Muslim workers, Swift can't resolve Ramadan issue
Chris Casey, The (Greeley) Tribune
Published September 8, 2008 at 1:19 p.m.
Sara Loven © The (Greeley) Tribune
Greeley JBS Swift meatpacking plant Muslim employees congregate in Lincoln Park at 10th Avenue and 9th Street on Monday Sept. 8, 2008 to hear the comprimise reached by the Somali Muslim community leaders and the executives at Swift. The workers are asking the company to allow them to have their break at 7:30 p.m. to break their fast.
Photo by Sara Loven © The (Greeley) Tribune
Abdullahi Abdirahman, a Somali community leader in Greeley, spoke to the Muslim Swift workers about the negotiations between the company and the workers regarding their break times on Monday at Lincoln Park at 10th Avenue and 9th Street. About 150 second shift workers attended the talk.
GREELEY — Talks between JBS Swift & Co. officials and Muslim workers seeking prayer breaks during Ramadan broke down Tuesday afternoon and turned into calls of breach of contract.
The roughly 250 workers, who've been suspended since walking off the job Friday night, say they will not return to work and may take legal action. They also acknowledge they may face mass terminations.
A midafternoon meeting between the Muslim representatives and about 80 of the suspended workers grew heated in a downtown Greeley park when the representatives relayed information to the crowd.
When workers learned the company would not allow break times for prayer, many shouted and crowded in around a gazebo from which the representatives spoke. Within 30 minutes, workers split into smaller groups and milled around the park.
Complaints of on-the-job discrimination and harassment as well as non-responsive union representation marked the second straight day in which hundreds of Muslims, mostly Somalis who have been hired Swift in the past year, gathered in the Greeley park.
For more coverage from The Tribune, click here.
September 8, 2008
1:25 p.m.
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me2 writes:
so pray in your head and carry a candy bar.
September 8, 2008
1:31 p.m.
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CWW writes:
Tough toenails. If you're religion is more important than your job, you made your choice. Don't whine about it. You should be happy you get to stay home to fast and pray.
September 8, 2008
1:42 p.m.
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sue27 writes:
Changing a break time for a few weeks seems fully reasonable and within the company's ability. Since the workers asked for the change before Ramadan began, and were granted the adjustment, the company needs to stick with it. If the praying period lasts longer than a standard break, can't the workers stay a bit late to cover for it?
For the other workers who are complaining, does the company have time off for Christmas?
September 8, 2008
2:12 p.m.
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Buckwheat writes:
I have no problem with them marching. The company changed their minds at the last minute after they had already agreed to a specific request. I'd be pzd also. I don't care what religion they are, a deal is a deal and Swift should have stood behind it.
September 8, 2008
2:24 p.m.
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blacksho89 writes:
Doesn't that plant process pork?
Mmmmm....bacon......
September 8, 2008
2:25 p.m.
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Hambone writes:
12 hours without food? do it all the time. It's called sleeping.
Isn't Ramadan a month long? Seems like a bit of request.
Maybe they can get a jobs driving cabs here in town. Should be able to take their breaks when Muhammed says so.
September 8, 2008
2:26 p.m.
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don3422 writes:
I see no problem with the company allowing them to change their break time to allow them to pray, in fact they would be doing something good without it costing them anything.
September 8, 2008
2:29 p.m.
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DeimosJB writes:
A private company should be allowed to run its business however it likes. If it wants to conduct its business in English only, or have its breaks at a certain time, or mandate a certain dress code, it has every right to do so. Of course consumers have a right to support or not to support such firms, and therein is the beauty of capitalism.
To answer AmaranthArticia, yes, I have gone 12 hours without food many times. Most posters here probably have. It's called fasting, and it's done by many religious people in the world, such as Christians. Some fasting, such as mentioned above, also involves no drink. It's not a burden, and you get used to it very quickly. In fact, I find that by using the time that I would have normally devoted to food to prayer instead, I feel more energized than if I had eaten a meal.
September 8, 2008
2:39 p.m.
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Shaggy writes:
If Obama gets elected he will make sure these Muslims get all the time they want to pray.
September 8, 2008
2:45 p.m.
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Squatch writes:
Very nice to see Americans get the shaft again to save money. Thanks again for selling America out I guess if there was a way to send all the meat to another country to be packed you would do it. At least they got rid of the illegal’s just to bring legal Muslims that wont leave & Disappear after their Visa's expire. Jobs well done!
September 8, 2008
2:49 p.m.
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riverrafter writes:
First- is the time change they requested impacting the normal operations of the company? Is it a burden on other workers to accomodate them?
Second- Why was the request first accomodated and then denied? Was in in response to the other worker's protests?
Third- If the request can be reasonably accomodated and the plant operations not impacted, what purpose would it serve to deny the request?
Flex schedules are the heart and soul of any productive company. Happy workers are more committed, more productive and more loyal.
What's really going on here?
September 8, 2008
2:50 p.m.
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kathyM writes:
Don't get your shorts in a twist. History is merely repeating itself. The same panic of "OMG they're taking over!" happened when the flood of Irish (Catholics) came to the U.S. Employers were baffled then, too, that the Catholics dared want to go to Mass during the week or take time off for religious holidays that the Protestants rejected during the Reformation (e.g., 500 years ago). The same freakout happened when JFK--a Catholic--ran for President. Some predicted JFK's win as the beginning of forced Catholicism in the U.S. Sounds ridiculous today, doesn't it?
Things won't go to *(#&*% in a handbasket because Muslim immigrants want to live here. The huge Muslim community in SE Michigan (Detroit) is an example. Those folks have done all the good things that millions of new Americans do: work hard, raise their families, follow their faith, contribute to the community. Add the beautiful mosques, interesting cultures (and awesome foods), and you have another great ingredient for our Melting Pot.
This insulated part of the country is not so insulated anymore. Get over it.
September 8, 2008
3:06 p.m.
HSTOWEL writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
September 8, 2008
3:12 p.m.
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Scott writes:
In a production line environment it is darn tough to change the schedule without impacting the product flow of the production line. If you don't like the pace, timing of breaks or anything else, then find another job.
Scott
September 8, 2008
3:21 p.m.
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ActualThinker writes:
Aren't many of you critcizing these Muslims the same people that complain about taking prayer out of schools, and other religious issues? So is it only relevant then what the religion is YOUR religion but anyone who believes different can deal with it?
September 8, 2008
3:23 p.m.
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Marshdale writes:
You people are way to freaked out over this. They are people, human beings like the rest of us. Maybe we should make all christians work on Christmas. Would you like that?
September 8, 2008
3:26 p.m.
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blacksho89 writes:
Marshdale: Sure. Christmas is not a Christian holiday.
I prefer not to work on Resurrection Sunday, though.
September 8, 2008
3:28 p.m.
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Scott writes:
Marshdale,
1: Christmas is a Federal holiday, just like Memorial Day, The 4th, etc.. President Grant made Christmas a Federal holiday.
2: A number of Christians do work on Christmas day. The first that come to mind are emergency services workers, hospital employees and the military.
3: <repeat> If you don't like the pace, timing of breaks or anything else, then find another job <repeat_end>
Scott
September 8, 2008
3:35 p.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
Marshdale,
Being that 7/8 or roughly 75-83 percent of American's are Christian or of that particular faith group (Catholic, etc,) and over 60 percent of store, local, state, and national are operational during Christmas......I am afraid I do not follow? I'm Christian and I work Christmas, if only half a day?
You lost me, thats stupid sounding. Please rephrase that. Most your type love bashing the Christian Majority every time you want to assert a point. Please research your facts before you blurt out your stupidity and bias.
As for the subject of this article? Why should they, Muslims' always be favored over other religious (not racial) groups? Is it because the risk of vast and violent behavoir, the "consequences" so to speak, for not obeying they're demands?
If they refuse to work the schedule demanded, supplied and agreed upon when they were hired, than they dont work. Period. Stupid people like you ruin the work force by lobbying to submit to every whim of every minority. Its a business, let it do its job. If they want something that works for them seek elsewhere that isn't time demanding.
I.
September 8, 2008
3:37 p.m.
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jugdish writes:
Big_D
"paying Americans a living wage"
you refer to this several times. Do you know what these Somalis and other Muslims mentioned in the article get paid? I'll bet its several dollars north of minimum wage. What is a living wage to you for working in a meat processing plant? $60 grand a year and a pension plus benefits? You threw it out there. Back it up with some facts and figures.
Working in a meat processing plant is nasty work most americans avoid. there are many americans who could come to work at Swift and earn money. But they won't take the job.
Like Eddie, I suspect many of them are holding out for a management position.
September 8, 2008
3:42 p.m.
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deriko2282 writes:
Swift is once again making itself famous by highlighting its practice of hiring immigrant workers only to pay them less than standard wages and denying them the same rights as citizens. If only conservatives would realize that their financial supporters (Swift&Co.) are the ones bringing foreign workers to the US at the expense of American jobs, only for their personal profit.
September 8, 2008
3:45 p.m.
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windbourne writes:
Some of you really need to grow up. What is wrong with you. If were told to report to work on Xmas day, Thanksgiving, july 4th, etc, or be fired, you would be LIVID. More importantly, these folks are going for long periods of time with little food/water. All they wanted was a bit of time for a small feast. This is in a FOOD PLANT. Worse, these ppl have knives. You get tired and sloppy without food. More mistakes are made. These ppl were not asking for more money. These are not illegal aliens from mexico that some of you state. These are simple folks living here legally, trying to make a living by doing an honest day's work.
September 8, 2008
3:50 p.m.
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scootertrash writes:
I agree with Scott, many christians work on Christmas, besides the ones he mentioned, there are waiters and waitresses and many other occupations catering to everyone elses needs on that day. A company should be able to make it schedules how ever they want, if the workers don't like it, they can find a new job!!
September 8, 2008
3:55 p.m.
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riosmom6 writes:
Many members of my (Christian) family work on Christmas, Easter and many other religious days. We plan our family celebrations to accomodate their work schedules. It's pretty single minded to think Christians employess don't have to work on their holidays. In addition, I've never know a Muslim, Jew or Buddhist who objected to getting a day off at Christmas, either !!
September 8, 2008
4:02 p.m.
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mt writes:
What is wrong with you windy. People are told all the time to go to work on those holidays or be fired. Do you think all of america takes those days off and the country shuts down? What about the non muslims that work at the plant that don't want their break times to change for someone elses religion. The muslims knew the breaks and the times when they took the job. The company should not have to change to make it more comfortable for the employees. The employees should quit if they don't like it and find a more accomidating job. If they work with knives and it is dangerous when they don't eat then they should eat and not fast. Plain and simple. Do the job your employeer pays you for, follow the rules or move on to other employment.
September 8, 2008
4:15 p.m.
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TheDenverB writes:
racism is alive and well in Denver, Colorado today.
"Islam isn't a joke, and it needs to leave American shores and stay in its historical boundries of the Middle East; where it can do less harm."
You are a joke and need to leave American shores, sir.
September 8, 2008
4:29 p.m.
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Red writes:
Wow. Denver is a lot more closed minded than I ever thought we were.
You all need to open your eyes and close your mouths and think a bit.
September 8, 2008
4:34 p.m.
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Kinetic1 writes:
I have never seen such a bunch in intolerant folks in all my life! Really! Do you think Jesus would tell them to "Carry a candybar?" What happened to love they neighbor? Do unto others, etc...
September 8, 2008
4:36 p.m.
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Brockage writes:
Kvetch, kvetch, kvetch -- that seems to be the major hobby of moslems. Try for a new hobby like maybe adapting to the larger world around you instead of deluding yourself into thinking the world is going to conform to your desires.
In other words, grow up. It's about time.
September 8, 2008
4:37 p.m.
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BroncoDan writes:
Why can't we all just get along...
September 8, 2008
4:40 p.m.
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mrwiizrd writes:
"Islam:
When owning another human being as property is just what you need to do."
Might want to take a quick look back at what Christians did to Africans a few hundred years back.
September 8, 2008
4:48 p.m.
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Red writes:
Brockage-
Practicing religion does not mean you adapt to the world around you.
Grab a dictionary and look up the word 'respect'.
Then try to put it into practice.
September 8, 2008
5:17 p.m.
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junglegymco writes:
Wow - the fanatical nut jobs are out in force today. What's so tough about asking a company to make a minor agreement for a religious act (and remember nut-jobs - ALL religious freedom, NOT just Christianity, is an inherent part of our Constitution. It's called FREEDOM OF RELIGION). This is also a FLAGRANT violation of Title VII of The Civil Rights Act of 1964 that says employers must make a reasonable accommodation for religious beliefs. I hope SWIFFT gets a SWIFT kick in the a** for its disgustingly anti-religious behavior. And I hope you whiners also try to become more American and actually try to DEFEND the U.S. Constitution and the laws of our land, instead of trying to find ways around them when they conflict with your bigotry.
September 8, 2008
5:18 p.m.
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TheDenverB writes:
"Try for a new hobby like maybe adapting to the larger world around you instead of deluding yourself into thinking the world is going to conform to your desires."
some would say the same thing for the Christians in this country... or specifically to you for wanting them to conform to what you see as 'the larger world' (when my guess is that your view of the world is myopically smaller than most Muslims who come over to America from another country to better themselves like your ancestors did).
September 8, 2008
6:02 p.m.
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coarizona writes:
Many people work on their religious or personal holidays. I think when you apply for a job you agree to the conditions of employment. If it infringes on your religious or personal needs...time to get another job.
September 8, 2008
6:10 p.m.
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roger44 writes:
many of you seem to forget this is the United states of America.
20 years ago Americans were doing this work at a wage of around $19 an hr. When they brought in the illegals it went down to around 11 bucks. now they compensate by using these people. if you start letting these folks use religion as a reason to disrupt production, then you had better prepare to do the same with every one in the plant. do that and you may as well close the doors.
September 8, 2008
6:23 p.m.
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SheikYurBooty writes:
DenverB writes:
"racism is alive and well in Denver, Colorado today.
"Islam isn't a joke, and it needs to leave American shores and stay in its historical boundries of the Middle East; where it can do less harm."
You are a joke and need to leave American shores, sir."
What race is Islam?????
************************************************
As for those trying to make a moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam, does it occur to you that your Christian examples are hundreds of years old, because there are no current ones? Islam **CURRENTLY**calls for forcing all non-Muslims to convert, submit to Islamic rule under Sharia, or be warred upon. It calls for making non-Muslims feel "subdued." There is no such equivalent to these mandates in other religions. So-called "radical Muslims" are nothing other than Muslims who take their religion to heart.
This business in Greeley is the camel's nose under the tent (pun intended) and is a classic case of "Sharia creep."
September 8, 2008
6:25 p.m.
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Thewiseman writes:
Just wait for the next civil war! It ain't going to be pretty.
September 8, 2008
6:42 p.m.
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tfooq writes:
why do the crazies always come out on the newspaper article comments? Are there people who seriously just wait for an article to be posted that mentions or hints at the existence of an underrepresented population so that they can say racist/classist/sexist things?
why do you spend so much time being bigots? is it really that rewarding?
September 8, 2008
6:48 p.m.
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SheikYurBooty writes:
tfooq - can you name ANYTHING on Earth that is more sexist than Islam???
September 8, 2008
7:29 p.m.
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PACE2008 writes:
the workers are part of a union?
September 8, 2008
7:43 p.m.
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windbourne writes:
mt; re-read the article; They had asked the management and had permission. For some odd reason, they reneged on it. What was being asked for, and had been granted earlier, was not a big deal. And BTW, I worked there when it was Monfort (pre-conagra). The old man would gladly have allowed it as long as ppl got their work done.
September 8, 2008
8:18 p.m.
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jpkiljan writes:
Well, even Ebenezer Scrooge let Bob Cratchit have Christmas day off. I hope Swift doesn't think the Ramadan fast is just another kind of "poor excuse for picking a man's pocket every twenty-fifth of December!" It's a good company with good products and it helps Colorado's economy. I try to buy products from companies that treat their employees well and I'm willing to pay that extra nickel a pound for my bacon if that's what it takes. Why Swift seems to go out of its way to attract bad press is a mystery to me. -J
September 8, 2008
8:20 p.m.
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Rocky2 writes:
Give them a taste of the good 'ol American worker, FIRE them Like Reagan fires 11,000 striking air traffic controllers Aug. 5, 1981 ...
Go to Work!
September 8, 2008
8:44 p.m.
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Delcycer writes:
There are a lot of circular, self-deceptive dreamers out today! "It's called Capitalism!"
Really. Because it's unregulated or under regulated market forces that pulled those wages down, to the point where most of white America was just too "good" to do the job. It is underegulated market forces that export jobs. It is a part of our Constitution that companies must make reasonable accomodations in circumstances like these.
If the accomodations weren't reasonable, they should have been refused in the first place--and they weren't. Which means that any way you slice it, someone or several someones in charge of operations management at Swift is an idiot, period. Or a coward. If you can't say no to people in the first place you shouldn't be in management. And if you back down when employees question a decision, you shouldn't be in management.
Seems to me that no matter what the reasons are, someone up in Greely has NO BUSINESS managing a business.
September 8, 2008
8:58 p.m.
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navymom writes:
What's with disappearing posts? There were a number of posts from mytwosense on here earlier to which I wanted to respond but did not have time and now they are gone. This happens often. Can anyone tell me why?
September 8, 2008
9:09 p.m.
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HopiMedicineMan writes:
That's all I need, another flock of immigrants. We can beat the white liberals. They'll just turn the country back to us because they think it's ours. But the Koran indicates all land unowned by Muslims is frontier. It's going to be harder to remove them.
Navymom,
Posts disappear all the time. Mytwosense is intelligent, has some potential, and certainly not one of those adolescent name-callers. Why they remove her stuff I have no idea. I've had posts removed too.
September 8, 2008
9:31 p.m.
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titancain writes:
Next year, my company will celebrate Gay Pride! I'm going to force my employees to meet and great the HOMOS!
I pay them so I own them! Praise Capitalism!
September 8, 2008
10:12 p.m.
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Hola writes:
Non immigrants don't show up to work they get fired. Immigrants have more rights than citizens. Shameful.
September 8, 2008
10:14 p.m.
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Hola writes:
Love the Burqas too. Women forced to hide themselves out of shame of being women. Welcome to the new West I guess.
September 8, 2008
10:18 p.m.
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jhdteacher writes:
reversal of religious accommodations?
how about not reporting to work because you're torturing and slaughtering helpless animals?
September 8, 2008
10:41 p.m.
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solar_satellite writes:
I'm not going to address the substance of the article, but I do want to address the subject of religion. Mohameddanism (which has nothing to do with peace, and so should not be called Islam) is not a religion, but a unitary system of beliefs concerning religion and society. It doctrinally divides the world into dar-al-Islam (the house of Peace) and dar al-Harb (the house of War); we live in the latter. Mohameddanism does indeed scripturally sanction making war on anyone who opposes it until the entire world is subjugated to itself. It scripturally sanctions killing or enslaving anyone not "of the Book", i.e. Jews or Christians, and this is exactly what happened to the Persian nation, whose people were Zoroastrian (only a tiny remnant survive, the Parsees) and the Hindus of northern India. "People of the Book" have a slight dispensation made for them in that while they must still be subjugated, they may keep their lives, property, and faith, so long as they submit to Mohameddan overlordship (as Dhimmis). It is certainly true that Christians have killed and enslaved, but there is no scriptural basis for those actions; they are not specifically enjoined on Christians (or Jews) as jihad is on Mohameddans. If you read the Old Testament, you will find numerous instances of God instructing the Jews to go smite this or that nation, but there is nothing like the blanket, specific injunction to convert, kill, or enslave the rest of the world which is explicit in the Mohameddan Hadith (the sayings of the Prophet) and Koran in either the Old or New Testaments. For these reasons, it is naive to think that Mohameddans are part of any "melting pot", or to imagine that their extreme and bellicose beliefs can mellow. It is true that Mohameddanism is not monolithic, and it is important to distinguish its doctrinal character from the behavior of individual adherents, but its relation to other belief systems is in no wise comparable to that which exists between say Catholicism and Protestantism. I commend the book 'The Sword of the Prophet' to you. While it is true that this was written by a partisan Orthodox Christian from the Balkans, where the conflict between Christians and Mohameddans was sharpest and of the longest standing, I have never heard the author's contentions about the nature of Mohameddanism refuted.
September 8, 2008
11 p.m.
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SheikYurBooty writes:
solar_satellite - good post. Minor point - Islam means "submission"
Peace is "Salaam"
September 8, 2008
11:28 p.m.
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MileHighPatriot writes:
Islam: religion of intolerance
September 9, 2008
1:15 a.m.
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1world writes:
If the company agreed to allowing different break times in respect for Ramadan, the break times should be honored. Any other answer to this are shades of prejudice.
There are very few negative statements above that have any other basis to them than a prejudice toward an innocent group of people. It is a shame that there are so many people that are that narrow minded to have succumbed to the Fear Mongering that our politicians, religious leaders and radio show hosts have espoused since 9-11.
I spent 5 years working in the Middle East and have met and worked with some very kind and amazing people. I have also had rockets, mortars and IEDs land or explode very near where I lived or the vehicles I was driving. Not once did I consider accusing the people I knew of being the same people that were set on mayhem and terrorism.
I realize that there are misguided people in the world that warp religion to their own misdeeds. That can be said about Christianity. How many hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people have been killed in the name of Christianity? If it were a group of Right Winged Christian Fundamentalists that bombed the towers, would we be so quick to malign them as a whole?
It takes a shallow person to have prejudice and it takes a malignant shallow person to try to spread that seed of hate. I am not Muslim, so don't think that I am here defending a faith I believe in. I just think it is ignorant to slander any group to make yourself feel better. Does hate really make a person feel better? I always found it to be a waste of energy... although I do hate small minded individuals... stupid one too!
Solar-Satellite, well written. I cannot refute anything of what you stated. I will however, and not as eloquently, state that there are very few individuals that are the extremists who espouse to follow dar al-Harb. From my experience, I have only met those who follow peace. I am aware that others are not of the same mind and have been for thousands of years. I am also aware that the intolerance for contradicting Mohammed is nil among every sect. I would also have to say that it is EXTREMELY unpopular to contradict Jesus and the writings of the bible within any of the many strains of Christianity. The only difference is that most of the Christians wouldn't have a clue on how to set an IED properly to detonate when their "enemies" are passing by.
September 9, 2008
1:27 a.m.
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ajcole22 writes:
solar, great post. i couldn't have said it better, and i couldn't agree more.
September 9, 2008
4:57 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
Let's see here, they'll pack and handle the swine against thier religious beliefs, but working certain holidays they refuse? Somethings not right with this picture.
September 9, 2008
5:22 a.m.
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roger44 writes:
bet if swift figured up the cost of having production stopped by these folks, they were hired because ICE raids the joints, they might figure out it would cost effective to offer a living wage and get some folks in there that show up for work and don't make such demands for religious reasons.
September 9, 2008
5:28 a.m.
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Life_In_Colorado writes:
Why hasn't anyone blamed this on Geo Bush yet?
September 9, 2008
6:31 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
WOW, what a load of intolerance i see here today! To me at least, this seems like a simple story, the company AGREED to a request, then changed their minds, making the company wrong. Seems pretty black and white to me. But suddenly, this has turned into an anti-Muslim, anti-Immigrant bashfest. Give a few bigots an inch, and they'll take a mile! Now, in all fairness, the company should have and maintain one policy, either cater to the various groups and allow the change across the board for each religion, or deny it for all religions. When I lived in western Connecticut, our schools took off Rosh Hashanah, meaning I would have to find a babysitter or take off work, yet nobody seemed to mind taking off a primarily Jewish holiday, or screaming about the demands of one religion over the majority. And were it the case here, that management were asked to make a small concession for Passover, no one would have a problem, but if they then went back on it, by God you can believe there would be a hailstorm of fury! Yes, this country was founded by Christians, but Islam was just as prevalent in the world (especially in close proximity to eastern) back then as it is now, and yet the founding fathers said nothing in the Constitution (written by Catholic and Protestant men) about this country being the sole domain of Christianity. Islam was perceived as a major threat against Christianity in the 1700's by the Catholic Church, and their were Catholics at the Constitutional Congress, yet nothing in the Constitution about Islam. They could have very easily said this will be a Christian country, but not have a national church and almost all probably would have been fine with that, but instead they made it more inclusive by saying that Church and State will NOT be intertwined. Some of you need to stop being "strict Constitutionalists" only when it benefits you! Don't use the Constitution and Christianity to hide your bigotry. Oh, and last I checked, the Koran, the Bible, and the Torah are all based on the Old Testament, and agree almost perfectly with each other in their stories, lessons, etc..., so if the Koran is a version of the Old Testament, which is handed down to us by God (and Protestants have their version of the Old Testament as well), then how is the Koran, or Islam, NOT?
September 9, 2008
6:34 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
"Scott writes:
In a production line environment it is darn tough to change the schedule without impacting the product flow of the production line. If you don't like the pace, timing of breaks or anything else, then find another job.
Scott"
You're absolutely right Scott, EXCEPT that the company heard the request and AGREED to it. In doing so, I would HOPE that before they had agreed to it, they had considered the impact on production line flow, scheduling demands, impact on other shifts, etc..., wouldn't you? IF not, then very poor management, if so, and then they renegged on that AGREEMENT, then very poor management! PERIOD! Anything else in this discussion is superflous...
September 9, 2008
6:37 a.m.
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1968camaro writes:
Leave the country!
September 9, 2008
6:47 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
DeimosJB- that might have been a valid argument if it wasn't for the fact that Swift agreed to this weeks ago, yet all of a sudden changed their mind. The workers are right in holding the company to its word.
September 9, 2008
7:08 a.m.
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Heidioftherockies writes:
Gregu writes of "intolerance" but I invite Gregu to go to any Muslim country and try to impress upon those governments and societies his/her own religious beliefs. GOOD LUCK! How naive are Americans. Oh it feels so good to preach "tolerance" but in this world today "tolerance" cannot be one-sided and is often impracticable at best, and possibly deadly. As Ayaan Hirsi Ali said of Muslims last night at an interesting Vail Symposium presentation, "one fifth of the world's population is responsible for 2/3 of the violence." We are an open so people are free to come here and practice their religion, but they must also embrace our society as a whole. If they are unhappy with that, let them go elsewhere. This PC stuff has to end.
September 9, 2008
7:12 a.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
MRWIZARD:
Might want to take a look and see what African's did to Christian/Europeans/non-Muslim's a few hundred years back, and perhaps what Islam, in several countries TODAY, are doing to African's RIGHT NOW (SLAVE TRADE).
Stop pointing to stuff HUNDREDS of years ago and LOOK AT TODAY you moron.
I.
September 9, 2008
7:26 a.m.
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T1anda writes:
Boycott all products made by Swift and company!! They need to be put out of business for many reasons!!
September 9, 2008
7:29 a.m.
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SheikYurBooty writes:
gregu710 - Telling the truth about Islam, as solar_sat and others have done, is not Islam bashing. And the Koran is no more based on the Old Testament than is MAD Magazine. Muhammed ASSERTED that his musings were in the "Abrahamic tradition" (as Muslims like to claim Islam to be) so that he could piggy-back on the wide and long-standing acceptance of those religions in his neck of the woods to try to legitimize and empower his own self-delusions, aka "Islam." He was no more in the Abrahamic tradition than Jim Jones was. Muslims believe that Muhammed, who had hundreds of prisoners beheaded, who had critics and those who mocked him assassinated, is "uswa husanna" - an excellent exmple of conduct. Knowing that makes it possible to understand the Beslan slaughter, the beheading of Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia, the Iraq beheadings, the Madrid bombing, the London bombing, the murder of Theo van Gogh, the ongoing murders of Buddhists in Thailand, the murders of Christians in the Phillipines, the constant parade of indictments of Muslims possessing bomb-making materials and guide books, the calls by bin Laden and al Zawaheri for "crusader blood," the list goes on and on.... did I forget anything???
Check this out:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
September 9, 2008
7:30 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
Heidi, I invite you as well to go to South Carolina where I used to live and try to convert people to Judaism, or Hinduism. While you won't be publicly stoned, you also won't get a anything close to a warm welcome. As far as the Middle East goes, well, I can also point to numerous Islamic countries where Orthodox Christian and Jewish communities live and have coexisted for centuries. Take me anywhere in the world and I can show you intolerance, bigotry, and extremism. Was it an Islamic extremist who took down the Federal Building in Oklahoma City years back? As I recall, Timothy McVey claimed to be a Christian Patriot. I am NOT for any form of political correctness, but I am just as opposed to the "this is a Christian Country" stance as well, because, sorry, the times are a-changin'! We either adapt to the world around us or become excluded from the world around us, cause ya know what Heidi, there are MANY more Muslims in the world than there are Christians, and we'd be better off figuring out how to coexist than to win a war with them (that didn't work out so well for the Germans against the Russians in WW2, who outnumbered them 20:1, now did it?) Further, just because we see that things are screwed up in the Middle East or Pakistan does not mean we should do something about our own back yard? That's a pretty crappy argument. The United States was founded on the premise of being a beacon of hope, prosperity, and religious tolerance for the rest of the world, or has that changed to "religious tolerance for those of my faith only"?
September 9, 2008
7:35 a.m.
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SheikYurBooty writes:
gregu - you said"As far as the Middle East goes, well, I can also point to numerous Islamic countries where Orthodox Christian and Jewish communities live and have coexisted for centuries"
It's called "dhimmitude."
Another good term to know: jizyah.
Here's a reading recommendation:
"The Myth of Islamic Tolerance"
The "peace" that non-Musloms "enjoy" in Muslim lands is similar to that "enjoyed" by anti-bellum slaves in the South: know your place, and we might not kill you.
September 9, 2008
7:37 a.m.
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RockyMtnMac writes:
Does Swift give Catholics the day off for Good Friday????
September 9, 2008
7:37 a.m.
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JSeifert writes:
Workers refuse to work fire their dumb butts and hire someone that will work. There are people who would love to have a job right now so fire their butts and hire AMERICANS SWIFT.
September 9, 2008
7:39 a.m.
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RockyMtnMac writes:
Does Swift give Jewish employees the day off for Yom Kippur?
September 9, 2008
7:49 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
SheikYurBooty, can you then explain to me the Catholic Inquisition, the Witchhunts of Europe, the slaughter of Muslims in the Crusades, and the Pogroms by the Russian Orthodox against the Jews which resulted in the deaths and expulsion of millions of Jews, all acts carried out in the name of God and the Church? As far as the conduct of Muslims against other religions during the time when Islam began, I guess you are completely overlooking the "excesses" of the Catholic Church during the same time then? Funny, but most of the mainline religious scholars who are working to patch up the rifts between the various western religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all seem to agree that the Koran IS based heavily on the Old Testament, and even point to Muhammeds writings about Jesus Christ. If ALL Muslims were as you indicate, why did Muhammed speak well of Christ as a great prophet (and the Jews don't recognize Christ as the Son of God either!!!) instead of denouncing him as an infidel or worse? Islam believes that the Koran succeeds the Old Testament, just as Christians believe that the New Testament succeeds the Old Testament. BOTH Judaism and Islam say that there is ONLY one God, and do not recognize Christ as anything other than a Prophet. In fact, because of these beliefs by Judaism, most Jews were hated and persecuted up until the Holocaust openly and in numerous countries. And to this day, there are still many who feel that way. Your argument doesn't hold water.
September 9, 2008
7:55 a.m.
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LuvAmerica writes:
LOUIE writes:
"Let's see here, they'll pack and handle the swine against thier religious beliefs, but working certain holidays they refuse? Somethings not right with this picture."
FWIW, It's a beef processing facility.
September 9, 2008
7:59 a.m.
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LuvAmerica writes:
gregu710 writes:
"Yes, this country was founded by Christians..."
FWIW, it wasn't.
"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion." -George Washington
September 9, 2008
8:05 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
SheikYurBooty, after reading the reviews, I think I'll pass on this book:
From Publishers Weekly
"this collection that sets out to debunk the theory that Muslims are tolerant of non-Muslims. Although the theme merits exploration, this book does not clarify it. The essays' authors frequently cite jihad and dhimmi as intolerant principles within Islam, but do not define them."
"Several authors also quote the Qur'an out of context and describe Muslims with large generalizations. Yasser Arafat, of the PLO, is presented as representing Muslim attitudes—a characterization most Muslims would probably disagree with"
"Comments describing alleged troublesome behavior by Muslims lack sources and citations"
"Some authors ignore basic Islamic concepts; Bat Ye'or, for example, says that the dhimmi treatment was considered "justified by the superiority of the master-race," although the Qur'an STRICTLY STATES though that ALL RACES ARE EQUAL in Islam"
Just as I do not judge the Merits of my own faith by the actions of some of it's followers, I don't judge Islam by the Merits of it's followers. The Bible was handed down to us by God, and contains the Word of God according to my Bible School lessons from growing up, yet the Bible and the Word of God have been used to justify some of the most horrible acts in history that equal the acts of Muslim extremists. So, do I judge a Religion by its misguided followers or by it's tenets and message?
September 9, 2008
8:08 a.m.
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cassidy22 writes:
I can NOT believe how intolerant, ignorant, bigoted and uneducated the people are who have responded to this post. What is SO wrong with allowing people to have religious differences? All people who practice Islam are not terrorists, religious extremists are. Just the same as I believe that the extreme Christian fundamentalists in this country are terrorists - influencing our government in ways that take my rights away.
I grew up in a very culturally diverse area - I was surrounded by children who were Islamic, Jewish, Hindu and even Buddhist. My friends were African American, European, Asian, Middle Eastern - and good old American mutts, like me. I was a minority as a Christian in my neighborhood. I loved it. I learned about other countries' cultures, got to try great new foods, and learned how to love and accept my neighbors. And by the way, the only people in my area that caused problems and hurt other people - were the white supremists. The only ones who caused violence and destruction in our neighborhood were the skinheads. Everyone else just wanted a safe place to raise their families, in a country that was FOUNDED on religious tolerance.
So where do any of you get off thinking that you are better than anyone else? Where do you get off telling other people to "go home" THIS is their home. Get off your high horse and learn how to accept people for their differences. Let go of your own anger and hatred, and maybe you'll even make a new friend, and enjoy life a little better.
September 9, 2008
8:13 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
LuvAmerica
please re-read, I said it was "founded by Christians" which is not the same as founded on Christian principles. All of the signers of the declaration were of Judeo-Christian upbringing and belief, but they did not refer to the Bible or other religious texts as the basis for any laws.
Also, with regard to my earlier response to SheikYurBooty, I often see people mis-stating that "Islam" translates to "submission" as if it holds a negative connotation. Per the Koran, Islam does mean "Submission" but the people that quote that quote it out of context, because the Koran says it means "submission to the will of God". I believe the Bible also tells us to submit to the Will of God, and we are often told when good or bad things happen that it's all according to God's Plan....
September 9, 2008
8:15 a.m.
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toocool writes:
Brifely, our question of the day is ... how did so many Somali's end up in Greeley, Colorado?
September 9, 2008
8:17 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
MarineGrunt, uh, yes, the Russian Pogroms continued right up through World War I, and then took on a new life under the Soviets. And Henry Ford openly published anti-semitic newspapers in Detroit during the 1920's as I recall as well. And of course, the McCarty era, where Jewish authors, screenwriters, etc... were a special target for "anti-American activities investigations". And, although debatable, the refusal by our and the British governments to bomb the trains going to Auschwitz to slow down the slaughter of Jews during the last months of the war. Do i need any more?
September 9, 2008
8:22 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
actually, I don't believe Big D or I or others have said that you will be welcomed in other countries as you are here. As I mentioned before, do we want our country to mirror things in Syria or Saudi Arabia, or do we want our country to mirror our beliefs in our founding principals of religious tolerance and opportunity? Which is it? I was under the crazy impression that we hold ourselves to a much higher moral standard than Libya or Syria, and thus people loved our country, because it was a beacon of hope.... I guess I'm just foolish that way.
September 9, 2008
8:33 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
I would agree Marine. My philosophy is stamp out religious extr, strike that, extremists of ANY kind, they're dangerous to not only us but their own people (as many ordinary Iraqis of both Sunni and Shiite persuasion have finally realized!), and they do nothing for society as a whole. And in general, the people who generally end up suffering the worst from the actions of extremists of any kind are those furthest removed from the reason for the action of the extremists (like the kids in the daycare center at Ground Zero in Oklahoma City).
September 9, 2008
8:33 a.m.
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SheikYurBooty writes:
gregu - like many who are slaves to moral equivalence to defend the undefendable, you reach back to cite attrocities of ancient history to excuse the everyday horros committed today and everyday in the name of Islam. Who TODAY is slaughtering innocents while screaming "Praise Jesus" or "Praise Yahweh" or "Praise Buddha" etc?
"If ALL Muslims were as you indicate, why did Muhammed speak well of Christ as a great prophet" - Muhaamed defamed Christ, who asserted and whose followers believe that he was the Son of God. Muhammed asserted that Christ was a mere prophet and that his followers altered the texts to claim that he was a God or Son of God. Muhammed started out trying to gain the support of Christians and Jews in the Arabian peninsula by flattering them so they would be inclined to defer to his self-proclaimed status as the "final prophet." When that failed, his heart hardened and it's been all downhill ever since. Thus the Koran, the sole dictate of Muhammed (allegedly acting as a conduit of the angel Jibril (Gabriel) mouthing the words of God) in three places calls Jews "apes and pigs" or the "sons of apes and pigs." This is why Middle East "peace talks" are always doomed before they start - Muslims cannot renounce the example of Muhammed and reconcile with "apes and pigs."
As for those "reviews" - the first one is just wrong - pure fiction (you are aware I assume that any book that deals factually with Isalm will automatically be given scathing on-line seminar "reviews" defaming the book - it's part of the propaganda jihad).
In the history of the world, the Koran has never been quoted in context by a non-Muslim, or so Muslims assert. So when I cite Koran 2:065: "And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!" it's "out of context."
Same with the Hadith (where most of the violent directives come from BTW, far surpassing the Koran). So when Abdullah bin 'Umar recorded:
"Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " and when that is accepted by all 5 major schools of Islam as a true, valid citation, if I cite it, it's "out of context." This is how the game is played.
Islam does not get caught up in race, but in creed. Non-Muslims are BY DEFINITION inferior, and do not enjoy the same rights as Muslims in a Sharia regime. All women, Muslim and non-Muslim are also inferior, it's just that (Animal Farm in reverse) some are more inferior than others.
September 9, 2008
8:39 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
"Muhaamed defamed Christ, who asserted and whose followers believe that he was the Son of God. Muhammed asserted that Christ was a mere prophet "
You mean, in the same way that Christians defame Muhammed by claiming he is a cult leader or fraud when he is the holiest prophet in Islam? Or is that different. How is it OK for Jews to say that Christ is a mere prophet or common man, but now Muslims? You lose me there.
And no, I am not aware that any book that deals factually with Islam gets scathing reviews. Maybe in your opinion, but not mine.
As far as Islams' treatment of women, in more progressive Islamic countries womens rights movements are gaining ground, some even (and very slowly and with a lot of pushback and danger) in Iran. But then, womens suffrage here in the states wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms...
September 9, 2008
8:45 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
I mentioned Libya because of their previous history, not their recent history, and perhaps a bad example. So, replace Libya with Saudi Arabia, Iran, or other less progressive Islamic countries.
And I am 100% behind the idea of a melting pot and cringe when I hear people speaking Spanish in public or demanding that government forms be in Spanish. (or see a job posting for central Missouri seeking an Engineer who is fluent in Spanish-WTF?) BUT, when we integrate people into society, in the past as now, religion was off-limites, we have never required that people adopt a certain religion (can you imagine if we had demanded that Irish Catholic immigrants in the 1800's convert to Protestantism or not observe their tenets?)
AND, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the workers REQUESTED AND WERE GRANTED this change in schedule by the Company, so why are we off on a tangent about Islam vs Christianity in the first place?
September 9, 2008
8:48 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
"MarineGrunt writes:
gregu.. agreed, sir!
Nice to meet someone on here able to have a conversation on an adult level."
Agreed 100%. By the way, I am NOT that old (to remember the 1920's)...
:)
September 9, 2008
9:02 a.m.
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Ann writes:
Readers should know that the US State Department has brought over 82,000 Somalis to the United States in recent years and I believe that many of the large meatpackers have had some role in encouraging this. It is all about cheap labor and not about what is good for America and American workers.
Controversies have developed recently around Somali workers at meatpacking plants (Tyson's) in Shelbyville, TN and Emporia, KS. We have written extensively on those at Refugee Resettlement Watch.
You should also know, unless someone in the comments has already mentioned it, that protests in the Greeley plant were not peaceful and that apparently Swifts and the Greeley Tribune have chosen not to reveal that to the public.
http://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordp...
September 9, 2008
9:03 a.m.
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SheikYurBooty writes:
gregu - Muhammed was no more a holy prophet than was Jim Jones, David Koresh, Tim McVeigh, or Charlie Manson. Islam's goofy beliefs (Muhammed was the "last Prophet"; he ascended to heaven from Jerusalem on a horse to meet with the other "prophets" and Allah; Allah spoke exclusively to Muhammed through an angel; etc) are no better or worse than those of any other religion. Islam stands alone with its eternal mandate to subdue (if not convert - then subdue) non-believers. Muslims consider Christians to be "polytheists" because of the Trinity. This is not an acknowledgement of diversity, but an accusation of inferiority.
You continue to engage in moral equivalence with this one:
"As far as Islams' treatment of women, in more progressive Islamic countries womens rights movements are gaining ground, some even (and very slowly and with a lot of pushback and danger) in Iran. But then, womens suffrage here in the states wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms..."
Why, just today it is reported that an Iranian court ruled that a husband needs to get his first wife's permission to before taking a second (or third, or fourth) wife. No word on what will happen to the wife who withholds that "permission" but guidance can always be found in the Koran - verse 4:34 is helpful when dealing with a non-compliant, uppity woman. (Do other "religious" texts give guidelines on how/how much/when to beat the wife???)
September 9, 2008
9:06 a.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
SheikYurBooty:
Well said, I've read the Qur'an several times and have found nothing but the promotion of death, destruction, slaughter, murder, and inslavement of all non-islamic nations/peoples. It does include beautiful, and peaceful Sura's in it, however...What most dont understand or accept is that those are NOT directed, IN ANY WAY toward non-Muslims. If you understand The Qur'an at all you must understand that what is said later absorbs or cancels or 'improves' on the Sura before it.
Meaning, what the 'prophet' said initially about "your faith, my faith, lets hold hands and love one another' and what he said after he massed an army to 'hunt down and kill the infidils!' absorbs the first one. So initially when he was in a position of weakness he did say the PC things at the time. When he was not he showed what a mass murdering, child raping, lying coward he was.
As for "peaceful" coexistance? Thats retarded. I've traveled many places and I have seen the mass fear in the eyes of many Minority groups (particularly Jewish) in muslim lands. Co-exist with a heavy price, like living with a gun at your head and a knife at your throat. Being gagged isn't a life I'd live.
Crusades? Every time I hear that I need to ask....The Jihad, the Islamic version of Crusade, has lasted 1400 plus years....Why aren't you pressing that button? Oh yeah, We're Christian, we wont kill you for it.
Nice show of courage on your part, but I wont name you out.
I.
September 9, 2008
9:17 a.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
SheikYurBooty:
Another thing that Gregu and his liberal, multicultural fellows would not want to admit....That any current ''modern'' movement inside Islamic nations only have occured with the demands of the western world. Animal rights? gay Rights? Womans Rights? The Qur'an lays that all out nicely in how to govern the human race.
If our cultural and society values were not superior to their's they would not be moving here. Period.
I.
September 9, 2008
9:22 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
Sheik I concede, only because it's pointless to continue. You talk about Muslims viewing other religions as inferior, yet continue to degrade any and all Muslim beliefs as equally inferior for exactly the same reasons that they degrade Christianity, ie based on your beliefs and your opinions of them based upon the actions of extremist views of their religion. I am not a Muslim apologist, do not follow the Muslim faith, nor do I think everything is hunky-dory in the Middle East. I DO think it is time for moderate Muslims to step up to the plate and push their religious leaders toward reconciliation with the other religions, and to renounce strongly and forcefully the actions of extremists. I don't know how much clearer I can make that. Quite frankly, if it weren't for wars fought in the Name of God, the Middle Ages and most of the history of man since the time of the Greeks would probably be pretty quiet. It's much harder to get your fellow citizens to take up arms against another country because you want to plunder their riches, or because he ticked you off, but tell them that the other country is out to destroy your God and your beliefs, and that God told you to do it, and bingo, you're set to go.
September 9, 2008
9:24 a.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
Marine,
Your right, we have every right to demand they adapt to the host (our!) country. If we moved to Saudi Arabia/Iran or any other 'modern' 'moderate' 'friendly' Middle Eastern nation and made such demands....Well? You'd be taken off the assembly line and killed in some cruel, and public fashion. Wouldn't even make the papers, its to common.
So I agree Marine. Be grateful for what liberties you have here and adjust. Don't demand submission from everyone else and expected it.
I.
September 9, 2008
9:28 a.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
Gregu,
I dont degrade or mean to insult, I point out the facts, I believe so is SheikYurBooty. I dont think your able to, in a logical ability, understand what a threat this is to your right to think, speak, and act in such a way if the majority religion in this country was not the Christian one. But thats ok, you can spit in my face. Your American, and a human being, so I'd still fight to the death for your right to spit in my face and insult my beliefs.
I promise.
I.
September 9, 2008
9:35 a.m.
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hikingartist writes:
I should get a religion so i would have an excuse to goof off.
September 9, 2008
9:36 a.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
hiking
LOL@You!
:)
I.
September 9, 2008
9:39 a.m.
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SheikYurBooty writes:
gregu - "It's much harder to get your fellow citizens to take up arms against another country because you want to plunder their riches, or because he ticked you off, but tell them that the other country is out to destroy your God and your beliefs, and that God told you to do it, and bingo, you're set to go."
This was precisely the revelation that Muhammed had when he was 40, and humanity has borne the brunt ever since. The quantity of destruction and human suffering that has resulted is immeasurable and, unfortunately, grows every minute. Unlike other self-proclaimed gods and prophets, Muhammed was a warlord and was ever in search of new and improved ways to conquer. That's what makes him (and his ardent followers) so dangerously unique.
September 9, 2008
9:52 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
NotUrFriend, thank you for that very condescending post, and for resorting to labeling me and my friends liberal. Obviously, you know nothing of me, but feel free to be misguided about what I can logically comprehend what might or might not happen. I am quite aware of the abuses of rights in Islamic countries, and quite able to comprehend all of it. Because a person chooses to believe something and does or does not agree with your OPINION, has nothing to do with their ability to comprehend, or can YOU comprehend that? To some of my friends, I am conservative, to others, liberal, because I do not adhere to one direction or the other, but judge each discussion on it's merits, and try to leave my beliefs and opinions out of it. One thing that I can tell you, is that regardless of which side of the spectrum my friends are on, none of them has ever questioned my ability to comprehend nor to follow logic. And, thank you very much my friend, I do not require nor desire your defense of me or my family like the quivering liberal muffin eater you apparently have me pictured as, I've done my time and can do it again. Nor will I spit in your face, no matter how vehemently we disagree. Good day sir.
September 9, 2008
9:58 a.m.
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miykeed writes:
junglegymco wrote "This is also a FLAGRANT violation of Title VII of The Civil Rights Act of 1964 that says employers must make a reasonable accommodation for religious beliefs"
Perhaps you need to re-read Title VII which states:
"covered employers are allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion, sex or national origin (but not based on color or race) where religion, sex, or national origin is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of that particular business or enterprise."
But it makes no mention that companies need to make changes to "accommodate" different religious beliefs.
So if the break policy had been in place for some time and the non-Muslims were forced to change their breaks when they didn't want to in order to accommodate the Muslims desires, would that be discrimination based upon religious beliefs
September 9, 2008
9:58 a.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
SheikYurBooty,
Dangerously unique and unfortunately, defended directly or indirectly with good intending citizens. The day a nation loses its courage to defend its cultural identity or national charactar is the day that nation has begun the downward spiral to extinction.
I.
September 9, 2008
10:02 a.m.
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Mtn__Gator writes:
Wish I was there selling bed sheets, looks like I could have made a fortune!
September 9, 2008
10:08 a.m.
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Sensible writes:
Welcome to the U.S.
We (some of us) like to earn $$.
Sorry.
September 9, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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solar_satellite writes:
SheikYurBooty: Thanks, I am abashed at my error. I have read the Koran, the account of Ibn Battuta of his travels around the Mohameddan world, and 'The Sword of the Prophet'; probably a lot more about the belief-system than most posters here, but to be sure, only three books.
The comments of posters about the supposed coexistence of Mohameddans with other religious groups is somewhat misleading. I think it is safe to say that these periods of coexistence reflect times when Mohameddans were militarily unable to impose their beliefs on these other groups. The communities of other faiths which have persisted in Mohameddan societies have had to accept the status of dhimmitude, i.e. subjugation, and have suffered ongoing discrimination and depredation by their Mohameddan neighbors.
gregu710: I admit that I have not read much of the Hadith, but this is where there are many specific injunctions concerning jihad and the imposition of Mohammedan beliefs on the world. The Koran is full of metaphor and poetic language, but in your several readings you could hardly have failed to miss the description of the proper division of the spoils of jihad (Chapter 8). There are indications there of the nature of the spread of Mohameddanism, but it is important to realize that the Hadith, while it consists of a large number of sayings attributed to the Prophet of varying degrees of reliability, is considered to be just as scriptural as the Koran. The core sayings contain extreme and violent injunctions from Mohammed, and are universally accepted as part of the essential scriptural basis of their beliefs by all four schools of Mohameddan jurisprudence.
I don't want to foment religious intolerance, and I disagree with W's policies part and parcel, but what I have learned about Mohameddanism is frankly alarming. In particular the whole notion of "moderate Islam" seems untenable; the behavior of believers, as indiviuals and groups, can be described as moderate or not, but I do not believe that moderation can be ascribed to their system of beliefs at all. With regard to foreign policy which purports to discourage immoderate belief, even were there not the fundamental differences between the systems of belief, which make Mohameddanism far more uniform in its doctrinal character, this would be somewhat analogous to an outside power trying to attack Southern Baptists while encouraging Episcopalians -- preposterous, and likely to produce the opposite result from that intended. With respect to the irrational and immoderate beliefs of some groups of self-described Christians, I say only: "better the devil you know ...".
September 9, 2008
10:15 a.m.
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gary writes:
Big_D writes:
I see ConAgra is one of those upstanding Republican businesses that are willing to put Muslims from Africa in front of paying US residents a living wage.
Do a little research before you post.....the plant is owned by a Brazilian corporation. Oh, maybe they are Republicans, is that right Big_D?
JBS Swift Company Description
JBS Swift & Company (formerly Swift & Company) has a hoof up on other companies in the meat industry. A subsidiary of Brazilian beef giant JBS since 2007, the company is one of the leading beef processors in the world, with operations in Australia as well as the US. Its products include fresh, further-processed, and value-added meats. Beef is its biggest seller, although it also offers pork and a small amount of lamb. In addition to the US market, JBS Swift's products are available in Australia, Mexico, China, Japan, and other Pacific Rim countries. Its brand names include G.F. Swift 1855, Swift Angus Select, Swift Premium Black Angus, and Miller Blue Ribbon Beef.
View the Comprehensive Company Description for JBS Swift
The Company Description provides a historical perspective of JBS Swift's organization from inception to current status.
Produced by Hoover's in-house editorial team, the Company Description tracks ownership transitions, company progress via mergers and acquisitions, major growth milestones, and strategic initiatives, to provide a holistic view of JBS Swift's evolution in the marketplace.
Nuff Said!
September 9, 2008
10:17 a.m.
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ghoax writes:
is Ramadan an national holiday? Oh yeah, Christmas is...if the muslims don't like our Judeo Christian roots , they are welcome to leave. Why we cater to this crowd that kills and beats their women, kills innocents to make their point, allows marraige between adult males and children is beyond me...wake up America, you're looking at the enemy.
September 9, 2008
10:24 a.m.
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NotUrFriend writes:
Solar,
Welcome to the Islamaphobia group. YOU KNOW TO MUCH! Meaning, you wont swallow B.S. about it.
:) Glad to have another informed person around, rather than the closet cases we see so often blurting out "Mohammad is love and peace."
I.
www.Jihadwatch.org
www.TheReligionOfPeace.com
September 9, 2008
11:02 a.m.
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ltcolafret writes:
I don't have any problem with them not working.....just don't pay them for the time they're not on the clock. Don't let them take sick leave because they're not sick. If they want to use vacation time, fine.
September 9, 2008
11:12 a.m.
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gregu710 writes:
Solar, thank you for sticking to a reasonable discussion, BUT, I will revert to my previous post, what does the clash between Christianity and Islam have to do with Swift agreeing to a request and then going back on it. So far, I have not see one single post in response to this, to argue this, but instead we run off on a tangent about the future of Christianity? If you would like to debate our current immigration policies, or the fact that our US State Dept. and Dept. of Labor (together with companies like Swift) brought them here to fill jobs, well then, it will be a short argument, because, flaming Commie liberal that I am, I am vehemently opposed to such practices, as well as the outsourcing of American jobs. See, now THAT actually has something to do on some level with the article. But, unfortunately, ever since the Great Amnesty of Ronald Regan, and the subsequent globalization of our economy by George H.W. Bush and Clinton, up to the current administration, our Government and Industry continue taking the easy way out to reach more profits on Wall Street. Rather than investing in educating workers, and investing in technology, as well as revamping trading negotiations to stop making it so easy for countries like China and India, our leaders and companies just take the lazy way and outsource everything to China/India, or bring in illegal labor and or impoverished workers from Africa to do the jobs that "Americans won't do" (although at the same time, I would like to know how many of you "true Americans" here would work your way out to the employment office at Swift to compete with those from Africa rather than holding out for better jobs if you were suddenly unemployed, i'm betting I have a better chance of converting Muqtada al-Sadr to Judaism!!) See, now this argument actually has something to do with the article, unlike the majority of these others....
BUT, even having said that, the article is about Swift agreeing to a request and then going back on it, and the workers reacting in about the only way they have. It wouldn't matter if it were Jews seeking time off for Passover, Catholics for Lent, or Muslims for Ramadan. Swift screwed up, and should have just said "no" to start with, or set a policy of review for all holidays and set policy across the board for all of the major religions being represented there. Someone here posted that you don't see Jews and Muslims complaining about getting time off for Christmas, well, in that same vein, I doubt you'd see most workers complaining about taking an extra 20 minute break, regardless of the reason