GARCIA and FLORA: Blaming immigrants is no solution
Underlying weaknesses in systems must be addressed
By Jordan Garcia and Gabriela Flora
Published September 17, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.
There is certainly no question that the car accident earlier this month in Aurora that resulted in the death of two women and a child was a tragedy.
But as a community, we must be careful to not compound the tragedy of that accident by pursuing rash anti- immigrant agendas that would only serve to divide us further.
Many have demanded to know why Francis Hernandez was on the road at all. Because he had prior arrests and his immigration status was in question, people have asked why he was not kept in custody or placed in deportation proceedings. But in examining these questions, we need to recognize that both the immigration and criminal justice systems are broken.
The immigration system is plagued by backlogs and our national debate is so toxic that it has become virtually impossible for many immigrants to achieve their dreams of becoming full partners in the U.S. community.
And our criminal justice system is woefully ill-equipped to address the realities of poverty, mental illness and addiction that contribute to repeated arrests and crime rates. Therefore, focusing on one side of the coin distracts us from the totality of the issues at play.
In addition, calls for police to expand their role as enforcers of our nation's flawed immigration policy would actually exacerbate these problems, rather than prevent or quell crimes faced by our communities.
Many local law enforcement agencies oppose collaboration with Immigration and Customs Enforcement because it creates fear and mistrust and prevents the kinds of community-based policing that works.
Recent high-profile raids that have broken up families, leaving children without their parents, have already ratcheted up fear levels among immigrants.
Furthermore, racial profiling and police discrimination have contributed to mistrust of police by immigrant communities and other people of color.
Fear and mistrust of the police only serve to thwart criminal investigations. In fact, because of the laws our state has passed, immigrants have more and more reasons to avoid all police contact. The solution is not to deport drivers who lack legal status for minor traffic violations, but to create sensible immigration reform.
The federal government has repeatedly failed to pass fair and humane immigration legislation. Without the passage of comprehensive immigration reform, we are left with states, cities and towns attempting to find ways to grapple with a broken immigration system. And when the state or local response is to target immigrant communities through legislation such as that passed in 2006, the undocumented population is then driven further into the shadows.
The American Friends Service Committee believes that both our immigration and our criminal justice systems must be reformed to recognize the root causes of migration and the root causes of violence.
Exploiting this heartbreaking incident by shifting the spotlight from the loss of these three people's lives to the brokenness of our current immigration system is playing a cruel political game that will not heal our community or fix either the immigration or criminal justice systems. We need to avoid being distracted by divisive politics and focus instead on making all of our communities safer and healthier.
Until we do that, attempts to pass the blame around will only end in more tragedies.
Jordan Garcia is the American Friends Service Committee's Immigrant Ally organizing director. Gabriela Flora is the organization's Project Voice regional organizer.
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September 17, 2008
12:25 a.m.
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jrhino writes:
There is more than one reason to work extra hard to detain, detect, and deport illegal aliens. This tragedy helped bring the debate back in focus.
We have a metro area that is being overrun by persons not lawfully present in the United States. They are a burden to our benefit systems, Federal, State, and Local. They are scab labor undermining the most vulnerable Americans, the middle and lower middle class. They add more than proportionally to the crime rate in the metro area.
Many say the Federal government should handle the problem but our federal representatives, Deggette and Salazar, are blind to the problems and in fact exasperate the problem with their atnienforcement votes. Communities rightfully need to demand the removal of those not lawfully present and a reduction in overall immigration.
What is going on is not immigrant bashing but a cry to reduce immigrant numbers in Denver metro.
September 17, 2008
7:49 a.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
Garcia & Flora - While you are welcome in this country to speak of your opinions most people do not take very kindly to the anti-USA rhetoric that you spewed forth. It is a simple matter, not withstanding a few logistics, deport illegal aliens in droves. This action will make these polarizing comments unnecessary. Then we can forge ahead and find other ways to help repair our ailing economy. You know, it's kind of like one step at a time & I feel that ridding the USA of ALL illegal immigrants is the most important first step. Shortly after that first step I believe the second step is to vote all incumbents out of office that they have mishandled.
September 17, 2008
8:03 a.m.
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scottd3 writes:
We are not talking about immigrants, we are talking about illegals!
There is a big difference.
If your organization can't tell the difference then we know who is part of the problem.
The only problem with our immigration laws are they are not being enforced!
Secure the border and deport the illegals.
Get rid of the anchor baby loophole
Tell me something jordan garcia and gabriela flora.
Are you two be so supporting of illegals because most of them come from countries from south of our borders?
Scottd3@hotmail.com
September 17, 2008
8:20 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Nice twist by the authors. Nobody has blamed immigrants for anything. ILLEGAL ALIENS on the other hand have become the scurge of this nation! And yes, when another American citizen (three inthis case) have been killed by yet another criminal from the South, I will point my finger and play the blame game every time!
September 17, 2008
10:40 a.m.
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ewrc writes:
Thanks to Garcia and Flora for a thoughtful and humane response to a complex and often painful issue. Too many people consider undocumented immigrants to be criminals. The truth is, being in this country illegally is a *civil* offense (similar to a traffic violation) NOT a criminal one. If anyone is spewing ugly rhetoric, it is those making sweeping statements against a huge and wildly diverse population of human beings.
September 17, 2008
11:01 a.m.
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spanks writes:
Thanks to the authors for offering up some constructive dialogue about our broken immigration system from an honest and compassionate place.
There are lots of people hurting financially in the world. It's misguided to say the problem is the family members who set off to find work to support themselves-that's not the problem.
Toxic and hateful speech like some of the posted responses directed at migrants only keep our communities divided while letting corporations and governments who broker free trade agreements that set migration in motion off the hook. Those CEO's are laughing all the way to the bank while we fight amongst ourselves.
September 17, 2008
11:18 a.m.
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anderson writes:
jrhino: "What is going on is not immigrant bashing but a cry to reduce immigrant numbers in Denver metro."
sheepherder: "Nobody has blamed immigrants for anything."
Right. Whatever.
ScottD: "Are you two be so supporting of illegals because most of them come from countries from south of our borders?"
I'm sure it's because they recognize them as people. Not half, not three quarters, not zeros (illegals). I know that concept is really hard to comprehend for some people.
Flyfishdude: who appointed you arbiter of what is American? Lou Dobbs? Show us your certificate or show us that you're adult who lives in a society where different opinions are acknowledged and respected.
September 17, 2008
11:18 a.m.
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Jade12 writes:
As someone who has gone through the immigration process I can say without reservation, it is broken. We immigrants are too often scapegoated. We commit far fewer crimes per person than citizens yet the listening to the news you would never know it. Thank you for this refreshing piece.
September 17, 2008
12:09 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Once again, this discussion has nothing to do with Immigrants. This is a conversation about ILLEGAL ALIENS. Anderson, please try to stay with us here...
September 17, 2008
12:16 p.m.
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feralrom writes:
Irregular migration is a constitutional federal issue. States have no jurisdiction to regulate or enforce our federal borders. State attempts to criminalize the status of an irregular migrant muddy the water, but do nothing to solve the problems of a society where migrants are intermingled with citizens without regard to status. Such laws create a netherworld where criminals hide in the shadows of decent, hard-working citizens and migrants (both regular and irregular) all of whom are afraid to call the police because of the fear of blind self-defeating nativist over-reaction. Mr. Hernandez may have been inappropriately released by the state criminal processes. If the migrant community were able to call upon the police without fear of retribution, the police might have been able to find Mr. Hernandez after his release, but, as we embark on an attempt to create a permanent underclass in this country, we must recognize that we are also creating an environment where the police will get no cooperation from those who fear them. Small-minded xenophobes, you will earn your just desserts.
September 17, 2008
12:16 p.m.
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gary writes:
anderson the lawyer..
Great comments to try and counter the truth.
A person that illegally crosses into the USA..is an illegal alien.
Not an immigrant...period.
Right whatever???
Whatever what anderson??
Go ahead and define what a person is that breaks our immigration laws...
You are a lawyer..so you should know.
Nuff Said!
September 17, 2008
12:16 p.m.
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fatheromalley writes:
Jade12.. you are really misinformed or an agenda driven writer. It is not the immigrants that are "scapegoated" because to be an immigrant you must come into this country legally. With aliens that is not the case.
Those that have come in legally from the "git go" are overwhelmingly in favor of self deportation through the strict enforcement of our Nationalization Act Title8 (just in case you are as unfamiliar with this as 90% of our politicians) and secure borders. Those that achieved amnesty in 1986 and their children are less inclined to be that way, thus the weakening of America.
Immigrants are not the problem. Aliens (those that sneak in) are. Get is straight will ya?
It's an old communist trick to control the conversation with controlling the words used. Immigrants vs aliens?
For others I encourage you to try www.fatheromalley.com
www.grassfire.org
www.numbersusa.org
www.votesmart.org
www.knowledgepublications.com
www.jihadwatch.org
Or go to www.fatheromalley.com for click throughs to all of these..
Love to all,
Father O'Malley
September 17, 2008
12:23 p.m.
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anderson writes:
No, sheepherder, you can't draw a line and walk away. People don't lose their humanity because they entered the country illegally. Moreoever, the anti-immigrant crowd eschews any other sort of line drawing when it comes to condeming people who speak Spanish or talking about culture or U.S. citizens who are related to those here illegally, or anything else that.
September 17, 2008
12:33 p.m.
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anderson writes:
Gary, keep fantasizing about things you know nothing about. If you right wingers actually tried to think and reason about something, your head might explode from the cognitive dissonance.
September 17, 2008
12:35 p.m.
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anderson writes:
Excellent post, feralrom.
September 17, 2008
12:37 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Anderson...have you had your identity stolen? Have you had the IRS come after you for jobs you haven't worked? Have you had collections agents come after you for a debt in your name that you did not create?
I know you represent these people, and to be fair, I love hispanic culture. The general public doesn't realize just how many victims ILLEGAL ALIENS create in their quest "for a better life." If they did, I would fear a vigilante uprising in this country.
The line is already drawn, it called the border. Mexico should try to respect it a little more.
September 17, 2008
12:53 p.m.
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anderson writes:
sheepherder, don't pick up on Gary's fantasy about my work. No, I've not had my identity stolen. I do not fear working people, how about you?
September 17, 2008
1:11 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Anderson...sorry brother, I thought I remembered you saying that in the past...my mistake.
To answer your question, yes. When I got my letter from the IRS stating they were keeping my stimulus and refund checks for back taxes from a job I never worked (in Michigan no less), I was a little afraid. Supposedly I owe them over $10,000...still working through that little issue. As it turns out, some ILLEGAL ALIEN was using my SSN to work...go figure. The w-4 filed listed 5 dependents, thus the illegal was paying very little taxes. To top it off, my information has been sold on the streets and is being used by more than one ILLEGAL ALIEN.
So yes...ILLEGAL ALIENS working DO indeed scare me, and victimize me.
September 17, 2008
1:11 p.m.
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spanks writes:
so, if mexico respected the border like the US does, then mexico would:
-bully their way into another country and create 'free trade' agreements that would displace millions of local farmers
-impoverish entire communities as a result
-push for less stringent environmental policies so their industries can pollute waters and lands with impunity while they're at it
-pretend like you're a country that favors human rights, but what you really mean is go for profit over humanity every time
-create the most anti-working family, anti-immigrant rhetoric possible so that when people speak out against what's happening they'd be called 'unpatriotic'.
come on, let's be honest about the role that US foreign policy plays. people from mexico didn't just wake up one day and decide to leave their life and home country and risk death, racism, and exploitation just for fun. The US made a series of calculated decisions that significantly escalated poverty in Mexico. Mexico is suffering as a result of our decisions. People are migrating to survive and they don't have time to wait 10 years to do it the 'legal way'. It's time to make it right with an immigration system that acknowledges that and supports everyone's humanity.
how far away from 'home' will you go to survive when the wealth divide forces people closer to home to consider migration?
September 17, 2008
1:16 p.m.
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P_Denver writes:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The American Friends Service Committee believes that both our immigration and our criminal justice systems must be reformed to recognize the root causes of migration and the root causes of violence.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"Reformed" ... how?
To make it easier to migrate here? To make it easier for people to break the law and get away with it?
What's easier than the current migration system of "cross the border"?
What's more lienent than "get away with murder?"
What, exactly, is your proposal? I would like to hear your thoughts, other than " ... reformed ... ".
September 17, 2008
1:19 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Come on now spanks, the Mexican government is so corrupt the average Joe will never get ahead. It is up to their people, not us, to correct the problems with their country. Either that, or make it part of the U.S. I would love to live in the great state of Cozumel!
September 17, 2008
1:53 p.m.
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MdeG writes:
Yes, the system needs reform. Like "Jade" I have relatives in it, right now. It's ugly -- expensive, complicated, corrupt, and utterly unwelcoming to those who don't have jobs, advanced degrees, or relative in the US. It's a baroque, tangled, anachronistic, racist mess, and it needs a thorough clearing-up. What AFSC is suggesting is that a rational and humane system -- something that gave a greater-than-zero chance to working people -- would tempt fewer people to come without documents.
Father O'Malley, are you aware that the groups you list are on good visiting terms with white supremacists? See http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelr... for details.
I am really tired of the "legal immigrants all loathe illegals" line. Most immigrant families are of mixed status -- even where everyone's legal. Paperwork delays, age differences, etc. mean that people who live under one roof have different statuses. Many people who are now legal have once been otherwise. (FWIW, in the area where I live, until quite recently, the Irish were the largest undocumented group.) While there are some legal immigrants who have hard feelings about the undocumented, there are also many who understand their situation & are not inclined to blame.
I'm sorry for the family in this case, and for the gent who was harmed by identity theft. I don't think that mass deportation would solve either problem -- in fact it would make it worse, create such massive unrest in the "home" countries that we'd just have a new wave of refugees. Wouldn't do a lot of good in the end.
September 17, 2008
2:04 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
I have some degree of compassion for these people, but I have to ask why it falls on the United States to solve all the issues of the world. The Mexican government clearly has the most culpability in this issue, and does nothing to improve the living situation of it's citizens. Our tax dollars can only go so far.
September 17, 2008
2:09 p.m.
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SD_JD writes:
I have used this quote before -
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'.
September 17, 2008
2:14 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Mass deportation, a guarded border, and a realistic entry program would solve the issue. The feds need to step up on this issue.
September 17, 2008
2:16 p.m.
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skwas writes:
Garcia and Flora, thank you for your well reasoned and compassionate contribution to this important national conversation. We unfortunately have a long struggle ahead of us. One thing that many on one side of this issue seem incapable of even discussing, let alone addressing in any meaningful way, are the root causes of PEOPLE seeking economic refuge in the United States.
Much of the rhetoric seems to imply that these economic refugees come to this country for the purpose of committing crimes, spreading communicable disease, and ruining the economy of the United States. This being the case, it is understandable that people would react in such a strongly negative way out of fear. This fear, however, is unfounded.
If one takes a reality check, based on facts, one discovers that economic refugees commit crimes at a much lower rate than citizens, claims of dangerous communicable disease outbreaks caused by these PEOPLE (widely propagated by folks like Lou Dobbs and Bill O’Reilly) have been proven false every time they are uttered, and several economists have done extensive research on the economic impact of this type of migration and have found no statistically significant negative impact. In fact, most find that there are statistically significant net positive impacts on the overall economy (see the widely cited report “The Economic Analysis of Immigration” by Harvard economist George Borjas, or more recently a report by the Texas comptroller’s office available at http://www.window.state.tx.us/special...). The latter specifically debunks the myth that these refugees weigh heavily on our education, health care, and prison systems.
September 17, 2008
2:17 p.m.
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skwas writes:
Fatheromalley makes a point about language, which is important, but we must take a look at cultural stigmas around words. The word “alien” may be appropriate to this conversation by one definition (from my American Heritage Dictionary “1.An unnaturalized foreign resident of a country),but in the United States and particularly in the context of this debate, most cognitive frames point to definition 4, which is “A creature from outer space” which points directly to a framework of invasion. Those on one side of this discussion know that frame is in place and use the word alien very effectively. Linguistically, this word does not take into account cause. Refugee (only one meaning here “One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war”), or more specifically, economic refugee is the correct term because it incorporates the realities present in this debate by pointing to cause. Due to certain international agreements (NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO etc..) folks who have been able to make a living in a particular trade for generations are now forced to compete with heavily subsidized goods from across borders that are being forced on an indigenous population that simply cannot compete (one might be tempted to call them alien goods). This sets up a situation where citizens of a country that is already economically depressed have to deal with children who begin to go hungry and desperate circumstances call for desperate measures.
Fatheromalley thus paints those on one side of the issue as using a “communist trick to control the conversation with controlling the words used” without examining the old fascist trick to control the conversation with controlling the words used. One big difference I see between these two sides of the same coin (and I roundly reject the communist/fascist frame I am using to illustrate this point) is that one side wants to control language to foster understanding and bring people together who may have different skin tones and languages but commonalities when it comes to the need to work and get along, and the other side seeks to divide and conquer for the benefit of existing and oppressive social structures.
What happened in Aurora is a tragedy. What will compound this tragedy is allowing it to become another talking point in the hateful rhetoric of a shrinking yet vocal segment of our population who abandons readily available facts for visceral gut-punch reactions based on fear.
My apologies that this post is so long.
September 17, 2008
2:28 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
skwas...some excellent points, but I fear the rose colored glasses need to come off. The tragedy in Aurora is in small part why there is a national debate on this issue. Just like we scream when a sexual predator is let out of jail to re-offend, we scream on this issue. If the government would have done it's job, the predator would not have been out to commit the crime.
To top it off, there is no way to track illegal aliens, they just change their name at will. This has nothing to do with fear, or fear tactics. The illegal alien group is making their own name by victimizing our populace.
To state they are not a draw on our economy, and don't bring disease is fallacy. The Mexican government does not require the immunizations this country does. Thus, it comes with them, given in a very small percentage. I'm not worried about any outbreaks.
September 17, 2008
2:43 p.m.
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skwas writes:
sheepherder, did you go and read the information I referenced, or are you continuing your line of argument based on tired talking points? Somehow I doubt you read them as the Rojas report is quite dense and you responded 11 minutes after I posted. It took me quite a while to get through that mountain of facts and figures. If you are willing to check out some of my references, it would be great to continue this discussion, otherwise my valuable time is being wasted.
September 17, 2008
2:58 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
skwas...I have read reports that claim to suppost one side or the other. It's all blah, blah to me. FOX, CNN...it's all the same drivel to me. I know what I experience in day to day life, not what someone tells me.
September 17, 2008
3:17 p.m.
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skwas writes:
Thank you for proving my point. I am not talking about punditry, I am talking about deep, reasoned analysis of data. Even economists who have gone after the data with an agenda of finding information that supports your take on the issue have admitted that there is no way to make the claims that you are making based on the facts. I am sorry that you are dealing with the fallout from identity theft, which is a huge problem in the United States, but again NOT caused by refugees.
September 17, 2008
3:18 p.m.
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yaakovwatkins writes:
Yes the debate is toxic. Those of us who want the laws enforced fairly are called racists by the those who want to expedite only Hispanic immigration. You will notice that the Moslems facing problems with Ramadan in Colorado and Nebraska are not the ones who are a problem. We have a substantial Russian population in Denver and Aurora. But we aren't seeing the same problems with them.
The reason that the federal government hasn't passed immigration reform is that liberals looking for votes and big business interests oppose controlling our borders.
Now for the "root causes of emigration" discussion.
The root cause of emigration is that life stinks in one place and it's pretty good in another place. So people move. Latin American governments have not rid their cultures of corruption and other counter productive habits. Their people decide that life would be better elsewhere. So they move away.
We proved to the world's satisfaction in Iraq that the US can't forcibly change another country's culture. If the Latin Americans don't change themselves, we can't do it for them.
Nor can we accept every Latin American who wants to move here. We can't provide all American citizens adequate medical care and jobs. We owe it to the Americans without jobs and Americans without adequate medical care to provide for citizens first.
Unwanted immigrants are a problem all over the world. Australia, New Zealand, Spain, France, Malta, Greece, Canada, Argentina, Great Britain, Denmark, Norway, and other countries are facing unwanted immigrants. In some places, the solution is to kill anyone attempting to cross the border illegally. The US doesn't do that. Nobody seems to have a good solution.
The only solution I can envision is strict immigration control. The American Friends Service Committee disagrees. But they should be specific about their recommendations. How many from each country should we take and what standards should we be using?
My favorite bogus immigration argument is the the "who is going to mow your lawn" argument. My lawn is mowed very well by a woman who speaks English like someone born here. She does a better job than the guys who couldn't understand my instructions because their English was inadequate. She is considering taking advantage of the glut of large engine pickups to buy one and outfit it with a snow plow.
Calling me, and people who agree with me, racists won't help anyone. It will just make the argument more toxic. I'm not a racist. I just realize that life consists of setting priorities.
September 17, 2008
3:24 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
swas...refugees? They are not refugees, what war are they fleeing from? They are ILLEGAL ALIENS who crossed the border under the cover of night and victimized me!
I will read your link, then we can discuss later if this thread is still up.
September 17, 2008
3:30 p.m.
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anderson writes:
sheepherder: "To top it off, there is no way to track illegal aliens, they just change their name at will. This has nothing to do with fear, or fear tactics. The illegal alien group is making their own name by victimizing our populace."
This is one reason we need reform of the laws--so there won't be an underground--so there is no need to change names.
"To state they are not a draw on our economy, and don't bring disease is fallacy."
No it's not. I've several times posted testimony and excerpts and reports from economists suggesting that immigration boosts the economy overall. It's pretty clear their work would not be in demand if it didn't. Your mistake is in listening to fearmongerists instead of economists.
September 17, 2008
3:35 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Anderson, how would you explain hospitals having to close their emergency rooms down due to overuse/non-payment by illegals? Wages driven down? Open your eyes, it's right in front of you. Without getting into my personal details, I happen to work in a field where I see the immediate impacts daily. Not what I read, or who I listen to...what I see. I don't listen to either the fearmongerists (what is that anyway:)) or economists. I rely on my own experience to form educated thoughts.
September 17, 2008
3:44 p.m.
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skwas writes:
Refugees are those seeking refuge. It does not mean from war. The definition gives the example "as in times of war" but there are several reasons one would seek refuge. Those who are targets of their governments, those who are escaping slavery or some type of unjust persecution. These are people seeking refuge from the economic realities of their home countries due to trade agreements signed by the government of the United States and the corrupt governments of their homeland. Do you disagree that these people are seeking refuge from these conditions?
September 17, 2008
3:44 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
skwas...I was shocked to read "imprecise due to unknown numbers" typed so many times in the report. The report read like they really don't have a clue what impact the illegals are having on their community, by by god...here's a sunny report!
September 17, 2008
3:47 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
I would disagree any of it is caused by anything the U.S. has done. We give them millions (billions?) in aid every year. As far as slavery, they come here to be enslaved by our lowered wages due to their presence.
September 17, 2008
3:50 p.m.
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skwas writes:
And as far as hospitals having to close their doors, I would examine the health care system in this country for clues as to why that happens. I am not trying to open another debate here, and to be honest, I don't have the time for it today, but you seem convinced that the presence of these refugees is the cause of everything from identity theft to a failing health care system. It is called scapegoating.
September 17, 2008
3:56 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
No skwas...I agree it is a combination of issues that effected the emergency rooms. I would say the illegal problem is a contributing factor, though not the only one. Illegal immigration just happens to be the topic we are discussing. Thanks for the intelligent debate, it's nice to have a debate without name calling on this site!
September 17, 2008
4:02 p.m.
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skwas writes:
sheepherder, I don't recall that phrase in the report I cited, so I just opened it up (I have it in .pdf) and did a search and that phrase "imprecise due to unknown numbers" does not appear once, nor does anything close to it appear. The words imprecise and unknown appear ZERO times.
September 17, 2008
4:10 p.m.
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anderson writes:
sheepherder, utilization of emergency medical care is a fiscal issue not an effect on the economy. All I'll say about that now in order to be brief is: you can't take a slice of pie and call it the whole.
On wages, as I've said many times before, the studies show that undocumented immigrants have an impact on those occupations in which they work, i.e., the unskilled, uneducated (< hs) who work in construction, services, or agriculture. See if that fits the circumstances you know. We are a pretty educated nation and not everyone works in those industries so the wage effect (and even that is disputed) is affecting a small part of the workforce. The other side of the coin is the rest of us benefit from overally cheaper goods and services. I'm not saying anything about what our policy should be. That's just the effect.
September 17, 2008
4:12 p.m.
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4gColoNative writes:
Mr. Garcia and Ms. Flora,
Thank you for the thoughtful contribution. It would be better, though, if your call for reform was accompanied by at least one specific change. With the work you do, it should be possible to provide specific suggestions.
Of course, all you had to do was assert that something isn't quite right and some people will start ranting that you're "spew[ing]" "anti-USA rhetoric" and taking off on their own shrill tangents.
September 17, 2008
4:17 p.m.
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anderson writes:
Fearmongerist: anyone who makes false or misleading statements for the purpose of raising fear, anxiety, or loathing in others.
Mrs. Kravitz was a mild mannered example in the TV show Bewitched.
Gladys Moorhead was an excellent example in the film Dark Passage (1947).
Sen. Joe McCarthy (1950-52)
Today's examples of course include almost all talk radio shows, O'Really?, Beck, Dobbs, etc.
September 17, 2008
4:17 p.m.
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skwas writes:
I do not respond to people who resort to name calling. That only sets us back as not only a society, but as a species. Thanks for the debate and good luck to you sheepherder.
September 17, 2008
4:25 p.m.
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anderson writes:
Several people have asked for examples of reform. I can't speak for the authors of the essay, but clearly the Senate has produced bipartisan proposals in the last two sessions that are comprehensive reform. Won't please everyone, but that's how the legal process often works with contentious issues. Adults acknowledge there are different views and try to reach a solution. On the other hand, we can just be mad about it, and it obviously suits many to do so--gives them someone to blame for whatever ails them I guess. The "deport em all" strategy is clearly not supported by most Americans.
September 17, 2008
4:38 p.m.
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P_Denver writes:
Here's why I was asking for specifics -- because I have posted this in the past and have yet to hear a valid agrument against it:
Here's the practical solution to this issue:
1. Bring the troops home from Iraq, to create the needed manpower for step 2.
2. Secure the borders. Use the men and money from (1) for the resources
3. Grant all currently-illegal aliens the right to permanent residency and right to work in the USA. Included in this is the provision that they will NEVER be able to become citizens and vote. That will prevent either political party from recruiting any new voters from this process.
4. Enforce the existing laws regarding employment of illegal workers, and basic wage and workplace provisions.
This will:
a. Provide us with the workforce we need to handle the agricultural (and other) jobs most Americans won't do
b. Keep families together
c. Prevent a new influx of illegal immigrants
d. Not cost us anything -- the new taxes generated by the newly-registered workforce will pay for the program
And, please: I don't want to hear from the "no taxation without representation" folks (regarding step 3) unless you have a better plan. All other comments and refinements are appreciated.
Best regards,
P_Denver
September 17, 2008
4:49 p.m.
Suggest removal
skwas writes:
P_Denver, your plan seeks to create a permanent underclass without a voice whose sole purpose is to work, more commonly known as slaves.
September 17, 2008
4:50 p.m.
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hoopoe36 writes:
P_Denver
>agree with 1
>agree with 2
>no way; this will create never-ending legal issues. no one will acquiesce to being a second-class resident non-citizen forever. this just creates massive future headaches like Reagan's 1986 amnesty did.
>agree with 4; i'd like to see big fines for employers and actual enforcement of the laws
>note on 4a; there are very few jobs Americans won't do if paid properly. If the minimum wage had kept up with inflation over the last 40 years we'd still have American teenagers doing yard work, working at fast food joints, etc. I did it back then and remember when the only jobs Americans wouldn't do were agricultural labor. And one of the driving forces holding down wages for fast food work, lawn work and construction work over the last 40 years is an oversupply of (cheap illegal alien) labor.
>4c. maybe; but giving illegals permanent residence is likely to encourage an influx of illegals a la the Reagan amnesty. Most illegals probably don't care too much about getting to vote.
September 17, 2008
5 p.m.
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SD_JD writes:
hoopoe36 makes an excellent point. Under Reagan's amnesty, agriculture workers enmasse got green cards. Once legal, do you think they stayed in the agricultural fields? Heck no, they moved up a la the "American Dream". Amnesty only begets more illegal immigration. Enforcement of the border and existing laws is the only way to get control.
September 17, 2008
5:23 p.m.
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hoopoe36 writes:
yeah, SD_JD, it's a supply and demand issue. Until we cut off the supply of cheap illegal labor and end the demand for cheap illegal labor the problem continues. Close the borders and sanction the employers.
September 17, 2008
5:28 p.m.
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P_Denver writes:
skwas:
"Slaves"? No way! They would be ON the radar, not under it. They would receive all the same protections we now have, and they currently don't. I feel that there should be some sort of consequence for breaking the law and coming here illegally. Loss of voting rights is appropriate. We currently do this to felons - American citizens in prison. It's not new.
Anyway - they came here to work, not vote. If their concern was voting, they would have come legally. They want to feed their families. And I want them to do so safely and legally.
hoopoe36 & SD_JD:
Step 1: SECURE the BORDERS. You are both absolutely correct. This will fail miserably and encourage more illegal activity unless this is done! Am I forcing them to remain in the fields? No way! The more ambitious will move up, and -- with their higher salaries -- pay more taxes to support the program. Of course, if the minimum wage increases, maybe they will remain in their chosen field (pun intended) -- but it will be their choice.
Thanks to all for the great comments!
September 17, 2008
5:31 p.m.
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4gColoNative writes:
P_Denver
2. Secure the borders.
- with what, a super long, deep and high wall? There was one in Berlin ... it's gone now. And it took a lot of resources just to guard that relatively short section.
3. " ..... prevent either political party from recruiting any new voters"
- why is this bad? Are you assuming bad for you personally? That these people will all vote the same and vote counter to you?
September 17, 2008
5:42 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
I would say P_Denver has the best solution so far. It takes into account the people here today, but also recognizes that they did it illegally.
anderson...I had a smiley face after my question about fearmongerer...but thanks for the definition. Always enjoy the debate!
September 17, 2008
5:44 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Anderson...by the way, I agree fully that there needs to be some kind of reform to bring them out of the shadows, and make their identities known. I am certainly not against that. Deporting them all is just unrealistic, but change is needed. P_Denver has some excellent insight in my opinion.
September 17, 2008
5:46 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
4g...I think the reason to take the voting out of the picture is so neither party can pander their votes. Makes sense when you think about it.
Sorry for all the posts, I have a dog in this fight so I tend to like to talk about it.
September 17, 2008
8:57 p.m.
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slocatch writes:
Can't forget what Jon Salzar looked like while rideing his horse when campaining. He would look just the same upon his horse while ankle deep in erroded soil from the Valverde neighborhood (greenvalley). And with that smirk on his face to say he is proud of these hard working people. If they were so hard working, wouuldn't the neighborhood reflect it?
September 17, 2008
9:26 p.m.
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coarizona writes:
The system has failed us. I don't care to read anymore sob stories about the plight of the illegal immigrants. Only hope is a mass reduction and border enforcement. There is a legal way to enter and that is the way the system should work. Neither party will address this issue. Both parties endorse amnesty.
September 18, 2008
12:24 a.m.
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redwhiteandBLUE writes:
Garcia and Flora..your letter is pure..BLATHER!
September 18, 2008
6:54 a.m.
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slocatch writes:
Why do they come over illegaly when it makes them illegal? The front door is only 16 lanes wide. They have more faith in the coyotees then themselves. The coyotees have more faith in our leadership then we do. Wonder why our city leadership welcome it? All the others in this illegal process get a cut. Why wouldn't our officials. Something is not correct at the top of our government, could it be LaRaza?
September 18, 2008
8:14 a.m.
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roger44 writes:
if the 20 million illegals would go to Mexico City and raise heck, maybe their leaders would change things. Course, doesn't seem to work here either, been after ours to do something and they continue to sit on their dead butts.
September 18, 2008
8:16 a.m.
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JSeifert writes:
Yes it is their fault if they had not broken U.S. Law and came here it would not have happened. Its more your fault them maybe the Illegals because you no borders Socialist help make it happen you fight deportations you fight the patrolling of our borders and you fight enforcing of the laws. I think its time to maybe hold you accountable for your actions maybe its time to put people like you on the front lines for every crime or death you people that support these illegals cause. If you hate us so much move you are not welcome in My country.
September 18, 2008
8:22 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Blaming the illegal aliens is 100% correct. Had they followed our laws, this country would not be having this debate right now. Who are we supposed to blame? There is a system in place, they chose not to follow it.
September 18, 2008
8:41 a.m.
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MdeG writes:
P_Denver: "Anyway - they came here to work, not vote. If their concern was voting, they would have come legally. They want to feed their families. And I want them to do so safely and legally."
and Slocatch: "Why do they come over illegaly when it makes them illegal? The front door is only 16 lanes wide."
Neither of the above is true. Legal entry to the US is extremely difficult, unless you have money, an advanced degree, special skills, or relatives inside the US with the proper status to petition for you -- and only rather close relatives can do this. Even so, it takes years and costs a lot of money. There are a few countries that don't send very many people here that get a break on the diversity visa program, and there are other exceptions, the Cubans with "dry feet" being maybe the most conspicuous.
If you have none of the above -- if you are, for example, a Mexican farmer put out of business by NAFTA -- then you are competing with people from all over the world for a grand total of 5000 visas per year. Your chances of success are well under 1%. The application fees run to several months' pay, which for people who are barely making ends meet is a real stretch. As I wrote above, I recently petitioned for a couple of my own relatives. The fee for the medical exam from the Embassy-sanctioned doctor was **per person** the equivalent of about two months' pay in their home country, about 10 times what a visit to a fancy specialist in their capital city costs. And of course you spend this with no guarantee of success.
People loan other people funds to pay coyotes because they have a reasonable chance -- not a certainty, but a reasonable chance -- of arriving alive and being able to work and repay the loan. Nobody will loan an ordinary working person the application fees for a legal visa, because the chances of success are abysmal, and the chances of a working person being able to earn enough at home to repay the loan are really poor.
I asked one of my formerly-undocumented acquaintance once why he hadn't come legally -- he's an educated person, a former banker in his home country, and a religious person who I know did not break the law lightly. He guffawed and said, "I'd have died first!" That's the story for most of the people who come without documents.
This is one of the ways that our "legal" immigration system is driving undocumented migration -- and I make no apologies for my use of that term. If our system were sane, rational, and affordable, then people would use it. Many of the people who are here without documents are perfectly reasonable people who would have been admitted without question a century ago -- and whom we should have admitted.
September 18, 2008
9:02 a.m.
Suggest removal
BigSky182 writes:
As journalist are you deliberately misconstruing the sentiment just to sensationalize your story or are you actually too stupid to understand the difference between an illegal alien and an immigrant?
There is NO "anti- immigrant agenda".
You state:
"it has become virtually impossible for many immigrants to achieve their dreams of becoming full partners in the U.S. community."
This particular case is an ideal example because in this particular case the illegal alien had over 15 years to "achieve [his] dreams of becoming full partners in the U.S. community" and instead he chose to become a career felon with zero regard for American Society, Citizens, and Law.
September 18, 2008
9:36 a.m.
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P_Denver writes:
MdeG
You are correct - the current system is still not very good. My wife and her parents, brothers and sisters all immigrated here...legally. I know the process.
Yes! We should fix it. Yes! There should be special "work" visas, easily and painlessly obtainable, for "migrant workers" ... which do not fall under a normal quota system. This would encourage those who want to come here and work for the season, then go home and enjoy the fruits of their labor with the knowledge they can return again next season ... legally!
September 18, 2008
9:41 a.m.
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P_Denver writes:
4gColoNative
"Secure the boarder" -- I'm open to suggestions. A minimum of troops in place, with advanced electronic detection devices, would be my first thought.
No wall, please! I lived in Berlin when the wall was still up. In fact, our apartment was literally a stone's throw from it. I do not recommend repeating it.
But ... consider: how much illegal immigration would still be taking place if my other suggestions were followed? If there were an appropriate number of "migrant worker" permits issued, EASILY, every year? If the working conditions for the migrants were monitored for compliance with our laws? If the migrants could come and go easily between seasons? Why would people still try and cross illegally? I think it would minimize the issue, don't you?
September 18, 2008
9:49 a.m.
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JSeifert writes:
It does not matter who the are or where in Mexico, They could have been the President of Mexico for all I care the problem is they broke our laws coming here and they continue to brake our laws here thats call repeat offenders. Its time to call them what they are CRIMINALS, UNWANTED, UNNEEDED, CRIMINALS. I suggest going to another country and try what they are doing say like MEXICO. They have a harder system then we do. No its time to take a stand and get ride of the unwanted Criminals. Its time to put people that help them in jail for aiding a Criminal to escape justice.
September 18, 2008
11:55 a.m.
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JSeifert writes:
My family tree runs the gambit German, French, Japanese, Swedish, English, Jews , Cathlics, Baptist, Budist and non believers, Soldiers , policemen, firemen, even enemy POWS, Poor, rich, middleclass you name it going back to 1840 and they have one thing in common they all - everyone of them came to this country LEGAL they put up with the paper work,the medical testing, they worked hard, they studied hard, they stayed out of trouble and they learned ENGLISH.
Are we as a nation to give special treatment to people south of the border just because they speak Spanish and are brown skinned, are we to forget over 200 years of law in this nation because of them? I say NO. If my Family can do it the right way so can they. If you want to be part of this nation of mixed religons, mixed races, if you really want to be American you can do it right.
They are not special they are not in danger, even people from war torn countries have to go through the paper work. Even Jews coming out of a war torn getto's just out of death camp had to fill out the paper work and go through the process so tell me again what makes them so special.
Why should we forget their crimes? Why are the any different then anyone one else? Why are they Special?
September 18, 2008
1 p.m.
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Hola writes:
Blaming immigrants is no solution - How about when they kill people? Can I blame them then or is that still the fault of the 'broken system'?
If someone is here illegally they should be in jail or deported. No country can maintiain it's sovereignty if it's continuously invaded.
September 18, 2008
1:02 p.m.
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Creative_N_Denver writes:
Sounds like most readers are not against a legal immigrant, only ones that enter into the country illegally. Well it isn't going to stop any time soon. As long as there are people out there that will hire them, they will come. We also have to think about the people out there that are supplying the stolen social security cards and other forms of Identification.
Also, when schools allow their children in and hospitals provide medical - well you get the main idea.
Most of you already know that the Hispanic community is growing faster than any other culture here in the United States. Our government needs to stop paying for all theses babies that are being born (all, not just hispanic babies) Each woman before leaving the hospital is told about birth control, if they refuse to use it, than they should pay- if it is for religious reasons, the church should pay-
We are forced to learn a language that we have no ties to, in order to find work now. Other countries are watching and don't understand why we allow this to continue. Our own government is allowing this to happen and in many cases promoting it. Many like me came to this country for a chance to own a home, some land and grow. Now in order to grow we have to learn a different language and adjust to someone elses lifestyle. Not bad if everyone would respect each others differences.
It has gotten way out of control and there is really no solution. Most of us here in American welcome immigrants and would help them adjust to our culture. But this is a new type of immigrant, one that has come into America illegally, how does our government fix this problem? They look the other way-
September 18, 2008
1:12 p.m.
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4gColoNative writes:
P_Denver,
re: Secure the Border
Haven't thought it all through, but cannot see a high degree of success with trying to stop entry across the desert. Of course, the conditions in the desert are a formidable obstacle by themselves.
I have sympathy for the misguided (literally sometimes!) people who go with Coyotes and might die a horrible death in the desert (or in container trucks or whatever).
Would like to see a joint US-Mexican emphasis on apprehending the Coyotes and convicting them of high crimes and jailed for a long time--in a secure, un-corrupted Mexican facility.
This is where I'd advocate spending a chunk of money.
September 18, 2008
2:02 p.m.
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mythoughtsonly writes:
I am all for someone coming to America to do what they feel they need to do, what I am against is the fact that they take someone who lives here legally and uses their identity. I do believe that is fraud and one can be prosecuted. So with that said, I know that something needs to change; I have no have ideas that would make someone stand to attention to listen to what I have to say; but if you are ok with them here without documentation the please offer you social and person information so that I do not have to spend time and money that is very precious to me, trying to reclaim my name and repair what has been damaged due to the fact that someone TOOK something that did not belong to them in the first place. I have worked hard for what I own, and I can say that I have never taken what was not worked for, offered, or given to me. Again, let them use your information and identity.
September 18, 2008
2:24 p.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
You're right!
"Blaming (illegal) immigrants is no solution."
Throwing them out and keeping them out is.
September 18, 2008
2:32 p.m.
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P_Denver writes:
4gColoNative
Re: Secure the Border
I agree - it's a tough thing to do.
Do you agree that if - IF - we open up a comprehensive work visa program and make them easy to obtain that people might actually use the visa system, enter legally, work the jobs, and return home at the end of the season?
Call me optimistic, but I think that if this was the case we would have far fewer people risking their lives, trying to cross illegally. Why would they, if the visa system works?
Plus, don't forget, part of my proposal was to enhance enforcement of labor laws, and crack down on people who still employed illegal workers. So even if they crossed the desert, they would be less likely to find the employment they seek.
I want to see this situation fixed, and I think I have the basis for a good plan. But the more of you I hear from the more well-rounded it can be!
Keep the commentary coming. Thanks.
September 18, 2008
3 p.m.
Suggest removal
4gColoNative writes:
re: work visa program
I think people who really know the general motivations, aspirations and intentions of these people--by "infiltration"* into their ranks--need to educate most of the rest of as to whether the majority of these people really would adhere to the US designs of a guest worker program.
Without this knowledge, my first guess is that these people really want to stay full-time in the US and just keep remitting money back to family. They wouldn't come and go as the US would want them to. And pretty soon they have the anchor baby and it's a foregone conclusion.
* I use this term just as shorthand, knowing it has a negative connotation
September 18, 2008
3:06 p.m.
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SD_JD writes:
MdeG - you state that legal entry into this country is extremely difficult and exspensive. Believe me legal entry into the US is a lot less exspensive than hiring a smuggler to bring you across and you don't run the risk of being raped, robbed, murdered, or left to die in the desert.
September 18, 2008
3:46 p.m.
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P_Denver writes:
The RMN is probably going to shut down this blog soon. I think I'll repeat the main points in a Speakout piece and open it up to a wider audience. I'd like to refine this a little more before I start writing letters to congressmen and senators.
Thanks to all who shared their thoughts and opinions!
September 20, 2008
12:36 a.m.
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redwhiteandBLUE writes:
MdeG
So because it is so expensive and difficult, the only option is to violate the Rule of Law and enter USA illegally ?
There are alot of people who have paid thousands of dollars and jumped thru hoops just to be legal..some are still waiting. That's no excuse to cut in front of them. It's not fair.! And to start demanding and expect amnesty, That's not fair either.
It's too late to fix or reform the system. We are 'overpopulated"
already. There's no space for anymore from any country. We already have shortages of jobs, water, grid lock in traffic.etc, .SHUT THE DOOR ALREADY..NO VACANCIES..! ALREADY FULL!
September 21, 2008
7:05 p.m.
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Rangerjoe1 writes:
Don't you just love when illegal immigrant lovers have so much compassion that the are willing to take from American workers so they can feel all warm and fuzzy inside. As long as "they" are not hurt, just someone else. Just put the names and address of people that are willing to TARGET American workers and will get our money back, plus it will help our economy, mainly the workers the warm and fuzzy clowns are attacking. Since you have also targeted the working classes children, put down where there children go to school. It would be like a visit to mexico.
September 24, 2008
9:40 a.m.
Suggest removal
slocatch writes:
Makes you want to vote independant just because! This is the single most important issue to the working class of US CITIZENS.