One-day car ban eyed for downtown Denver
By Daniel J. Chacon, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published September 11, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.
Councilwoman Carla Madison
The city that gave motorists free parking on Sundays is now talking about a car-free Sunday.
Denver City Councilwoman Carla Madison is driving an effort to ban cars from downtown for several hours one Sunday this year, emulating car-free days in places such as New York City, Portland and Bogota, Colombia.
"One of the things we're trying to promote in Denver is that it's a walkable city, and this would probably be the ultimate in proving that it's walkable," said Madison.
A spokeswoman for Mayor John Hickenlooper said the mayor is "absolutely supportive of the idea." The mayor said he was committed to working with the downtown business community to make sure that restaurants and shops would benefit from the idea.
The proposal is still in the early stages, but it's already generating concerns that it would slam the brakes on business.
Councilman Charlie Brown said it's "completely contrary" to the city's efforts to attract more retail downtown. "To close down the heart of the city on a Sunday, that's looney toon," he said.
Thom Toomey, who waits tables at Dixon's Downtown Grill, predicts that his regulars would eat elsewhere.
"I'm just a server here at the restaurant, but I would have to say that I don't think that's probably a great idea because Sunday is one of our busiest days," he said.
Madison said she and Walter Isenberg, president and CEO of Sage Hospitality, got the idea after the mayor of Bogota visited Denver and talked about car-free days there.
The idea shifted into high gear when Madison read that New York City had closed a section of Park Avenue and connecting streets from the Brooklyn Bridge to Central Park to motor vehicles for three Saturdays in August.
Dani Simons, who managed the Big Apple's Summer Streets program, said that by and large, business reported no change or a positive one after the program was over.
Tami Door, president and CEO of the Downtown Denver Partnership, said her organization continually looks for ways to encourage people to use alternative modes of transportation.
"We will certainly play a part in vetting the concept and determining if it's viable and of value to downtown Denver," she said.
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September 11, 2008
6:34 a.m.
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blacksho89 writes:
*facepalm*
September 11, 2008
7:19 a.m.
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Brian1973 writes:
How about we think of this after we have a transit system that rivals new york or Bogota?
September 11, 2008
7:31 a.m.
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dolorosoverita writes:
We are a family of four that lives in Brighton. Sunday is our "Denver Day", when we go to the library, museums, other cultural events, or go shopping in the downtown area. Spending the day there means we usually end up having lunch and dinner at downtown restaurants. Mass transit from Brighton? That's a hoot! Expect us to bike 25 miles to get there? Uh....no. And with an autistic child, I'm not about to try to cobble together some park and ride dance.
If Denver doesn't want to allow parking for people like us, guess we'll be changing our Sundays to "Boulder Day", and taking our money there.
September 11, 2008
7:33 a.m.
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Oroboros writes:
I will make an effort to eat out downtown every Sunday if this is implemented. I live near downtown and walk down there to work every day during the week. The absence of traffic would be a nice change that I'd like to support.
September 11, 2008
7:46 a.m.
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intothelens writes:
Uh, dolorosoverita, howabout finding a place to eat in Brighton???
September 11, 2008
8:04 a.m.
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infidel91 writes:
"Madison said she and Walter Isenberg, president and CEO of Sage Hospitality, got the idea after the mayor of Bogota visited Denver and talked about car-free days there."
It's all fun and games until some politician gets an "idea."
September 11, 2008
8:07 a.m.
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LingLingfor_prez writes:
New York City has gridlock and a good transit system, Portland is simply anti-car, and not sure what the deal is with Bogota. We are not Europe and our streets were not built by the Vikings (very narrow streets.) Sounds like the 'being green' leftovers from the convention.
September 11, 2008
8:10 a.m.
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LadyBird112 writes:
Stupid idea.
September 11, 2008
8:29 a.m.
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Bagel writes:
"not sure what the deal is with Bogota. We are not Europe "
Were those supposed to be more separate comments than how I read them?
September 11, 2008
8:30 a.m.
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toocool writes:
Car free Sunday's have been in Denver for years, remember, every summer all the "walkathons, bikeathons, civic center street fairs, marathons, and on and on and on sometimes blocking traffic for hours from Colfax to Mississippi....show Madison the way to I-76 east!
September 11, 2008
8:37 a.m.
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LingLingfor_prez writes:
Sorry Bagel, there is a period there but I jumped into the Europe comment too quickly.
September 11, 2008
8:44 a.m.
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Bagel writes:
Fair enough. I expected you probably knew that Bogota was not in Europe, but when so many of our young people can't even locate Great Britain on a map you start to worry about people.
September 11, 2008
8:47 a.m.
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LingLingfor_prez writes:
LOL Bagel, Great what?
You are right.
September 11, 2008
8:47 a.m.
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mmannino writes:
This is just another obstructionist idea from those who want to control our lives. I am sure that car-free Sunday will make the green crowd very happy. They will feel good about restricting lifestyles. This proposed law, like many other regulations, accomplishes little with substantial costs. At best, this proposed law will discourage many from coming to Denver during ban period. Those discouraged will probably just drive elsewhere. Some ardent supporters of this ban may increase their presence in downtown Denver. Others will come to downtown when the ban is not in place. The ban will not save the environment, change the global climate, or reduce ozone problems in Denver. The ban will inconvenience many people, make some people feel very good, and possibly cost businesses lost revenue.
September 11, 2008
8:51 a.m.
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blacksho89 writes:
I can't find Great Britain on a map, either! I see England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.....
September 11, 2008
8:53 a.m.
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tjpatriot writes:
Instead of that, why don't we shut down all streets within a mile of the Mayors house and the Governors house, for ALL days, not just Sundays. (limousines exempted of course, but only if they're Hybrid)
September 11, 2008
9 a.m.
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vendari01 writes:
In the service, we used to say that one of the most dangerous things was a lieutenant with a map and a plan. These people must be Denver's lieutenants. What will a businessman do if he needs an employee or security officer to cover at the last minute, tell them to park in the 'burbs and walk in? For too many of us, the only practical way to get downtown is to drive. Nice gimmick.
September 11, 2008
9 a.m.
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Bagel writes:
Northern Ireland isn't part of Great Britain. And you forgot Wales.
September 11, 2008
9:04 a.m.
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SteveM writes:
dolorosoverita,
Your weekly travels to downtown are appreciated by all. However, if this plan were implemented it would not have to impact your plans. There are many other solutions than you, "...bik[ing] 25 miles to get there? And with an autistic child, I'm not about to try to cobble together some park and ride dance."
(a) You can take the 120 to the 120X and be there in around an hour. In the process, you can enjoy your family, read, learn trivia of the area, save gas, teach environmentalism, and teach your kids how to ride the bus.
(b) You could drive to a park-n-ride just outside the downtown and take the light rail in which is both fun and convenient.
(c) You could park on the other side of I-25 in the Highlands neighborhood and walk with your family across the new bridge right into downtown. Which is very cool and fun.
There are three solutions to your problem without a lot of thought.
It's kind of silly for people to be bashing this idea of closing parts of downtown to cars. (A) Nobody suggested it would be a weekly thing year round. (B) Nobody suggested it would be during the winter or when it's too cold to walk too far. (C) Unlike a lot of cities, Denver really does have the convenience of the free mall shuttle. So, if you had to walk a few blocks into the city core, from where you parked, for example by the museum campus, you'd have free transportation up and down the mall to make up for it. (D) Bashing an idea which has very good intentions before it's even gotten traction is pointless because (a) it might never happen, (b) lots of great ideas get bashed around here and once they're tried people love them (ie. Democratic National Convention), and (c) lots of great ideas get tossed around here that never materialize after tons of people have passionately worked to get them going.
You know what would be really nice? If people in Denver might stop being so self-important and start thinking about the community. In a community, people don't shoot down each other's ideas out of hand for their own selfish motives. Instead, they listen, and say, "Great idea, how can I help make that work." That's what being in a community is all about.
Finally, I don't think the negative posters give Denverites much credit for resourcefulness. If we need and want to get somewhere, car or not, we'll figure out a way. And, hey, we might even have a bit of fun doing it. Maybe we could have cross-country ski to downtown day! Please, everyone don't be such sticks in the mud. Your horrid negativity is painful.
September 11, 2008
9:13 a.m.
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M2 writes:
I love it! There's not that much traffic downtown on Sundays anyways. It will encourage more bicycles to be on the road. Alot of you KNOW you can use the exercise.
September 11, 2008
9:14 a.m.
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robertzimmerman writes:
"I can't find Great Britain on a map, either!"
Look for that island that contains Scotland, England, and Wales. I'm sure you can do it.
You tried to define the United Kingdom, which is all of the above, plus Northern Ireland, and bits and pieces like Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isles of Man and Wight (any others that I missed?).
September 11, 2008
9:17 a.m.
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dolorosoverita writes:
Uh, intothelens, it's about us spending money there (which I assume downtown businesses like), not eating out per se. Yup, even us here in ol' Brighton have been known to take in a show at that there Performing Arts Center, h'yuk!
Believe it or not, intothelens, LOTS of people who spend money at downtown businesses don't live there! It's true!!!!!
September 11, 2008
9:19 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
Tired of HICK politicians shoving people around? I am.
Note to politicians: You will face reality pretty soon.
The average citizen is NOT amused.
September 11, 2008
9:27 a.m.
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Fred writes:
Oroboros writes:
I will make an effort to eat out downtown every Sunday if this is implemented. I live near downtown and walk down there to work every day during the week. The absence of traffic would be a nice change that I'd like to support.
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Fred writes:
You sound a lot like the pro smoking ban folks who said they were going to go out to bars to make up for the revenue lost when the smokers had to go elsewhere.
It turned out to be empty promises for their utopian goal. Local mom and pop bars are dropping like flies. Then again....who cares about the collateral damage right??? As long as you get to cross the street without looking!
September 11, 2008
9:35 a.m.
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cpd writes:
Let's see now. Gas prices went up. People left cars and went to RTD. RTD now wants to raise rates, cut service, and charge for parking at park-n-rides. Hizzoner wants a car free day in the city. I hope he's talked to RTD. Don't give them another excuse to ill-serve the public. And, I hope he's considered how the disabled will get to Denver. Personally, riding a bike from County Line Road and South University to downtown is a bit much for me. Obviously the planners who have taken a page from Manhattan haven't been there. Its a whole different ball game. Get real City of Denver and solve some problems that badly need solving.
September 11, 2008
9:36 a.m.
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fleetmack writes:
While I personally like this idea since I'm a cyclist, the mass transit system in the Denver Metro isn't convenient enough to allow most people access to downtown unless you live near the light rail. Bus lines would be pretty long if everyone downtown used the buses to get there given the cutbacks RTD has implemented/planned for the routes. Save this until the light rail is completed to all areas of the city.
September 11, 2008
9:37 a.m.
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primafacie writes:
Great idea. Those of us who work downtown on Sundays can ... call in "Sorry, car ban."
Puh-leez.
September 11, 2008
9:39 a.m.
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fleetmack writes:
Side note: This does sound like an effective way to reduce (although slightly, but we have to start somewhere) dependency on foreign oil, which everyone seems to want to do but nobody has done anything to implement a plan to actually DO. Hats off to the idea, but the majority of people will not benefit from this without good mass-transit.
September 11, 2008
9:40 a.m.
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robertzimmerman writes:
RTD wants to "charge for parking at park-n-rides."
*Only* for people who live outside of the RTD tax area. If you don't pay, you don't play.
September 11, 2008
9:45 a.m.
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tjpatriot writes:
Hey SteveM, Speaking of Great Ideas, I just thought of one. Why don't you do whatever you want, and BUTT OUT of everyone else's lives? Did it ever occur to you that many people may feel that ideas such as shutting downtown Denver to car traffic is not only ridiculous, but also is only a "feel good" idea that does essentially NOTHING but infringe on peoples lives who may only be interested in having a bite to eat, or enjoying some of the shops, or trying to conduct some sort of commerce, etc.? You do realize there are people who might be elderly, infirm, or maybe just in a bad mood? I guess you have to be young, healthy, and in a state of euphoria to visit the Utopia of Denver on Sundays. I have an idea, why don't we pick one day a month and CLOSE ALL BUSINESSES IN COLORADO? Won't that save the environment? I'm sure the cost would be well worth it. In fact, let's follow this logic. If one day is good, then why is two not twice as good? What is the right number Steve, perhaps 15 days per month? I'm sure the planet would REALLY appreciate it. (actually, I probably shouldn't have written that. It might get back to Ritter, and he'll think it's genius)
Ideas are fine to kick around, but THINK about how it might impact and infringe on peoples lives, and about what RIGHT you have to do that.
September 11, 2008
10:09 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
How about a day where Colorado citizens just say we're not paying taxes for anything inside Denver city limits?
September 11, 2008
10:28 a.m.
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Willy writes:
We are actually paying these folk salaries to dream up this crap
September 11, 2008
10:45 a.m.
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cassidy22 writes:
Wow. People, if we want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, the number one step we can take is learning how to live without our cars.
I think it's a great idea, and I think once people realize that they CAN live without their precious automobile, they'll be liberated as well. And healthier. And have more $$ in their pockets.
Get over your outrage people, and just TRY IT before you bash it. Americans are spoiled rotten little brats. You can live without your car. It won't kill you. I promise.
September 11, 2008
10:49 a.m.
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cassidy22 writes:
Oh Bagel, Northern Ireland is very much a part of GB. It's the Republic of Ireland that is not, the southern part of their island. Read up on some of the struggles between northern and southern Ireland, the black and tans and their fight for independence from England.
September 11, 2008
10:51 a.m.
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IRUNMAN writes:
Great post SteveM.
The lemmings on here are in too deep and can't escape from their own selfish ways of living.
There is no point in writing on these boards as most of these people hiding behind computers believe they have the whole world figured out.
September 11, 2008
10:53 a.m.
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Bagel writes:
cassidy, you're thinking of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
Great Britain refers to the larger of the two islands, which contains England, Wales, and Scotland.
September 11, 2008
10:58 a.m.
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B1 writes:
Yet another reason to avoid downtown and Denver as a whole.
September 11, 2008
10:58 a.m.
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krvus writes:
cassidy22: So what kind of car do you drive- that is when you drive?
September 11, 2008
11:11 a.m.
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gr8fuldude writes:
I have a better idea. Why don't we take a certain street in Denver, like maybe 16th street, and we can restrict automobile use. Maybe we can run a free shuttle up and down and encourage people to use it to get to shopping, restaurants and events. We could even build up the downtown area around this line, and maybe put in light rail someday to intersect it.
September 11, 2008
11:28 a.m.
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jaybyrd writes:
Another reason not to bother going to downtown Denver, which the city mistakenly believes is an the entertainment mecca of the western world. I am noticing the large numbers who patronize the shops, bars and restaurants of the suburban town centers; I expect this trend will continue as Denver becomes more user-unfriendly.
September 11, 2008
11:30 a.m.
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Monica030 writes:
That's a good idea gr8ful! I wonder why they haven't done that yet...
September 11, 2008
11:35 a.m.
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marling writes:
Let's keep this in perspective. This would be a few hours on ONE Sunday. This is not the end of the world.
While I live close enough and would support such an innovative move, I can clearly see where this might fail in execution. We do not have enough people walking and biking currently to make downtown feel busy and metropolitan enough.
This is one instance where it might be a great plan that stumbles on execution, but I am willing to hear Madison out on this idea.
September 11, 2008
11:44 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Downtown Denver isn't really that big. As long as one can park relatively close to it, walking around the actual area shouldn't be that big of a deal.
The question is, do they have enough parameter parking to accommodate that on a Sunday? It's been some time since I've been to Denver on a weekend, I really don't know what the traffic is like there on a Sunday.
This article didn't really give many details at all.
September 11, 2008
11:53 a.m.
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chickenlittle1234 writes:
We are hopeless addicted to cars, which in turn feeds our addiction to oil. It's a classic "tragedy of the commons" where no one recognizes how the (small) costs of their own actions aggregate, eventually collapsing a system. But hey, we're all doomed anyway, so why not auger in with style, in a nice large SUV with a lycra-clad cyclist stuck to the grill. Then maybe in 10,000 years, the next civilization will have on on display like the sabertooth tigers are at the La Brea tarpits.
September 11, 2008
11:53 a.m.
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davies writes:
This is a great idea. This would be an effective way to show people how great downtown would be with no cars. The trouble is, how to get lots of people to come and see how great it is.
So here's how to make it even better: keep the actual day a secret. That way people will drive to downtown as they normally do, where they will be barred from entering, and then they too will be able to marvel at how great downtown is with no cars.
Remember those TV commercials with the two Guinness brothers? "BRILLIANT!"
September 11, 2008
11:54 a.m.
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infidel91 writes:
irunman -- apparently we don't need to have the world figured out, since collectivists like you and SteveM keep insisting that you've got it figured out for us. "Here's where you can drive. Here's what you can drive. There's where you can smoke. This is what your wages need to be spent on. This is the health care system we must all use. That's what you should eat. These are the community goals to which you must sacrifice your own "selfish" priorities. Blah, blah, blah."
cassidy22 -- maybe I could live without a car, but who are you to demand that I do so?
September 11, 2008
11:55 a.m.
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cassidy22 writes:
krvus - my husband and I share a VW Jetta TDi. It gets 45 - 50 MGP when we drive it. I ride my bike to work. We ride our bikes to town to get groceries on the weekend - we have a trailer on the back of one bike and we strap a cooler to it. OH, and we grow our own food, and sell food to our community.
So, yes, I practice what I preach. I don't expect that everyone can go as far as we do, but it would be nice if people thought for one minute about how they could reduce their fuel usage, and quit being so selfish and think of how to create a better community for us and future generations.
September 11, 2008
12:09 p.m.
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kali73 writes:
We already close streets for road construction, DNC, etc. and look what a mess that is! do they think about the residents with cars that have a right to leave their building or vistiors that would be totally mixed up with directions?
September 11, 2008
12:17 p.m.
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HopiMedicineMan writes:
I can't find Downtown on a map.
September 11, 2008
12:17 p.m.
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OldUrbanGuy writes:
Denver, the World Class City! Imagine the poor out-of-towner arriving on a Sunday dragging his suitcase down 18th to get to his hotel.
September 11, 2008
12:29 p.m.
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cassidy22 writes:
my gosh, Kali, get over yourself. No where in the article did it say the entire city would be shut down, and that they would block residents into their homes for the day. And visitors can get equally screwed up with construction and special events that block off streets. Why is everyone making this out to be the end of the world? For a few hours on a Sunday, certain areas would be blocked off to cars. Why is that so hard to grasp?
If a small step like this can help people learn to reduce their dependence on the automobile, I'm all for it.
September 11, 2008
12:29 p.m.
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WhadUsay writes:
LingLingfor_prez Bogata is not in Europe - please, look at a map.
September 11, 2008
12:31 p.m.
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windbourne writes:
Personally, I would love to see Denver convert more streets into outdoor malls. In particular, 14th, 15th, 17, and 18th.
This one day deal will not do much as long as we have pollution floating in from LA and china.
September 11, 2008
12:41 p.m.
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COLibertarian writes:
WhadUsay,
Continue reading the posts.....explanation provided.
We hear talk of community, doing what is right, etc etc. Yes those are very important and working as a community is very very important at any level. But please tell me how to accept the word BAN as working as a community? It does not. It does not promote positive discussion as observed above............... To dictate anything without first looking at positive forms of doing the same thing does NOT promote Community. Never has never will.
I would really like to hear what the downtown merchants have to say and how they feel about the BAN. Hell I take the bus down there when I go(because it is cheaper and more convenient in my specific situation) but this ban smacks in the face of freedoms.
You want positive feedback and positive volunteers, may I recommend the "carrot" rather than the "stick"
September 11, 2008
12:46 p.m.
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coarizona writes:
You can always tell when you live in a super liberal governing city.
September 11, 2008
12:58 p.m.
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davies writes:
Yep, windburn has the right idea: conduct long-term planning to convert more areas to pedestrian-friendly/auto-unfriendly zones, and let people/businesses property owners have a say in the process. Proceed accordingly.
September 11, 2008
1:18 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
Bagel, kids have problems with Geography when we get teachers like the one at Overland High that rant political science lectures in their Geography class.
September 11, 2008
1:23 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
I hadn't heard about that, is it a recent article?
September 11, 2008
1:27 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
SteveM, you're probably one of those who would force their opinion on a car free Sunday onto others. So let's get this straight...... go through the hassle of driving out of the way to get to 120th and I-25 to ride a bus downtown, and in the process, add another 1/2 hour to an hour onto the trip. Or, drive downtown and pay for..... however many people are in her family to take light rail a short distance (and it's not always fun..... if you've ridden light rail or bus, you may end up dealing with people you don't want to be around). The third idea you have is to park a ways away and walk downtown, because it's "fun". Well, if it's fun for you, feel free to do those things as often as you like. To many others, it's just another hassle in going downtown.
September 11, 2008
1:35 p.m.
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chickenlittle1234 writes:
coarizona -
Please explain. Pray tell, how is that you can tell when you live in a super liberal governing city? When someone floats a progressive idea? Well, then may I suggest you move back to Florence or Yuma or whatever Arizona city you don't think is super liberal?
September 11, 2008
1:37 p.m.
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HopiMedicineMan writes:
Why just Sunday? Why just Downtown?
September 11, 2008
1:38 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
Bagel, it was all over the news a few years ago. The teacher was taped by a student. The teacher was going off against Bush and the war in a Geography class.
windbourne, 17th and 18th are mainly business district streets that have nothing to do with shopping. Consider it the financial district of downtown.
September 11, 2008
1:41 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
Ohhhh, right. I remember that now. To be fair, I think it's great when a teacher strays off subject as long as it neutral and informative (or gets the kids asking questions). Rants are not good though, on any side of an issue.
September 11, 2008
1:57 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
I don't personally think this is a great idea, for the reasons mentioned that Denver doesn't have great public transportation options yet.
But to all those that decry this as another example of 'liberals' taking away your 'liberties'....this is nowhere in the same league as saying that you can't smoke, do drugs, or marry someone of the same sex. Those are all things that affect no one but the person doing them.
There is evidence that cars pollute, whether or not you believe this leads to global warming, the case could be stated that your 'right' to drive downtown interferes with my right to clean air.
Again, this is not to say I agree with the idea, but to say it impedes your liberties is only true if you're an anarchist.
September 11, 2008
1:57 p.m.
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djbrav writes:
Thank you SteveM and cassidy22 for your positive thinking and ideas.
Seems like too many people are stuck in the box and apparently their brains shut off when the key is removed from the ignition. I'm all for the ban - it would keep curmudgeons and fun-haters like tjpatriot out and from spoiling a perfectly good car-free day. Besides - all the nay-sayers probably live in the burbs and never visit downtown anyway.
September 11, 2008
2:09 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
The secondary reason for me driving is to piss off libs by congesting the roads and polluting the air. Denver is such a pain in the buttocks to drive anyway, so now I absolutely won't be going there, not that I did more than twice a year before.
They won't be getting my money...oh yeah, they don't anyway.
September 11, 2008
2:16 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
Oh yeah, and if I were a Denver resident or had reason to be there, I would absolutely be crying about this impeding my liberties, and while I am a libertarian-leaning conservative, that is a long shot from an anarchist.
Let the libs have their little havens like New York and Denver. We will just go elsewhere with the jobs, especially since the culture of Denver is not walking (unlike that of New York). When the jobs go, so do the people that lived there out of convenience (or even necessity because they can't afford a commute). Watch Denver empty out like Detroit and Cleveland!
Businesses, you will just have to close down on Sunday. Libs don't like ya anyway. Most Coloradoans are in too much of a hurry and like convenience too much to bother with not being able to drive. Me included.
September 11, 2008
2:20 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
Please explain to me how a ban on driving in Downtown Denver violates one of your rights.
It may be an inconvenience, and it may be ill-conceived, but a violation of liberty it is not.
Much like it is not a violation of your liberty to prevent you from driving your suburban up Long's Peak. You only see it that way because you are currently allowed to do so.
Many things we do now are not fundamental liberties, and many things that are illegal now ARE fundamental liberties.
September 11, 2008
2:23 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
spencerr, I find it incongruous that you profess to be libertarian leaning yet make statements like this "The secondary reason for me driving is to piss off libs by [...] polluting the air."
If libertarians were in charge then I would be able to take legal action against you for polluting my air.
September 11, 2008
2:26 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
You changed the discussion from liberty to rights.
It is not my right to do anything except what is layed out in the constitution and its amendments.
The enemy of liberty and freedom is government, who thinks it knows better for the average citizen than the citizen himself. I don't have the liberty to drive up the peak, you're right.
As a conservative I believe I have the liberty to do anything I want with one caviat; my right to swing my arm ends at the other guy's face.
The argument that my muffler exhaust bothers other people is the only one that holds water, but just barely, since driving in most of America is considered a necessary evil for getting around.
September 11, 2008
2:28 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
I don't think that libertarians advocate for frivolous lawsuits, either. You leave me alone, and I leave you alone. F*&K government!
September 11, 2008
2:29 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
It's only frivolous if you deny that pollution can harm another human, and I think science is against you there.
September 11, 2008
2:32 p.m.
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COLibertarian writes:
Bagel,
On its own it would not be a violation of liberties. BUT in context of what Steve and Cassidy are stating, It is definately not a Community thing either. If you have to ban something from 1 or more groups within a Community, how is that being a community of working together? It is not.
We do not know or have been told about the benefits vs the damages that this plan has at this stage. Right now we know that if makes Cassidy and Steve feel better. But that is not any analysis that leads to solutions. Again the Carrot vs the Stick analogy.
PUT FORTH Solutions that bring about positive change, not BANS because over 50% support. That again, is not a Community at its best.
September 11, 2008
2:33 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
By the way, I mostly agree with your main point, and am playing Devil's advocate, but I vehemently disagree that this particular situation could be considered tampering with your liberties.
And I don't like how you phrased this: "It is not my right to do anything except what is layed out in the constitution and its amendments."
I would prefer you (and everyone else) would say "It is my right to do anything not expressly forbidden by the constitution and its amendments."
September 11, 2008
2:33 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
No doubt that exposure to pollution effects us. However, here is the problem with your law suit; carbon dioxide is only harmful to human beings when it displaces enough oxygen in the air to cause physical asphyxiation. Likewise, carbon monoxide, caused by incomplete combustion, is only harmful when one is receives an acute exposure to it, not possible in the open atmosphere.
The black stuff that comes out, your lungs get rid of most of that on their own, and the soot from my single car passing by your nose two Sundays a year would be negligible.
September 11, 2008
2:35 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
COLibertarian, I don't think I said anything contrary to your 1st paragraph. I wholeheartedly agree.
September 11, 2008
2:35 p.m.
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lencho_elias writes:
Americans that care about America (America the beautiful countryside, not just the idea of nation) will support this idea.
We are a spoiled people that drive everywhere with no concept of how it affects the world we live in. More excercize, less cars, less addiction to oil, less damage to our world.... where's the negative here??
September 11, 2008
2:36 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
spencerr, again, I'm only playing Devil's advocate here. I agree that the lawsuit I mentioned is ridiculous, however you explicitly mentioned that you wanted to drive to pollute my air. That statement is what I took issue with.
September 11, 2008
2:38 p.m.
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coarizona writes:
Chicken, I live in Denver and Phoenix, AZ. It is easy to spot liberal leaning cities by their sanctuary status. Perhaps you should travel around a bit and see how unpleasant these cities are for crime, and law enforcement for illegals. I bet I have lived here longer than you and know what has happened to this town. Go hug a tree.
September 11, 2008
2:39 p.m.
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4gColoNative writes:
Dumb idea. And unnecessary. I've spent many Sunday hours downtown and often you'll see no moving cars on two or three full blocks of streets like 17th St. or Broadway.
Honestly, who thinks there's "traffic" in downtown Denver on Sundays?
September 11, 2008
2:39 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
Bagel, I was actually trolling for liberals with twenty minutes of free time with my first comments. You bit, but I was hoping one of the watermelons would bite. Keep in mind that most of my time spent on here is spent attempting to lure liberals into arguments.
It is not the libertarian way to sue anyway, so frivolous is an unecessary modifyer.
Your wording may be better. I don't spend a lot of time quoting the constitution and its amendments...I am guessing that there is mention made in it of it being ones right to do anything not expressly forbiden by government. That is better, I suppose...except that I think you are merely arguing semantics with me.
I am talking about rights, like miranda rights and the right to a fair and speedy trial.
I think your definition of rights falls under my definition of liberties.
September 11, 2008
2:41 p.m.
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COLibertarian writes:
OK lets look at this another way. This BAN of autos downtown limits the movement in the downtown area. It then makes us feel more cosmopolitan and environmentally friendly. This is a good thing right?
Maybe
Why Maybe? If I live 6 miles from downtown and am looking to go downtown and shop and enjoy my day there, but would like to drive(again I take the bus) for that specific day, would I not decide to travel to another area to do my shopping? Say Park Meadows Mall(pick mall of choice). Instead of driving 6 miles downtown, I am therefore doubling and possibly tripling my miles travelled. This IS NOT environmentally friendly.
In other words Don't BAN cars, but PROMOTE environmental conscienceness.
Banning by definition does take away from our freedoms as individuals. Promotion of ideas without banning allow for education and positive actions to take place.
September 11, 2008
2:42 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
Anyway,
I am merely playing to the typical liberal's image of a conservative. I am pretending to be what mytwosense imagines I am.
I do care about the environment, but not at the expense of basic freedoms and the well-being of the economy.
Good day to you bagel.
September 11, 2008
2:47 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
Note that I originally said take legal action, not sue.
Interesting....I admit I use them fairly interchangeably.
September 11, 2008
2:48 p.m.
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COLibertarian writes:
Lencho,
If it is such a great idea, then why do we BAN? Why not promote the heII out of this and give positive re-enforcement of what needs to be done?
IF You really want to be progressive and make change, use change that positively promotes ideas rather than telling folks what they can and can not do at specific times on specific dates.
This IS NOT nor SHOULD BE a power trip of being able to define attitudes. TEACH, PROMOTE, POSITIVE ATTITUDES. DONT BAN. That is the lazy way out of it.
September 11, 2008
2:49 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
Sorry, that was directed at your earlier comment.
Good day to you.
September 11, 2008
2:50 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
Bagel, I think it is reasonable to use them interchangeably if you like me are conservative.
I believe that liberty is one of my rights. I would argue that one of the main differences between a con and a lib is that libs believe that liberty is only a right if it is what government has decided is best for the individual and/or the collective.
September 11, 2008
2:55 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
Whoa!!! "libs believe that liberty is only a right if it is what government has decided is best for the individual and/or the collective."
Please don't lump all liberals into that category, because I take major offense.
September 11, 2008
3:03 p.m.
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dilligaf writes:
Going to a 4 day work week would improve many things.
September 11, 2008
3:24 p.m.
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jaybyrd writes:
"Whoa!!! "libs believe that liberty is only a right if it is what government has decided is best for the individual and/or the collective." Please don't lump all liberals into that category, because I take major offense."
If you take major offense, you're not a liberal. This is their creed...deal with it.
September 11, 2008
3:32 p.m.
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ladida writes:
Hey, wait a minute...aren't Sundays our free parking days?? That's not fair...make it Saturdays instead ;-)
September 11, 2008
3:52 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
jaybyrd, this is straight from wikipedia
Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market or mixed economy, and a transparent system of government.[2] All liberals — as well as some adherents of other political ideologies — support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.[3]
Here are the 1st four definitions from dictionary.com (see #4)
1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
Democrats and liberals do not have the same definition. Deal with it.
September 11, 2008
4:39 p.m.
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cassidy22 writes:
So someone, somewhere thought that maybe for one day, for a few hours, they may close off some streets.
And this has turned into an argument about civil liberties?
I still haven't heard why this would be such a tragedy? I am sure residents won't be blocked into their homes, so if that's the case, can't you plan around it? Just like you may PLAN to attend a concert or special event, if you don't agree, can't you just PLAN to do something else that day?
No one ever said they were turning Denver into an auto-free city for ever. They were doing it for a short time. Tell me, really, what is the big deal?
September 11, 2008
5:04 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
Dan2, in the interest of honesty, there are several ways I differ from strict Libertarians and go more towards modern day liberals. There are a few things I think private enterprise cannot be trusted with. These include healthcare and the environment.
September 11, 2008
5:58 p.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
Leave it to the nuts running Denver to try to emulate a third world country.
September 11, 2008
6:24 p.m.
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mrfxx writes:
It's been interesting reading the divided camps on this. Seems both sides could "give a little". Right now, all they are suggesting is one day THIS YEAR. As long as a date is chosen well in advance, it seems to me the folks who want to drive downtown can pick another date - and the folks who think this is just the best idea in the world can take advantage of that one day.
If it's a success - perhaps it could be scheduled for say the 1st Sunday of every month - which again gives the folks like dolorosoverita a chance to schedule around that (I seriously doubt she and her family go downtown EVERY Sunday - and if they normally do that, they could sightsee in another city in the metro area instead) and folks who like it a day to look forward to.
I do believe there's no way to get rid of all vehicles - even in the heart of downtown for the occasional day - since I suspect emergency vehicles would need access, but I can see an advantage in the attempt - even if only reducing the drunk driving rate that one night.
September 11, 2008
9:13 p.m.
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kevinjjones writes:
What about all the people who commute into the area on Sunday to go to the long-established churches? Are they going to be affected?
September 12, 2008
8:56 a.m.
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spencerr writes:
Bagel, I should have said present-day American liberals in my definition. Your wiki-definition of liberal is correct if you are abroad, or if you are speaking from a point in time taking place before FDR.
Modern U.S. liberals, whether or not they think what they are doing is socialism, are nannyists. They approach most problems with direct government intervention, which often means that they get more involved than is advisable in matters of production and equality of outcome.
They see something in a negative light, and they legislate to change it through direct government intervention. They know what is better for us...at least they think they do.
I would say that this is a fair description of the broad definiton of a present-day American liberal.
Libertarian and liberal are two vastly different things. An American libertarian is similar to a liberal abroad...government hands off of everything. An American liberal is the antithesis of this. Government hands on whenever possible.
September 12, 2008
8:59 a.m.
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spencerr writes:
Dan2,
Pretty well put without getting visceral. Usually, by the end of my own tirades, I am foaming at the mouth at the sound of "liberal." I admit that it is not the best way to convince those like bagel.
September 12, 2008
9:02 a.m.
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spencerr writes:
mrfxx, you are correct. It is just one Sunday. Who cares! I can't stand down town Denver anyway, so it is highly unlikely that I would wind up there on that specific day.
However, I think that the discussion between Dan2, Bagel, and me left the original topic and ventured into a more ideological discussion.
September 12, 2008
9:35 a.m.
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Bagel writes:
spencerr, that's a fair assessment, but I would assert it's not any different tactic than the neoconservatives are using. Just a different intended outcome.
September 12, 2008
9:59 a.m.
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GraceUnderPressure writes:
Quick INTOTHELENS------Have you ever been to Brighton?
Just come up North! Loveland and Fort Collins. Bring your money and your SUV's here. Great Fun In Northern Colorado!!!!
September 12, 2008
10:01 a.m.
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spencerr writes:
Bagel, define neoconservative. I want to know your meaning behind "it's not any different tactic than the neoconservatives are using."
Here is part of a definition that I pulled from answersdotcom. "generally advocate a free-market economy with minimum taxation and government economic regulation; strict limits on government-provided social-welfare programs; and a strong military supported by large defense budgets."
I just don't know about which "tactic" you are referring. With the exception of the military, neocons do not advocate for government interference.
September 12, 2008
11:19 a.m.
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cassidy22 writes:
On the same token as saying "there isn't enough data to say this is a good idea"
There isn't enough data to say it's bad either. So why are 90% of the people posting here so negative? The fact that there is NO PLAN, means, it isn't happening tomorrow, now is it? Why can't we all be a little more positive, a little more fluid and a little more open to change and trying something new to see WHAT the impact is.
The fact that everyone jumps on the assumption that their poor little life might be inconvenienced... I just don't understand. If you don't like it, don't show up. The ones who have a right to question are folks required to work that day, who may need to understand how to get to work on time.
other than that, if you don't LIVE there - maybe you could do the earth a favor, leave your car at home and explore your very own local community. (again, my predisposition to discovering your own way to reduce fuel consumption)
September 12, 2008
12:49 p.m.
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Bagel writes:
Spencerr, neocons are all about government interference. They support a hugely interventionist foreign policy that involves preemptive war and the idea that they can force other nations to American ideals.
They have been in the business of using government to enforce their own brand of morality. Examples include everything from banning stem cell research, trying for a constitutional ban on gay marriage, and Bush's Faith Based Initiatives.
Moreover we've clearly seen that they favor granting the President far more authority than the position was intended, and belittling or even ignoring the checks of the Supreme Court.
September 12, 2008
1:56 p.m.
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BrandiWine_84 writes:
A lovely idea, but yeah our transit system is not that great . . . .
September 12, 2008
2:15 p.m.
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spencerr writes:
Bagel, some points conceded. I do believe that Bush overstepped the presidential bounds at times over his presidency with regard to some war issues.
I don't believe in the constitutional ban on gay marriage, but I agree with any issue (from a conservative standpoint) that involves the murder of unborn babies. My right to swing my fist ends at the other guy's face. That other guy is the unborn baby in this case. Stem cell research via the placenta of a born or stillborn baby...fine. Via a prematurely terminated baby, not fine.
You are right though. There is hypocrisy when it comes to social issues and some foreign policy issues.