and preservation is OK, and has it's place but lets be practical ...
They want the historic 16th Street they would have to open it up to cars and cruising teenagers on Friday nights... and rebuild the "Scotchman" drive-in, serving "horrible burgers", "sloppy shakes", and Hot-Cookies" on North Federal as well...
February 5, 2009
10:08 a.m.
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Willy writes:
Agree the first priority is to get the thugs off the mall.
Has anyone been to Saguache? There's nothing there but a broken down gas station and a junk yard. I bet most don't even know where it is.
February 5, 2009
10:45 a.m.
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psychoChicken writes:
Diff, I like your thinking, why not go with the historic Larimer red light district as well? Think of all the tourism that hot spot used to bring to Denver.
February 5, 2009
11:32 a.m.
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SteveFesch writes:
The 16th street mail is actually one of RTDs success stories IMO. What they should do is scrap the $8 Billion dollar fastracks plan and build a similar Bus Rapid Transit system (similar to the 16th street mall) across the metro area.
The upside is the BRT plan would not create bottle necks in traffic like light rail does as vehicles can easily pass thru the BRT roads.
Another upside is we wouldn't be wasting money on outdated diesel technology. We could easiy adapt the BRT lines with the latest bus technology as it evoloves over the next 10-20-50 years.
February 5, 2009
11:37 a.m.
Suggest removal
woodwose writes:
The pavers are nice, but if it costs $1 million a year to maintain them that's too much. It makes as much sense to just lay down plush carpeting on the entire mall and replace it every time it rains or gets dirty. It's a public place, for cripes sake, it's got to be made more durable than it is.
That said, if you replaced the mall shuttles with streetcars, would that take enough wear off the pavers to make them last longer?
February 5, 2009
12:01 p.m.
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Diff writes:
psychoChicken - yeah!
that would be interesting - but these days it would licensed, taxed and regulated - and thus would just not be the same...
you know Edgewater, and Louisville once had the almost the same reputation..
February 5, 2009
12:28 p.m.
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psychoChicken writes:
Diff, those miners knew how to party
February 5, 2009
12:39 p.m.
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Scott writes:
psychoChicken,
I believe your last sentence should have read, "Think of all the tourism that G-spot used to bring to Denver" :-)
Scott
February 5, 2009
12:56 p.m.
Suggest removal
johnson writes:
Actually Willy, there are 2 gas stations,neither of which is broken down, a grocery store, a post office, schools K to H, an organic grocery/cafe and a liquor store in Saguache. What else do ya need?