Not a knockout debate
Palin, Biden avoid gaffes, but dynamic remains unchanged
Rocky Mountain News
Published October 2, 2008 at 10:48 p.m.
So, how did she do?
You know who “she” is without our mentioning her name: the candidate with the most on the line in Thursday night’s vice presidential debate. And the reason for the focus on Gov. Sarah Palin is obvious. Her star had lost some of its luster since her dynamic performance several weeks ago in her speech at the Republican National Convention — especially after her tongue-tied responses to several questions from NBC’s Katie Couric in recent days.
So, how did she do?
She did OK. She avoided a major, campaign-killing blunder. She held her own in most exchanges with her Democratic counterpart, Sen. Joe Biden. But her relative inexperience in this rarified arena was evident as well, particularly in terms of initiating an attack.
Biden was more concise and specific throughout the evening in making the case against John McCain than Palin was in undermining Barack Obama. Biden had a good night — not only escaping a major gaffe himself but also, for the most part, avoiding the sort of meandering answers to which he is prone.
The senator from Delaware rarely lost an opportunity to return to a topic in order to try to get in the last word. And often he succeeded.
Incredibly, for example, Palin allowed Biden to get away with mischaracterizing Obama’s offer to meet personally with America’s enemies without preconditions. By the time Biden had finished mangling the issue, it sounded as if McCain opposed diplomacy altogether while Obama had merely been advocating routine, high-level contacts.
She also let Biden largely escape with his (and Obama’s) tedious riff that the current implosion on Wall Street is largely a result of Republican deregulation — when Democrats were by and large the strongest defenders of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac’s trip into the wild side of lending.
Palin repeated a tedious riff of her own: that she and McCain were going to “stop the greed and corruption on Wall Street.” Stop the greed? What, by transforming human nature?
Both candidates were effective in talking about the fears of the middle class. The same goes for their positions on Iraq, although Biden pretended that he hadn’t expected his vote on the Senate resolution authorizing war to result in an invasion as soon as it did. Oh, please.
And Palin called him out on it.
As the debate wound down, it was clear that neither candidate would land a knockout punch — or coin one of those lines that linger in political memory. Palin had disproved the worst fears about her competence. Biden had revealed himself as a disciplined combatant rather than a loose cannon. But their debate had not changed the dynamic of the campaign.
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October 2, 2008
11:43 p.m.
Suggest removal
Ari writes:
I am pleased that the Rocky recognizes the true cause of the financial crisis: foolish federal controls that encouraged and forced risky lending. For more details about this, please see Yaron Brook's article for Forbes:
http://tinyurl.com/59hs8e
Unfortunately, the Rocky, in advocating the bailout, doesn't carry its insight far enough. If federal controls got us into this mess, why should we count on them to get us out? What we need is for government to do its job of protecting rights of property and contract, and otherwise leaving us alone. The bailout is the opposite of that approach.
The Rocky seems to be concerned that, absent some magnificent expenditure of tax dollars (via deficits), the market will not correct quickly enough. I don't know how long it will take the market to correct. But it's clear that more federal intervention will only delay that correction and cause more distortion.
The Rocky might be comforted to realize that the Great Depression was primarily worsened and extended by the misguided policies of Hoover and FDR. We need not repeat those mistakes.
Johan Goldberg just came out with an article summarizing Hoover's idiotic controls:
http://tinyurl.com/5y5f3s
For more, see the books of Andrew Bernstein and Thomas DiLorenzo on the history of capitalism. I also just received a copy of FDR's Folly, which I expect to be good.
- Ari Armstrong, http://www.freecolorado.com/
October 3, 2008
12:28 a.m.
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paperboy writes:
The misguided policies of FDR worsened and extended the Depression?
Are you aware that you are out of your mind, Ari?
What next, Hitler did everything he could to save the Jews?
What exactly are the limits, if any, of the rationalizations and denials of objective reality and the recastings of history you neocon free-market-dolts will employ to protect the status quo, which is your own wealth and political clout, in the name of some capitalistic moral ideal that doesn't now, and never has existed?
If you want to compare a modern president's destructive policies to Hoover, try Ronald Reagan and George Bush I and II.
The bailout may or may not be the correct action, and it may or may not work. I'm not qualified to say. But I am qualified to say that you are so mired in a laissez faire ideology that has now been discredited, again, and conservative economic BS masquerading as facts, that your sanity is clearly an issue.
Well, at least you're not an idiot, just an addled zealot.
October 3, 2008
6:15 a.m.
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paulhsiehmd writes:
There are quite a few economists who are correctly placing the blame for the current crisis on government interference in the free market, rather than the free market. After all, it is simply not in a lender's interest to loan money to people who can't pay it back.
The government created perverse incentives for banks to make bad loans with the tacit understanding that it would use taxpayer money to "fix" the problem if creditors defaulted (through the Community Reinvestment Act and other measures). This current mess is exactly the result would one expect.
To blame the free market for the problems caused by government-interference in the market is like blaming the car for your auto accident, rather than blaming the fact that you were talking on your cell phone while fiddling with your on-board GPS system while driving.
Here are a few of the articles I mentioned:
"Credit Crisis Not a Free-Market Failure"
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/arti...
"Reject bailout rush to socialism"
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...
"The Long Road to Slack Lending Standards"
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/artic...
I do disagree with some people out there who are trying to cast this in partisan terms as a problem created "by the Democrats" or "by the Republicans". It was created by the *government*, and there's plenty of blame to spread to both political parties.
October 3, 2008
6:36 a.m.
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Oh_Wise_One writes:
paperboy, you need to step away from the misinformation you were fed in your liberal college. The research now shows that FDR did indeed extend the Depression with his interference in the market. I'm sure your open-mined self will go read a book by Amity Shales (sp?) about that period in America.
October 3, 2008
8:13 a.m.
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INC writes:
palin wants to change the constitution to "expand the powers of the VP"? Uphold and defend the constitution not change it is the oath...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFrZD0...
Oh_Wise_One,
Yes it is true FDR did indeed do things that lengthened the Great Depression. However take it in context, everything done was a first attempt at solving the crisis. nothing had been proven to despel or to lengthen the depression as yet. (1930-1940) by mid 1941 the Depression was largely over. people were just starting to get back to work. then pearl harbor was attacked in Dec.
All the laws regarding oversight and regulation on financial markets did indeed stave off Depression, for the last 65 years. all written 1935-40. passed with agreement of Republicans at the time.
Modern republicans wiped those laws off of the books during this last 12 year reign of power.
learn to eat dirt. as a "republican economic Depression" is upon us.
October 3, 2008
8:28 a.m.
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Reyn writes:
Come on folks. The fact that the writer of the article happens to take some conservative positions does not make those positions right.
Yes, many academic economists are supply siders -- or even "Objectivists" -- and as a result, many of them think that any intervention in the market is tantamount to murder, educated folk on the extreme economic Right would after all -- however, history proves that regulated markets function FAR better than deregulated ones FOR THE MAJORITY. Am I going to argue for a moment that they work better for small numbers of the very wealthy? No, I'd be lying, and I don't do that. For most Americans however, regulation is the way to go -- and even some of the very wealthy -- particularly those like Warren Buffet - who repeatedly puts his money where his mouth is -- agree that it is obvious that the greatest good for the greatest number is a desirable outcome.
I know that everyone holds the fantasy that perhaps they can win the "economic race" and become truly very wealthy -- its the same mentality that keeps the coffers of many state lotteries and many casinos full; but it doesn't change the reality for most people - and for anyone who is not already at least a multi-millionaire to favor less regulation, particularly in light of the Great Depression and other Depressions prior to it -- is absolutely insane.
Regards,
Reynolds Jones
October 3, 2008
9 a.m.
Suggest removal
andrew1976 writes:
Sure, Palin managed to speak in (mostly) complete sentences last night, but the only ability she demonstrated was to read from prepared notecards. If anything, her reluctance to answer questions directly, or engage with Joe Biden, only reinforced the idea that she can't think on her feet, and lacks a fundamental understanding of the issues.
A second, point . . . In college, if you bomb your first few exams, and then get a C on the final, you still won't pass your class. Even if you believe that Palin's performance was acceptable last night, how does that nullify her horrifying interviews of the past few weeks?
October 3, 2008
9:01 a.m.
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youngman writes:
Hey INC...what did the Democrats do during this time??? Since the Democrats have takin control of congress two years ago the economy has tanked. Are you liable? Or is it all Bush's fault?....
October 3, 2008
9:05 a.m.
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nrunner writes:
So the bankers went followed the government incentives that led them to make bad loans. Were they forced to do it or were they looking to make huge profits and huge payouts for themselves. Remember that after 9-11 the economy was in tatters and the only thing that kept it from tanking was the housing industry and all of the loans. Why is it that the people who took out loans were at fault for not knowing what they could pay and not the lenders for supposedly being smarter, not doing the right thing for their stockholders, the economy, our country. Some countries around the world are doing fine in the banking industry and are in fact buying up some of our financial institutions and these countries have highly regulated financial oversight. How much US debt does Japan own right now?
October 3, 2008
9:30 a.m.
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DolphT writes:
You are right that there was no K.O. Folks expected Palin to drool and fall off the stage, as her Couric interview suggested was possible and she did not. But, to continue the boxing analogy, Biden had a HUGE lead on points. He answered the questions asked and answered them concisely, intelligently and substantively. Palin did a better job of reciting her programed slogans than in recent interviews, but did not actually answer many of the questions asked and showed nothing other than ability to remember to say "maverick," "change," and "reform" and other buzz words over and over. Being likeable (and Palin is) doesn't translate to being capable of being President (and she most definitely is not).
Clear win for Biden because it was clear which of these two would make the better President.
October 3, 2008
9:34 a.m.
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FU writes:
It's pronounced NucLEEEar!!!! She's such a moron, it's embarrasing to our nation that she's even in the debate.
October 3, 2008
9:49 a.m.
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highlandsranchmom writes:
Last night I heard Biden say that the problems with the economy had to do with deregulation. Palin said that it was because of corporate greed. How do you combat corporate greed without regulation?
October 3, 2008
9:53 a.m.
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Zim writes:
I think she did okay up until the point she was presented with the question whether or not the V.P. was part of the Executive branch. She waffled so much I had to look for syrup. Biden's response was firm, and exactly what many concerned Americans who have seen so many White House abuses of power wanted to hear. That moment, I think, tipped the debate strongly in Biden's direction.
October 3, 2008
10:29 a.m.
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paperboy writes:
Oh_Wise_One writes:
"paperboy, you need to step away from the misinformation you were fed in your liberal college. The research now shows that FDR did indeed extend the Depression with his interference in the market. I'm sure your open-mined self will go read a book by Amity Shales (sp?) about that period in America"
Don't believe it. If it's true, I don't care. The current larceny as well as the S&L fleecing are case studies for strict banking regulation, period.
Don't care how many economists write books criticizing FDR. They have no currency. They are discredited among those who are paying attention. Save it.
October 3, 2008
10:40 a.m.
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paperboy writes:
Free-market conservative zealots have been carping about FDR since the New Deal legislation was still in Congress and fighting steadily to overturn it. With Reagan you mostly succeeded. This, and the S&L fiasco is what we get.
You guys don't seem to get that your fundamental approach has been effectively and empiricallydiscredited. Economists write books. So what.
October 3, 2008
10:48 a.m.
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paperboy writes:
Oh yeah, also, I have no opinion on the efficacy of the pending bailout. Will it work? Is it the right thing to do? I don't know.
Regulation. That, I know.
October 3, 2008
12:12 p.m.
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Mainer1776 writes:
Biden spoke authoritatively but most of it wasn't true. Typical Biden. Make stuff up. His media supporters simply take it as truth. How sad is that?
October 3, 2008
12:14 p.m.
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Mainer1776 writes:
FU. It was President Carter who first brought "nucular" to present usage. I think it's abominable. But usage drives language. Just aks anyone! Unfortunately, nucular is now an accepted pronounciation. Look it up in most dictionaries.
October 3, 2008
12:43 p.m.
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FU writes:
Mainer1776 - are you putting her in the same boat with other people who mispronounce nuclear, Carter, Bush, Homer Simpson (done on the Simpsons to mock people...) or are you saying we should all pronounce it the wrong way? Should we say February "Feb-YOU-ary".
Let's just lower the bar for everyone in our country. Other countries are already laughing at us enough.
October 3, 2008
1:05 p.m.
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vet64 writes:
Every one appears to have missed the main point of the debate, both candidates lied. The true mark of a professional politician is to be able to lie with a straight face and make the people believe you. What we watched last night was a consummate performance by two people trained by their handlers to answer questions in such a way that the answer is obscured. I wouldn't trust any politician to give me change for a dollar and if they happened to be able to shake my hand, I'd count my fingers afterward.
October 3, 2008
1:08 p.m.
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winchestereast writes:
nuclear, nuclear, nuclear - that's about how i felt watching sarah wink, emote, pander to joe-six-pack - if she cute's herself into the white house, lord help us all - biden may be a wind-bag at times, but at least the wind is powered by a well-functioning brain - this hockey mom with the 230,000 income, tossing around oil-money in alaska, is a joke - the queen of ear-marks is no maverick - trickle down economics is patently not working for most - i will take the tax hit on my top 2%bracket income to see this country functioning as it should - let's get rid of the hidden taxes (tax increment financing that builds stadiums, walmarts, cabelas) which are funneled straight into the pockets of the wealthy, etc and get back to basics - the pseudo-free market really is a free-for-all market with special regulations to benefit the connected and most non-economists don't know about them -
October 3, 2008
1:09 p.m.
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dragonfly writes:
FU,
Do you enjoy making fun of people that don't talk like you? Does it make you feel superior? Biden speaks English quite well, but doesn't know the US Constitution, and he's a lawyer. So, does that make him a moron, too?
October 3, 2008
1:44 p.m.
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kris writes:
very low expectations were set for Palin and she delivered that.... nothing more.
October 3, 2008
2:36 p.m.
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radagan writes:
Palin did an excellent job and even many of her Democratic critics acknowledged that last night.
andrew1976 - if Palin gets a C then Biden must have a lifelong D average going. Half the things he said last night regarding McCain were absolutely false. the Tax vote McCain did NOT vote for that he said he did. Biden has been against any offshore drilling, Obama has raised taxes numerous times. And McCain tried to get more regulation on Fannie/Freddie 2 years ago.
October 3, 2008
2:51 p.m.
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Cel writes:
I liked watching her, she's kinda eye candy, similar to Paris Hilton pretty, but not much substance.
October 3, 2008
2:52 p.m.
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Faux_Noise writes:
The "democrats caused the subprime mess by forcing banks to give loans to poor people who couldn't aford them" meme is nothing more than a lie.
Where did I get this radical notion? That bastion of Marxism, Business Week.
Community Reinvestment Act had nothing to do with subprime crisis
http://www.businessweek.com/investing...
Ned Gramlich, a former Fed governor...praised CRA, saying last year, “banks have made many low- and moderate-income mortgages to fulfill their CRA obligations, they have found default rates pleasantly low, and they generally charge low mortgages rates. Thirty years later, CRA has become very good business.”
October 3, 2008
3:09 p.m.
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Faux_Noise writes:
It's Still Not CRA
Ellen Seidman
http://www.newamerica.net/blog/asset-...
October 3, 2008
3:57 p.m.
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artcarmen writes:
I know it is not politically correct to interject age, but this is about HEALTH, especially with Sarah Palin, 45th President and Commander-In-Chief of the United States, in waiting, around the corner, just one heart attack, stroke, melanoma, massive coronary, senility or dementia away, ready to go on day one.
McCain is 72 and a medical mess. He will be 80 if he serves 2 terms, and incumbents never step down.
The records document the health of Sen. McCain at the Mayo Clinic show:
Cancer (melanomas on his left face, his left arm and his nose); dizziness that was diagnosed as vertigo; blood in the urine, caused by an enlarge prostate and bladder/kidney stones; high cholesterol; chronic pain in his shoulder, hand and knee joints diagnosed as degenerative arthritis; evidence of polyps and diverticulosis in the colon, and some other minor medical ailments along the way.
The cancer diagnosis has surfaced 4 times, 4 operations and will likely reoccur.. Has pain in his shoulders and knee, and takes sedatives that may cause disorientation. Has high-frequency hearing loss in both ears, sporadic memory loss, edema( swelling) and blood in the urine. Thyroid palpable node discovered and being watched. Smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a DAY for 25 years before stopping in 1980. Has psychological, temper and mood swings due to military and prolonged imprisonment and isolation under stressful conditions that have left lasting psychological impact and undersurface rage, revenge phantasies and acting out.
Health is only one of the reasons. There are many issue-oriented reasons not to vote for him, but his medical record make it too tenuous to risk a President Sarah anytime soon. Say it ain’t so, Sarah.
October 3, 2008
4:47 p.m.
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bigbadthor writes:
For those who blame the CRA, that legislation was passed by a republican controlled congress and signed by Bill Clinton, so bottom line both parties are to blame and as long as we have Wall Street corporations funding canidates, then the people in Washington are going to continue to sell us down the river (Republican or Democrat) they are the same party, the only diffrence is who they steal money for.
As for the debate, Palin did nothing to impress me, she showed what she can do, which is to stick to talking points and spew out rehearsed lines. She is basically just a puppet with no real intelligence, just someone who the republicans are hoping will steal votes from idiotic women voters who will vote for a women rather than actually look at the canidates.
October 3, 2008
5:11 p.m.
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wendy027 writes:
Biden was joke. Telling a bald-faced lie that Obama didn't say he would meet with the Iranian leader, Achmenijad, without preconditions. Plus there is that absolute nonsense about spending more in a month in Iraq than we’ve spent in Afghanistan and the lie about McCain voting with Obama on raising taxes. The whopper was his claim that his vote in favor of the Iraq war wasn’t a vote in favor of the war. Hello Joe it was a war resolution. One wonders how a dunce like Joe is a VP candidate. So the question remains: How do you win on substance when you get the facts wrong?
Most memorable moment, "There you go again Joe looking backwards ..." Palin has wonderful ability to connect with Americans. Biden was nasty and sullen.
Of course this biased liberal democrat author would never point this out. That's why he has no credibility. In fact the liberal media has zero credibility except with liberals. That is why 60% of the people believe the media is cheering for Obama.
October 3, 2008
7:46 p.m.
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Sweetpickle writes:
She was SASSY.
That's all she has to do.
October 3, 2008
9:03 p.m.
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Castle writes:
Did you liberal whiney butt's watch the debate on TV or just in your mind? You obviously only saw what you wanted to and what the drive by media told you that you saw.
October 3, 2008
9:46 p.m.
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Faux_Noise writes:
I watched the whole thing on CNN with the real time focus group meters running.
Whenever Caribou Barbie tried to play cute and folksy, her approval ratings went down. People aren't buying her schtick. When she mentioned tax cuts, ther was no response. We're aware that borrow and spend is no longer tenable.
Palin's biggest failing is not any lack of experience or intelligence (though these are significant), it's her complete inability to do the job she was hired to do. She's supposed to be the attack dog giving red meat to the conservative base. She can't even do that competently.
After Joe Biden said he'd changed his mind on judicial temperament, she should have said: "That's exactly the kind of Washington double-talk people on Main Street want less of. Judges should interpret the laws, and not legislate from the bench." Instead we get "I've only been at this for five weeks."
When Katie Couric asked her what news sources she reads, her answer should have been along the lines of: "We get all the major news magazines up in Alaska that you get in the lower 48, but I don't need the approval of the media elites to know what the people of America want from their leaders." Instead we get: "All of them."
George Bush in drag.
October 3, 2008
11:06 p.m.
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Wagner writes:
Gee, RMN, when was it that NBC hired Katie Couric? I must have missed that.
October 4, 2008
12:21 p.m.
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davis_x_machina writes:
Caribou Barbie performed the three major functions expected of her by her handlers: 1. try out the latest attack lines, and 2. create and exploit largely artificial cultural divides within our society, and lastly irritate anyone perceived as liberal by the wingnuts.
I'll credit the wingnuts with being loyal to a fault. They will stick by 5th choice McCain come hell or high water and because their candidate picked Caribou Barbie they'll go to the mattresses for her as well regardless.I'd just appreciate some sort of indication that she has any notion about actually governing a country as opposed to a state with fewer people than the Denver metro area.
October 4, 2008
6:09 p.m.
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carlindenver writes:
RMN assertion: "Incredibly, for example, Palin allowed Biden to get away with mischaracterizing Obama’s offer to meet personally with America’s enemies without preconditions." is false, misleading and inaccurate.Biden tried to defend his remark and thus.."By the time Biden had finished mangling the issue, it sounded as if McCain opposed diplomacy altogether while Obama had merely been advocating routine, high-level contacts." Biden is still an effective liar. Typical Washington liberal Democrat. Please just "Google": VP Debate Lies. Yes, just try it. And Right-on about Katie Couric-NBC. But it doesn't matter a whole lot. The Dominate MSM and now AP are circling their wagons around their Messiah Obama that it would be sinful to not attack McCain and Palin. Journalism is nearing the tipping point of being "extremely" ridiculous.
October 5, 2008
9:54 p.m.
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akrmnbc writes:
Oh_Wise_One and Ari: Forget about FDR. The mess we are in *now* is the direct and predictable result of Republican-driven failure to regulate the financial industry. Let's be honest. John McCain, among many Ronald Reagan followers, has always argued for less regulation in all domains of private industry. The current financial meltdown is a catastrophic example of how wrong that approach is. We need to realize that industry and the world run better when constrained by sensible regulation. We are all affected by this meltdown, from mortgages to small business loans and venture capital to federal spending on needed projects. Solving this crisis starts with NOT choosing John McCain, whose entire career until the immediate past is part of the problem.
October 5, 2008
10:25 p.m.
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akrmnbc writes:
Maybe I'm naive, but there's supposed to be something called "respect for the office". Where is Sarah Palin's respect for the office of the Vice Presidency when she goes to her only debate but doesn't actually answer any of the questions and instead just spouts out random memorized junk and then gives a wink and a shout out to some folks from home. Does she think she's on Oprah? Where's her respect for us; doesn't she think we need to hear answers to the questions, so that we can make a decision? Where is McCain's respect for the office, when he picks this frighteningly unqualified person to be a heartbeat away. Maybe some people think that politicians haven't earned our respect. Palin and McCain are leading the way down that road.