Swift fires 130 Muslim workers after Ramadan dispute

Rocky wire reports

Published September 10, 2008 at 6:21 p.m.
Updated September 11, 2008 at 9:04 a.m.

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Sara Loven / Greeley Tribune

Mohamed Jama, left and Najima Handule discuss their termination papers Wednesday from JBS Swift & Co.

Additional media

Statement from JBS Swift & Co.

Photo by Sara Loven / Greeley Tribune

Muslim workers of JBS Swift & Co. gather outside the company Wednesday after receiving their walking papers.

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Comments

September 10, 2008

6:33 p.m.

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HopiMedicineMan writes:

The ACLU will have a field day with this.
September 10, 2008

6:46 p.m.

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freedomfighter1 writes:

How long did they want off? Friday afternoon or the whole month?
September 10, 2008

6:52 p.m.

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ColdShot writes:

You work when you are scheduled to work, or find another job. I think it was the right move!
September 10, 2008

7:02 p.m.

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Romulus1968 writes:

Suxxs 2 b them. Now let's deport 'em so they don't drain our resources. I hear Somalia is nice theis time of year and they can always get a job working on a pirate ship or running guns or whatever.
September 10, 2008

7:13 p.m.

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happymike44 writes:

They took jobs that should have gone to Americans workers.
Then are complaining about their termination no one made them miss work.
I am tired of people using religion get what they want.
They did not abide by the papers they signed to work at the plant.
So now they will understand what unemployment looks like.
If they have no job then there is no reason to keep them here.
Send them home and make the company hire an all american workforce.
I wonder how many americans would show up on time to work for their job.
Also be glad to have it and be able to feed their families.
When did we lose control of employing the people born in our country.
Why does it seem that big business wants to only hire non english speaking foreign nationals.
September 10, 2008

7:14 p.m.

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TheGraphite writes:

If you can't do the job you were hired to do, then you should find work elsewhere. I would have tried to be more flexible if I ran that company. However, a company has every right to hire or fire whomever they will if a worker is unwilling or unable to do the job they are hired to do.

As for the A(nti) C(hrist)L(egions of the) U(nderworld)... well... let 'em have a field day. But, I agree with Shakespeare. "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
September 10, 2008

7:22 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

So much for the lies about Swift agreeing to give them the time off. Wonder if the illiterates who claimed that their "negotiations" were enough to claim that Swift agreed to give them the time off, will do the right thing...... stop lying about the case and do something to help the workers who were conned by liars.
September 10, 2008

7:25 p.m.

Masnatas writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 10, 2008

7:27 p.m.

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HopiMedicineMan writes:

Lawyers are killing America. And you think Indians will get it back? If we don't get it back now, we'll never get it back. We're still expecting you to head back to Europe. We can't wait forever. If you're not a racist, go back now.

Now we're concerned about Muslims buying huge portions of this country. They're tougher than you people. We'll have a real challenge.
September 10, 2008

7:27 p.m.

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Hola writes:

Good. If you want to follow Somali rules, stay in Somailia. It's not the job of Swift to cater to you.

BTW, if you immigrate to a country you should understand what their rules/traditions/etc are. Im not going to Somalia and telling them to sell me alcohol am I?
September 10, 2008

7:29 p.m.

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TheGraphite writes:

This has nothing to do with religion or culture or race.

They can't or won't do the work they agreed to do when they were hired. They knew full well when they applied for the job that they would have Ramadan. They agreed to the terms of their job. They lied, and they expected the company to change for them after their initial deceipt.

Not religion, not culture, not race. They can't or won't do the work, so they are out the door. End of story.
September 10, 2008

7:30 p.m.

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redwhiteandBLUE writes:

Clean out the place! No more complaining and DEMANDING.
They did the right thing. Work or go home.
September 10, 2008

7:41 p.m.

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PaleoConservative writes:

HopiMedicineMan writes:

"We're still expecting you to head back to Europe."

10,000 unemployed comedians and you're still trying to break into the business?
September 10, 2008

7:53 p.m.

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Otter writes:

Coming to your neighborhood soon - The ObamaNation Express!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xABGNd...

If you think this is an anomaly, do some research on the near complete Islamization of Europe. The Christians, Jews and Agnostics of Europe are now at the mercy of this kind of thing EVERY DAY. If this is what we want for our country, then continue to do nothing and think it’s someone else’s problem.
September 10, 2008

7:56 p.m.

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rkoehler writes:

These workers were here legally and attempting to exercise their freedom of religion rights. They requested but a small amount of time off from work to practice their religion and such requests are given without objection to Christians and Jews. JB Swift denied these hardworking individuals their rights and JB Swift should be sued.
September 10, 2008

8:03 p.m.

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benn writes:

Wow - xenophobia run rampant.

Glad to see that tolerance has come back to America!
September 10, 2008

8:12 p.m.

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nicktaste writes:

its reasons like this that make extremist muslims think america is the devil

i understand we are an "at will" state, i wonder if the law still provides for any religous protections for these people

makes me wonder if swift will just import more cheap labor from somewhere else (instead of from here at home)
September 10, 2008

8:14 p.m.

bluespanail writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 10, 2008

8:19 p.m.

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rkoehler writes:

I am ashamed by the hatred and racism expressed in the majority of these postings. As an American Indian I would never tell all of you to go back where you came from! We must accept that this is a nation of people from diverse countries, cultures, and religions...this is what we say makes this a great country! You must ask yourselves where you hatred and racism comes from!
September 10, 2008

8:21 p.m.

seebox writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 10, 2008

8:31 p.m.

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bluespanail writes:

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
Ronald Reagan
September 10, 2008

8:38 p.m.

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HopiMedicineMan writes:

Paleo---Only 10,000? I'm trying man (or is it ma'am?)
September 10, 2008

8:43 p.m.

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Tunlrat writes:

LOL! Un-friggin' believable. So....nevermind, this is amazing. David Lane just found another source of income.
September 10, 2008

9:19 p.m.

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coarizona writes:

Many jobs require you to work on holiday or personal days. If you can't work within the production system...well time to find another job that suites your needs. Nothing new on this concept of working.
September 10, 2008

9:21 p.m.

Hola writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 10, 2008

9:24 p.m.

MarshallLynch writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 10, 2008

9:32 p.m.

Sundog writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 10, 2008

9:36 p.m.

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Sundog writes:

PS, MarshallLynch: No fibbin' now, son, you're completely transparent here. Enjoy your vegan meal as you gaze upon the verdant People's Republic of Boulder environment. Pay no attention to us running dog lackeys, and leave the carnivorous activity to us vertebrates.
September 10, 2008

9:37 p.m.

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MileHighPatriot writes:

"The workers appeared to be all African. The termination appears to be related to the walkout of Muslim employees on Friday. The workers left their jobs after they were told they would not be given a break to observe the Muslim holy month of Ramadan."

How sarcastically objective. They were given a break... just not when they wanted to take it. It's a pvt company with pvt rules. Don't like it? Get out.

However, I think this is the same plant where that ICE raid happened a while back. They are no different than hundreds of other companies that take advantage of legal and illegal labor to have a better profit margin.
September 10, 2008

9:40 p.m.

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Francesca writes:

Neither this nor the Tribune story really elaborated on what these workers were asking for specifically. Looks like some requests had already been honored by Swift that weren't good enough for some of the workers that made the bad choice not to return to work when asked to. How much time was involved here? An hour, a day, week or month? I'd like to know the specifics before making a comment on it.

coarizona is right, you do the job you're hired to do, otherwise pound the pavement for something else if it doesn't accomodate you.
September 10, 2008

9:41 p.m.

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Sundog writes:

PPS: We know that liberals never tip, they just talk about it.
September 10, 2008

9:49 p.m.

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MarshallLynch writes:

Hey Sundog - no foolin'. Left Colorado 8 years ago for a job on Wall Street - life is good. Just have to pick the right specialty, like I did - I'll never get laid off. I think we give citizenship to all illegals and send the American welfare losers to Mexico. Might as well send the lower middle class too, things are only going to get worse for them here. At least in Mexico they could afford their winter heating bill. BTW - my office is one block from the WTC, and New Yorkers don't have a problem with muslims. I work with a lot of bazillionaire muslims, nice people. And we all lost co workers and friends that day.
September 10, 2008

9:50 p.m.

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q8bay writes:

I can believe how much hatered in these comments....so much has changed in Colorado!!!! where are the educated and the human..i think everyone knows that the American constitution protects religous practices....these ppl need only 30min to break the fast and go back to their work...they are an American as much as anyone else...so...plz...cant u be just HUMAN!!!
September 10, 2008

9:54 p.m.

Steve_In_Denver writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 10, 2008

10:03 p.m.

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gdr1873 writes:

I agree with sundog.....When they were hired they new the days off etc....holiday etc....So I dont know why they are walking out...Why dont they just quit. I mean Allah should provide for them everything they need...They dont need to work...Hell, I tell you now, the day that America succumbs to Islamic religion and laws etc etc, is the day that I and probably 200 million other christian believers will grab our guns and terminate these radical extremists....If your muslim, and you want to live here, fine...I could care less...But...pay your taxes, mind your own flippin business, respect OUR religion, refrain from crime, contribute to our society and I will do the same....You know the old saying "Dont Tread On Me" well it applies to Allah as well....here in the USA....
September 10, 2008

10:05 p.m.

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ActualThinker writes:

Wow, a lot of ignorant racists on this board. If they are here legally (which after the troubles Swift previously went thru I bet they are) then they deserve every protection any Christian or Jewish person is entitled too. They are paying taxes in to our system, doing a job that few people want. All they were asking for was to switch their break time and have time for Prayer, they weren't trying to get off or not work their shifts, just change the schedule a little for a month. The law is on their side which surprises me that Swift did this, many companies have lost lawsuits in which an employee is not at least given reasonable efforts to practice their religious beliefs.

So to all those complaining looks like a bunch of jobs opened up, why dont you go up there and take it and see how long you last.
September 10, 2008

10:10 p.m.

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Steve_In_Denver writes:

What a terrible employer...you can't tell me that Swift couldn't have worked out a compromise with these workers to allow them some time off to observe their religious holiday. Even if it was unpaid time...if they were truly an employer of choice who cared for its employees it wouldn't have even come to this. How sad.
September 10, 2008

10:11 p.m.

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Steve_In_Denver writes:

***was that more appropriate site staff...or are you going to remove that comment as well???***
September 10, 2008

10:17 p.m.

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Bipolar writes:

Its called "WORK" not religious play time. If they dont like it they can go back to where ever the heII they came from and take all the Illegals with them.
September 10, 2008

10:19 p.m.

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Bipolar writes:

And they can take steve in Denver too
September 10, 2008

10:26 p.m.

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MarshallLynch writes:

Steve - relax. Victory is obtained by watching them sink into financial despair. Immigrants will never go away because their labor is needed - we all know that. And they work harder than Americans, and so get further ahead, and the next thing you see is their kids going to Yale. Trust me, I live in northern NJ, which is about 20% foreign born, and they make up the majority of the gated community inhabitants. Head over to Philly or Queens and see what Americans who've been here a few generations have accomplished - not much.
September 10, 2008

10:28 p.m.

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Steve_In_Denver writes:

Bipolar, luckily views like yours are dying off...literally.

"If they don't like it they can go back to wherever the hell they came from and take all the illegals with them."

How original.
September 10, 2008

10:34 p.m.

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Steve_In_Denver writes:

MarshallLynch...

I think your views on things are a bit twisted...but I must admit you had me rolling with the Morton's comment...hahhahaha. Goodnight.
September 10, 2008

10:35 p.m.

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MileHighPatriot writes:

actualstinker, q8bay

Yes, people are free to choose whatever religion they want and no one i supposed to be able to prevent you from worshiping on your own time.

At work? Hmm... if I were Catholic and wanted a crucifix hanging over my desk in an office environment, but boss said no.. what would I do? Take it down or not put it up at all. It's not MY office.

This is a private business. They sign up for a schedule, and willingly work there. The employer did not say they could not fast. They are free to do that.

In a previous related article, it said that the employer has set break times for employees. The Muslim employees in question want a separate, later break time.

Could Swift have complied? Yes. Are they breaking the law because they are not completely accommodating them? NO! In this respect, they are obeying labor laws. The Muslims want 'extras' which they are not entitled to in this country.

Alibi's anyone?
September 10, 2008

10:40 p.m.

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MileHighPatriot writes:

Also, is Swift being inhumane... or 'non-human' as q8bay so eloquently put it?

No... inhumane would be chopping their hands off, or making them eat pork.

They're simply making a business decision. Keep 100 people (notice I didn't say Muslims) who are starting to irritate the company by slowing production, who might start demanding break times to pray 5 times a day in the future, or lay them off to find people who want to work without complaint?

No one is being inhumane. You guys throw the human rights card around like you're trying to get it in a hat.
September 10, 2008

10:51 p.m.

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Lorraine writes:

In most low-level jobs, you are told when you can take your break. Here is the law according to the Department of Labor:

"Federal law does not require lunch or coffee breaks. However, when employers do offer short breaks (usually lasting about 5 to 20 minutes), federal law considers the breaks as compensable work hours that would be included in the sum of hours worked during the work week and considered in determining if overtime was worked. Unauthorized extensions of authorized work breaks need not be counted as hours worked when the employer has expressly and unambiguously communicated to the employee that the authorized break may only last for a specific length of time, that any extension of the break is contrary to the employer's rules, and any extension of the break will be punished.

Bona fide meal periods (typically lasting at least 30 minutes), serve a different purpose than coffee or snack breaks and, thus, are not work time and are not compensable. "

Colorado law:

Paid 10-minute rest period for each 4-hour work period or major fraction thereof; as practicable, in middle of each work period.

Administratively issued Wage Order for 7 industries.

Applicable to retail trade, food and beverage, public housekeeping, medical profession, beauty service, laundry and dry cleaning and janitorial service industries. Excludes certain occupations, such as teacher, nurse, and other medical professionals.

More info: http://employeeissues.com/breaks_meal...

To summarize, companies are not required by federal law to provide breaks of any kind. OSHA does have some break requirements. The State of Colorado requires 10 minutes every 4 hours.

So companies do not have to accomodate religious practices at all. If you don't like your work schedule, find a different job. If you're in an industry that doesn't have a flexible schedule (assembly lines, etc) go back to school and get more education. People in white-collar jobs usually get to take breaks when they need to.
September 10, 2008

10:58 p.m.

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MileHighPatriot writes:

Thank you, Lorraine. I hope you don't come off as an inhumane evil republican.
September 10, 2008

11 p.m.

watcher1 writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 10, 2008

11:30 p.m.

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informationmunky writes:

so, I'm an american by birth. I make barely enough money to pay my rent and put gas in my car. I work on my birthday, christmas, easter, hannika, quanza, thanksgiving, and pretty much every other holliday thats on a calander. why?? because those are the shifts I was given on the schedule. Could I get a job if I went into my interview and demanded that according to my rastafarian religion, I need to take a 15 minutte break every day after my scheduled break, to do a couple bong rips. after all,, it is a legitamatly recognised religion.
Shut up and work!!! Or i guess you could just play the welfare card, and collect government assistance. God knows the system isn't doing anything to help me out. Use that "minority" ace up your sleeve, and the government will almost knock your door down trying to help you out with child care, food stamps, and rent subsidies. the more illegitamte children you have, the better.
September 10, 2008

11:52 p.m.

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BRM writes:

Swift hires immigrants (legal and otherwise, they were raided not long ago, remember) whom they can underpay and take advantage of. I love the anti-immigrant commentors that go on to actually SUPPORT Swift. They are the problem morons!!!! It is companies like Swift that hire illegals, thereby creating a motivation for folks to risk life and limb to get here. Be careful who you support....the big corporations love this kind of blind right-wing, knee-jerk PR. This is a cut-and-dry management v. union conflict. Any Christian religious request would have been granted without question. Pure hypocrisy!!
September 11, 2008

midnight

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BRM writes:

Lorraine: while your Wikipedia-search and cut-and-paste skills are admirable this a contract issue between Mgmt. and the Union. Your Federal Dept. Of Labor quotes are moot. The workers were NOT claiming a violation of the DOL laws, they were simply asking for a temporary adjustment (not an elongation of) their break times. Seriously, ask yourself this: if a group of Red, White and Blue Christians were terminated en masse like this and they were simply asking their employer for time to PRAY, what would your response be? Just asking.
September 11, 2008

12:07 a.m.

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Sundog writes:

MarshallLynch- New Yorkers don't have a problem with muslims? Jeez, man, what does that hole in the ground represent to you? Don't tell me the human beings on the floors of those two trade centers (many of whom were stockbrokers) didn't have a big problem with muslims causing their lives to unexpectedly terminate in truly horrific fashion. Sorry, but I can't for a moment take such comments seriously, and if you were on Wall Street on 9/11 I'm absolutely certain that you would not be saying what you are saying.
I won't believe it based on the reality of what actually took place in NYC when you supposedly were there.
September 11, 2008

12:22 a.m.

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unemployedfarmer writes:

I've been unemployed for almost 3 years now and stories like this make me sick to my stomach. What is wrong with our country these days??? Does any company support American workers anymore? Why even open a company in this country if you're not going to hire our citizens you greedy jerks!
September 11, 2008

12:27 a.m.

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BRM writes:

Sundog: maybe New Yorkers, being exposed to a much more cosmopolitan populace on a daily-basis, are too informed to label ALL MUSLIMS personally responsible for 9/11 as you have. (Not to mention, plenty of Muslims died in the towers/Pentagon/PA too!) By your logic you must hold all Christians responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing then? Good ole' Bible-thumping white-boy terrorists they was! Judge things on their merits not what the news/GOP/Church tells you too, it's fun...free-thinking that is.
September 11, 2008

12:27 a.m.

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clyde writes:

This just reminds me that I have to pick up my Ramadan Ham tomorrow. If you want to work, work. If you don't, don't. If your employer expects you to be at work and you're not there without a VALID excuse, bye, bye.
September 11, 2008

12:31 a.m.

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BRM writes:

To unemployedfarmer: "Why even open a company in this country if you're not going to hire our citizens you greedy jerks!"

One word: PROFITS!
September 11, 2008

12:33 a.m.

unemployedfarmer writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 11, 2008

12:40 a.m.

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BRM writes:

unemployedfarmer: People around the world say the same vitriolic BS about American Christians....yadda, yadda, yadda. Your voting for McCain though, right? Blame the GOP for the influx of illegals if that is your beef! GOP=Large Corporation Enabler=Higher profits at all cost=more illegals. Simple math!
September 11, 2008

12:42 a.m.

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BRM writes:

Don't get me wrong. I am not defending Muslims over any other religious group. I think they are ALL equally crazy!!
September 11, 2008

1:02 a.m.

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BRM writes:

Lazyfarmer: Seriously? Unemployed for 3 years? Are you just looking in the "Farmers Wanted" section of the local classifieds? I know of at least 150 Somalis that beat you to a job interview. Buck up man!
September 11, 2008

1:09 a.m.

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arby writes:

Unemployedfarmer
There is a job for you in Greeley at the Swift plant. Or would you rather cry than work?

The Muslims thought they had Swift over a barrel because they could scream religious discrimination. I'm glad Swift had the stomach to fire them. Now they can return to Somalia and practice their religion and Ramadan year around until they starve to death. Jerks
September 11, 2008

1:14 a.m.

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BRM writes:

I'm sure that 150 newly-arrived Somalis thought, "yeah, we've got this huge multi-national 'over a barrel'". They were probably lucky to have their jobs but unyielding in their dogmatic beliefs. Sounds like almost every American I know. Are they jerks too?
September 11, 2008

1:22 a.m.

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arby writes:

If Swift had 300 Muslims working at the Greeley plant and probably a few hundred at other plants it seems the smart ones came to work with a Snickers bar and a bottle of water. What made these immigrants here on US work permits think they could high jack an American compny and inconveniance their fellow workers. They worked an assembly line with other non Muslim employees. Everybody has to start and stop at the same time. Even an African immigrant here at the discretion of the US government should be able to understand that. Total jerks pull their visas.
September 11, 2008

1:27 a.m.

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BRM writes:

Snickers! That's good. ROFL
September 11, 2008

1:27 a.m.

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arby writes:

BRM
Why are you defending these idiots? They had the opportuniy of their lives and they blew it. It makes no difference whether they were manipulated by their Imam or the union. They aren't smart enough to se tomorrow and we don't need them or their offspring here.
September 11, 2008

1:35 a.m.

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BRM writes:

...and you think Swift will be staffing their jobs with good-ole white "Americans?!?!?!" Your missing the point, Swift is at fault loooong before the Somali employees start complaining. Swift is looking to hire anyone but a in-the-states-legally wanting-a-fair-wage-worker. That does not fit their business model. They would hire Osama himself if the stockholders remained happy. And I'm not defending anyone's goofball religious rituals, I'm merely pointing out the rampant xenophobia that has crippled this country. A group of white-Christians workers makes this a non-story.
September 11, 2008

1:51 a.m.

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ColoradoNative writes:

Good riddance... What are people from terrorist-filled toilets doing here anyway? Somalia is an al-Qaida hell hole. The attitude of Muslim migrants never ceases to amaze. They constantly want us to cater to them, alter our way of doing business for them, change our schools for them and on and on. In Italy they demanded that Italian schools rip crucifixes off their walls, in England they demanded that schools change their menus to suit the Islamic diet. These people are a plague. Send them packing.
September 11, 2008

2:20 a.m.

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arby writes:

I think we have the right to be a little leary of a known criminal until he/she has proven they are reformed. Well we have the same right to be suspicious of someone who belongs to a religion that has vowed to destroy us and has attacked us many times.
Maybe Swift isn't the most moral employer in the country, but they gave thes people the best opportunity they were ever going to get and the dummys blew it over their religion.
Since when does someone here on a work visa get to set the rules? I have worked abroad and I abided by the rules of the country I was in. No questions asked. If you are a guest you accomadate the host. I hope ICE begins deportation tomorrow. Since they are no longer employed their visas are invalid and they should not be allowed to remain in the USA.
September 11, 2008

3:50 a.m.

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seeker writes:

I did some checking on these workers and found out they were brought here from refugee camps. They have been the vitims of genocide. The women raped and families, including children murdered. This has been on many news shows. Most of them have no say in where they are placed. A husband may be in Greeley but his wife and children may be in Seattle. Many of them cannot read or write. Coming from the camps with little or no food in the worst of conditions they believe America to be paradise. The dispute seemed to start over breaks. They are supposed to get 3 breaks if they work 8 hrs & 12 min but say they work 11-12 hr with only 2 breaks. During their holy month they wanted to make sure that on Fridays for 30 days they could get the 3rd break that they were entitled to anyway at 7:30 pm for prayer. It was agreed that this would happen and last Friday they were told the deal was off. Someone was negotiating this for them so I am not clear if they were encouraged to walk out.
It's easy to get Americanized quickly. I hired a "new American" immigrant as a truck driver some years ago who started out gung ho on America working hard with a great attitude and after 6 mos it was too hard and he wanted a $3 an hr raise! Ha! Funny how quickly they turn into us! Anyway they walked out and now they have no jobs. Don't give Swift too many high fives though...remember, these are the guys who dumped their work force for illegals and got raided by the Feds. They lost 270 workers and that's how they ended up with another group of exploitable workers who have very little choice in how they make a living. These jobs are very unpleasant but someone has to do them. Remember....this administration agreed to help these refugees. Give them credit for their humanity. Give these people a break at least for the horror they lived through in Somalia.
September 11, 2008

4:45 a.m.

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roger44 writes:

Folks, swift is not an American company. Swift sold out after the raids to JBS SA, the SA stands for south America. they are the largest beef packers in the world, and you can bet their other plants employ foreign workers so their bottom line is high. Brazil is their country of origin. In my opinion, they did the right thing, but them bringing in foreign workers on H1B visas to work is BS. Swift used to pay good wages, hired illegals and the pay dropped by half. bet the price of their products never dropped did it? here's the question, if they brought them in, who pays for them going back if that's necessary? bet it's the American taxpayer!
September 11, 2008

5:27 a.m.

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ksells writes:

Read the book "The Jungle".

It talks about the way these meat companies exploit immigrants. It's a classic. Especially because nothing has changed over a hundred years. Then it was Irish, now it's Muslims. But the fact is that the company uses people and has the company and the people in charge at all levels are beneath contempt.
September 11, 2008

5:35 a.m.

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ksells writes:

Now Swift has fired all these people. They aren't going to be able to hire legal employees to replace them for the wages that they offer. What third world country are they are going to go to next? They fire employees who come from one of the most terrible places now. Maybe a good spot would be Georgia or Iraq.
September 11, 2008

6:23 a.m.

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DeimosJB writes:

There may be some legal consequences for such a firing tying back to Title VII of the 1964 civil rights act. However, it is my belief that a company should be able to hire and fire anyone they want, and that consumers should voice their approval or disapproval by either buying from or boycotting that company. That's capitalism 101.
September 11, 2008

6:32 a.m.

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LOUIE writes:

I don't believe you can force your religion upon your employer, if it's part of thier union contract that would be discrimnatory in itself. The courts have never allowed an employer to endorse religion in the work place, thus by walking out they in effect quit. This was not a skilled labor position to begin with, for which there were severe shortages; that leads me to question immigration in giving out the visas to begin with. Swift needs to hire Americans and pay a living wage instead of exploiting 3rd world labor markets. Meat packing used to be a 12 to 18 dollar an hour job with benifits, now it's below 10 because of the corporate explotation of foriegn or illegal laborers. That doesn't sound like good union representation to me, to have lost that much ground in addition to allowing illegals and 3rd world labor to be imported. You can't force others to have to honor your religion in the work place, some have no belief, others have different beliefs, some will antagonize others if it's forced down thier throats, and to do so is discrimnatory in itself. Can I walk around the packing house saying Mohammed was a giggalo, who married a rich widow, and today muslim women are nothing but chattels to serve a man's needs? No, of course not. By the same token why do they think they can force thier belief upon others in the work place or thier employer to discriminate in thier favor? The employer wants to give them a holiday, that's fine; can he be forced to, or have it written in a union contract? I don't think so; others could then sue for discrimination as the contract would be favoring religion. There is a reason we seperate the religion from the public sector, it discriminates against those who do not have these beliefs. They walked out, it was thier choice. Allah Akbar is noble, but they are out of a job and no court is going to force an employer to give religious preferences over the work place knowing it will discriminate against others. RTD threw me off a bus and called the cops because I told a born again preaching bus driver, "God is dead."! Cops came and explained to the idiot it was my right. I could have lawyered up, but the police came and settled the matter along with calls to Barbara Broale on the board of RTD. I'm a catholic, but even I according to this man was going to Hell. He should have caught on when he asked me if I had a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus, and I replied, "I talked to his mother this morning!". But no, he then kicked me off because finally I told him "God is dead". He kicked me off and called the cops who searched my person. Once he openned his mouth to the cops, he sunk his own arguement and I was allowed to go free. Imagine I'm in this packing house calling Mohhamed a giggalo? Thats why religion has to be seperated, it discriminates by recognition of it's own beliefs verses the opinion an beliefs of others.
September 11, 2008

6:43 a.m.

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Lemmingsfollowidiots writes:

Freedom of Religion is not a right at the work place it is only that the government can not impose a national religion on everyone and you can practice your beliefs ON YOUR TIME! GO SWIFT, so tired of everyone DEMANDING Special Rights that only the MUSLIMS or MINORITIES get. Equal Rights for EVERYONE, regardless of skin color or religion!
September 11, 2008

6:45 a.m.

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Von123 writes:

Have any of you whiners ever held a job? No company can operate if every employee does what they want and there was chaos. These people took the job willingly and knew the expectations. There were not forced to take the job. Nothing in this article says these people were illiterate and if they were learn like everyone else. If you think this makes others hate us, go to that country and see how you fare... you would not be speaking so freely. You liberals should take these people home with you and support them.
September 11, 2008

6:49 a.m.

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Sixtysixdeuce writes:

"i understand we are an "at will" state, i wonder if the law still provides for any religous protections for these people"

Hiring and firing decisions cannot be based on religion (or sex, race, creed, etc.). But at will means an employer or employee can terminate at any time and without reason.

But Swift had a reason, a good one. I don't think there are very many of us who would still be employed if we didn't show up to work for a couple of days without a real good reason-especially after being warned that another no-show would result in termination.

I work 7-6 M-F. I don't expect my employer to make time during those 55 hours to accomodate my personal, extracurricular activities. I do that on my own time. Appearently, these folks just couldn't understand that concept and it cost them their jobs. As it should.
September 11, 2008

6:53 a.m.

SheikYurBooty writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 11, 2008

7:15 a.m.

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Michael writes:

These Somali Muslims have a right to express their religious beliefs and adhere to them. Swift has a right to run their business as they see fit. 2 sets of rights running head first into each other - as happens in this country many times every day. The rights of the Somali Muslims do not extend infinitley, as none of our rights are absolute. It appears that negotiations were held to try to find a compromise and that the workers were told clearly not to walk out or they would lose their jobs. They CHOSE....once again, they CHOSE to not adhere to that demand by their employer and therefore they were terminated. I have been asked to work on Christian holidays in my work history - Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, Thanksgiving (a secular holiday with Christian origins), and others not so well known but holy days nonetheless. That is the nature of work and jobs in America. It would appear that many new arrivals want the US to conform to their 3rd world way of doing things where we see dozens of so called "holy days" being observed throughout the Middle East. Personally I have always viewed these as simply ways to not work. I would like to know how many Christian holy days are given as time off for Christians working in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or Somalia or Dubai or China??? Let's compare which countries are most tolerant in this area when it comes to religious beliefs of immigrants living and working in the the host country. We all know the answer to that one, considering the mere possession of a Christian Bible in most of these countries is grounds for immediate deportation or even much worse.
September 11, 2008

7:16 a.m.

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LOUIE writes:

YIOTA, if they were discriminated because of the color of thier skin, I have news for them. The packing company is one place that employs people of all colors and nationalities, specifically targeting minority workers just by thier past employment records alone. Religion is not something and employer has to accomendate; they were firesd for walking off the job. The one thing that I can honestly say is the packing houses favor minority employment, that's why they were hired there without any discrimination. They chose to walk out, the employer didn't force them out. When told to go back to work they refused, fine. I wonder how they got the visas to begin with since meatpackers are not in shortage nor such a specialize job as to warrant mass immigration status. Swift is justified in firing them for walking off the job, in an unauthorized strike even according to thier union who did not call the strike. If the company's accomendation of them, put an undue hardship on other employees who didn't share thier belief, the company surely did discriminate by favoring thier beliefs over others of different beliefs. Hope they do take it to court, lets see how it goes, I'm interested. Then others can wear images of the prophet to work, if the court rules the employer must accomendate religions and beliefs!
September 11, 2008

7:18 a.m.

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1968camaro writes:

Hire Americans to take their places!
September 11, 2008

7:21 a.m.

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Duckster writes:

HopiMedicineMan writes: "Now we're concerned about Muslims buying huge portions of this country. They're tougher than you people. We'll have a real challenge."

Not even, pal. And we haven't even begun playing "Cowboys and Muslims" yet. Ya might want to start making room on your reservations for some new neighbors.
September 11, 2008

7:21 a.m.

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ActualThinker writes:

The truth is there may be some legal issues here, it is not nearly as simple as they can be fired for anything, if you look below at the reasonable accomodations for religious beliefs it appears on the outside that the Muslim workers may have a case. It's a company larger than 15 people, they stated their needs in advance, the request could have been "reasonably accomodated" (they were asking to switch break times), Swift failed to show how doing so would cause them a undue hardship, etc.

Excerpts from www.adl.com (space wouldnt let me quote whole thing but it can be found at: http://www.adl.org/religious_freedom/...

What does federal law require of an employer?
Federal law requires an employer to “reasonably accommodate” an employee’s religious observances, practices and beliefs. However, an employer need not “reasonably accommodate” if the employer can show that accommodation would cause an “undue hardship” on business.
What constitutes “reasonable accommodation” and “undue hardship” depends on the facts in a particular situation. Regardless of whether an accommodation is ultimately possible, the employer bears the burden of showing that a serious attempt was made.

Are all employers required to try to accommodate their employees’ religious needs?
The federal law applies only to companies with more than 15 employees, although your state’s law may protect employees of smaller companies.

What is a “reasonable accommodation”?
Requested accommodations vary — an employee may need a particular day off each year for a religious holiday; or to refrain from work every week on his or her Sabbath; or to wear religious garb; or to have a place to pray. An employer must try to arrange for these religious obligations.
An employer may not simply refuse to accommodate an employee. If the employer claims that accommodation is not feasible because it would result in undue hardship, the employer must demonstrate the effect accommodation would have on the business; that is, the employer must prove the undue hardship.
September 11, 2008

7:24 a.m.

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PRAYFORTHEKIDS writes:

I don't understand why if I only get a 10 minute break and they because they have a certain religion gets preferential treatment, I feel that is unfair to me. Regardless of religion, all employees should be treated equally. Religion does not belong in the workplace. I also don't understand that smokers get extra breaks because they need to go outside to satisfy their addiction. Again here I am working and only getting a 10 minute break.
All employees should be treated equally.
September 11, 2008

7:26 a.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

Nice to see Swift grow some kahoonah's here. :) I feel bad that their employment was terminated but frankly, if you fail to perform the bare essential tast of showing up and performing your work schedule than its your own failing. I am Christian and find myself forced (not always) to work days that go against my faith.

But work is work. If this had been any other group, the treatment would have been far harshier.

I.

PS I wont debate my opinion here. At least not today.
September 11, 2008

7:33 a.m.

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mexcellent writes:

So did you guys hear Britney Spears is coming out with a new album?
September 11, 2008

7:42 a.m.

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incognitoboy writes:

marshalllynch@9;49PM - what an ignorant thing to say. send all the lower-middle class to mexico?

yeah, then you can step behind the counter at starbucks and get your own d*** latte you ignorant elitist ahole. who you gonna call when your plumbing breaks? are plumbers millionaires like yourself? or do you just go down to the local manhattan home depot and get the parts yourself? oh, that's right ..... the manhattan home depot had to close because they couldn't get enough lower middle class workers to stock the shelves. they all went to mexico where they can afford the heating bills!

you'll get laid off alright...... after you and your wall street buddies profit-grab the country into the ground and the chinese come over to collect what they're owed. go ahead and try to hide in your mcmansion on long island. they'll find you there too.

your arrogance is offensive, jaggoff. i hope your mercedes gets carjacked.
September 11, 2008

7:45 a.m.

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SanctuaryCity writes:

It's about time. Send them to Dearborn & take the illegals with you and try to bring Greely back to american control.

I was wondering if our government set up these muslims like the asians of the late '60s and early seventies. For 5 years, our government exempted taxes to the people they brought over to this sanctuary country so they could get their feet on the ground. I don't recall our government doing this for our own citizens.
My sister-in-law worked in payroll for a packing plant in northeastern Nebraska and those people didn't pay taxes and lived many to house. SOUND FAMILIAR
September 11, 2008

7:50 a.m.

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youngman writes:

I would transfer them to the pork packing plant....
September 11, 2008

7:59 a.m.

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ptorres writes:

I will bet any person lunch that reads this comment that the EECO will take this case on and we will have to pay a price increase for our bacon.
September 11, 2008

8 a.m.

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Heidi writes:

tiero,
Would that happen to be IBP in S Sioux City, NE?
September 11, 2008

8:01 a.m.

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kali73 writes:

Do you think I could get Christmas off if I worked in the Middle East? The company made reasonable accommodations, and there are plenty of other illegals that can replace them...so take it or leave it. Besides, isn't this what sick days are for?
September 11, 2008

8:19 a.m.

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toocool writes:

Thanks Lorraine, your contribution that screamed common sense as well as what the law is, oh, unions do not pass or inforce state or federal laws.
September 11, 2008

8:20 a.m.

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LadyBird112 writes:

I hate genralizing about people, but I will tell you, most of the Muslims I have met (and I have met A LOT) come to this country and expect Americans to bend over backwards for them. Um, no. Now, before someone comes on here and attacks me for that comment, I know not all Muslims are like that, I just haven't met any yet.
I think the company did the right thing, I've had to work on holidays too, did I complain? Nope. I knew I had to be there because it was my job. And I agree with the post above, you would be laughed at if you tried to get Christmas off in the Middle East.
September 11, 2008

8:25 a.m.

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fntsymtn writes:

I suspect that these these workers were not fired for their religious beliefs or for their request for changes to company policy to accommodate their beliefs. I suspect they were fired for leaving work and not reporting for following shifts, but the truth will definitely come out in legal proceedings.

As for accommodating their religious beliefs, it is difficult to tell from what has been reported what Swift actually allowed, but I do know that in industries such as health care, you are required to work on holidays ... even religious holidays ... and the policies generally allow workers in departments to alternate or trade who works on which holidays so that no one is "stuck" working on Christmas or Easter every year. There are other jobs that do not close for holidays (think transportation, law enforcement, hospitality, etc.) and employees are required to work on the holidays. The "people are not required to work on Christmas" argument is pointless because some people are required to work on Christmas, and it's part of their employment contract.

A non-planned break for 70% of your workforce at any time will be disruptive to business, such as the walkout at 9:30 by these employees.
September 11, 2008

8:25 a.m.

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jbowen43 writes:

You can bet that Swift treats Christians and Jews better than Muslims.
September 11, 2008

8:30 a.m.

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ActualThinker writes:

ptorres writes:
"I will bet any person lunch that reads this comment that the EECO will take this case on and we will have to pay a price increase for our bacon."

You would see that increase anyway since half the people here think Swift should be forced to pay $20/hr to get a white to do this job, even though it requires no skills. Where you think that price increase is getting added too?

LadyBird112 writes:
"I hate genralizing about people, but I will tell you, most of the Muslims I have met (and I have met A LOT) come to this country and expect Americans to bend over backwards for them."

Ummm no. In the technology industry I work with a lot of Muslims, and my best friend is a Muslim and I spend a lot of time with him and his family. Muslim's in general from what I met are one of the most misunderstood group's I know. This is not at all how they are, everyone I've met is extremely hard working, but devoted to their faith as well. Sometimes those two things are going to clash as what happened here. Besides if you were expecting American's to just bend over backwards for you then would you really take a job at a crappy meat packing plant anyway? I do know people who expect the world to bend over backwards for them and lets just say they aren't the meat packing type.
September 11, 2008

8:32 a.m.

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Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:

Swift hireds a certain type of people - immigrant (both types). Immigrants are going to have remnants of their cultures, religions and such. Most likely they came here because they could practice freely, without result of persecution, afterall, that's why the protestants came here. I don't understand why Swift management couldn't find a way to meet the needs of its employees and still make big profits. Is management just not that smart? It's not about catering to the needs of a certain type of religious people, it's about negotiation, which all union and contract employees have a right to do - negotiate the contract afterall that's the American Way.

I also see that yes, immigrants who do come here have to assimilate to the larger mainstream culture and should have had a backup plan for their religious needs if Swift refused to meet the needs requested, however, they are exercising their rights (at least the ones who are here legally) and Swift gave them the opportunity, that too is the American Way - exercising rights and Swift is getting a big huge lesson in exercising.

As American Citizens we all have the right to megotiate. We don't just have to do what the "Man" tells us to do. We all have family or kids who need our care in certain situations are you going to tell your mom, dad, or child that you can't take care of them when their sick because work doesn't allow me to leave?

Negotiation is what it's all about and Swift refused so now the ACLU will come after them and that's no one's fault but their own.

So if you want to get mad, get mad at Swift like BRM pointed out as their the ones who are hiring these types of people.
September 11, 2008

8:35 a.m.

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LadyBird112 writes:

Actual Thinker, maybe you should actually read the rest of the post. I think you skipped this part that I wrote:

"Now, before someone comes on here and attacks me for that comment, I know not all Muslims are like that, I just haven't met any yet."
September 11, 2008

8:41 a.m.

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arby writes:

Lets not lose sight of the main thing here. These people are here at the discrection of our government. They do not have the right to tell us what to do nor do they have the right to sue. Their visas are for a specific job for a specific employer at a specific place. Since they in effect quit when they walked out Swift was within its rights to not let them come back and since they are no longer employed they no longer have the right to be here. Round them up and ship them out. If it costs a few bucks to do so that's OK good riddance to bad rubbish.
Remember what today is and dig out that old Tshirt you forgot wear last year.
September 11, 2008

8:48 a.m.

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JSeifert writes:

Good for Swift its time to fight these lazy Unions they are killing America its their fault that all the jobs are going overseas! Its the same way they are trying to fight the right to work on the ballot this November. They want their greedy fingers in our pockets they are worse then the MOB. Its time to brake their hold on American jobs. Its time to end their influance in America. If you want to work then WORK! I am tired of these people demanding this then demanding that to the point everyone loses their jobs because the company has to move or go broke.
I say round them all up and deport their butts back to that fly ridin pest hole they called a country. Want to bang your head three times a day do it on your time I do not get prayer time so why should you. We in America should not change for them they need to change for us period. They can not do it put them back on the boat to the salt flats for all I care.
September 11, 2008

8:52 a.m.

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GILPINMAN writes:

If my employees walked off the job they would be FIRED! They are here to do a job if they can't or won't do it they can go some where else!
September 11, 2008

9:02 a.m.

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patchsl writes:

As a Christian, if I demanded my employer accomodate me taking breaks when I wanted to accept Communion or pray, guess what would happen? I would be fired - and rightfully so - I willingly agreed to work the hours my employer offered. If the schedule doesn't work for me, I can find other employment. No one has a God-given right to any job - it's a mutually-agreed contract between employer and employee. Please stand up to those who want to hold private businesses hostage and help stop this madness!
September 11, 2008

9:29 a.m.

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lcs067 writes:

Marshall Lynch - glad you went to New York. No one wants you here anyway. You are smug, arrogant, and apparently lack all empathy for others. Appealing characteristics. Of course the system works for you - you're white, male, and working in finance. You fit a certain mold. Not everyone is like you (thank God).

Go Obama!!

I believe Swift was perfectly within their rights. What a ridiculous demand. Religious practice is separate from work. The employer is under no obligation to provide special accommodations to any religious group. I agree with others who have commented that it's a sad state of affairs when we have such a high unemployment rate that white people can't get jobs yet immigrants are trying to take over.
September 11, 2008

9:31 a.m.

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Cwillyrun1 writes:

HopiMedicineMan, when are the Indians going back to their ancestral homelands......... Asia? You want whites to go back to Europe, and blacks to Africa I suppose, so you're also saying Indians should go back to Asia? Since there isn't any group of people indigenous to North America, it must be what you want, right?
September 11, 2008

9:43 a.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

Patches,

Well hello there my Fellow Christian :) I agree. I would like special treatment, sure, but that isn't fair. The Christian community is the largest on earth, nearly twice (2.2-2.6 billion*) the size of Muslims and accounts for 7 to 8 of every ten persons living in this country. If we grouped together we could demand almost anything....But we don't. That shows the differance of charactar and level of maturity (recently*) between our group and theirs.

I.

PS Islam isnt the fastest growing Religion either. Studies show that the birthrate is higher among them, but the conversion (adult) rate is far larger and growing quite quickly between Muslims to Christian. (though they have to hide, as Islam commands the death penalty for it, which is strictly enforced throughout Europe and now recently stateside.)
September 11, 2008

9:46 a.m.

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mexcellent writes:

Yes, let's get them all outta here. All those immigrant scum who were born here generations after their very own grandmothers and grandfathers IMMIGRATED here. Let's deport these people who were given America on a platter and have no concept of immigration and what it's like to journey here. Let's return these conservative republicans who would never compromise their love of God for anything, not even their job. Good thing your religious holidays include shopping sprees, a quick donation to the church, and egg hunts rather than actual prayer. Go back to where you don't have to worry about other ethnicities wanting you to bend over backwards for attention. GO!
September 11, 2008

9:48 a.m.

cdmdenver writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 11, 2008

9:51 a.m.

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Cwillyrun1 writes:

lcs067, nice racist rant there buddy.
September 11, 2008

9:52 a.m.

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redwhiteandBLUE writes:

These people cry discrimination eveywhere they work..even at
Arrowwheat Co.
September 11, 2008

10 a.m.

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timeandagain writes:

you mean to tell me that these are the people that have been handling my meat all these years?
September 11, 2008

10:03 a.m.

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Heidi writes:

timeandagain,
Next time remove the blindfold!
September 11, 2008

10:10 a.m.

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Mtn__Gator writes:

AmaranthArticia writes:

"That's BS. I support these workers and their religious rights. Give 'em hell, ACLU!"

Wow, you have never run a company have you? They choose not to work, Swift choose not to pay those who don't work, how hard is that to understand?
September 11, 2008

10:12 a.m.

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geezIget_it writes:

No more purchasing Swift products. They can't hire American citizens? Come on American's this has got to come to a stop!!
September 11, 2008

10:19 a.m.

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O_TRAIN writes:

Religion aside, if you are an employee and don't get all the specifics of your employment in writing, before you start working you are SOL. Employer/Employee both have responsibilities to follow the contract. I learned that lesson the hard way as I'm sure many others have. These folks learned that lesson as well - time to stock up on some Top Raman(dan).
September 11, 2008

10:24 a.m.

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Mtn__Gator writes:

Right on Swift! Thanks for showing you have the BALZ to get rid of these people! No Work = No Job.
September 11, 2008

10:25 a.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

Heidi,

Was wondering where you were :) didn't notice you anywhere on here. To early in the day huh?

Timeadagian...Yep. Pretty surprisin huh?

Its funny, I chat with a person who has a name almost just like that on Y.I.M.

I.
September 11, 2008

10:31 a.m.

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jajknight writes:

Hi Swift - I'm brainwashed by a bronze age book. My parents helped to brainwash me since I was a child. I brainwash my own children like my parents did to me. Now I need to starve myself for a period of time because the book says so. After that's done I will need to leave work to eat something while the other employees continue doing their job. Will you accomodate my brainwashing? Thanks.
September 11, 2008

10:33 a.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

MTN_Gater,

My thoughts as well ;)

I.
September 11, 2008

10:37 a.m.

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Heidi writes:

MyFriend,

I've been lurking around. My day starts at 5:30 am. Apparently, I haven't had anything intelligent to add today.
September 11, 2008

10:41 a.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

Heidi,

Ditto. The smartest thing I did today (SO far!) was avoid a stick to the crouch that my dog wanted me to fetch this morning. She's such a demanding lil' thing. Now I'm here...At work. The smartest thing I'll accomplish today is eating and than sleeping.

I.
September 11, 2008

10:45 a.m.

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Heidi writes:

The smartest thing I could have done today was stay in bed. And I would have been paid for a sick day!
September 11, 2008

10:53 a.m.

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philvysor writes:

Ok, The one thing everyone is not seeing is these people were in the the union and I beleive that the Union officials delivered some bad advice to these people. I was in the union for 12 years and the reps. for our local use to always give us bad advice. I believe that Swift made every effort to accomadate these workers but their union directed them the wrong way.
September 11, 2008

11 a.m.

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gr8fuldude writes:

Since this is a union job, should this have not been negotiated into the contract, as break times and work hours usually are? If not, the union and the employees should blame themselves and remember for their next contract negotiation. Part of the downside of a union contract is being locked in and not being able to continue negotiating after the fact, even if you want to cloak it in the guise of "religious tolerance" or any similar name.

Another thing to consider is that these jobs are assembly line type positions. Not like being a salaried office person. If they walk off the line, there will be ramifications.
September 11, 2008

11:04 a.m.

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gs writes:

Can anyone say with authority if Swift brought Somalies to this country? If yes I propose a boycot of all Swift products.
September 11, 2008

11:16 a.m.

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NeilT writes:

Grunt@6:55am-"Well, how about you get back on your ice bridge and head back down to Africa? I mean... didn't life as we know it start there?"

Duckster@7:21am-"Not even, pal. And we haven't even begun playing "Cowboys and Muslims" yet. Ya might want to start making room on your reservations for some new neighbors."

LOL! That's a good dose of medicine for the Hopi-man.

The root of the problem, in this instance, is Swift. From now on, I'm going to inquire about the facilities my meat comes from. If it's from Swift, I'm not buying. My decision has nothing to do with the religious issues pertaining to this case; I just despise Swift for their corporate culture of legal slavery. Their use of legal slavery displaces American jobs. They would prefer to put-up with the headaches this system causes, rather than hire locally. Ultimately, they can’t own an American, but they can have their way with the immigrant they “rescued” from a terrible situation in another country.

I am rather uncomfortable with the knowledge that even our local food supply is handled by foreign workers. It may not just be salmonella tainted veggies next time, folks.

And don't tell me Americans will not take these jobs. We have been processing deer and elk for many seasons out of my garage. (Full set-up, state inspected) Yeah, it's gross, but it's extra cash.
September 11, 2008

11:16 a.m.

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jonas writes:

I'm surprised the article didn't discuss Federal labor law requirements. Doesn't it require when breaks are to be taken?
September 11, 2008

11:20 a.m.

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NeilT writes:

Oh...

It was legal slavery this time around. Last time, well, Swift got raided for illegal slavery.

Screw Swift!
September 11, 2008

11:23 a.m.

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cdmdenver writes:

OH I GET REMOVED BY STAFF

Well do me a favor RMN, cancel
my subscription to your "Rag"!
I can't believe I subscribed
to an Anti American publication
like Rocky Mountain Rag, Denver Pot.

I stick by my original statement
NO MUSLIM CONSIDERATIONS HERE!
BOYCOTT SWIFT! AN ANTI AMERICAN CO.
September 11, 2008

11:23 a.m.

Suggest removal

LOUIE writes:

Arby writes,"thier visa are for a specific job for a specific employer at a specific place. " If true ICE should cancel thier visas and send them home. The immigrants contract is done. I wonder how true that is. I know the government issues work visas, just not sure the criteria. Anybody aware of ICE's policies on work visas, that can state this unequivocally is true, and does it in fact pertain to these most unhappy new arrivals? Need that lawyer wherever you are that knows the visa system. I hate to see 3rd world people unhappy to be working in America, it must be paradise where they come from, wonder why they left? A least the latino immigrant is tickled to be here legally, and unflinchingly contributes whatever it takes to stay. Swift needs to review thier labor practices; is the cheap labor and use of illegals worth the hassle to have your corporate name constantly smeared in the media over labor issues?
September 11, 2008

11:29 a.m.

18Zwife writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 11, 2008

11:32 a.m.

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philvysor writes:

Now what will happen is that the union will file a grievence and all of these workers will return to work with pay.
September 11, 2008

11:34 a.m.

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LOUIE writes:

I don't agree with boycotting Swift as long as they use legal immigrants and not illegal. One doesn't violate the law and are welcome here, the other is here criminally, big difference. I could care less if they're Hari Krishnas from India, chanting "Harry Ram 'Em" over and over again at a chicken rendering plant, as long as they are here legally which these immigrants are. I would advocate a boycott if they continuiously used illegal labor, and the government should damn sure restrict purchases if that's the case. All government contractors should be screened to make sure they are in compliance with all laws as they pertain to labor regulations.
September 11, 2008

11:37 a.m.

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LOUIE writes:

18Zwife, I never forgot them dragging our soldiers bodies through the streets in Somolia; that was terrible.
September 11, 2008

11:45 a.m.

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LOUIE writes:

Phil, maybe Swift will take the republican Ronald Reagan's approach like he did with the air traffic controllers union and bust thier union up a little bit. It might be more profitable since it was an unsanctioned strike, that the union didn't authorize in violation of the union contract. That would be ballsy. I don't think they'll do it, but I don't think they have to hire them back after an illegal strike; company should fine the union for the illegal unsanctioned strike.
September 11, 2008

11:56 a.m.

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philvysor writes:

What Swift needs to do is prove that this was a "Wild Cat" strike, If they can do that there is no protection from the Union Management. And The Union would have to by law impose fines against the workers who caused this strike.
September 11, 2008

11:57 a.m.

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OhBrother writes:

Too funny! It seems like they got American pretty quick- start complaining and then threaten to sue! The main thing that bothers me is this company goes out of it's way to hire around 300 Muslim from a different country and then they are surprised they want time to celebrate Ramadan!? ( It’s not like this is a new holiday) I don't care what religion they follow, Swift mng. should have done some homework and been prepared for this since they CHOOSE to hire from outside the US!

I could care less if these people got fired because plenty of people get fired everyday due to company greed and the bottom line. Swift could have been trying to do the right thing by helping these people out due to their hardship but we all should be able to see that is just spin. They outsourced to make more money and when something (anything) came up that possibly would have prevented them from making the projected profit mark then it's time to cut them and get some more. and how much you want to bet that it won’t be people from Greeley!

Do you ever sit back and think, how bad are American workers that a company inside of America would rather hire from outside of the country and put up with stuff like this? Or is it how greedy must a company be to put profit over everything including hiring employees from it’s own backyard…but then again, our government not only allows this they promote it with tax breaks etc.
September 11, 2008

12:07 p.m.

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justal writes:

Is this the same Swift that made those boats back in Viet Nam?
September 11, 2008

12:23 p.m.

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gs writes:

Louie, I watched Black Hawk Down again the other night. I won't forget either. Expell these people!
September 11, 2008

12:23 p.m.

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Marshdale writes:

OhBrother you are right on the money. Swift obviously has failed to know anything about a culture and religious group of people they hired. They did no due diligence in hiring. Why is it that the rest of America gets their holliday but these people can't? Hipocricy at its finest in America. I believe all they were asking for is break time at certain times of the day to say their prayers? How hard is that to accomodate? I'm sure the Swift company executives are McPalin supporters. They are the Ebinezer Scrooges and Cruella de Vil's of the world.
September 11, 2008

12:48 p.m.

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philvysor writes:

RickyLee, you want to step up cool. Let me know I will put together a group of Illegal and US scum, I believe is the way you put it for you to share your views with.

P Martinez
Northglenn, Co.
September 11, 2008

12:54 p.m.

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angryrepublican writes:

Swift gave away American jobs at lower wages to imigrants to turn a greedy profit so I say let the ACLU rip the greedy b**t**r*s a new one!
September 11, 2008

1:05 p.m.

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navymom writes:

BRM writes:Seriously, ask yourself this: if a group of Red, White and Blue Christians were terminated en masse like this and they were simply asking their employer for time to PRAY, what would your response be? Just asking.

Christians would not ask for time off to pray because we understand that our work time belongs to the employer. I am currently a small business owner and have worked for large corporations as a low level employee in the past. Regardless, the work day belongs to the employer not the employee. If the employee does not want to abide by the schedule, he or she has no room to complain when the job is no longer his or hers.

Christians would not ask en masse for time off to pray at the work place. They might ask for time off to attend a meeting or convention, but it would be either vacation time, allowed personal days, or unpaid time. If not agreed to by the employer, they would either make the decision to leave the job or report for work.
If they make the decision to just not show up, then they should expect to not have a job the same as any other person. I am a Christian, btw.

BRM writes:

I'm sure that 150 newly-arrived Somalis thought, "yeah, we've got this huge multi-national 'over a barrel'". They were probably lucky to have their jobs but unyielding in their dogmatic beliefs.

They were savvy enough to know the system and call in the press.

BRM writes:
I'm not defending anyone's goofball religious rituals, I'm merely pointing out the rampant xenophobia that has crippled this country. A group of white-Christians workers makes this a non-story.

I do not, fyi, have a fear or hatred of strangers or foreigners. If the Somalis are in this country legally and working, I have no objection. I do object to people coming to the United States and demanding that business owners accommodate them in ways that reduce productivity, thereby raising the cost of goods to the American consumer. I don't like higher food costs anymore than the next person. What if this were not a meatpacker and immigrant employees? What if this were police officers, fireman, paramedics, emergency room doctors, etc? Would you like to be told by a 911 operator that you would have to wait for half an hour while your house is being broken into or is on fire because some of the personnel needed to respond are busy taking a break to "break their Ramadan fast"? Would you like to go to ER with a life threatening injury and be told "Sorry, you will have a 30 minute wait for surgery because the surgeon is a strict Muslim and is praying or breaking his Ramadan fast"? This affects more than just Swift's bottom line and their employees.

Here is a link to the EEOC website explaining religious accommodation. http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/qanda...

continued in next post
September 11, 2008

1:05 p.m.

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Cwillyrun1 writes:

Marshdale..... nobody is denying them their religious beliefs, get it? These people had a choice when they took the jobs, and knowing when the breaks are given by Swift management, they didn't bring the issue up until now. Now they want to complain when they knew all along what times breaks are given at? I don't think so.

Guess what........ there are many people who don't believe in working on Sundays due to their religious beliefs, but if they have to do something to earn money, they sacrifice and yet it doesn't mean they gave up their religion. Imagine if the people in that example said their employers had to follow their religious beliefs and let them rest while at work on Sunday.

Another thing, if you or others want to bring up Christmas, why is it people who don't believe in Christianity, Christmas or Christ will still take the Christmas holiday off?
September 11, 2008

1:06 p.m.

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navymom writes:

These paragraphs, in particular, could pertain to Swift's case.

"9. When does an accommodation pose an “undue hardship”?

An accommodation would pose an undue hardship if it –would cause more than de minimis cost on the operation of the employer’s business. Factors relevant to undue hardship may include the type of workplace, the nature of the employee’s duties, the identifiable cost of the accommodation in relation to the size and operating costs of the employer, and the number of employees who will in fact need a particular accommodation.

Costs to be considered include not only direct monetary costs but also the burden on the conduct of the employer’s business. For example, courts have found undue hardship where the accommodation diminishes efficiency in other jobs, infringes on other employees’ job rights or benefits, impairs workplace safety, or causes co-workers to carry the accommodated employee’s share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work. Whether the proposed accommodation conflicts with another law will also be considered.

To prove undue hardship, the employer will need to demonstrate how much cost or disruption a proposed accommodation would involve. An employer cannot rely on potential or hypothetical hardship when faced with a religious obligation that conflicts with scheduled work, but rather should rely on objective information. A mere assumption that many more people with the same religious practices as the individual being accommodated may also seek accommodation is not evidence of undue hardship.

If an employee’s proposed accommodation would pose an undue hardship, the employer should explore alternative accommodations."

In other words, if it more than minimally affects production Swift can refuse the request just the same as they could refuse to let 200 or more strict Jewish employees have off to observe the Jewish Sabbath each week or 200 or more Christians have off to attend church each week because it more than minimally affects production to have that many people not on the line. That is why Christians have always understood that they may not always have Sunday off to attend church.
September 11, 2008

1:12 p.m.

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Cwillyrun1 writes:

Nice posts navymom!
September 11, 2008

1:14 p.m.

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rkoehler writes:

The plain and simple fact is that Swift has violated the law and will be sued and have to restore these hardworking people to fullness. Swift will have to pay just compensation due to their violations of law. That is the plain and simple truth of the matter.
September 11, 2008

1:16 p.m.

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navymom writes:

Cwillyrun1 writes: Another thing, if you or others want to bring up Christmas, why is it people who don't believe in Christianity, Christmas or Christ will still take the Christmas holiday off?

People who don't believe in Christianity, Christmas, or Christ will take the day off as a paid holiday without thinking twice. You can be guaranteed that those same people would also be the first to scream bloody-murder if they were the ones who had to hold down the fort at work instead of some Christian.
September 11, 2008

1:18 p.m.

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rkoehler writes:

They take off Christmas because the factories, businesses, warehouses, etc. shut down and they cannot go to work when they are locked out!
September 11, 2008

1:31 p.m.

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Hola writes:

No wonder Somalia is such a dump, no one there wants to work.
September 11, 2008

1:42 p.m.

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Cwillyrun1 writes:

rkoehler........ those people don't protest having Christmas off, do they? Do they go to management and let them know they don't believe in it and would rather work than have the day off? When you can answer yes, then your point might be valid.
September 11, 2008

1:42 p.m.

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fntsymtn writes:

You all do know that Ramadan does not fall on the same days every year, right? So equating having breaks after the Ramadan fast to getting the exact same day (or days) off every year (e.g. December 25th) for a Christian holiday is ludicrous.

The days to grant a special break to employees during the month of Ramadan will change from year to year. A business might as well adopt the Islamic Calendar so they can guarantee that the fast will occur during the same (9th) month every year.
September 11, 2008

1:52 p.m.

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philvysor writes:

Hillbilly, Why do they have to be LAtino's?
September 11, 2008

1:52 p.m.

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navymom writes:

Intrepid writes:

"APARTHEID IS ALIVE AND WELL IN COLORADO!"

Beeteatergrins replies: "And this statement brings to light the declining education system in this Country."

Beefeatergrins, you are correct if in saying this you agree that the declining education system in this country is what has led to the decline of work ethic in this country and the rise of a society that believes that they are "entitled" to everything from food stamps to a job that will pay them a wage whether they put in an honest day's work or not. Employees should understand that it is the employer who sets the job description, work hours, etc. The government has put some constraints upon the employer, such as overtime requirements, breaks, safe work environments, etc., but ultimately it is the employer who provides your job and pays your wages. It is the employer who is risking his money to supply you with that job. It is the employer who sometimes loses that money, not the employee.

Just look at the current election campaign and you will see the promises being made to help those poor people who don't pay taxes by taking more from those who pay 70% of the taxes in this country to give to those who pay the other 30% or none at all. I happen to fall into the 30% category at this point in time, but am trying to get to the 70% category with our family business. Why should I strive to get there if I am only going to have to give most of what I make to those who want to complain about not being accommodated and walk off the job, probably go on welfare and cost me more money?

Intrepid, check out what apartheid was before calling this apartheid. Apartheid was specifically "a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa". It was not religious in nature, it was racially motivated. The last time I checked, this was a story about religious accommodation it the workplace, not racial discrimination. If apartheid was alive and well in Colorado, there would be no minority politicians allowed, minorities would only be allowed to work the most menial jobs and we would have separate bathrooms and water fountains. I have yet to see any bathroom says whites only, although transgenders are now allowed thanks, in part, to good ole Bernie Buescher.
September 11, 2008

1:53 p.m.

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rkoehler writes:

Cwillyrun1, Yes, I did protest!
September 11, 2008

1:59 p.m.

roger44 writes:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 11, 2008

2:18 p.m.

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MsValeriah writes:

Hey, did any of you with your xenophobic rants demanding that these people (HUMAN BEINGS) be sent back to Somalia happen to read Seeker's post? These people were refugees fleeing genocide and other atrocities, they were not perpetrators. Regardless of where you stand on whether or not Swift was justified in firing them, they came here to get away from terrorism in their own country. Have some compassion, people. For those of you to whom it applies, it's supposed to be a Christian virtue. Yikes. What a bunch of hateful people. Shame on you.
September 11, 2008

2:38 p.m.

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philvysor writes:

MsValeriah, Haven't you heard Illegal immigrants are not humans. Their "SCUM". Isn't that right RickyLee?
September 11, 2008

3:45 p.m.

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LOUIE writes:

Look, I love my families businesses; we accomendate many beliefs, and people from all walks of life, all races and nationalities. However, you walk out the door on me, and leave us hanging without notice or warning, because of your beliefs, keep on walking! I'll find someone else. We once owned a business, a restaurant across from Cliff Youngs and Dante Blachets on Capitol Hill about 10 years ago, where we were partners with a muslim family as catholics. We served Indian cusine upstairs, with a bar downstairs. The help in the kitchen was all muslim, we ran the bar. The kitchen help's tatered little prayer rugs, thier humble and honest nature was an assest that blended well with our ruthless ambitions in business. We payed them extremely well. They never walked out on us, and they cared about us and the feeling was mutual. We actually took our help from another Indian restaurant, when our partner disclosed how the owner of that restaurant abused them, and kept them in perpetual debt in order to maintain thier employment. Between our business partner and our family, our actions that day created a very loyal staff in our restaurants. What the other owner was doing to these immigrant indians was illegal, he had no where to go when my brothers and I, along with our partners son Sujat, walked in and muscled him out of his help. What makes this intresting to me today, long after we sold out the business, the owner of that restaurant where we physically stepped in on, was also a muslim from India. Go figure. Man was a ruthless tyrant, placing his own people in perpetual debt and servitude. Today, Sujat and his family (our former business partners), remain very close to us, we're both a phone call away from helping each other when crap hits. Still you walk out on us, keep on trucking. We got the place cheap as a murder happened there and destroyed the business. Wish we'd have bought the property as well. I hate restaurant, too much labor, too much work, not enough cash as my family has had two of them so far as side businesses. We count on our people, yet we can only accomendate so much before it become injurious to our bottom line. Swift was correct in telling them to walk in my estimation, there is only so much any business can accomendate with private religious concerns before it damages business.
September 11, 2008

3:47 p.m.

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MsValeriah writes:

I realize you're sticking up for me, philvysor, but these Somali workers are here legally on visas. I can accept the point of view that people of various faiths have to deal with the fact of working during their religious holidays for one reason or another; what I find extremely disturbing is the amount of hatred and bigotry that is alive and well here in the United States, as pointed out in many peoples' commentaries within this thread, and others I've read on this site. Not all people of Islamic beliefs are terrorists and should not be lumped together with those who are.
September 11, 2008

4:25 p.m.

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LOUIE writes:

Yes, MsValeriah, it's in ever country, but unlike most countries where it exists, to include Europe, America has yet to dig mass graves. Thier everywhere but not here. Thus I'd say America handles it's problem better that most nations did throughout history. I don't care for racism, but it's not illegal to voice the opinions of one unless they harm someone else. Sad, but many hide behind a computer, and are truly rasicts, many get accused because the don't favor the accusors opinion, but thier rights stop at the next guys nose. In someways, the freedom of speech by far outweighs the censorship thereof. In thier own country, thier own people of the same race, and thier government were more of a threat to thier safety than America is, even with the racists that are prevalent in our society. It's why so many come here, in thier own country, even those of thier own belief and race are more injurious to thier safety than Americans are. Here, they have rights, thier country they have no one to stand up and protect them much less rights like we enjoy. America isn't to bad!
September 11, 2008

5:04 p.m.

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Altidude writes:

My favorite part of this whole article (paper one) was the quote "we're looking at this as a racial action". WTF? Not only is Islam NOT a race(and neither is Somali, it's an ethnicity), those that follow it are sure as hell not one race. Also, Africa is NOT, repeat, NOT code for "black". (Egypt, Libya, South Africa, Morocco, etc). Where do folks learn that if things don't go your way, play the race card? And can we PLEASE take that damn card out of the deck?
September 11, 2008

7 p.m.

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Sixtysixdeuce writes:

"The plain and simple fact is that Swift has violated the law and will be sued and have to restore these hardworking people to fullness. Swift will have to pay just compensation due to their violations of law. That is the plain and simple truth of the matter."

No laws were broken. This was not an act of discrimination, nor was it a refusal to accomodate their beliefs. It was terminating employees who failed to fullfill their contract as such.

Most of us would put our employment in jeopardy if we walked out or failed to show up when we were scheduled to work. And the more menial the job, the more likely such acts will not be tolerated, as unskilled laborers are quite abundant these days.

These people are obviously not thinking individuals, or they would have realized there is a lot more at stake than a paycheck; On a work visa, if you lose the job, you face deportation. Most all of us have to deal with at least some unfavorable aspects at our place of employment, and we accept that these are concessions we must make if we intend to earn an income. Try to tell an employer how it is, and they'll likely tell you where you can go.

In my career field, I'm at the top of my game; it's never taken me more than 24 hours to find a new job when I become discontent with the one I have. That leaves me in a position to negotiate pretty hard with an employer when need be. But I would still expect to be out of a job if my boss told me "don't show up tomorrow, and you're history".

Except in an emergency, a no-call/no-show is a very disrespectful and even contemptuous act and shouldn't be tolerated.
September 11, 2008

7:05 p.m.

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rkoehler writes:

The plain and simple fact is that Swift has violated the law and will be sued and have to restore these hardworking people to fullness. Swift will have to pay just compensation due to their violations of law. That is the plain and simple truth of the matter.
September 12, 2008

9:13 a.m.

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lcs067 writes:

cwillyrun - Racist? Yeah, that's why I'm voting for Barack Obama (?!) Racist against rich white Republican males, maybe.

I do believe that many of America's problems, including the weakened economy, can be attributed in part to uncontrolled immigration, and I stand by that.
September 12, 2008

10:42 a.m.

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slocatch writes:

If I had ever been one to walk out in mass in my day, I would have been fired also. Denver native
September 12, 2008

11:18 a.m.

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navymom writes:

lcs067, Go ahead and vote for Obama.

This is the caliber of students coming out of his alma mater, Columbia University. The following quote, in response to McCain and Obama stating that ROTC should be allowed on all college campuses, is from a news article after the 9/11 forum "Added student Alex Shachner: 'I think there should be no militaries in the world, at all. No militaries, at all. No presidents either, but start with no militaries.' "

If this is the mentality of the students who, in all likelihood, will be voting for Barack Obama, we are in trouble in this country. Let's do away with militaries, presidents, government and, while we are at it, the law. What will be left? Chaos and a societal breakdown into something out of Judge Dredd.

It is amazing that Barack Obama is saying that he supports the ROTC, which is a great recruiting organization for the military which Obama says that he wants to rebuild, on all college campuses, yet nowhere in his long National Service Plan does he address the problem of liberal universities, like his alma mater, banning ROTC. If he were serious, he would have addressed this in his plan and promoted denying funding to these universities.

Here is the link to his National Service Plan that will cost $3.5 billion a year in his estimation. He, of course, will fund this by taking from corporations. http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/Nation...

As to the Somali Muslims, they have learned our system very quickly and have become very adept at forcing companies bend to there will. Should we allow 15% of the workforce to walk off the line every time they are required to pray? I don't think so, but an attorney, Joe Snodgrass, in Minnesota was successful in forcing Gold'n Plump to concede to not only that, but also to making concessions for their 9 Somali Muslim employees not to have to handle pork.

Sharia law is alive and well in the United States!
September 12, 2008

11:22 a.m.

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slocatch writes:

Seniority mandated time off work in my day. Looks like they are learning the hard way. We work harder and more consistantly than any other country in the world.
September 12, 2008

11:48 a.m.

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FlyfishDude52 writes:

I sure wish I could "taylor-make" my job description. And change what I will and will not do after being hired. Who do these people think they are. If the aclu or any other ambulance chasing lawyer takes this as a case they should be disbarred for taking such frivolous quasi-legal action.

The company I work for is very diverse. We have catholics, baptist's, methodist's, lutherans, presbyterian's and non-denominational christians and believe it or not we don't have any issues about "time off to pray." We recognize those same holidays that the US government does and nobody complains or expects special dispensation or priveleges. Maybe the roots of our country are calling us back....
I work in a company that has no muslim employees.
September 12, 2008

1:28 p.m.

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0tiger1 writes:

I think one of the problems here is that most people don't know very much about Islam. There are five "pillars" or commandments, and one is to prayer five times a day and fast during the month of Ramadan. This means that a) these people have not eaten or drunk *anything*---not even water---since sunrise and that they are *required* by their faith to break their fast with water and to pray at sundown, which is about 7:30 right now. This is the same as a Christian being told to keep the Sabbath holy or not commit adultery. (I'm sure if Christians were not allowed to go to church most of the good people on this list would object to that.) America was founded on the principle of freedom---both religious freedom and the right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness," which I think we can all agree includes working an honest job. As someone pointed out these people are refugees; they did not choose to leave their country, and they are dealing with horrific violent pasts as well as a language barrier. Their job and educational opportunities are severely limited so they can't just go to college or find a new job. All they ask is to work hard for a relatively low wage and to practice their religion in a way that does not harm anyone else or the company as a whole. And getting a break at 8 p.m. is not helpful---it would be like saying to a Christian, you can go to church on Monday instead. Please have a little compassion---for everyone ideally, but especially for those in such an unfortunate position.
God Bless.
September 12, 2008

2:25 p.m.

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navymom writes:

0tiger1 writes: This means that a) these people have not eaten or drunk *anything*---not even water---since sunrise and that they are *required* by their faith to break their fast with water and to pray at sundown, which is about 7:30 right now. This is the same as a Christian being told to keep the Sabbath holy or not commit adultery. (I'm sure if Christians were not allowed to go to church most of the good people on this list would object to that.)

Don't presume to know what most of the people on this thread would or would not object to.

I am a Christian. I have, in my lifetime of working, been required to work on Sundays, the traditional day of worship and rest for Christian, many times. My husband and I work on Sundays many times because our customers require the work to be done when it is needed, not when it is convenient to us. Hospitals, trucking companies, grocery stores, gas stations, police departments, amusement parks, and many other employers require Christians to work on Sundays every week. If a Christian were to say that I will not ever work on Sunday because it is my firmly held belief that Sunday is a commanded day of rest, that Christian would not long have a job. Employers would hire someone else and find a reason to fire the Christian without getting in trouble for it. We used to, in the United States, have blue laws which required that all but essential businesses be closed on Sundays. Those laws were repealed in most states long ago in response to complaints by non-Christians. As a result, many more people are now required to work on Sundays. Christians understand that it is a fact of life today and that, if they want to have a job, they must work.

God does not condemn us because we must work to feed our families. Evidently, Allah does.

As for breaking their fast, I am sorry, but, I have gone many times without food or water for 12 or more hours. It is not that long a period of time.

Home › News › Local News

Swift fires 130 Muslim workers after Ramadan dispute

Rocky wire reports

Published September 10, 2008 at 6:21 p.m.Updated September 11, 2008 at 9:04 a.m.

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Published September 10, 2008 at 6:21 p.m.
Updated September 11, 2008 at 9:04 a.m.