Somali refugees forge new lives after life in war
By Lisa Ryckman, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published September 13, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.
Photo by Dennis Schroeder / The Rocky
Somali Muslims arrive for midday prayers at the Greeley Islamic Center on Eighth Avenue. They have become a familiar sight on the streets of Greeley, where many Somali refugees settled seeking meat-packing jobs.
For survivors of Somalia's scorched earth, Colorado looks like the promised land.
"Once you've been in Africa, coming to America is beautiful, believe me," said Aziz Dhies, 34, who came to the United States 10 years ago and now works as a nurse at a community clinic.
Civil war, drought and famine have ravaged the country in the Horn of Africa, displacing or killing hundreds of thousands in the last 20 years. The fortunate few granted U.S. refugee status arrive with little more than the clothes on their backs and the hope in their hearts, ready for a fresh start far from the chaos that forced them to abandon their homes and flee to refugee camps in Ethiopia or Kenya.
"We see often in refugees an attitude that has a lot to do with survival, what it takes to get along," said Anders Snyder, acting community services administrator with Lutheran Family Services, a nonprofit refugee support agency. "It creates hard work and (the attitude) that I'll do what it takes and figure out my situation."
Colorado's Somali refugees, most of whom have moved here in the last 18 months, are part of a "secondary migration" of people who were resettled by the government in other states and then chose to move here, Snyder said.
They've been drawn to small towns such as Greeley and Fort Morgan mostly by the promise of $12-per-hour meatpacking jobs at JBS Swift and Cargill, which make it possible for them to pay their bills and have money left over for relatives still in Africa.
"Somalis don't like to have welfare, food stamps, stuff like that," Dhies said. "Somalis are very independent people. We get here to work, to support the families back home."
There are about 400 to 500 Somalis in the Greeley area, said Christine Marston, an economics professor at University of Northern Colorado and board chairwoman of Realizing Our Community, which supports outreach to immigrant and refugee groups. Refugee status offers the right to live and work in the United States and eventually become citizens.
"By definition, we're talking about folks who have fled their country because of well-founded fear of persecution," Snyder said. "We're talking about loss of loved ones, loss of home, loss of dignity. That's a common bond refugees share."
They also share a deeply held Muslim faith at the heart of a labor conflict with Swift. The meatpacking plant fired at least 100 Somalis without warning this week because they walked off the job after being denied breaks to pray during Ramadan, a religious observance that requires daily fasts and multiple prayer sessions.
Muslim workers wanted to move their dinner break from 9 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. to follow the tradition of breaking the Ramadan fast at sunset. It's the second time in as many years that Swift has clashed with employees over Ramadan-related rituals; the first was at its Grand Island, Neb., plant. The union plans to file grievances for Colorado workers who want their jobs back.
The Somalis believe they are here because God watched over them on the difficult road out of their East African country, a journey that uprooted and separated families.
"I knew I was getting out of hell," said Ahmed Hirmoge, 20, who fled with his family south to Kenya. They were robbed and threatened along the way; a six-hour car ride turned into a weeklong ordeal. His cousin, Kamal Abdi, 27, went north to Ethiopia on foot, walking for days to get to safety.
After Dhies' mother was killed in a crossfire, his father went to Ethiopia, while Dhies and three siblings headed to Kenya. They started out in a car, which ran out of gas before they reached the refugee camp.
"We left everything behind and walked for three and a half days with no food and no water," said Dhies, who was 14 at the time. "I almost died. One of my brothers carried me on his back. It was terrifying."
He was resettled in Nashville, Tenn., where he met his wife; he spent a year in Denver and also lived in Minnesota and Washington.
"Once I came to America, I learned a lot of things I never knew before," Dhies said. "You have to get up in the morning. You have to go to school. You have to go to work. You have to get your life going. You have to work with the community, with people you're living in this country with."
Friendly, trusting people, the Somalis help each other, offering newcomers housing and transportation until they can get on their feet, Dhies said. Language is a problem, and that barrier is part of what makes the meatpacking jobs, which don't require English, so attractive, Marston said.
"Most of them didn't get a chance to (get) education because for the last 17 years, it's been a horrific life in Somalia," Dhies said. "There's no schools. There's no infrastructure. There's nothing in Somalia."
In Greeley, some new Somali arrivals spend their free time at Aims Community College, which offers intensive courses in English, said Alan Hendrickson, the school's international program director.
"I think they have a great desire to learn English and be a part of America," he said. "If they didn't, they wouldn't end up at my office."
Mohammed Nur came to Colorado from Minnesota 10 years ago and now drives a limousine and runs the Somali American Community Center in Denver, which offers after-school programs for Somali children. Most of today's refugees want to get the education that civil war has denied them, he said.
"A guy with a camel comes here and never done anything except sit under a tree giving water to the camel is different than the guy who comes from the city who understands that working hard, you can achieve the goal," Nur said.
Although he loves his adopted home, Dhies said, his goal is to become a doctor and perhaps return to Africa to help his people.
"I haven't been back to my country for 17 years," he said. "I miss everything - I miss the family, the friends. I miss my soil."
ryckmanl@RockyMountainNews.com
What is a refugee?
* A refugee is an individual granted the legal status by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency based on the person's "persecution, or fear of persecution, on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion." Refugees have the right to live and work in the United States and eventually can become U.S. citizens. There are 38,000 refugees and former refugees in Colorado. About 1,000 new refugees are resettled each year. About 2 million refugees have been resettled in the U.S. since 1975, 10 percent of the nation's legal immigration.
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September 13, 2008
3:13 a.m.
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CIS247 writes:
Don't get me wrong, not all Somalis' are bad... but...
I have family in the middle-Tennessee area and the middle-Tennessee region had Somalis' shipped in by the plane loads... literally thousands, if not tens of thousands.
Most Somalis got off the plane, were given a place to stay (paid for by the Fed gov), a new vehicle (again paid for by the Feds), Food Stamps & Welfare (again the Feds), and on and on (yep, the Feds)...
They were "encouraged" to take classes in learning English and how to integrate into "western" society (but was not required). Less than 1% came to any of the classes.
Not only were most not interested in integrating into American culture or society, many were/are belligerent, sexist, rude, and just plain ignored anyone and everyone else.
There was (and probably is still) a problem, that many Somali drivers would get into auto accidents (anything from minor fender-benders to major vehicle/property damage, DWI's, and even including motor vehicle fatality accidents) and not stopping to check on the victims, or any damage they caused, or anything else.
For many, their livelihoods in Somalia was centered around the illegal drug trade. Most never gave it up. The middle Tennessee area has seen a huge rise in the production, distribution, and use of illegal drugs since the Federal Government started shipping in the Somalis, along with other VIOLENT crimes. Many may have left the brutality of the war over there in Somalia for freedom here in the US. But many brought the brutality they learned over there, over here, with them.
If anyone bothered to check any of the local newspapers from the middle-Tennessee area, or any other areas where they have had a large influx of Somalis, you will see the same issues as stated.
September 13, 2008
5:17 a.m.
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roger44 writes:
The only reason they are here is because big business wants cheap labor. bring in a thousand and maybe 200 will work. Meanwhile, our unemployment rate goes up, citizens have a tough time making ends meet. I do feel for these people, but I would think it should be mandatory for them to be told exactly what to expect, this is not utopia, but a country that for the most part, has a work ethic. That ethic in the last 30 years has left a lot of our own citizens. The "me" generation is getting into the work force, and they expect things to be handed to them. I have a part time job, 64 yrs old, was hired because the kids attending local college want a job but fail to show up 30% of the time. They want the degree but think it should be handed to them. Crime rates have gone up because of illegals from the south, now more coming in from Africa, refusing to assimilate. Too much diversity being pushed in this country.
September 13, 2008
7:15 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
Yeah, and they are so grateful to be here, thier employer tried to accomendate them 2 years in a row with thier religious beliefs, they decided to walk out on him and stage a protest, and lawyer up. Throw them to the mercy of thier own people and government back in Somolia. I remember them dragging the bodies of American soldiers in thier streets celebrating thier deaths praising Allah. Send the ungratefully rescued back, "Allah Akbar" let Allah rescue thier sorry hides! See if Allah can do better, He was doing fine by them in thier own country, why they need our help? Ungratefull refugees; at least those from Latin America are grateful to be here, send them back, maybe they'll appreciate where they were! Allah can handle it as He always has before they came here to this God forsaken country called America! Get real tired of helping the ungrateful, Swift tried to accomendate their belief, and they still spit in thier face it wasn't good enough. Are these people even skilled labor in demand for immigration to even let them in to begin with? They didn't need our help in Somolia, Allah had it handled!
September 13, 2008
7:45 a.m.
Suggest removal
The_Punnisher writes:
If you are so happy to be rescued, then SHOW IT!! Start by learning OUR language, OUR customs and follow OUR laws!
That means putting the US FIRST and the dictate of ISLAM SECOND.
THEN you show that you are willing to assimilate, instead of bringing the BRUTALITY and survival modes taught to you by the Q'ran...( which was written by a caravan bandit who LIKED killing other people )
September 13, 2008
7:45 a.m.
Suggest removal
18Zwife writes:
"Somalis don't like to have welfare, food stamps, stuff like that," Dhies said. "Somalis are very independent people. We get here to work, to support the families back home."
I believe that coming to America to escape that sh!thole they’ve created for themselves and depending solely on America to dig them out of their own excrement, could hardly be characterized as independent. It’s not the land, it’s the people. What makes any one believe that these same people could possibly be good for America?
September 13, 2008
8:11 a.m.
Suggest removal
jbowen43 writes:
There would be a lot fewer refugees in the world if the U S government would stop interfering in the internal affairs of other nations. This has been our history for more than 200 years . Whatever the corporations want the government provides, no mater how many innocents die or are dispossessed. The Somalis are good people. Treat them well. Treat them with respect. They deserve it.
September 13, 2008
9:18 a.m.
Suggest removal
Darwin writes:
jbowen43 writes: "...The Somalis are good people. Treat them well. Treat them with respect. They deserve it."
While I wouldn't doubt that many of the Somalis are good people, accounts given by others can't all be wrong. The idea that people "deserve" something has gotten way out of hand. Is it any wonder we have so many "entitlement" programs. People don't automatically "deserve respect", they need to earn it by learning the language of the country, by obeying the laws, by not remaining cloistered in their own little community but assimilating into the larger community, stop using religion as a club...etc. Respect is a two-way street. Don't get a job than expect your employer to accommodate your beliefs and/or customs.
As mentioned before, I would agree that many Somalis are good people but to look at Somalia and its 10s of thousands rapes and murders - lack of respect of human life - no jbowen43, they are not, for the most part, good people.
September 13, 2008
9:22 a.m.
Suggest removal
fastnloose writes:
It's all the United States fault.Turn the page and give some real solutions.We don't step up and save our nation ,we will be just like the other pathetic nations in the world. "They deserve it" we deserve better from these morons who come to this great nation!
September 13, 2008
9:35 a.m.
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RoyalPayne writes:
This is what we get as a result of the USA trying to help everybody. Another group who wants all the rights of a citizen but brings the old country and it's culture with them. They do not really want to be Americans, just take what we have to offer.
The time has come to take care of our own, no more immigrants! Legal or otherwise. Since our politicans can't understand this, vote them out of office.
September 13, 2008
9:41 a.m.
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fastnloose writes:
What's with Greeley? It used to be a nice college town, now it seems like the dumping ground of the world.
September 13, 2008
10:18 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
Jbowen43 writes,"There would be a lot fewer refugees in the world if the United States would stop interfering in the internal affairs of other nations". RIGHT ON! I couldn't agree more. Pull out of Darfur, let them settle it themselves. Somolia, same thing, we don't need to help, genocide is a wonderful way to keep human populations in check. Yes sir, if a nation wants to turn inward and kill each other, us sitting on the sidelines can be quite benificial for the United States of America. At least as with Somolia, we won't see them celebrating dragging our dead soldiers through the streets chanting "Allah Akbar!". I won't have to feel so ashamed for helping them come to our terrible ungodly country, they can stay where they were. Tired of helping ungrateful people of other nations like Darfur, Somolia and others who love killing thier own people and others. Best thought I heard all day Jbowen43, we need to quit meddling in other nations, let thier government handle it, the people handle it, let Allah himself the God of peace settle thier problems. Just don't bring them here if they are this ungrateful to spit in our faces. Yeah Swift is racist, look at thier employee make up, all white guys right? Swift tried 2 years to accomendate these people to no avail, now they can keep on walking; right up the ramp to the jets taking them back to Somolia with our sincerest apologies for as Jbowen43 says, "...interfering in other countries internal affairs.". At least our soldiers won't be dying for the ungrateful and having thier bodies dragged through the streets. I believe Allah is quite capable of helping them without our assistance. They quit thier job, went to the mosque and prayed, now let Allah handle it and help these people find more suitable work back in Somolia where human life is a premium! Right on Jbowen43, I couldn't have said it better myself!
September 13, 2008
10:33 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
America has refugees from Latin America, Asia, Russian jews, immigrants from Ethiopia, everywhere I can think of. none are as ungrateful as these Somolians. Cubans and latinos are building proud empires in America, asians are meekly making thier way to the top of the pile, ethiopians are quietly and politely coming up from the very bottom and making thier way. I have found it a pleasure to do business with all of them at sometime or another; I am happy to spend my money with them as they are savvy businessmen who truly earned thier way in America. This group up in Greeley, so unhappy, send them back and quit meddling in thier country's affairs.
September 13, 2008
11:55 a.m.
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T1anda writes:
When is ENOUGH..ENOUGH???
September 13, 2008
12:15 p.m.
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18Zwife writes:
• T1anda writes:
When is ENOUGH..ENOUGH???
…when the immigrant/illegal alien takes the life (never mind your job) of someone you love. Until then, we continue to sit on our apathetic politically correct butts and say, it’s someone else’s problem. Same sh!t—different day.
September 13, 2008
3:31 p.m.
Suggest removal
BuzzBomb writes:
Here we go. Somolias walk off their jobs and are shocked--shocked!--they are fired. Now comes the predictable, maudlin RMN story, " but we are beleagered refugees." Oh. please!
September 13, 2008
4:31 p.m.
Suggest removal
jrhino writes:
Individually each of these may be high quality people. It does sound like their need is genuine. Collectively they are scab labor, brought in by the Colorado Democratic State Legislators, to lower the wages, hours, and working conditions, of America's high quality people in need; Colorado's middle and lower middle class. Call Diana Deggete, Joe Rice, and Paul Weismann and let them know you want to put American workers first.
Then tell the national Republican's you are sick and tired of their failed foreign policy that puts that Samolia and it's people in peril. Ron Paul may be right after all.
September 13, 2008
8:26 p.m.
Suggest removal
arby writes:
Louie
You stole my thunder. I agree with all you wrote.
Please note the rule of "I before E except after C" doesn't apply to the pronoun "their" which is a contraction of "they are." My sister teaches English and beats me over the head if I miss a comma. So I have to pass it on.
Good comments from you as usual.
September 13, 2008
8:55 p.m.
Suggest removal
The_Punnisher writes:
I like Arby's....8-)...
My motto: You get RESPECT when you EARN RESPECT....
These Somalis put RELIGION ( It means TO BIND, look it up ) before REALITY.
Religion doesn't put food on the table, unless you can figure out a way to con other people into paying you...
" The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man.
But it's lovely work if you can stomach it. "
" The Notebooks of Lazarus Long "
RAH
The Q'ran does religion one better; it justifies KILLING to get what you want...
September 13, 2008
9:37 p.m.
Suggest removal
seeker writes:
The Somali refugees are victims of the “War on Terror”. After the overthrow of a Somalia dictator by Islamic militants the country was in chaos. In 2006 Ethiopia sent in Ethiopian troops who drove the militants out. This only caused more violence on all sides. The Somali government troops, Ethiopian soldiers and then the eventual rush of Islamic insurgents into Somalia erupted into violence and slaughter. Does any of this sound familiar? The citizens of Somalia became the victims of this horror. It has been reported that the Ethiopian soldiers have raped, tortured and murdered countless Somalis.
Reporters and human rights groups tell stories of girls and women being raped by 20 Ethiopian soldiers, babies and children’s throats cut in front of their mother’s eyes, the slaughter of entire villages….the bodies left rotting in the homes and streets and torture too despicable to describe. These are documented cases. These victims have been forced to walk away from their home land to escape certain death.
This is where the rubber meets the road. The “War on Terror” is supported by many people in this country and in the world. Well, meet the “collateral damage” of this war. Take a good look. These are the survivors of our policies and the policies of many other countries. We back and support Ethiopia who is primarily a Christian country and a partner in the “War on Terror”. If we intend to fight this war we must support the victims created by it. Thousands of refugees are Iraqis, Kurds and many others; from all over the Mideast….everywhere the war on terror is being waged.
Merging new cultures into established ones is a challenge. Sadly some of the people in the U.S. are still struggling to overcome unresolved issues of race that go back to the attempted eradication of the Native Americans by white Europeans and later the African slaves that those same Europeans brought to work their land and create their wealth. Is it any wonder that we can’t find a way to accept and tolerate these unusual and tragic souls?
So they don’t dress like us or look like us. They don’t speak English yet. They’re Muslims. They’re different. And so were we all as the ships came to Ellis Island during the great immigrant flood of the 1800’s. But we eventually learned the language and we merged into the melting pot that is America. New Americans join our military everyday to fight and die for the United States and their blood is just as red as ours.
You don’t have to like them. You don’t have to have them over for a bar-b-que. You don’t have to invite them to your daughter’s wedding. But you do have to acknowledge that we hold some responsibility in helping them establish some kind of life. If you can’t acknowledge that then I feel sorry for you. You have lost the one true thing that makes America the greatest country in the world. America stands for freedom….for everyone.
September 13, 2008
10:42 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Shooting at our troops a few years back, now enjoying our freedoms, what a country!
September 13, 2008
11:04 p.m.
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LOUIE writes:
SEEKER, it's true I owe the American Indian, not only for past injustices but those occuring today as Gail Norton could more than elaborate on. I don't owe the Somolians anything, thier ungrateful nature is thier right, it's our right to send them back as well. For the price we pay in helping them, thier thanks was a extremely ungrateful display. Our soldiers bodies were dragged through the streets so they could have a life in our country. They came here and unlike any refugee I ever saw enter America, they spit on us and our culture. I don't want someone here who hates our culture, religious tolerance, and the people of our country. Swift tried for 2 years to please them, they walked out, they got fired, now send thier ungrateful hearts back to Somolia. Let Allah feed them and care for them like he did our soldiers being dragged in thier streets. Allah more than has the ability or doesn't he?
September 14, 2008
7:32 a.m.
Suggest removal
becket writes:
Arby:
Looks like you're going to get another knot on your head.
their
1. a form of the possessive case of they used as an attributive adjective, before a noun: their home; their rights as citizens; their departure for Rome.
2. (used after an indefinite singular antecedent in place of the definite masculine form his or the definite feminine form her): Someone left their book on the table. Did everyone bring their lunch?
they're
contraction of they are.
September 14, 2008
8:11 a.m.
Suggest removal
bubba writes:
I think Swift should do as old man Monfort did, years back. Do any of you people remember? Or are you new to colorado or are you too young? Monfort had problems with employees trying to unionise his plant and after many, many frustrations he simply shut down the plant and all lost their jobs. He had the b---s to handle the job. We need Swift to handle it the same way!
September 14, 2008
10:51 a.m.
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arby writes:
becket
I knew I made a mistake as soon as I read my post. It was too late to change it though. Anyway the spelling was the point and I used the wrong example. I'm trying to get that post deleted before my sister reads it.
September 14, 2008
12:26 p.m.
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Halima09 writes:
I'm a somalian and i couldn't agree more. They are the most rude, and disrespectful people you will ever meet. Not all of them are bad but majority are. It's ashame because i don't even like somalians for those reasons and plus they don't like are kind. Its because of different races within the somalian culture and it never stops. They were many crimes committed in Minnesota for those reasons. If they still want to commit crimes and kill they can easily go back to their country and do that. what amazes me the most is that they are never thankful. They never apologize for their mistakes. They think that they are ALWAYS right no matter what the situation is. The other day I had went to their meat store in Aurora and gave them my order. Not only did they give my order to someone else but they refused to give me my money back. The man said "Be Patient Woman you need Allah. Your parents didn't raise you with discipline. Look at you trying to be like an American, you're nothing but a disappointment." That's my experience with the somalians and you can see why I dislike them and they deserve to get fired and shouldn't be allowed to have their own businesses and I still don't understand why the Gov't is helping them after all the things they've done.
September 14, 2008
2:15 p.m.
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LOUIE writes:
Arby, let it go, I only have an 8th grade education, I have many people with fabulious degrees handing me thier resumes everyday. If it weren't for the hacks giving me a bible, I'd really try thier patience. I could care less, I went from prisons to palaces, and there is a lot more to intelligence than spelling and grammatically correct writting, trust me. Some need education to suceed, others have native intelligence without formal education, that leaves society wondering how they suceeded beyond the the educated.
September 14, 2008
5:25 p.m.
Suggest removal
happymike44 writes:
Yet another reason for closing the border.
This scum destroyed their own country and we bring them here.
How stupid are we as a nation to import possible terrorists to our shores.
Why do we want or need these people here.
We need to deport this scum and save America.
These people have no loyalty to us or our country.
Also do you really think they will obey our culture or its laws.
Then you are mistaken and need a wake up call.
Thanks to the republican party these people are now with us forever.
They will raise a new breed of criminals and dope dealers.
All in the name of big business and cheap labor.
This is just another form of the old slave trade.
September 14, 2008
7:43 p.m.
Suggest removal
seeker writes:
Louie
I'm not saying you owe the Somalis anything.I am simply explaining the true story of why they're here.They're not what you & others think they are. I understand your outrage at the atrocities committed against our troops in Somalia but you're confusing the Islamic militants/insurgents & the actions of the Ethiopian soldiers with these people.They were the victims of these insurgents & Ethiopian soldiers & the unintentional victims of the war on terror.Likewise the majority of Iraqis were the victims of Saddam & eventually insurgents of the war on terror.They're not the bad guys & yet they are targets of the rage being directed at them for acts of violence they did not committ. They were & are a people who are being systematically tortured & slaughtered.They fled their country to avoid genocide.
They ended up in refugee camps. World organizations help to find a place for them to live.The Pres.of the U.S. decides how many refugees come to the U.S. Right now the number is 70,000 annually. Home Land Security processes them after they have physicals. They do background checks on them. They have no say as to where they are going.They didnlt ask to come here.They didn't want to leave their country but they were being exterminated & fled to survive. If they could go home they would.They're not typical immigrants. They're not illegal aliens sneaking into the U.S. to find employment They're refugees.They won't be sent back.Their Visas won't be pulled.This is a different situation than everyone is freaking out about.
Knowing the truth should make a difference in how we view them. It should take the hate down a notch or two.My concern is to diffuse the potential for violence & aggression. Try to imagine how frightened these people are right now.The level of hate that's been directed at them is overwhelming.It scares me and I'm just reading about it.We need to chill out & let the union & Swift work through this.Swift's made no statement regarding this issue.We don’t know all the details yet.
Halima09
The correct term for a person from Somalia or of something from or of Somalia is not “somalian” but rather “Somali”.Being Somali I'd expect you'd know that.Also,pointing out your self-loathing & toward your countrymen means that you don't understand how hate & aggression towards “undesirable” groups works in the U.S. By the logic of such biased Americans you're one of “them” & thus become the object of the hatred.So although I doubt your claim that you're Somali I believe that your comments are the worst of all the blogs I've read over the last week on this subject & I have read some horrid & obscene comments. It's most tragic to hate oneself for being what you are. I feel sorry for you Halima09.You hurt your people’s struggle to survive in a hostile country & in doing so you only hurt yourself.
September 14, 2008
8:13 p.m.
Suggest removal
Sundog writes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB3-nE...
This is a war against our religion(s) and our very lives. Wake up.
"Knowing the truth should make a difference in how we view them."
The above video will give you a clue.
September 15, 2008
12:54 a.m.
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seeker writes:
Sundog
These men are in uniform. They are not like the people of whom I speak. The people in Greeley are simple people. If what you are saying is true then the mission in Iraq is a false one and is therefore a waste of the American taxpayer's money (borrowed from China) and the lives of brave American soldiers.
Why then would we be risking everything to save the Muslims in Iraq? To fight the insurgents is one thing but the reason we cannot withdraw is our concern for what happens to the people of Iraq who support the democracy that we leave behind.
Somalia was a democracy in the 1960's but a coup ended the dream. If the Muslims of Iraq are worth saving then so are the victims of the slaughters of Somalia. You are blaming the wrong group of Muslims. Not all Muslims are bad. By your logic all Christians are bad because Hitler was a Christian and he was responsible for the slaughter of 6 million Jews; all Christians are bad because Timothy McVeigh was raised a Christian and killed 168 innocent people in the Oklahoma City Bombing. I can go on & on. The Crusades, the Inquisition …. So many acts of violence committed in the name of religion. It does not mean that every Christian is evil and it does not mean that every Muslim is evil. Islam and Christianity are religions based on peace. It’s hard to believe that this is a nation a lot of people believe is based on “Christian principals” and yet there is so much violence here; we are surrounded by the cruelties of man against man.
Do not confuse the Somali refugees in the U.S. with Islamic insurgents. If you do, then the logic for Iraq is lost. If we are not there to help establish a democracy and we don’t really care what happens to the Iraqi people when we leave then why are we still there? They are after all only Muslims, your apparent arch enemies who are hated by you and your fellow bloggers spewing divisive words and aggression, although it seems you are for the war in Iraq. Perhaps you are confused about why we are there in the first place. Democracy and the freedom of the Iraqi people are our mission; the “Muslim” people of Iraq; same religion as the insurgents in Iraq. Kicking out the insurgents is the end game since there were no 9/11 hijackers in Iraq. Never were. Knocks the heck out of your hatred of all Muslims unless you believe that the war in Iraq is wrong and we shouldn’t be there at all.
So please, know the difference between the real bad guys and the victims of the bad guys. Try to understand that not all Muslims are bad. It’s the extremists who are violent and twisting the meaning of their religion. Not the Somali refugees. If you hate them then why are we trying to save the Muslims in Iraq?
September 15, 2008
9:13 a.m.
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Sundog writes:
seeker- Quit putting words in my mouth. I don't have hatred for anyone. Instead of lecturing me, turn to the Q'uran and do some reading yourself. Read about the succession of mandates from the prophet and how the ones that appear later supercede the earlier ones. Read how the later ones have no sympathy for the other religions. You are trying to transfer the logic to the war in Iraq...not true. Those Americans died to keep the fight from happening here. Look at a map of the area and that will tell you why we are there.
If anyone is upset that American jobs are being exported, they should be doubly upset that workers are being imported. The reason is the same: corporate greed. I think we should boycott all Swift products beginning today. I'll never buy any, that's for sure.
And your examples of T. McVeigh and other are typical liberal tripe, we read it every day in these comments. Two wrongs don't make a right, and they don't justify bringing in foreigners to pad the bottom line of un-American corporate management and ownership.
"The prophet of Islam proclaimed that Allah has assigned the whole world to the momins. Not a patch was to be left for the non-muslims to dwell. But it seems that Allah's knowledge of geography was not so good. It looks like Allah's Prophet Mohammad had not heard of many lands beyond Syria, Iraq, Persia, Ethiopia, and Egypt. Notwithstanding this lack of geographical knowledge, the prophet divided the world in two contending spheres--darul-Islam(the zone of peace where the mulsims were the dominant element) and darul-Harb (the zone of war where the Non-muslims or non-muslims held sway). "
"On the contrary, all Zoroastrians, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Christians will be cast into a flaming hell, no matter, how pious and God-fearing they may have been. Piety has no meaning and value without believing in Mohammad and the greatness of his homeland."
-http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/engli...
See? It isn't my hatred, it is the hatred of muslims for non-muslims. Time for you to wake up. Wake up. Wake up. Quit apologizing and rationalizing for this religion. They will cut your throat. They are the ones who want to take over the world and you are less than a bug in their eyes.
September 15, 2008
9:16 a.m.
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Sundog writes:
In case I didn't make it clear enough for you, this war has already begun. Your apologizing for us will not stop it or slow it down at all. It will continue until the muslims win or are defeated. Period. Get your head out of the sand, please. It's not to late to join the vertebrates.
September 15, 2008
1:56 p.m.
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MsValeriah writes:
Sundog, the intensity of your hatred doesn't make you right, either. Seeker, thank you for trying to point out the truth. So many of the posters regarding this topic are so addicted to their anger and their hate that there is no getting through to them. It's a symptom of a disease that the whole world of humankind seems to suffer from.
It's very sad. Humankind seems doomed because someone HAS to be right, and someone has to uphold the one, true and only way, instead of us all universally working toward peaceful coexistence and cooperation among all peoples. The world is too small now for us now to do anything else if we are going to survive. Unfortunately, we will more than likely take the rest of this beautiful world with us when we go.
Armageddon is a choice that doesn't have to be made, people. Peace begins with each and every one of us deciding to open our hearts and our minds for the greater good of us all.
September 15, 2008
2:30 p.m.
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Sundog writes:
MsValeriah-
You're not reading the literature. You are ignoring what's in front of you. Talk about not getting through to someone! You have it precisely inverted:
"Humankind seems doomed because someone HAS to be right, and someone has to uphold the one, true and only way, instead of us all universally working toward peaceful coexistence and cooperation among all peoples."
This is an honorable and wonderful thought.
It is also what the enemy is using to defeat us. The tenets of their religion do not mesh with your thought. Your thought is not your own, it is a Christian, Hindu and Buddhist way of thinking first. I believed in it too, until I read the teachings of the other side. They do not admire your way of thinking. They will cut your head off for being an infidel, an unbeliever. If you do not believe in their religion, you are worthy of their disgust, second-class citizenship and yes, death. Those who fight this are trying to preserve you, unworthy though you are. One day you will see this.
If we had had this "discussion" in the late '30s or early '40s with your blind eyes we would be flying the swastika overhead now and you would not have any such opinions at all. Wake up. I want peace too, but it will never happen with the movement that is against us now. Wake up.
"My name is Jarle Synnevåg, I live in Norway, and I am member of a Norwegian organisation which fights islamic influence in Norway. We do not have many muslims in Norway, only about 70.000, but that is about 70.000 too many. They are a constant source of crime ranging from robbery, assault, raping and killing non-muslims, as well as forcibly marrying, circumcising and killing for "honor" their own women."
"The organisation I belong to is called FOMI and we support ANYONE who fights islam, be they atheists, jews, hindus, christians, buddhist or whatever, if you are an enemy of islam you are our friend. We have an internet site designed to inform the public in Norway about the evil nature of islam and the atrocities committed in the name of Allah. The site is at :"
http://rto73.0catch.com/index.htm
The above site is in Norwegian, so it will not mean anything to you, but the English quote is from one who has seen the light. Wake up.
September 15, 2008
2:36 p.m.
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Sundog writes:
I meant to include atrocities around the globe over the last two days...the last two days!
9/15/2008 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - A young hospital worker is murdered by Religion of Peace gunmen.
9/14/2008 (Ghazni, Afghanistan) - Six children are blown to bits by Taliban bombers.
9/14/2008 (North Waziristan, Pakistan) - A 70-year-old man is stabbed to death in the neck by Sunni extremists.
9/14/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - A 41-year-old laborer is shot by Islamists while riding his motorcycle home.
9/14/2008 (Mogadishu, Somalia) - Islamic hardliners celebrate Ramadan by killing a Ugandan peacekeeper and two others.
9/14/2008 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - Two doctors and their drivers are murdered by fundamentalist bombers while delivering vaccine to children.
Read more here:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
September 16, 2008
8:56 a.m.
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refugee_friend writes:
To all of you who are anit-immigrants/refugees into our nation, why don't you educate yourselves on their plight? Americans also lie, steal, cheat and kill. We are doing the exact same thing in Iraq. You want to count casulties IN THE LAST 2 DAYS?? Take a look at this blog I found. Here's a group who's trying to help make a difference to the many female refugees in the Denver area who are trying to find peace and independence for the first time in their lives. Consider donating. Focus on the positive, and put your money towards change. Bitterness only invites more of the same. Then YOU are just as much to blame for the unrest in this world.
www.refugeecrafts.org
February 11, 2009
11:51 p.m.
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Alicia writes:
So they don’t dress like us or look like us. They don’t speak English yet. They’re Muslims. They’re different. And so were we all as the ships came to Ellis Island during the great immigrant flood of the 1800’s. But we eventually learned the language and we merged into the melting pot that is America.
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"Somolians don't want to be like us...They think we are disqusting pork eaters....our women are whores because their vaginas are open. We are inferior to somolians".
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New Americans join our military everyday to fight and die for the United States and their blood is just as red as ours.
You don’t have to like them. You don’t have to have them over for a bar-b-que. You don’t have to invite them to your daughter’s wedding. But you do have to acknowledge that we hold some responsibility in helping them establish some kind of life. If you can’t acknowledge that then I feel sorry for you. You have lost the one true thing that makes America the greatest country in the world. America stands for freedom….for everyone.
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I see... Even for terrorists that want to turn America into a muslim country??? You are an idiot.
Young men vanish into Somalia, stirring fears of terrorist recruitment http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwor...
Yes, bring more of them to America???? Why idiot???
February 11, 2009
11:57 p.m.
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Alicia writes:
Post....
Arby, let it go, I only have an 8th grade education, I have many people with fabulious degrees handing me thier resumes everyday. If it weren't for the hacks giving me a bible, I'd really try thier patience. I could care less, I went from prisons to palaces, and there is a lot more to intelligence than spelling and grammatically correct writting, trust me. Some need education to suceed, others have native intelligence without formal education, that leaves society wondering how they suceeded beyond the the educated.....
What the heell are you talking about. Lighten up on the weed man.
February 12, 2009
12:23 a.m.
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Alicia writes:
To Sundog
Hi, I live in Minnesota. We are infested with somolians. Crime has increased. Rape of our girls has increased to crisis levels since the somolians have invaded Minnesota. There are over 70,000 somolians in Minneapolis alone. Of course areas are off limits now. Somolian gangs are rampant. Rochester, Minnesota used to be a preferred city to live in. Now the somolian plague has changed it. We are complaining of crime and rape now, and leaving Rochester is now being considered by people (never before).
I went to your link but I can't read it. I am American of German descent. I know English, naturally.
But how can I join FOMI? Please post here and let me know. I'm sure you will have thousands of interested contacts. somolians must go!!!!