Three veterans share views on Marine Hering going AWOL
By James B. Meadow, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published November 22, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.
Guerrero
Crow
Blood, honor, fear, loyalty, immorality, the horrific prospect of returning to Armageddon - these are the themes unfurling around the curious case of Lance Hering.
At least they are to three military veterans, men who are either convinced or conflicted - or both - about how to view the actions of the young U.S. Marine who faked his own disappearance in Boulder more than two years ago and went AWOL before being arrested in Washington state last week.
While Hering, 23, who saw action in Iraq and was supposed to show up for a second tour, waits to see whether civilian or military jurisprudence has first crack at him, his decision to avoid his next deployment is something that has catalyzed opinions and emotions within three former warriors who once wore their country's uniform.
Artie Guerrero
A Vietnam vet who served with the 75th Rangers, Guerrero paid the "half-ultimate price" after coming home with terrible wounds suffered in an ambush on April 23, 1967, a little more than a year after he was drafted into the Army. The three bullets and shrapnel that tore through his body and sent him home from the bloody jungles of Southeast Asia soon led to multiple sclerosis, which has confined the 64-year-old Denver native to a wheelchair since 1977.
From that wheelchair, Guerrero says, "From my personal opinion, AWOL is never justified. You cannot desert. You cannot run. I can't condone what he (Hering) did. It was against the rules and regulations, against the code. When you raise your hand and say, 'I will do everything in my power to protect the Constitution of the U.S.,' you've got to do it."
But it doesn't take long for Guerrero to segue from disapproval to sympathy.
"While I don't condone it, by the same token, I wonder about who might have sent a vulnerable kid back to combat. You can't keep sending vets back to war more than once."
Guerrero lets out a small sigh and says,"You can't talk about war unless you've been there. It's a different kind of fear. A life- or-death fear."
Enough fear to make someone think about bailing out?
"Absolutely, it goes through everyone's mind. Hey, I'm a combat veteran - I was awarded the Silver Star, a Bronze Star; I have a whole list of awards. But I don't care who you are, when you get in a firefight, and the enemy is shooting bullets at you, well, it goes through everyone's mind. Y'know, how do I get out of this mess? Shoot myself in the leg? Go AWOL?' "
Although Guerrero is "pretty sure I went to Vietnam totally sane, when you're in combat, you're not sane. Humans in a sane situation do not kill other people. But in war, you will do everything possible to come out alive."
Jason Crow
He served two tours in Afghanistan and one in Iraq as a captain in the U.S. Army. He endured numerous firefights, and afterward, when the adrenaline had ebbed, he would realize how frightening it had been. He felt anger when one of his men didn't come back from leave, but he put it aside because he had to worry about the men who had returned to do their duty.
"I think everybody who raises their right hand and takes an oath, they have an obligation, not only to their country, but to the people you serve with," says 29-year-old Jason Crow. And while Hering's decision was "obviously very personal," the point is, "I think Lance Hering has not fulfilled his obligation."
And yet, "I'm conflicted. I also think there's another side to this story, and that's the issue of what kind of effect this war, these wars, are having on our servicemen and women."
It's the issue of "the lack of treatment both within the active duty and veterans system when they leave active duty." It's about post traumatic stress disorder and the fact that, "It's not a matter of whether someone will be affected by PTSD, it's a matter of when."
Having been in the hell of combat, Crow knows people react very differently to the stresses of war. "I've seen that firsthand. Some handle it better than others. (Hering) may have been in a situation where he felt compelled to do what he did - go AWOL, desert, I'm not going to speculate on which it was - because he was desperate."
Jeff Englehart
He doesn't know Lance Hering, doesn't presume to know his particular circumstances. But former Army Specialist Jeff Englehart, 28, does know what it's like to take up arms for his country. He knows what it's like because "I was a machine gunner on a Humvee" in Baqouba, one of Iraq's deadliest sectors, where the Sunni insurgency was always boiling.
Englehart also knows the bitter aftertaste of participating in an "immoral occupation."
Which is why the staunch member of Iraq Veterans Against The War says, "I support any soldier under any circumstances who chooses to refuse participation in an illegal occupation."
He believes this so strongly he feels Hering going AWOL is "justified." It is "any soldier's right to do that if they find something unconscionable."
Although, by the end of his tour in Iraq, he admits to being "frustrated and discouraged," Englehart concedes, "I did feel that fulfilling my obligation to my contract was the personally responsible thing."
But in the next sentence, he insists, "If I was still in the army now and getting orders to Iraq, I would not go."
Neither would most of the veterans he's spoken to, veterans who have told him, "The moral issues surrounding this illegal occupation are just too great."
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November 22, 2008
6:24 a.m.
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Curtis writes:
It's nice to see some more moderate viewpoints. From the comments on previous articles the Marines seemed more like a dysfunctional family all too ready to eat their own.
November 22, 2008
6:43 a.m.
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TMcna82298 writes:
I am a former Marine, and I really don't care. I don't condone deserting, or going AWOL. I am happy to know that the Marines want to give him a fair trial.
He,(Lance Hering), should have thought about talking to someone. He might have talked to a family member or his pastor.
November 22, 2008
7:46 a.m.
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Michael writes:
Only those that have experienced combat, known that fear, seen the death and destruction, and balanced all that with the oath they took and the responsibility they have to our country and their brothers in arms are allowed to really comment on a situation like this. The rest of us who have not are just idiots and have no valid right to. He will be judged by those that have the right to judge him and have been there.
November 22, 2008
8:05 a.m.
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VietNamVet writes:
I cannot think of a valid reason to go AWOL. When one joins the service, he swears that he will serve his country. There is no room in the service for a lance corporal to make the moral decisions about any given conflict. He should have thought about that before he joined. Perhaps he (and the Corps) would have been better served if he had just served his jail time for the burglary he committed and been done with it.
November 22, 2008
8:31 a.m.
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freeman2night writes:
I served two tours in Iraq. I was there in 2004, and again in 2007/2008. The difference was night and day. The surge gave the Iraqi government a chance to catch their breath, retrain, retool, and then take the fight back out to al Qaeda and the Iranian backed Jaysh al Mahdi (JAM).
AWOL is under extreme conditions justified, such as when/if ordered to fire upon American civilians in the continental United States, otherwise no. But to leave because you don’t like the Iraqi war…not justified.
The war in Iraq is moral and here’s why:
- Saddam Hussein, a tyrant, was cashiered.
- Government sanctioned torture, rape, and immorality ended in Iraq.
- A government that was seeking nuclear weapons ended.
- A government that invaded three of its neighbors ended.
- A state sponsor of terrorism ended.
- Al Qaeda fighters traveled to Iraq where they were killed on a foreign soil before they ever had a chance to touch ours.
Also, when you take the oath of enlistment you swear to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Part of protecting the Constitution is obeying the laws of the executive branch which makes the President (right, wrong, or indifferent) the Commander-in-Chief…the boss of the military…period.
When the President says go…you go. The Congress is supposed to declare war, they failed in issuing a formal declaration, but they still OK’d it with funding. So Liberal, Conservative, each supports the war as their actions, not rhetoric keeps troops there.
On a final note, Jeff, what vets are you talking to? I only know one person that thought going to Iraq was wrong. You are a liar and a fraud. You don’t speak for the rest of us.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content...
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnew...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/0...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/0...
http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/al...
November 22, 2008
8:33 a.m.
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Curtis writes:
Michael - I think everyone in this country has a 1st amendment right to comment on any issue.
VietNamVet - I think one of the most important things we can do as a human being is to make moral decisions about evey action we make.
November 22, 2008
8:37 a.m.
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HotFangs writes:
If Hering was a young man trying to leave a white supremacist gang because its racist violence had finally sickened him, would we not applaud this decision?
November 22, 2008
9:06 a.m.
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hikingartist writes:
Freeman, you have no right to judge Jeff or anyone else and the war (occupation) in Iraq was not justified. We can't cover all the points in this short space, but at the end of the day, it is the US that is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths and injuries in Iraq with its needless invasion. Do you think the average Iraqi cares wherther their child is killed by Saddams henchmen or errant US bullets? Is it better that Iraqis died in their markets and streets by the benevolent US hand rather than a psychopathic Saddam? Their are 2 sides to everything, war is no different, and it's moralistic jerks like you that give fighting for freedom a bad name. Believe it or not, there is more than one way to win a war.
November 22, 2008
9:10 a.m.
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mt writes:
What if he was a gopher trying to outwit a fox, would we not applaud him then also. What if you were to post something that relates to this article would we possibly not make fun of you then? Point is he was a Marine plain and simple. He did not join a supremacits gang he joined the proud Marine Core. Those who have not served and only complained and protested the military have no right to comment on the criminal proceedings conducted by the military on their own personnel. We service men have sacrificed to give you the right to live a whole an free life then you turn around and crap on us for the way we did it. Be proud of yourself.
November 22, 2008
9:11 a.m.
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Michael writes:
Curtis - I knew without doubt there would be someone like you using your 1st Amendment right to say you can comment on this. You are correct, the 1st Amendment gives you the right to do so. But that "right" to bloviate is balanced against your knowledge of the situation. You also have the "right" to comment on how to design a Boeing jetliner or how to build a nuclear submarine - but if you lack the expertise and knowledge to do so, your words are just clatter and noise.
November 22, 2008
9:21 a.m.
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Michael writes:
Do you think the average Iraqi cares wherther their child is killed by Saddams henchmen or errant US bullets? - YES. I think just like anyone that the Iraqis would rather die fighting for freedom than being slaughtered like sheep. Ask the French, the Fillipinos, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Chinese, the S Koreans, or the many other countries and people that the US has liberated over the decades if there was a difference between being killed by the Nazis, the Japanese, the N Koreans, etc. or dying with or even by American forces in their fight for freedom. I know that answer already.
Is it better that Iraqis died in their markets and streets by the benevolent US hand rather than a psychopathic Saddam? Agan...YES. There is a huge difference in dying in the fight to claim your country back from extremists, tyrants, terrorists, and more than simply being killed for entertainment or by being persecuted.
Those that cannot see this difference cannot be debated on this topic due to their blind hatred for this war and our President for invading Iraq.
November 22, 2008
9:27 a.m.
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HotFangs writes:
The First Amendment does not "give" anyone rights.
The right to speak freely is an inherent human right.
The First Amendment clearly states that the government may not make a law prohibiting this right. The Amendment is about what the Congress may NOT do, not what the people are "allowed" to do.
Oftentimes on this forum, you will see so-called soldiers breaking their arms patting themselves on the back for supposedly giving us citizens our right to speak. No! Our rights are inherent. And anyway, didn't our tax dollars pay for your uniforms, weapons, and three hots and a cot? If the right to speak freely was not already inherent, then I would say we taxpayers PAID for the right you soldiers supposedly "give" us.
MT: How do you figure the Marine "Core" (as you spell it) is not a white supremacist gang waging race war against the brown and black peoples of the world?
November 22, 2008
9:39 a.m.
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freeman2night writes:
Hikingartist brings up a couple of great points. The first being that I don’t have the right to judge Jeff or anybody else. I disagree, in regards to the Iraqi campaign I was there in OIF II, and OIF V so I have a basis on what I had observed. Jeff is a fraud and a liar as he does not speak for about 93% of us that have served there and do support the Iraqi campaign. Jeff is a baby and is clueless on international law, laws of war and common sense in general.
The second is that the US is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths in Iraq. Yes we are, and I’m glad that we were able to dispatch tens of thousands of insurgents and AQI. I am proud that I had a part in that.
Third calling the Iraq war a needless invasion. That’s not what the Iraqi people say. They’re pretty happy that we were there because we gave them a chance to be liberated from Saddam, and the Iranian backed insurgents. Read this following article, it’s a quick blurb on what Iraqi’s deal with on a day to day basis, and in the end, they beg the US for help because we (the American soldiers) are the only ones that have the guts and ability to stand up to these thugs. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news...
Forth saying that Iraqi kids are killed by American bullets. OK, it has happened, it’s a fact of war, sometimes an innocent person dies. As a soldier on the ground in Iraq I can tell you this, EVERY effort was/is made to protect civilians from harm. Most of the civilian that are killed are done so at the hands of insurgents and AQI. If you remotely ever read a newspaper you would know that. Saying that Americans target civilians is a lie, carless rhetoric, and a plain stupid accusation.
Finally I am a moralistic jerk. I believe that we should face evil in the world and dom something about it. I have aided in the death and capture of several insurgents and AQI. I believe that the world is a better place by killing those that want to kill us and innocent people. Yes, I am moralistic, and I am a jerk to the enemies of the United States; I kill them.
I suggest that you take a trip to Iraq, maybe join up yourself in actually see the world rather than run your mouth about issues you clearly have no concept or understanding about. There is only one way to win a war, and that is to fight it, and to win it,
November 22, 2008
9:46 a.m.
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mt writes:
Sorry about the miss spell of corps. I was army, so my bad.
Hot Fang- I presume you are guessing you are talking to a white man right now. Are you so racist that you think whites are the only ones allowed to fight and die for their country? Would my brothers and sisters be allowed to join a white supremacist gang? My taxes also paid for my salary, the road you drive on etc. We soldiers also PAID taxes and some gave their lives for twits like you to be able to spit in our face and say what you want (although a coward like you would never say it to our face). You would rather let your taxes pay someone else to fight for you. We soldiers protect the country against would be attackers that want to take away your rights and abilities to speak freely. And yes it was the soldiers that allowed you to find the time to curse at what we do. Stand there and preach all you want about what you know but realize that if it wasn't for the military you would be preaching in a different language.
November 22, 2008
10 a.m.
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HotFangs writes:
MT:
You are of course assuming I have not served in the military.
Please, Hon. You're gonna break your brittle little authoritarian arm patting yourself on the back. And you know the VA won't be much help when you do, so go easy on the self-congratulations. You'll get my respect when you've earned it.
Here's a question for you to chew on (instead of the funiture like a rabid puppy): If you soldiers are so great at defending this country, why are its women raped once every six minutes? And why was 911 allowed to happen?
Could you ever really be a composed, clear-headed fighter worthy of the name if you are so easily enraged by a few dissenting comments on a newspaper forum?
November 22, 2008
10:02 a.m.
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HotFangs writes:
MT: You are right about one thing. Yes, I would be speaking in a different language if it were not for the US military.
I would be speaking Lakotah. Or Cheyenne. Or Arapahoe.
And proudly.
November 22, 2008
10:26 a.m.
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Michael writes:
freeman2night - Thank you, thank you, and thanks again to you and all your brothers in arms for being "moralistic jerks". God bless you for recognizing that although the Iraq War may have been badly mismanaged at times, that the mission was and is an honorable one. That it is not about conquest and oppression.
November 22, 2008
10:48 a.m.
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johnson writes:
freema2night, I applaud your comments sir. And I thank you.
November 22, 2008
11:57 a.m.
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allen12 writes:
There is a huge difference in going AWOL and deserting. This cat deserted. From earlier articles he did not serve in comabt yet, so there is no PTSD. He's just a yellow chicken coward. Nobody forced him to enlist. He deserves the ultimate judgement.
November 22, 2008
12:09 p.m.
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haloguy628 writes:
Even Jeff Englehart who is quoted above and who seems to be the cause celebree (for all the wrong reasons) for specimens like HotFangs says that he felt fulfilling his obligation was important. Here's his quote from above:
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"I did feel that fulfilling my obligation to my contract was the personally responsible thing."
------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally don't agree with and support Jeff Engleharts position, but he has my respect because he did upheld his part of the contract and then voiced his opinion on the war. That is very important distinction that conveniently escapes bozos like HotFangs and all of the cohorts supporting Herring. There are proper ways to demonstrate against and work toward change if one does not agree with what is happening or the policies in place.
I personally believe that we should have focused on Afghanistan and Al Quaida there and not invaded Iraq. I also don't agree and am pretty scared by some of the changes that were instituted post 9/11, and the curtailment of civil and personal freedoms by the Bush administration. All of it based on fear mongering by the Bush administration and designed to increase power and control the government has over us citizens.
This however did not compel me to go and do stupid things to change it. No, I waited for elections and voted the bozos out. In other words I used the proper method to get what I wanted.
Lance Herring OTOH seems to me like somebody who only cares for himself. All of the facts are pointing toward his flawed character and selfishness. It is almost comical to me to see how he managed to harness the discontent and anger created by the past eight years to his personal benefit. I must admit he is very good con man.
November 22, 2008
12:16 p.m.
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GetReal writes:
I wonder how many angered, outraged and totally unsympathetic vets were interviewed and dismissed by The Rocky for their manufactured puff piece story on Hering, before they settled on going with these somewhat critical but amazingly understanding three.
Is anyone really believing this gives a fair representation of how the majority of vets feel towards a deserter?
Apparently, it's what the RMN wants you to believe.
November 22, 2008
12:28 p.m.
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LS writes:
Thank you freeman2night, for your service and commitment. I believe it takes a braver a soldier to defend this unpopular war, than for one not to after doing tour(s) the Middle East. Hats off to you sir.
November 22, 2008
2:13 p.m.
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HotFangs writes:
Thank you, Lance Hering, for your brave decision to leave an inhuman, soul-killing situation. I applaud your courage, and your service to basic human decency. Up with Freedom!
Ooo-rah!
November 22, 2008
3:38 p.m.
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ptcruiser writes:
Hotfangs, I hope your being sarcastic, because he is a panzy, I, like freeman2night have been to Iraq(x2) and going again, and unless I just woke up it is an all volunteer force. He had no courage by staging his disappearance, ruining his father, friends life. His service to basic human decency was to waste valuable time searching for his turn tail self. Bet they can't wait to get his name on the rolls for "Vets against Iraq war"
November 22, 2008
4:07 p.m.
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Garip writes:
It would appear that none of you really knows what this issue is about. The kid didn't run from the military, per se. He was running from a group of idiots IN the military that made thier own rules. Under the circumstances, who can blame him? Certainly now me. I'll wait to see ALL the information before passing judgment. But, since the military protects its own, it may never come to pass that any one of us really knows the truth.
November 22, 2008
9:01 p.m.
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haloguy628 writes:
Garip, check the facts. The idiots you speak of were already convicted and in the brig when he deserted. They were just convenient excuse for Lance and his supporters when he decided to run from commitment.
You can try to muddy the issues and sew confusion, in the end the truth is obvious. Herring is just selfish liar, cheat, deserter, and weakling. It is always somebody or something, but never him that is guilty of wrongdoing.