Billboard: "Don't believe in God? - You are not alone."

By John C. Ensslin, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Published November 11, 2008 at 6:49 p.m.

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November 11, 2008

7:20 p.m.

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ANOLECOWBOY writes:

lots of people are going to have a funny look on their faces, when they find out that god is real. esp where they are falling into the fires of hell. ever wonder why this country is going down hill so fast? no more plege of allegiance, no ten commandments in our gov offices and courts, not allowing youth to pray w/fellow beleivers on school grounds. god wont forget all that has been done to remove him from those places he use to be welcome.
November 11, 2008

7:23 p.m.

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REXISWRITE writes:

I read that the Apostle Paul experienced this too. What would Paul Do?
November 11, 2008

7:58 p.m.

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sldfkd writes:

...and who says that atheists don't have a religion?
November 11, 2008

8:01 p.m.

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hikingartist writes:

Yeah, thats a good one anolecowboy. That whole thing about "god is mad" at us really cracks me up too.
November 11, 2008

8:07 p.m.

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bassplayer writes:

Why can't we atheists have the right to put up a billboard, and I take offense that ANOLECOWBOY thinks I will be falling into hell fire. He does support the our constitution doesn't he. Maybe he should move to a country where there is no freedom of religon. Children should not be taught to believe in a specific god only taught to make the decisions for themselves. Leave your religous beliefs out of my public places.
November 11, 2008

8:09 p.m.

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ClarenceDarrow writes:

anolecowboy,

You're so right. You Christians are so oppressed in the U.S.

I yearn for the day when we may eventually see the election of a Christian president.

Or maybe even, I don't know, 44 in a row.
November 11, 2008

8:13 p.m.

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Ozzybee writes:

It amazes me how selfrightous religious people get toward non-believers. It's not about whether there is a god but about living a good life. The afterlife if there is one is not what the religeous people think it is, it's to complex for us to understand and religeon is just one way to help our primative minds to grasp it. I think Anolecowboy is going to be the one with the funny look on his face :)
November 11, 2008

8:21 p.m.

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trinidad writes:

Why do atheist fight so hard against something they don't believe exists?
November 11, 2008

8:25 p.m.

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thebrokenforum writes:

Because religious rejects fight so hard trying to shove it down our throats.

http://brokenswordpublications.com
November 11, 2008

8:25 p.m.

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palequ47 writes:

Why do "christians" fight so hard to convert and belittle people who don't believe as they do?
November 11, 2008

8:32 p.m.

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The_Punnisher writes:

I don't believe in RELIGION. Look at the ROOT meaning of the word:

To TIE or BIND.....

Yep, I may not believe in YOUR God, Dog or whatever...

But what YOU believe is YOUR Business and what I choose to believe is MY business.

And that is what the Founding Fathers intended this nation to have when it came to RELIGION.

Read up on it and the history of the men who came together to form the United States. You may be surprised at what you find.

You will also find that they DIDN'T put that religious motto on our money!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_W...
November 11, 2008

8:40 p.m.

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bythereever writes:

Anolecowboy- what do you care, just more room in heaven for you and the other self-righteous fanatics, right?
November 11, 2008

8:41 p.m.

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trinidad writes:

God gave people free will. You don't have to believe in God or Jesus. Not all Christians shove their faith "down your throats". If someone wants to know about God/Jesus? Ask- I would be happy to share my faith. Christianity is a faith- not a religion. Please don't "belittle" me and other Christians by calling us "religious rejects". Don't judge me and I won't judge you. Since you don't believe in God, the converts or the shovers shouldn't bother you. Just like the billboards don't bother me.
November 11, 2008

8:55 p.m.

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kali73 writes:

God or not, it is the organized churches that promote hate, bigotry, discrimiation and elitism people no longer believe in.
November 11, 2008

8:57 p.m.

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MileHighPatriot writes:

I think it's sad to what extent people will go to to combat people's faith. Do the sides of atheism and the agnostic really have such a weak argument that they must spend money on commercial advertisement? What do they even care? Why do they feel it necessary to 'convert' people?
November 11, 2008

8:58 p.m.

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thebrokenforum writes:

"Don't judge me and I won't judge you."

Ha! Tell that to your evangelical cronies who deem atheists as "sinners" and non-patriotic heathens.

"God gave people free will..."

1.) You believe in God, which invalidates your whole argument to begin with.

2.) Isn't "God" omnipotent and omniscient? So everything is already predetermined by "god" right?...thus invalidating free will. But if "God" then knew that free will would doom most of us us to eternity in Hell from the start, why bother? Because he didn’t want to create us with an instinctive desire to do his will??? Yeah, sounds logical all right.

http://brokenswordpublications.com/
November 11, 2008

9:03 p.m.

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ottopick writes:

Don't believe the propaganda Clarence. Religious groups would like us to believe that all the US Presidents have been Christians but Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Lincoln and Johnson were deist or had no specific religion. They were more of the freedom from religion as opposed to the freedom to practice our religious faith.

I don't have a problem with the billboard but as a non-religious person with nothing against most religious people why do they need to put their billboards up over the Christmas season? Let religious groups have their fun this season and save the billboards for after Christmas is over. The billboards are clearly there to annoy religious people and make the slower ones feel oppressed.
November 11, 2008

9:22 p.m.

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deriko2282 writes:

I hope the company that owns the billboards in Fort Collins and Greeley will be more open minded and allow these signs to be posted!
November 11, 2008

9:23 p.m.

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WHATRIGHTS writes:

bassplayer, if you don't believe in God or heaven then you shouldn't buy into hell either.
Ozzybee, what do you know about the afterlife, been there?
ottopick, I hope Christians don't get irritated by the billboards, they should feel sad for those people and pray for them.
ANOLECOWBOY, amen my brother. Hang tight to your faith! Let no man discourage you.
November 11, 2008

9:25 p.m.

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The_Punnisher writes:

The key word is to THINK. Use your brains. The only people who are upset with this display of words are the ones who have the tiniest bit of DOUBT in their path they have chosen. To others, these boards are just a meaningless string of symbols...

And that is precisely why this set of symbols were chosen...>8->...
November 11, 2008

9:27 p.m.

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jay writes:

"Why do atheist fight so hard against something they don't believe exists?"

really?

is anyone here this misinformed?
November 11, 2008

9:28 p.m.

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trinidad writes:

Like I said before - Why fight against something you don't think exists?
"Don't judge me and I won't judge you."
Ha! Tell that to your evangelical cronies who deem atheists as "sinners" and non-patriotic heathens.
Don't stereotype me as a crony and I won't stereotype you as a non-patriotic sinner and we'll both be able to live in this world together.
Now I will bid you all a good-night and pray for your condemned souls. (Sorry, must be the evangelical crony coming out in me.)
November 11, 2008

10:08 p.m.

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ThoughtSausage writes:

"ever wonder why this country is going down hill so fast? no more plege of allegiance"

yeah... saying the Pledge every morning at school really shaped my life and made me a better man...
you're kidding right?
November 11, 2008

10:10 p.m.

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EastVail writes:

I don't believe in God. I find it curious that some people are motivated to notify me that I am not alone.
November 11, 2008

10:12 p.m.

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dgodrummer writes:

See our anger, see our love, see our tolerance, see our intolerance. See ourselves and our thoughts put into action and we will see the truth of what is inside us.
My father once said, "stop whining and go help someone." And I thought he wasn't all that... what a fool I can be.
November 11, 2008

10:20 p.m.

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bassplayer writes:

Whatrights, I don't "buy into hell" but do use the phrase go to hell in it hateful meaning at times and feel like that was the gist of anolecowboys statement. As far as trying to prove the non existance of god I am not trying to do. As with most Atheists I cannot without a doubt be sure I am right, that being said if you believe in god you cannot be 100% sure of existance. I do however believe that religion is a place for evil and corruption to hide behind a seemingly peaceful front and for that matter if I did believe I think all of the rape and murder God orders in the bible is more evil than the Satan we hear of. So why follow God? I recently had to swear under oath to a god I don't believe in, is that fair to me or my goverment or my people?
November 11, 2008

10:21 p.m.

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agzela writes:

"18 For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them.

20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened.

22 Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish 23 and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things." (Romans 1:18-23)
November 11, 2008

10:24 p.m.

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agzela writes:

An aspect of the instinctive urge to worship is that it is universal.
It exists among men of all races, all nationalities. Even atheists worship something, though it may be their own philosophical atheism. The urge to worship is so widespread that if there were no God it would be impossibly difficult to imagine why people should spontaneously reach the conclusion that there is one.
November 11, 2008

10:49 p.m.

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Highcountry writes:

Ironic when deeply religious people (like the first poster) are so full of hate. ... So God wants us to be rude and intolerable? Grow up.
November 11, 2008

10:51 p.m.

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me2 writes:

Imagine the saddness of the poor oppressed child growing up gay in a Christian home. Probably home schooled to keep away undesirable influences.

Then the kid, while riding in his safe parents car, sees two billboards. One telling the kid that others do not believe, and another saying that about 10% of the population is gay.

Instant truth. The child is set free.

That is why people complain.
November 11, 2008

10:56 p.m.

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agzela writes:

Some, feel that it is illogical to believe in God, since we cannot see him. But what about air, sound waves, and odors? We cannot see any of these things, yet we know they exist. Our lungs, ears, and noses tell us so. Surely, we believe in what cannot be seen if we have evidence.

After contemplating the physical evidence—including electrons, protons, atoms, amino acids, and the complex brain—natural scientist Irving William Knobloch was moved to say: “I believe in God because to me His Divine existence is the only logical explanation for things as they are.”

Similarly, physiologist Marlin Books Kreider states: “Both as an ordinary human being, and also as a man devoting his life to scientific study and research, I have no doubt at all about the existence of God.”

These men are not alone. According to physics professor Henry Margenau, “if you take the top-notch scientists, you find very few atheists among them.” Neither the advances of science nor the failure of religion need force us to abandon belief in a Creator.
November 11, 2008

11:01 p.m.

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bookwerm writes:

Faith in god is one thing.. but to believe to the letter the Bible and Christianity?
Seriously, it is like a bad made up story.. son of god, born of a virgin, magical powers, died and rose again.. yeah, right.. sure, have faith.. it is a grown up version of Santa Claus you ninnies.. and you are so programmed you can't see it..
So, there is something between the quite ridiculous concept of Christianity, and the concept that there is not God, and that is where many many people exist.. they believe in a Higher Power of some sort, but sure not from a book written by a bunch of sheepherders, edited by Rome, and slanted as the believers have chosen, year after year.. But since the Christians are the establishment, the many many who feel this way just lay low..
So yes, the Emperor has not clothes, you are ridiculous, the Bible is an interesting historical artifact and nothing more.. so there, s*ck it up. I have no fear that any God worth being a God is going to come up with such a wacky religion.. only humans could do that.
November 11, 2008

11:06 p.m.

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agzela writes:

Atheists believe that intelligent man, though he cannot create life or even anything more intelligent than himself, was created by a force with no intelligence. Does it make sense?

To say that there is no Supreme Intelligence is to say that the universe has evolved something higher than itself, it has created intelligence. And to think that anything can create something it does not itself possess is the most vacuous kind of empty-headed reasoning.
November 11, 2008

11:12 p.m.

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agzela writes:

The arguments of atheists show that they have not really studied the Bible. Rather, they have listened to the clergy of Christendom who have taught lies concerning God, such as the one that he is the proprietor of a roasting compartment for human creatures called “purgatory.”

This hell of literal fire and other false doctrines such as trinity and immortality of the soul have turned some people away from God even before they investigate his Word. The Bible does not teach such unreasonable doctrines. They are taught by false religion, not by true Christianity. The atheist has erred in that he has wrongly assumed that the false religions of Christendom are of God.

So it does no good for the atheist to point to the ghastly persecutions, inquisitions and wars for which the so-called Christian religion has been responsible. The Bible declares such religions false: “They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works.”—Titus 1:16

The clergy have also denied God by turning their backs on his moral standards—as evidenced, for example, by a steady stream of lawsuits against pedophile priests.
November 11, 2008

11:18 p.m.

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rfburnhertz writes:

I am a Christian and I do believe bassplayer is correct that there is no reason atheists should not have the right to place a billboard or any kind of advertisement stating their belief that God does not exist.

They [atheists] are wrong, God does in fact exist, however they are entitled to be wrong and entitled to attempt to persuade others to believe as they do.

bookwerm and others make the mistake of believing that a belief in God and established religion are the same thing.

They are not.

God exists no matter if there are zero churches in the world or one billion churches in the world.

We call ourselves Christians because we hold a belief in the God of the bible. We gather together in churches because we share a common belief and we want to fellowship with like minded people, share with and learn from like minded people and we also want to promote a belief in God.

Churches are man made, man is flawed, hence we have so many various denominations and each and every one of those denominations are flawed.

We are Christians, we are not supermen and women, we are no less flawed than those who reject Christianity. So yes, the way Christianity is practiced is flawed our flaws are not God's flaws.

Don't let the fact that we Christians are flawed, that we are no less each a sinner than those of you who don't believe in God... don't let that keep you from God.

The perfection, the holiness is found in God not in man.
November 11, 2008

11:27 p.m.

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agzela writes:

Over three thousand years ago the Bible mentioned that the earth is suspended in space. Just hear its account of this: “He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7)
Then more than two thousand year before Columbus sailed to America from Spain to prove the earth to be round, the Bible had already stated it to be round. This ancient Book of Freedom says: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth,” (Isa. 40:22)

What kind of "sheepherders" wrote these words?

By the way bookwerm it is especially so in view of the fact that the books of the Bible were recorded by some 40 men as diverse as king, prophet, herdsman, tax collector, and physician. They did the writing over a period of 1,610 years; so there was no opportunity for collusion. Yet their writings agree, even in the smallest detail. To appreciate the extent to which the various portions of the Bible are harmoniously intertwined, you must read and study it personally.
November 11, 2008

11:29 p.m.

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The_Punnisher writes:

Douglas Adams had the last words on this subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_Long,...

"WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE"

And then he left....Or was he recalled??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_...
November 11, 2008

11:56 p.m.

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Creative_N_Denver writes:

Why do we put up with the few that do not believe in GOD? Because in America everyone has a right to voice their opinion.
November 12, 2008

12:19 a.m.

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NeilT writes:

MileHighPatriot writes: "I think it's sad to what extent people will go to to combat people's faith. Do the sides of atheism and the agnostic really have such a weak argument that they must spend money on commercial advertisement? What do they even care? Why do they feel it necessary to 'convert' people?"

LOL!

This post is hilarious! The hypocrisy just oozes from your words, MileHigh.

Through witnessing and missions, Christians try to "convert" everybody they come into contact with. Why don't the missionaries leave those South American tribes alone?

You try to build your base so you can boost your income so you can produce more propaganda so you can convert even more. And repeat. And repeat...

So if $5000 spent on advertising shows just how weak of a message this group has, what does that say about the Christian message? They spend a little more than 5 grand getting their message to the masses. Try billions more!
November 12, 2008

1:59 a.m.

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ClarenceDarrow writes:

Agzela wrote:
"The arguments of atheists show that they have not really studied the Bible."

The biologist Richard Dawkins responds to this argument by asking, "Do I need to read up on leprechology to disbelieve in leprechauns?"
November 12, 2008

6:15 a.m.

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roger44 writes:

Cowboy, what will you do when you get to the pearly gates and St Peter is wearing a turbin? which God will greet you, the one that killed the first born of men and beast in Exodus? As one man said, not all Christians are stupid, but all stupid people are Christians.
November 12, 2008

6:24 a.m.

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Gonzopozo writes:

You can believe anything you want. I don't care, why should I?

I just know that if you don't believe in God, you'd better be right.
Eternity is a long time.
November 12, 2008

6:27 a.m.

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roger44 writes:

So If a 15 year old girl came to her Christian Parents and said she was pregnant, and Dad and mom ask who did it, and she replies, immaculate conception, what would they do? Got to believe her don't they?
November 12, 2008

6:54 a.m.

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06concept writes:

Bottom line is I also believe in God and Jesus. And as a few have said in this post, you have a right to believe in what you want to. Christians share their faith as they are instructed to do. None of you have to except anything, your responsible for what you heard and chose to do with it. But non-believers also think that Christians are suppose to lay back and not fight for what they believe in. Not so, they don't have to fear none of the non-believers or care what they think. They are not to judge God will do this himself. So go on living the way you do, know one wants to stop you. Freedom of religion in the US is just that, but if you look in our history the US was built on Godly values. So with that being said, live the way you want it is your choice and free will. God made people not robots. But funny how God and Jesus are always on peoples tongues and have been for over 2000 years and still try to argue the facts. Athiest put up your signs, I don't care. Your future is in your own hands. Live it up!
November 12, 2008

7:24 a.m.

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Acemon writes:

It's about time!

Fundamentalists are happy to claim mankind is too complex to have evolved, thus must have been created by God. If God is so powerful, so all-seeing and all-knowing, then who created God?

I grow weary of Christians imposing their beliefs on others. No other faith does that.

Let's wait and see which Christian group tries to take the billboard down.
November 12, 2008

7:34 a.m.

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ez2amuze writes:

Christians believe in a god who killed his son over a fruit tree dispute. But only for a weekend. Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean that if we don't sin, we make a mockery of the crucifixion?

My proof there is no god? I read the bible. There is no god that would have allowed himself to be so slandered.

For example, take a look at Numbers 31. It's only about a page long. God orders Moses to exterminate the Midianites, man woman, children. Except the virgins were kept for the soldiers as war booty. Really? Genocide, and rape, ordered by god?

Matthew 27:35 says there was darkness for three hours while Jesus was crucified. Really? Nobody else in the world noticed this?

I could go on. Personally, I think atheists know the bible far better than christians.
November 12, 2008

7:54 a.m.

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Marshdale writes:

I have no problem with people of faith being quote "faithful." This is not what bothers me. What bothers me is those who want to put christianity in our faces in public schools and other institutions. The Constitution is very clear on this. As far as I am concerned if someone wants to pray while they are at school that is ok, but don't advocate that all people have to see it or be part of it. The other problem I have is when the hard core right wants to condem some behavior that they think is a sin, it usually comes from some passage in the Old Testament. I thought Jesus was the New Testament. If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus pretty much takes the Old Testament and stands it on its head. I thought Jesus was about loving your neighbor not hating him/her. The other problem I have is with the churches, or at least some churches. Many attempt to control peoples lives, via indoctranation of one form or another, usualy fear. This preaching of fear is why I am no longer a Christian. I made this decision when I was 14, and have stood by it for the past 28 years. I do believe in an afterlife. It is hard for me to imagine that our being is nothing more than flesh, but that is just my personal opinion. Call it heaven or something else if you like. I am a free thinker and don't allow my personal feelings to be influenced by churches. Just when did they decide what is right and what is wrong. I am confident that if there is a God, that I am ok with him/her/it. So I would appreciate it if the Christian right would leave me and the rest of those like me alone!!
November 12, 2008

7:58 a.m.

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davies writes:

I'm a Christian believer, but I do not necessarily accept the entire Bible as the word of God. Maybe it is, and I just don't understand a lot of it yet (in which case I probably never will). This distinction doesn't matter that much to me, although I realize I am at odds with many of my fellow congregators on this point. The important thing is, I recognize that what I believe was and is my choice, and I accord others the same right.

And God bless us, everyone ;-)
November 12, 2008

8:10 a.m.

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DenverNATIVE1 writes:

"I do not necessarily accept the entire Bible as the word of God"

Most people shouldn't. No man woman or child alive has read the Bible. I mean the real bible. Not some watered down (translated) version passed down for a couple thousand years. Most Biblical historians would agree that the bible is only 35% or so complete. How would people's faith change if the had the other 65% of lost, missing or ommitted material?

There are still versions with the Apocrypha published as recently as 1998.
November 12, 2008

8:16 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

Looks like the 3% of Americans that are atheists are feeling lonely. Needing to advertise to try to get some others to go along with their belief in nothing.
November 12, 2008

8:16 a.m.

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commknightj writes:

It's just these kinds of arguments that make me wish for Freedom FROM Religion rather than freedom of reigion.
Fact: The bible is a collection of stories foisted on the populace by a commitee of men in or around the 4th century AD. It is NOT the word of god. If there is a god, he should sue for slander.
Fact: More people have died in the name of religion than any other reason. Why is it, that in the name of religion, christian or muslim (zealots, all), we kill, maim,slaughter, belittle or judge anyone not of this religion to be unfit or a sinner. Religion is nothing more than a big lie, just like the ones Hitler used to destroy jews in Europe.
If anyone could prove any of the stories in the bible, I might be persuaded. But you can't, and your argument will be 'because it's the word of god and you must have faith'. piffle and other comments. Faith has nothing to do with religion.
November 12, 2008

8:20 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

Best question of the day....

"trinidad writes: Why do atheists fight so hard against something they don't believe exists?"

They must be trying to convince themselves!
November 12, 2008

8:23 a.m.

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FU writes:

Some things that are as realistic as god:

Easter Bunny
Santa Claus
Tooth Fairy
Incredible Hulk
Jolly Green Giant
SuperMan

You get the idea...

Why don't we tax churches?? It's clearly a $$ making business.
November 12, 2008

8:30 a.m.

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Lisal writes:

Thanks to all the men and women who have paid the price for us to have this right to debate the issue of religion. I appreciate your sacrifice!!!
November 12, 2008

8:32 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

commknightj writes:

"It's just these kinds of arguments that make me wish for Freedom FROM Religion rather than freedom of reigion."

You can have it. Just move to North Korea. Kim Jung Il shares your beliefs.

"Fact: The bible is a collection of stories foisted on the populace by a commitee of men in or around the 4th century AD. "

You really should learn a few facts before exposing your lack of knowledge of the subject. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor. Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation.

"Fact: More people have died in the name of religion than any other reason. "

Nonsense. Government has killed more people than religion. Do you oppose all forms of government too?
November 12, 2008

8:36 a.m.

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UNV_ME writes:

If all of these religious groups AND non-religious groups (atheists) kept to themselves the world would be a better place. I don't care if you believe in god or not... keep your opinions to yourself. And stop trying to shove your beliefs down people's throats.
November 12, 2008

8:45 a.m.

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toocool writes:

At 75 miles per hour who reads billboards, let 'em waste their bucks
November 12, 2008

8:45 a.m.

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Beergut writes:

ANOLECOWBOY: You are why some people in this world fear thier fellow citizens. This is suppose to be a nation of acceptance of others. As an atheist I can tell you the anger towards non-believers is alarming. It makes me wonder the concept of Christianity really is. Hate? Why the hate? Because we see through the falsehoods of your belief? If it comforts you, then believe. But for some of us family, friends and hard work is all we need.
November 12, 2008

8:47 a.m.

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jay writes:

wait a minute.

rickybobby, are you saying that if we want to be free from your beliefs in the supernatural we have to move out of the country?

what was it about fascism coming to america wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross?
November 12, 2008

8:51 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

"The campaign drew criticism from Catholic League President Bill Donohue, who stated, "It is a shame that an organization that worships nothing would be forced to crib its 'Holiday Campaign' ad from a Christmas song about St. Nick.""

Best quote in the story!

Bottom line: 92% of Americans believe in God. Let the Atheists rave - it's a free country and GOD bless America.
November 12, 2008

8:52 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

"This is suppose to be a nation of acceptance of others."

Must be why some put up billboards to try to convince others to believe in nothing. A very "accepting" approach.

"As an atheist I can tell you the anger towards non-believers is alarming."

Is this an example? http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/ar...

"If it comforts you, then believe. But for some of us family, friends and hard work is all we need."

And some billboards.
November 12, 2008

8:55 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

jay....

Provide the location in the Constitution or Bill of Rights where it says "freedom FROM religion"?

And make sure you rely on a source more credible than that homemade website you always use...... the one created by that guy who lives in a van down by the river.
November 12, 2008

9:07 a.m.

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toocool writes:

Jay hit the nail on the bill board, so to speak, why are the.atheists so worried about believers if there isn't anything to believe in, lot of their bucks up front to let everyone else know they're concerned!
November 12, 2008

9:07 a.m.

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Devil_Dog writes:

bassplayer writes:

Why can't we atheists have the right to put up a billboard, and I take offense that ANOLECOWBOY thinks I will be falling into hell fire. He does support the our constitution doesn't he. Maybe he should move to a country where there is no freedom of religon. Children should not be taught to believe in a specific god only taught to make the decisions for themselves. Leave your religous beliefs out of my public places.

First I'd like to say I support any fools right to be the fool on the hill, as long as they are not hurting anyone else in the process.

bassplayer why would you take offense to someone thinking you will be falling into hellfire? He has the same right to free thought and free speech, doesn't he? Besides you don't believe in hell anyway so why should you care? Hedging your bet just incase?

Once again I don't care what you believe or do not believe, but to be clear our founding fathers didn't say freedom of NO religion. They never intended of envisioned that people not believe in God.

"One Nation Under God" and all that.

And those "public places" are mine as well, so a few fools on the hill, while they are allowed to be heard, should not get to make all the rules. It's time for everyone to stand up for themselves in this country and not let the few loud mouthed fools cow tow the country into doing their bidding because of some misplaced politically correct belief system.
November 12, 2008

9:10 a.m.

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TC writes:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
November 12, 2008

9:10 a.m.

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jay writes:

rickybobby, are you saying that americans don't have the right to be free from your religion?

do you mind if i ask if you ever attended college?
November 12, 2008

9:17 a.m.

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TC writes:

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"
November 12, 2008

9:18 a.m.

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chickenlittle1234 writes:

TC - Thanks for delivering the perfect pair of quotes on this story. The only time I have a particular problem with a particular religion is when one of its proponents wants to codify it into law or otherwise stuff it down my throat with the lame explanation that theirs is somehow the one true religion. But if it does someone good to believe in one God or twenty - if that brings some meaning to their life, then have it. Just try to avoid knocking on my door with literature and I'll return that favor.
November 12, 2008

9:22 a.m.

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Acemon writes:

rickg19611,

Perhaps YOU should move to a country where religion rules everything, where tolerance for other beliefs have no place.

Considering how many religions there are in the world, Christians are a very small minority. Even here in America Christianity is not the dominant by numbers, only by vocal intimidation. Only Christians try to force others to go along.

Atheists don't try to eliminate other people's beliefs, they just want a level playing field where one group doesn't try to dominate everyone. How would you feel if Muslims or Jews wanted their religion taught in schools, wanted their monuments on public land, or tried to influnce the court system?

You are a perfect example of why many people, from all walks of life, are dismayed and disgusted when forced or coerced to join your church.
November 12, 2008

9:35 a.m.

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chickenlittle1234 writes:

The_Punnisher writes - "Douglas Adams had the last words on this subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_Long,...

"WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE"

And then he left....Or was he recalled??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_...

Kudos to your choice of quotes, as well. I've long thought that Douglas Adams had it right, and we're only waiting for that new galactic bypass to come and wipe us out.
November 12, 2008

9:36 a.m.

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EP writes:

Religion is utter nonsense, so is a belief in a 'higher power' and all the silly dogma that goes with it. Here here!
November 12, 2008

9:37 a.m.

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Devil_Dog writes:

Acemon

Perhaps you need to pay better attention to what is going on around the world and what is written here.

November 12, 2008

8:52 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

"This is suppose to be a nation of acceptance of others."

Must be why some put up billboards to try to convince others to believe in nothing. A very "accepting" approach.

"As an atheist I can tell you the anger towards non-believers is alarming."

Is this an example? http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/ar...

"If it comforts you, then believe. But for some of us family, friends and hard work is all we need."

And some billboards.
November 12, 2008

9:39 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

Acemon...

You seem to be getting off the topic. While the subject is about God, you want to attack Christianity for some bizarre reason.

But just to reinforce the obvious.....let's check your statements for accuracy.

"Considering how many religions there are in the world, Christians are a very small minority."

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.5 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

Result. Your beliefs are proven false by the facts.

"Even here in America Christianity is not the dominant by numbers, only by vocal intimidation."

According to the latest Gallup poll, only 6% of Americans are atheists, while 93% believe in a God or spiritual creator.

The largest, most comprehensive surveys on religious identification were done in sociologists Barry A. Kosmin, Seymour P. Lachman and associates at the Graduate School of the City University of New York.

Christianity is the largest religious group in the United States, making up 76.5% of the population.

Result: You lose again! Feeling lonely? Try a billboard to drum up some support.

Of course, your fixation on attacking Christians, when the subject is about God and atheists who are desperate enough to try some billboards to deal with their loneliness during the holidays, is a reflection on why you are part of such a small group in the US.
November 12, 2008

9:40 a.m.

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Darwin writes:

I personally believe in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” I don’t shove my religion “down your throat”, I don’t insist on special rights for my beliefs, I don’t resort to name calling to those who do not have the same beliefs as I do, and I am secure in my belief. Yet because of my belief, I am called a reject, a loser, etc. Is it because of your insecurity in your belief? Because of my belief I am more charitable to other people and try to help my “neighbor” as much as I can. The worst that can happen is that, if you are right in your belief that there is no God and I am wrong in believing there is a God, is that someday we will die and that is it. I have lost nothing while having helped my fellow man a little. If, on the other hand, I am right and you are wrong, I have won big time and you have lost big time. So continue your name calling and snide remarks, I can handle it and I will continue to live as good a life as you do. You might denounce me for my belief and try to take away my freedom of speech, but you can’t take away my freedom of belief because that is in my heart. Have a good day.
November 12, 2008

9:41 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

Actually, 99% of the people who "profess" to be atheist are actually apatheists. They don't live as if there is no God - they just don't care. Which is more honest than saying you're an Atheist and saying there is a difference between good and evil.

To a REAL atheist - there is no "good" or "evil". There is only situational statistics or social/anti-social behavior at best. For instance: an atheist wouldn't say that rape is "evil", since Good and Evil are religious terms; rather, he would say that rape is anti-social. 100 atheists in a room have 100 different ideas of what is "right" and "wrong" - there is no immutable external standard. //The best book ever written on this subject is Francis Schaeffer's "He is There and He is not Silent"//

This is best summed up by a REAL atheist when he correctly summed up atheism with the quote, "What is... is right".

Bottom line: 92% of Americans believe in God. Atheists (real and imagined) are angry and bitter because 92% of the public doesn't agree with them.

True story: An atheist buddy of mine told me he was having a hard time finding a long-term girlfriend. I was surprised because he was a friendly, good-looking guy who made good money. He said the problem was every time he told a potential girlfriend he was an atheist - they started looking for the door. Women understand there isn't much of a future with anyone who doesn't believe in an external standard of Good and Evil.

Thank God He loved us so much to give us His word to set the standard of Good and Evil in this fallen world!

It's a free country! Believe what you want and God Bless America!
November 12, 2008

9:43 a.m.

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SheikYurBooty writes:

It would be better if it read:

"Don't believe in God?
You're not superstitious."
November 12, 2008

9:56 a.m.

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c4l2a0 writes:

I just look forward to all of the virgins when I get to "heaven". Now that's a way to live in eternity!
November 12, 2008

9:58 a.m.

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chickenlittle1234 writes:

rickg19611 - I don't dispute your facts, but regarding the Christianity number, there's a lot more than meets the eye. Ask the same 76.5% of the US population to define what is a Christian and I doubt you'll find much agreement outside of a belief in Christ as the Messiah. Plus, under that extremely large umbrella are Catholics and those that split from the Catholic church during the Reformation (which was certainly not a bloodless affair, but did provide an excellent ongoing Monty Python joke about the Spanish Inquisition). Within the Protestants are those that believe in a literal Trinity and those that do not. There are schisms within many of the major Protestant denominations. And following each schism is the claim by one or both sides that there's is the one true faith and all others are false.

This line of thinking has led to too many wars, too much division, and an alarming amount of hatred, all in the name of God. The backlash you see with some of the posters on this site is largely a reaction to that. On a purely abstract level, the idea of religion and God comforts, but so often, it's used as an excuse to exercise power over others. The idea of the separation of church and state has been a way to avoid those problems.

Finally, be careful about trying to make an individual feel "lonely," at least until you've read (or re-read) the prophets of the Old Testament. I seriously doubt if Jeremiah or Ezekiel had too many friends, nor do I think they cared much if they did. They certainly weren't accepted during their times, nor was Jesus.
November 12, 2008

10:01 a.m.

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davies writes:

commknightj writes:

"Why is it, that in the name of religion, christian or muslim (zealots, all), we kill, maim,slaughter, belittle or judge anyone not of this religion to be unfit or a sinner. Religion is nothing more than a big lie, just like the ones Hitler used to destroy jews in Europe."

In my opinion, religion is usually just used as an excuse for murder and mayhem, but it's not the actual reason. Men kill for status and power, and they'll use religion if it suits their quest.

"If anyone could prove any of the stories in the bible, I might be persuaded... "Faith has nothing to do with religion."

I think you may be missing the point - the whole point is faith. Yes, if God proved his/her/its existence to everyone, then most everyone would believe. But it could be that the whole point of life is to determine what you choose to believe, and therefore what you choose to do with your life.

But I also admit, my sister is an agnostic/mystical type, and yet she's a better person than me. I continue to ponder that one.
November 12, 2008

10:03 a.m.

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joggle writes:

agzela: "Some, feel that it is illogical to believe in God, since we cannot see him. But what about air, sound waves, and odors? We cannot see any of these things, yet we know they exist. Our lungs, ears, and noses tell us so. Surely, we believe in what cannot be seen if we have evidence."

That is an extraordinarily weak argument. It's called the scientific method, look it up.

If you could prove God exists using the scientific method there wouldn't be hardly any atheists at all. However, unlike sound waves, odors, etc. the existence of God cannot be proven using the scientific method.

The other day Cowboy claimed that Christians figured out that the world was round and orbited the sun. However, I pointed out that the Greeks had first proved the world was round hundreds of years before Christians relearned this fact and had first considered the possibility that the world orbits the sun almost 2000 years before Copernicus came upon the idea. In my opinion early Christianity was heavily anti-science and set the western world back at least 1000 years in areas of science and philosophy (just compare what Greeks were doing in 300BC to what Christians were doing in 700AD...huge step backwards). I won't assume you knew what the Greeks were doing back then, so a short recap:

They had an advanced understanding of geometry and mathematical proofs.
They had a democracy and a senate.
They knew the world was round and had a very good estimate of its size.
They had an advanced understanding of art, with sculptures of such quality that weren't repeated in Europe until over 1000 years later.
Etc.

Heck, a lot of their government structures weren't observed again in the world until 1787 when we wrote our Constitution by men that had a good understanding of the ancient Greeks.

To this very day I still view fundamentalist Christians as being strongly anti-science and this sentiment is strongly influencing why the US is so far behind in education compared to other industrialized countries--we simply don't value education the same as they do.
November 12, 2008

10:13 a.m.

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freedomfighter1 writes:

Davies:
Does your sister practice individual beliefs, at least an eclectic view of beliefs? Does she organize with other simlar types, and discuss their views of the world and the things that "Others" do?

For me, also an agnostic, it is through the organized and mainstream religions that we loose our touch with Humanity and, if there is one, God itself. The organizationand and congregation of religious people cause fricition with other interest groups and the rights of other individuals. Think about the religious wars that are happening today. They may not be called "religious" wars, but we can all agree that there are two or three groups fighting, all with respective religous bonds. Islam, Chrisitanity and Judaism, three sister religions killng in the name of their God.

"Men kill for status and power, and they'll use religion if it suits their quest."
November 12, 2008

10:18 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

chickenlittle1234 writes:

"rickg19611 - I don't dispute your facts, but regarding the Christianity number, there's a lot more than meets the eye. Ask the same 76.5% of the US population to define what is a Christian and I doubt you'll find much agreement outside of a belief in Christ as the Messiah. "

True, but in the context of the discussion - atheism vs. a belief in God, those self-identifying themselves as Christians have much more in common with each other than with atheists.

" On a purely abstract level, the idea of religion and God comforts, but so often, it's used as an excuse to exercise power over others. "

That is the case with a variety of topics. Government has been used to exercise power over others. But it would be irrational for a person to say that all governments should be done away with, just because a handful has misused the power of government.

"Finally, be careful about trying to make an individual feel "lonely," at least until you've read (or re-read) the prophets of the Old Testament. "

The intent is not to make people feel lonely, it's to illustrate the message from atheists on their billboard. They imply that atheists are feeling lonely and the billboard is designed to remind them they are not alone.
November 12, 2008

10:22 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

joggle.....

Explain the "scientific" method that proves that Attila the Hun existed.
November 12, 2008

10:28 a.m.

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jay writes:

ricky, i'll ask again, in the hope that you'll have the intellectual honesty to answer.

can you tell us why americans don't have the right to be free from your supernatural beliefs?
November 12, 2008

10:28 a.m.

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MexEng writes:

Cowboy63 writes:

"Actually, 99% of the people who "profess" to be atheist are actually apatheists. They don't live as if there is no God - they just don't care. Which is more honest than saying you're an Atheist and saying there is a difference between good and evil.
To a REAL atheist - there is no "good" or "evil". Thank God He loved us so much to give us His word to set the standard of Good and Evil in this fallen world!"

Not so much, you have an idea what an atheist is, and your idea is pretty much wrong for the majority of us. As an atheist I came to the conclusion that there are no deities or gods as you call them because of the vast majority of them around the world and that empirical data points to anything but gods. The good vs evil is such a dumb analogy of what atheist are, we, from making very simple conclusions on the matter, just don't believe in god. People might say where does morality come from...well it comes from the belief of treating someone like a child does, when a child is born he/she does not automatically hate that person, want to harm them, but is shaped by the world and their environment to hate a certain type of persons, be it because of sex, race and yes beliefs. A person is born atheists, then it is their environment is what shapes them.
November 12, 2008

10:29 a.m.

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Johnny_LaRue writes:

Cowboy63 - they are not called "apatheists", they are called apathetic agnostics. I know several atheists and agnostics that know the difference between right and wrong. Morality is not specific to any religion or belief.
November 12, 2008

10:31 a.m.

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agzela writes:

joggle, that same scientific method says that there is a cause and effect for everything so the big bang did not start by itself..

FYI- the study of other dimensions is still in its infancy stage yet scientist know it exist I say this because with the proof of our expanding universe, black holes, why is it so hard to believe that God exist?
November 12, 2008

10:31 a.m.

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UNV_ME writes:

Numbness of the masses.
November 12, 2008

10:35 a.m.

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McGowdog writes:

The sign contradicts itself.

"Don't believe in God? - You're not alone."

We're NOT alone. God, the Creator, the Czar of the Heavens, the CEO of Nature, the Source, whatever you want to call it, IS ALWAYS THERE.

We aren't alone.

To conclude we're alone is like a wave saying there's no ocean or a spark saying there's no fire.

Go ahead and throw up the signs. It's go a little bonus "hidden" meaning.
November 12, 2008

10:36 a.m.

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juddchoate writes:

So, Rick, that means that two-thirds of the world believes in something other than a Christian God. A big chunk of those are Buddhists and Hindus - who don't believe in a God at all (just that there is something after this life).

Looks like you are in the minority, not me.
November 12, 2008

10:39 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

jay...

Save your strawman claims.... no one has said that anyone has to believe anything.

You are free to believe you were seeded here by space aliens, evolved from a glob of goo, or are a reincarnated toad.

Now if you want to join commknightj when he says in his "wish for Freedom FROM Religion rather than freedom of reigion.", then you can join in any place on earth where there is freedom FROM religion. That's not the USA, since we have freedom OF religion. The only place around with freedom FROM religion, is North Korea.

Enjoy yourself in that atheist utopia. I'm sure you'll find it so much more liberating that that mean ole US with all of their religious FREEDOM.
November 12, 2008

10:40 a.m.

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jay writes:

"why is it so hard to believe that God exists"

why is it so easy for you to believe in a skydaddy that made, monitors and manipulates not only the universe, but each of our lives, while partying with our ghosts in the sky AND doing battle with a goblin that lives under the ground and tortures those that have abortions and homosexual sex?

seems like a silly question when you think about it that way, no?
November 12, 2008

10:42 a.m.

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philvysor writes:

Looks like a good place, If you are a Christian why are you trying to convience the people that don't want to believe that there is a GOD. IF the Bible is true on what it says we will all have too answer for our actions. Right, Wrong or indifferent, That also goes for what we believe also.
November 12, 2008

10:43 a.m.

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agzela writes:

Its not surprising that the Bible was written for those with the right heart condition to understand it and be moved by its writings.

"12 And I, even I, turned to see wisdom and madness and folly; for what can the earthling man do who comes in after the king? The thing that people have already done. 13 And I saw, even I, that there exists more advantage for wisdom than for folly, just as there is more advantage for light than for darkness.
14 As regards anyone wise, his eyes are in his head; but the stupid one is walking on in sheer darkness. And I have come to know, I too, that there is one eventuality that eventuates to them all. 15 And I myself said in my heart: “An eventuality like that upon the stupid one will eventuate to me, yes, me.” Why, then, had I become wise, I overmuch so at that time? And I spoke in my heart: “This too is vanity.” 16 For there is no more remembrance of the wise one than of the stupid one to time indefinite. In the days that are already coming in, everyone is certainly forgotten; and how will the wise one die? Along with the stupid one." (Ecc 2:12-16)
November 12, 2008

10:43 a.m.

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joggle writes:

rickg19611: 'Explain the "scientific" method that proves that Attila the Hun existed.'

That's a different argument than the one used by the person I was replying to. The person I was replying to explicitly (and ludicrously) compared belief in things that can be incontrovertibly proved using the scientific method to the existence of God.

If God currently exists you would expect him to be observable in some way. If God only existed in the past then that's a different issue altogether. However, since Attila the Hun is only claimed to be a man then it will immediately get more acceptance than God since we don't see God on a daily basis but do see other people. As for whether Hun did all of the things claimed by historical texts, then you would use the same method as historical scholars, which is to first determine the likelihood a historical text is to be accurate (based on other writings of the author and see how well they line up with other authors' accounts) and whether there are other stories relating to Hun by other authors that seem to be independently written and see how well they agree with each other.
November 12, 2008

10:53 a.m.

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agzela writes:

"24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them." (Romans 1:24-32)
November 12, 2008

10:53 a.m.

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davies writes:

freedomfighter1: My agnostic sister goes to the Unitarian church somewhat regularly, but from what I understand of that church, a basic premise they have is that they are open to many differing viewpoints and beliefs. But one thing I know, she is a peach!

You may blame religion for so many of the various wars involving Christians, Jews and Muslims if you see it that way. But I believe that if there were no such thing as religion, men would still make war just as much or more. Where ever there are two families, tribes, ethnic groups, nations, and yes religions or whatever, there exists the likelihood of war.

Sometimes it's Hatfields versus McCoys. Sometimes it's Christians versus Muslims. Sometimes it's something as dumb as North versus South. It's the nature of the beast called Man.
November 12, 2008

10:55 a.m.

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jay writes:

so what you're saying, if i understand you correctly, rickybobby, is that you can't provide us with any reason why americans shouldn't have the right to be free from your chosen religion.
November 12, 2008

10:56 a.m.

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joggle writes:

agzela: "joggle, that same scientific method says that there is a cause and effect for everything so the big bang did not start by itself.."

Even atheists and agnostics usually won't argue the point of what caused the Big Bang. Perhaps a god made the initial Big Bang, but their argument would be it appears that this god has had no other observable influence on the universe since then. Then it's just a question of, so if this god initially created the universe why would he/she/it not have any further influences on the universe?

They usually would also argue that such a god does not seem to match the description of God written in the Bible that had a very interactive relationship with people in the distant past (by stopping the Earth's rotation in order to finish a battle, preserving a guy's life within a wale, etc). It's because of things like that one day getting extended that, at the very least, everything within the Bible cannot be interpreted literally. If such a miraculous event had occurred it would have been observable by everyone living on Earth, and other people would have recorded it. It's possible that those recordings would be lost to the passage of time, but on its face it just seems utterly ridiculous.
November 12, 2008

10:59 a.m.

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me2 writes:

Hello Punisher, another Douglas fan here. Remember that the babble fish destroyed religion.

Many theoretical physists have the eerie feeling that the Universe wanted to be alive so it made us.

You say, some one said that because the Universe has no intelligence only an intelligent identity could have created it. I like that, but he Universe also lacks a sense of humor, and we have one so maybe in some reverse way we created the Universe. Out of chaos comes comedy central.
November 12, 2008

11:03 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

joggle writes:

"That's a different argument than the one used by the person I was replying to. "

It's not different. Do you have scientific evidence to prove that Attila the Hun existed?

"If God currently exists you would expect him to be observable in some way."

What observations do you have of Attila the Hun? Julius Caesar? Are you saying that because they are not observable, that they did not exist?

Did Native Americans ever observe Julius Caesar? Since they didn't observe him, would they be correct to say that he didn't exist?
November 12, 2008

11:04 a.m.

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joggle writes:

davies: "Sometimes it's Hatfields versus McCoys. Sometimes it's Christians versus Muslims. Sometimes it's something as dumb as North versus South. It's the nature of the beast called Man."

I agree. However, I don't think it's part of the nature of man to be anti-science. I think wherever you find people predisposed to doubt scientific methods and conclusions it's invariably due to their religious beliefs. The Greeks weren't particularly religious and made enormous scientific progress and laid the ideas of our eventual form of government thousands of years ago. The Chinese also made much progress during the dark ages while having very few religious beliefs.

The history of Christianity is full of resistance to scientific progress as is the Muslim faith's history, which has long ended their leading role in mathematics about a thousand years ago (whom we derived our numeric system).
November 12, 2008

11:09 a.m.

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joggle writes:

rickg19611: You are quoting the wrong part. My explanation was pretty clear:

"The person I was replying to explicitly (and ludicrously) compared belief in things that can be incontrovertibly proved using the scientific method to the existence of God."

You, on the other hand, are comparing the existence of God to our belief that historical figures existed. That is a different argument. If you lack the logic to at least understand something that simple it's pointless to debate with you.
November 12, 2008

11:10 a.m.

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LeLo writes:

Cowboy, what a load of crap.

1. Atheism has nothing to do with good and evil, nothing to do with morality. Atheism denies the existence of deities, plain and simple. Johnny_LaRue said it well, "Morality is not specific to any religion or belief."
2. You claiming to know what a "real atheist" is? That's like me trying to claim I know what a "real christian" is. If I were to come up with a definition, it would not include you, my friend, as in my definition "real" Christians would not presume to judge others as freely as I have witnessed you judge others. That said, if you want to call yourself a christian, by all means, do so, and I will call myself an atheist, regardless of any definitions you decide to come up with.
3. I could care less if 92% of the public agrees with my atheistic viewpoint. That does not make me bitter. It is as immaterial to me as the percentage of the American public that roots for the Broncos. I root for them, and I could care less what percentage of the American public also roots for them. And yes, I just equated the belief in a supernatural being with the support of a sports team. The simple fact believers cannot grasp is I truly do not believe there is anything to believe in. I often get the question, "Don't you think you are missing something?" How can I feel I am missing something if I know there is nothing to miss? And, to the point, why should I care if anyone believes in an omniscient, all-powerful, all-knowing super-being that I know does not exist? I don't care. Believe as you would like. It is as immaterial to me as which football team you root for. Just don't, please, ask me to root for the Patriots, and don't try to force your beliefs on me either.
November 12, 2008

11:10 a.m.

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juddchoate writes:

LOL
November 12, 2008

11:12 a.m.

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davies writes:

agzela: Another thing I believe is that you don't get anywhere with nonbelievers by quoting Chapter and Verse. You may as well just chant incantations to yourself.
November 12, 2008

11:15 a.m.

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Garip writes:

TO YOU SILLY FOLKS CLAIMING THAT THERE IS A GOD, AND FURTHERMORE, REFERRING TO SAID GOD WITH 'HE' 'HIM' 'HIS', my question to you is; So, is 'his' mr. happy a big one? does he wake up with stiffy (like most other 'males'?) Seriously, whatdya think?
November 12, 2008

11:21 a.m.

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infidel91 writes:

RickG:

Where in the Constitution does it say "freedom OF religion?"
When you claim that there is no freedom FROM religion, are you saying that a law requiring attendance at religious services would be constitutional?
November 12, 2008

11:24 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

joggle....

The question is simple. You should be able to answer.

What scientific evidence do you have to prove the existence of Attila the Hun?

What scientific evidence do you have to prove the existence of Julius Caesar?
November 12, 2008

11:26 a.m.

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BigSky182 writes:

It's really very simple to me. I have a son. He is probably not as perfect as I think he is, but I will have words with anyone who challenges me on that topic.

I think about my child, and I ask myself this question: "What could this child ever do that would entice me to light him on fire and cast him into eternal hellfire?"

The answer, of course, is absolutely nothing. He cannot commit any crime or "sin" for which I could not ultimately forgive him. I might get angry for awhile. I might be disappointed in his behavior. I might ground him for a few days. (Been there, done that).

But there is nothing that he could ever possibly do that would evoke eternal hatred from me.

So if there is a God... and I believe that there is... and I am his Child... it would be arrogant of me to assume that I have a greater capacity for loving my Children than God has for me.

That's my belief. I will not be swayed from it by the Catholic Church... or the Morman Church... or Islam... or the Jews... and certainly not by some ridiculous billboard for which some group of idiots paid way too much.

Argue the point until you are blue in the face. Debate until the end of times. In the end, it makes no difference at all.
November 12, 2008

11:28 a.m.

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Hola writes:

rickg19611, there's ample historical evidence for the prior existence of Caesar. If someone told me he could walk on water and raise the dead though, I'd be skeptical.
November 12, 2008

11:32 a.m.

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LeLo writes:

rickg19611, there is plenty of historical evidence in regards to the existence of Attila the Hun and Julius Caesar. There is also historical evidence in regards to the existence of Jesus. I would not deny that a man by the name of Jesus existed. I would also not deny that Jesus was one of the greatest humanistic philosophers of all time. The fact remains, however, that there is no evidence that said philosopher Jesus was the offspring of an omniscient, all-knowing, all-powerful super-being.
November 12, 2008

11:33 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

infidel91 writes:

"Where in the Constitution does it say "freedom OF religion?""

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Enjoy your freedom OF religion. And the others as well.
November 12, 2008

11:35 a.m.

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BigSky182 writes:

You have to admit LeLo, that if Jesus WAS a hoax then Mary had the queen mother of all cover stories for cheating on her hubby.
November 12, 2008

11:35 a.m.

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CrunchyKnee writes:

God is a crutch. If you are crippled you need a crutch. Simple as that. Big deal.
November 12, 2008

11:37 a.m.

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jay writes:

how is it again that we can't be free from your religion, rickybobby?
November 12, 2008

11:39 a.m.

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Garip writes:

BigSky182: I would have to say that it was Joseph who suggested the cover story. He was a gimpy old man (or so the story goes) and needed a progeny to care for him in his old days. Mary, the little hussy, got herself knocked up by some cute guy, and then, because the cute guy wanted nothing more to do with her, hooked up with Joey.
November 12, 2008

11:39 a.m.

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LeLo writes:

Absolutely, BigSky, absolutely. She had the perfect cover.
November 12, 2008

11:42 a.m.

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juddchoate writes:

BigSky - You have very clearly demonstrated the difference between "faith" and "rationality."

There is a complete and utter dearth of evidence supporting the existence of a God, yet some people believe despite the leap of faith it requires. This is faith. I discount faith, where others do not.

My frustration with the U.S. (and the world generally) is that my lack of belief is just as reasonable as your faith - yet I will never be able to run for president or join the Supreme Court.

Is it "reasonable" that people who defer only to rational thought should be discriminated against in preference for the faithful?
November 12, 2008

11:43 a.m.

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mrwiizrd writes:

"jay writes:

why is it so easy for you to believe in a skydaddy that made, monitors and manipulates not only the universe, but each of our lives, while partying with our ghosts in the sky AND doing battle with a goblin that lives under the ground and tortures those that have abortions and homosexual sex?"

I'm sure many may find this comment offensive, but this is one of the funniest things I've read in a while, well played sir.
November 12, 2008

11:45 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

LeLo writes:

"there is plenty of historical evidence in regards to the existence of Attila the Hun and Julius Caesar. "

State the evidence. Books? Statues? Paintings? What else?

No one has seen Attila the Hun and Julius Caesar, but people say they "know" they existed. They have the exact same evidence of Julius Caesar and Attila the Hun, as they have of God. Books, paintings, statues, etc.

If you KNOW that Caesar and Attila the Hun existed based on the same evidence, then why do you reject the same evidence that demonstrates the existence of God?
November 12, 2008

11:47 a.m.

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enough321 writes:

I read this story once about a magic baby that grew up and happened to be around when miraculous things happened, and then everyone loved him and he was wise beyond his years and was always kind and helpful to those around him. He was especially good to a guy that was severly injured and a girl that was drug-addicted and slept around alot.

I think the name of the story was the New Testament. Or Forrest Gump. I can't remember, but I do remember this: Forrest Saves.
November 12, 2008

11:51 a.m.

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LeLo writes:

rickg19611 ...

Nothing you will ever say will get me to believe in an omniscient, all-knowing, all-powerful super-being. I do not mind if you or anyone else or everyone else believes in the "skydaddy". You are welcome to that faith. I do not share it nor will I ever share it. Arguing with you about the existence of Attila the Hun and Julies Caesar is pointless. Thank you.
November 12, 2008

11:52 a.m.

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MsValeriah writes:

A comment regarding the "Be Good for Goodness' Sake" billboard: I think that Bill Donahue either didn't get or arbitrarily ignored the point that was being made. Regardless of one's belief or disbelief in Deity, what's wrong with practicing goodness and kindness just because it's the right thing to do? Is goodness out of fear of eternal damnation or hope of eternal reward as honest and genuine as goodness that stems from simply wanting to do or be "good"?

A large part of why I left Christianity behind is that whole concept of "fearing God". How can you love or trust what you fear? How is that right?

I think all of us who do have a belief in a Higher Power of some sort are doing our best to interpret something far vaster than our intellectual understanding can comprehend. Perhaps it's not a discrete Being, but a Force? I can have no way of knowing, but I have asked from time to time for help and guidance and I always have gotten what I need, so I trust whatever It is and am very grateful for the many blessings in my life, and so, give thanks - frequently. I trust that when the time comes that I shuffle off this mortal coil, whatever It is will deal kindly with me. I figure if I'm wrong, I'll never know, so what harm?

Everyone has their own perception of the Infinite (or not) and it seems best to just respect that. Sometimes I fail at that when confronted by the more narrow-minded, fanatical version of believers in any religion - my experience of that has been largely with unintelligent fundamentalist Christians, but I realize not all Christians are of that ilk.

My point is that genuine morality can exist and thrive outside of religion and each of us has our own way. I'm not sure we need billboards to profess any of it, but the "Be Good for Goodness' Sake" is actually a good message for all of us.
November 12, 2008

11:52 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

Hola writes:

" If someone told me he could walk on water and raise the dead though, I'd be skeptical."

Just as people were skeptical at one time that man could fly, or travel faster than 40mph, or walk on the moon.
November 12, 2008

11:52 a.m.

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jay writes:

"If you KNOW that Caesar and Attila the Hun existed based on the same evidence, then why do you reject the same evidence that demonstrates the existence of God?"

wow.

someone's drunk already.
November 12, 2008

11:53 a.m.

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juddchoate writes:

Rickg - I don't know if Jesus existed, but I admit that there are documents, which we can scientifically verify were written at about the same time that Jesus would have lived, suggesting he did (just as there are similar documents verifying the life of Caesar, Attila the Hun, etc. The point is not whether there was a Jesus or not, but whether he was divine or not. In support of this truly extra-ordinary leap of faith, it should require something more than mere contemporaneous writings. There must be tangible evidence beyond the circumstantial.

Seeing none and having heard no arguments reasonably supporting this proposition, I have concluded that Jesus was just a guy who likely was staked to a cross at some point.
November 12, 2008

11:53 a.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Billboard or not. It is a freedom of speech. Agree or not. But looking at the Community level and our differences, I have a question:

If I were stranded along side the road, would the fish sticker on my bumper stop anyone from helping or would cause anyone to be more likely to help?
November 12, 2008

11:55 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

jay....

You win the "Weakest Defense of Your Position" award for the day. Check out some debating courses in the area. You need it.
November 12, 2008

11:59 a.m.

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jay writes:

"Check out some debating courses in the area."

brilliant...this coming from the person refusing to tell us how we as americans don't have the right to be free from his religion, AND is basing his position that his god exists because we have historical data supporting the existence of caesar and attila the hun.

thanks, ricky, you are entertaining if not cogent.

keep up the good work.
November 12, 2008

12:04 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

jay....

Still inventing your strawmen? No wonder you aren't able to refute the points made.... you're focusing on topics that aren't even being discussed.
November 12, 2008

12:06 p.m.

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BroncoRick69 writes:

Who would have thought so many people have an opinion on a religion-based article? This is stuff world wars are made of.
November 12, 2008

12:07 p.m.

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freedomfighter1 writes:

Bigsky
I agree with you, who would punish their child forever? And if you knew that your child would be born and suffer and eternity of misery, and you had the choice to produce the child, would you?
November 12, 2008

12:09 p.m.

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juddchoate writes:

Rickg - The silence makes me wonder whether you have abandoned the field, vanquished by the irrefutable wisdom of my argument in much the same way that Caesar first conquered the Gaul (or so we are told by those silly history books).
November 12, 2008

12:10 p.m.

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HankReardon writes:

Here's a little ditty from my churchin' days...

BLESSED

Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit.
Blessed is the lamb whose blood flows.
Blessed are the sat upon, spat upon, ratted on,
O lord, why have you forsaken me?
I got no place to go,
I’ve walked around soho for the last night or so.
Ah, but it doesn’t matter, no.

Blessed is the land and the kingdom.
Blessed is the man whose soul belongs to.
Blessed are the meth drinkers, pot sellers, illusion dwellers.
O lord, why have you forsaken me?
My words trickle down, like a wound
That I have no intention to heal.

Blessed are the stained glass, window pane glass.
Blessed is the church service makes me nervous
Blessed are the penny rookers, cheap hookers, groovy lookers.
O lord, why have you forsaken me?
I have tended my own garden
Much too long.

(Oops, sorry that was Paul Simon, a demi-god of sorts.)
November 12, 2008

12:10 p.m.

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agzela writes:

I remember hearing plenty of "Ohhh my God!" during 9/11 wonder how many of those where atheist? The fact is when people are in great distress they call out to God even atheist,,,Check out some soldiers that fought in WW2.
November 12, 2008

12:14 p.m.

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jay writes:

i think you're confused about the definition of a strawman argument, ricky.

can you tell me where you think i made a strawman argument or at least tell us why you believe we as americans aren't allowed to be free from your religion?
November 12, 2008

12:15 p.m.

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TC writes:

juddchoate writes:
"my lack of belief is just as reasonable as your faith"
Well put.
November 12, 2008

12:20 p.m.

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joggle writes:

rickg19611: You completely missed the point of my last post. You claimed that your argument and agzela's argument are equivalent. That demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of either the English language or logic.

agzela's argument was, "Some, feel that it is illogical to believe in God, since we cannot see him. But what about air, sound waves, and odors? We cannot see any of these things, yet we know they exist. Our lungs, ears, and noses tell us so. Surely, we believe in what cannot be seen if we have evidence."

Your argument is, 'Explain the "scientific" method that proves that Attila the Hun existed.'

When I pointed out that the arguments were different and exactly why they were different you said I'm wrong but did not explain why. I didn't say your argument was invalid, but different and replied to your argument as well later in that post. If you can't see that the arguments are different then you show such a lack of understanding of either English or logic that it's pointless to argue with you regardless of what your points are.
November 12, 2008

12:26 p.m.

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Noia writes:

Who cares if people are tossing up billboards for religion or against it? The end result is the same. The few people who see those and think "Hey I'll start/stop believing in a god!" Are going to be people who were considering one or the other already. And would have went either way with or without the sign.

I'm sure most people here realize egg + sperm = baby. You're not going to convince a Christian that egg - sperm = baby can't happen. That's why they consider it a "miracle".

Debating someone about their faith never works because to debate you need logic. There is no logic in faith that's why it's faith.

Agzela, one bonus to being a non-Christian is being able to take someone elses god's name in vain without any alleged kick back for it. ;)
November 12, 2008

12:30 p.m.

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HankReardon writes:

Is it Agzealot or Agzilla?

What you think is god is really just another species of humanoid that is more advanced than us. Highly intelligent and evolved aliens. That's what I believe.

Oh yeah, and I didn't just burst into flames right now. ;)
November 12, 2008

12:35 p.m.

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juddchoate writes:

Sadly, it looks like Rickg has left us. Too bad really - we will miss his freshman-makes-good-civics-class arguments (at least, I know I will).

Noia - I believe that many more than 8% of the populous are either agnostic or atheist. But, they are reluctant to voice that belief for fear that they alone hold it. Seeing big obnoxious signs suggesting a community of opinion in support of rational thought might spur them "out of the closet."

So, go forth and signiply.
November 12, 2008

12:49 p.m.

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mrwiizrd writes:

"agzela writes:

I remember hearing plenty of "Ohhh my God!" during 9/11 wonder how many of those where atheist? The fact is when people are in great distress they call out to God even atheist,,,Check out some soldiers that fought in WW2."

I remember hearing plenty of "Oh S***!" and "Oh F***!" during 9/11; wonder how many of those were Christians? The fact is when people are in great distress they call out all sorts of things.
November 12, 2008

12:52 p.m.

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BigSky182 writes:

Judd:

It is both an honor and a privilege for me to say unto you:

I disagree with your belief and whole-heartedly support your right to believe it.

The world would be a better place if all People could simply leave their Religion in their church (temple, synagouge, whatever).

The fact that People ever have or ever do literally KILL each other over differences in Religion continues to amaze me.

I have not personally seen any Religious text anywhere that says "Go out right now and Kill everyone who disagrees with you." I have heard that there is a radical muslim text that says something like that, but I have never seen it.
November 12, 2008

12:53 p.m.

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Garip writes:

Mrwiizrd: you took the words right out of my mouth!!! Thank you!
November 12, 2008

12:55 p.m.

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MsValeriah writes:

BigSky, I agree with your post, too. It makes no sense to me whatsoever that a loving God would cast any of the children He made into an everlasting lake of fire, no matter what. Get angry, yes. Frustrated? Of course. Allow them to face the consequences of their actions? Sure - that's something that helps us learn and grow, and any truly intelligent, loving parent would do just that. That's what the concept of karma is really all about - experiencing the consequence of our actions - whether in one lifetime or throughout the course of several.

It's that paradigm of obedience through fear of hellfire that I just can't buy into, and that's why I walked away from that interpretation of the Divine. I cannot fathom why a loving God would deem it necessary to bring about the brutal and violent death of His own Son (or require any bloody sacrifice for that matter) in order to atone for the behavior of the rest of His children. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. If a human being were to behave similarly they would be viewed as a psychopath.

I mean no offense to the genuine Christians, truly. I just don't understand why it should be so necessary when an all-powerful God would have the power to simply forgive and find some other way to help His children learn right from wrong. Jesus' message of loving one's neighbor and not judging others was a spark of the Divine, and in keeping with the wisdom that is at the deep core of all the world's faiths. (Most express very similar concepts in ways most suited to the cultures they arise from, if you stop to take a very good look.) I think that his message has been woefully misinterpreted if not completely lost by some who claim to follow him. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms...
November 12, 2008

1:01 p.m.

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Garip writes:

BigSKy182: Actually, I have read the Koran (along with all the other, wonderful fairy tales of gods) and I can assure you, the Koran doesn't mention anything about killing people who disagree with you. You may find b.s. on the internet claiming that it does, but read the Koran, ifn your interested. You won't find it there.
November 12, 2008

1:19 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

jay...

"can you tell me where you think i made a strawman argument or at least tell us why you believe we as americans aren't allowed to be free from your religion?"

You proved it in your own sentence.
November 12, 2008

1:21 p.m.

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juddchoate writes:

He's BACK!

Hi Rick.
November 12, 2008

1:24 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

"The world would be a better place if all People could simply leave their Religion in their church (temple, synagouge, whatever)."

You mean like how atheists put their beliefs on a billboard?

"The fact that People ever have or ever do literally KILL each other over differences in Religion continues to amaze me."

So you think that killing each other over pocket change makes sense? Or killing each other over political differences? Or killing each other over college football game result? Or killing each other over a child crying?

Here's a hint..... the issue isn't why people kill each other over religion (or any other topic). The issue is why do people kill each other. Period.
November 12, 2008

1:25 p.m.

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blm69 writes:

Atheism is a religion in itself. Nobody knows the mysteries of the universe and why waste your life trying to figure out what you simple cannot know. Religion divides people. We should try to make the only world we really know, the one if front of us, better.
November 12, 2008

1:27 p.m.

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BigSky182 writes:

MsValeriah:

My "crisis of faith" happened when I was 8 years old and started to question the things I was being taught in Catechism. No one had any answers to the tough questions that made any sense.

For instance:

If Adam and Eve were the first 2 people and they had Sons and Daughters, then wouldn't the Sons and Daughters had to have had sex with each other in order to populate the world?

Same question a few hundred years later when Noah, his Wife, their three Sons and their Wives became the only survivors of the great flood.

After leaving the Catholic Church, I studied MANY different religions and more than a little ancient mythology.

The paralells that I found in Native American, Greek, Roman, Norse, and Chinese mythology to classic Christian, Jewish, Mormon, and Buddhist teachings were astonishing.

They all teach pretty much the same thing:

Be good to yourselves and each other.
November 12, 2008

1:30 p.m.

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jay writes:

"Atheism is a religion in itself"

not even a little bit.

does the acknowledgement that i don't believe in the easter bunny qualify me as religious as well?

ricky, if you can't tell me what strawman argument you're talking about, is it safe to say you were lying about it?

can you finally tell us why we can't be free from your religion?

"the issue isn't why people kill each other over religion (or any other topic). The issue is why do people kill each other. Period."

no...it's the fact that millions have been killed over religion based on supernatural beliefs.

that is the issue.
November 12, 2008

1:32 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

joggle...

"When I pointed out that the arguments were different and exactly why they were different you said I'm wrong but did not explain why. I didn't say your argument was invalid, but different and replied to your argument as well later in that post. If you can't see that the arguments are different then you show such a lack of understanding of either English or logic that it's pointless to argue with you regardless of what your points are."

Why do you choose to use a different standard of evidence when seeking the same outcome? That's not every scientific. The scientific approach would be to use a consistent test method for validity of your theory that Attila the Hun existed but God does not.

For example, what evidence is there that Attila the Hun existed?

Have you observed him in person? No.
Have you seen photographic or video evidence of him? No.
Have you heard first hand witness statements of his existence? No.
Have you seen artistic renditions of him? Probably so.
Have you seen witness testimony of him (books, etc). Probably so.

Use the same questions about God. Same answers.

So the key question is, why do you believe a person you've never met or seen for yourself existed, but God cannot, based on the exact same evidence results?
November 12, 2008

1:36 p.m.

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mrwiizrd writes:

"BigSky182 writes:

They all teach pretty much the same thing:

Be good to yourselves and each other."

Isn't it interesting that this often the first thing thrown out the window by religious followers of all walks of life when they disagree with someone?

The hypocrisy is incredible.
November 12, 2008

1:39 p.m.

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blm69 writes:

Jay,

Atheism is an affirmative belief in the nonexistence of a god or gods. How can you possibly know if there are or are not gods in the Universe. My point is that a belief system that requires some faith is a religion. I do not subscribe to any religion because I don't think that there is anyway of knowing anything beyond what we can percieve with our senses. Is there a god?? I don't know. Is Jesus the savior of the world? I don't know.
November 12, 2008

1:40 p.m.

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davies writes:

11:52 a.m. MsValeriah writes:

"Regardless of one's belief or disbelief in Deity, what's wrong with practicing goodness and kindness just because it's the right thing to do? Is goodness out of fear of eternal damnation or hope of eternal reward as honest and genuine as goodness that stems from simply wanting to do or be "good"?"

Well I'm not against doing good, but absent the existence of a Diety, what makes any particular act or gesture "good"?
November 12, 2008

1:45 p.m.

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juddchoate writes:

Blm69 - The absence of something is not "something." Thus, the absence of belief is not a belief.
November 12, 2008

1:46 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

jay....

Let's test your comprehension.

You keep claiming that people are saying "you cannot be free from my religion". You can't provide ANY evidence that anyone said that in this entire thread. None. Zero. Nada.

"it's the fact that millions have been killed over religion based on supernatural beliefs."

How many have been killed based on beliefs about government? Do you oppose all governments because some have been killed over beliefs about government?

How many have been killed based on greed? Do you oppose all money because some have been killed over money?

How many have been killed based on land? Do you oppose ownership of property because some have been killed over land?

How many have been killed based on lust? Do you oppose gender integration because some have been killed over lust?

How many have been killed based on anger? Do you oppose human interactions because some have been killed over anger?

Case closed. Your argument is too weak to be taken seriously.
November 12, 2008

1:48 p.m.

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Creative_N_Denver writes:

I believe there is a GOD because I have seen with my eyes the miracle of this truth. However, I also believe that Everyone has a right to their belief.
I will not argue with a non-believer that has turned away from GOD or chooses not to believe. People who act like the telephone salesperson turn people away from learning about GOD.
November 12, 2008

1:49 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

juddchoate writes:

"Blm69 - The absence of something is not "something." Thus, the absence of belief is not a belief."

Incorrect. Believing that God does not exist is a belief.

Straight from the dictionary.

Belief (n) -
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
November 12, 2008

2:02 p.m.

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davies writes:

C_N_D: Good post. I agree.

You want to argue about something else? ;-)
November 12, 2008

2:11 p.m.

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agzela writes:

Go ahead Noia make yourself known and take your stand!
November 12, 2008

2:15 p.m.

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agzela writes:

HankReardon- You made me laugh!
November 12, 2008

2:16 p.m.

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Heidi writes:

davies,

Do you believe "good" cannot be defined in the absense of a deity?
November 12, 2008

2:17 p.m.

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juddchoate writes:

Rick - I think I know where you went off the rails. So, atheism is not the opposite of religion. It's the opposite of theism (or, more accurately, the lack of theism). A theist is a person who believes in a god. An atheist is a person without theism - thus they are persons without belief. Atheism is not a belief system. Atheism is not a religion or an ideology or a governing philosophy. Theism is the presence of belief in the existence of at least one god of some sort, atheism is the absence of any sort of belief.

I direct you to the wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

You will see that has atheism has no common ideology of set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.
November 12, 2008

2:28 p.m.

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MsValeriah writes:

Davies writes: "Well I'm not against doing good, but absent the existence of a Diety, what makes any particular act or gesture "good"?

My normal criteria would be to consider if a thought or deed of mine would beneficial to others as well as myself. I can question if my action is truthful / honest? Can I provide comfort, help or support to others through my actions? Can I contribute something to this situation that will benefit those concerned?
In short, if something is in general life-affirming, it is good. If malicious or destructive - bad. There is no black/white line to be drawn. As with everything, there are grey areas, but in general, that's how it works. It's all a matter of what we choose to do with our lives, regardless of our beliefs.
November 12, 2008

2:32 p.m.

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BigSky182 writes:

I think Davies posed an interesting question Heidi. The concepts of "good" and "evil" are entirely man made and wholly subjective. They are also highly fluid and change from society to society and even within a society as it evolves (or devolves as the case may be).

As recently as 300 years ago it was considered "good" to burn Women alive for witchcraft and heresy.

More recently than that, it was consider "good" to have slaves.

More recently still it was consider "good" to seperate the Whites from the not-Whites.

Some cultures see having multi wives as "good". Some have no problem with grown Men marrying 11 year old girls. Some think that sex with livestock is a perfectly acceptable way to relieve sexual tension.

In my mind, this is the problem with the fanatics on the lunatic fringe of the conservative right wing. They cannot seem to fathom that "good" and "evil" cannot be concretely defined.
November 12, 2008

2:52 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

juddchoate...

I said that atheism is a belief, not that it is a religion or a belief system.

Believing that God does, or does not, exist is a belief.
November 12, 2008

3 p.m.

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juddchoate writes:

Are you challenging Wikipedia, my dear sir? Because that is heresy (note the condescending religious reference).
November 12, 2008

3:40 p.m.

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cassidy22 writes:

My husband claims I am atheist. I don't agree with him. I believe there is some higher power that we can't comprehend.

I also believe in science - evolution, big bang and all that. Science isn't an opinion, it's fact. Believing in god is pure faith.

what I do NOT BELIEVE IN are religious organizations. I was raised Catholic and left when I pieced together the hypocrisy. I was taught to love my neighbor as I love myself - but the Catholic church preaches intolerance of gays. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with any organization that claims it is based on LOVE, FORGIVENESS and TOLERANCE - and they practice NONE of those things. They only love, forgive and tolerate people who are just like them. They persecute any stereotype they choose.

Jesus did none of that. If you read the bible closely, he only EVER got mad at tax collectors and money lenders for treating people unfairly. Jesus never ONCE practiced intolerance of gays, prostitutes, people of other or no faith. He practiced love and forgiveness of all people. Today's organized religions are so far from that, I have chosen not to be a part of any of them. I practice love and tolerance, and I need neither a man in a funny robe, incense, money in a basket or grape juice on sundays to help me practice those things.
November 12, 2008

3:45 p.m.

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rg writes:

Paul would say: I hate women.
November 12, 2008

3:57 p.m.

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Heidi writes:

BigSky,

I'm guessing you answered the question just as davies would.

This makes me think of the DaVinci Code, where the Catholic church killed anyone who was a threat to their secret of Mary Magdalene being the wife of Jesus and having his child. To them, it was a good thing to kill anyone who would reveal their secret and prove the bible wrong.
November 12, 2008

5:46 p.m.

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HankReardon writes:

agzela,
That's why I'm here. Laugh, and the whole world laughs with you. Cry, and you cry alone.

I'll take laughter.
November 12, 2008

5:48 p.m.

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juddchoate writes:

I think RMN pulled the plug on their website just to stop me from squishing Rickg like a bug.
November 12, 2008

7:13 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

juddchoate....

"Are you challenging Wikipedia, my dear sir? "

Wikipedia? When it is trustworthy enough to be used by intellectually capable content providers, rather than anyone with a computer, THEN it will be a credible source.

How about trying a dictionary instead.

You stated.... "the absence of belief is not a belief."

Check out the dictionary....

Belief (n) -
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. Belief. Not a belief system. Not a religion. A belief.
November 12, 2008

7:20 p.m.

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juddchoate writes:

I don't believe in a God. By definition, I am without belief when it comes to God.
November 12, 2008

7:35 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

cassidy...

A few questions....

" Science isn't an opinion, it's fact. Believing in god is pure faith."

Why do you assume that science and religion are not compatible?

"the Catholic church preaches intolerance of gays. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with any organization that claims it is based on LOVE, FORGIVENESS and TOLERANCE - and they practice NONE of those things."

You're confusing love and tolerance.

Here is an example. A mother learns that her son has murdered someone. She can still LOVE him, but not TOLERATE his actions. The mother still loves her son, even as she condemns his actions in killing a person. The same is true of the Catholic church. Their principles of "love the sinner, but condemn the sin" fits that example perfectly. The Catholic church has the same approach with gays as the mother has with her son. They love the person, but can still condemn the person's actions.

"Jesus did none of that. If you read the bible closely, he only EVER got mad at tax collectors and money lenders for treating people unfairly. Jesus never ONCE practiced intolerance of gays, prostitutes, people of other or no faith. "

Incorrect. He did exactly what the Catholic church does. He loves the sinner, but condemns the sin.

"He practiced love and forgiveness of all people. "

Forgiving someone of an act, does not mean you support the act. It does not mean you approve of the act. Love the sinner, and condemn the sin.

"Today's organized religions are so far from that, I have chosen not to be a part of any of them."

That's not very tolerant.

" I practice love and tolerance, and I need neither a man in a funny robe, incense, money in a basket or grape juice on sundays to help me practice those things."

True. But anyone who looks at religion objectively will see there is more to it than the shallow aspects you're looking at... appearances and food.
November 12, 2008

7:52 p.m.

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joggle writes:

rick: You still seem to act as if I ignored your original argument because it was different. The rest of my post was:

"If God currently exists you would expect him to be observable in some way. If God only existed in the past then that's a different issue altogether. However, since Attila the Hun is only claimed to be a man then it will immediately get more acceptance than God since we don't see God on a daily basis but do see other people. As for whether Hun did all of the things claimed by historical texts, then you would use the same method as historical scholars, which is to first determine the likelihood a historical text is to be accurate (based on other writings of the author and see how well they line up with other authors' accounts) and whether there are other stories relating to Hun by other authors that seem to be independently written and see how well they agree with each other."

However, there is certainly more doubt when talking about a historical figure than a physical property of the universe like sound waves that are easily reproducible and can be studied with repeatable tests with predictable results.

I explained how historical scholars are able to establish their understanding of historical figures (based on accounts in historical texts). There's also occasionally physical evidence to substantiate some accounts.

By now (really by my first reply) it should be obvious that your argument is substantially different than the original person. Each of the examples of the original poster are properties that currently exist and can be observed and repeatedly tested with predictable results (ie, the scientific method). I have a much stronger belief in such properties for that very reason (probably the only stronger beliefs I have are that I exist and must do the necessary activities to sustain life, like eating, sleeping, etc). I have less faith that Attila the Hun existed because, as a historical figure, we cannot directly verify his life. However, that doesn't mean I think his existence is unlikely. As a major figure in history many separate accounts have been written about him that presumably line up well with each other. And considering he's merely claimed to be a man it doesn't violate one's scientific understanding to believe that he did, in fact, exist.

I'm actually not an atheist by the way (I'm really more of a deist), but do strongly value people's ability to think for themselves (as opposed to having it spoon-fed to them by a like-minded individual in a socially superior position).
November 12, 2008

8:17 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

joggle...

"If God currently exists you would expect him to be observable in some way. "

Why should we expect him to be observable? If there is a God that has the ability to create the earth, why would you expect him to possess the physicality of humans?

"If God only existed in the past then that's a different issue altogether. However, since Attila the Hun is only claimed to be a man then it will immediately get more acceptance than God since we don't see God on a daily basis but do see other people. "

The point I'm making is that not being able to observe a person does not mean the person does not exist. You have likely never met a person that I know who lives in Brazil. Does that mean that because you have never seen her, and only have my word on her existence, that she does not exist?

The same is true for a lot of historical figures. You and I have never met Attila the Hun or Julius Caesar. All we have to use in basing our belief and trust in their existence is some historical records in books, statues, etc. We have the same evidence for God. If I am willing to believe that William Wallace, Caesar, Cleopatra, and Attila the Hun all existed on the basis of nothing more than some books, statues, and paintings, then why should I impose a different standard on others?

"However, there is certainly more doubt when talking about a historical figure than a physical property of the universe like sound waves that are easily reproducible and can be studied with repeatable tests with predictable results."

Correct. If God decided to reveal himself tomorrow, then that would be far more convincing proof than exists today. Just as if Attila the Hun came back to life and showed up tomorrow, it would be more convincing proof that he has existed at some point in time as well.

But having more convincing proof of something, does not mean that other proof does not exist. For example, DNA may be decisive in proving that someone murdered a person, but just because DNA is the most convincing proof possible, does not mean that a videotape showing the murder isn't convincing too.
November 12, 2008

8:18 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

joggle... continued...

"I explained how historical scholars are able to establish their understanding of historical figures (based on accounts in historical texts). There's also occasionally physical evidence to substantiate some accounts."

Attila the Hun is a good example of how a lack of physical evidence does not make a person less likely to exist. There is no physical evidence of the existence of Attila the Hun. No grave. No ruins. No statues. All that exist are eyewitness accounts that are now written in books. A lack of physical evidence is NOT proof that he did not exist.

"By now (really by my first reply) it should be obvious that your argument is substantially different than the original person. Each of the examples of the original poster are properties that currently exist and can be observed and repeatedly tested with predictable results (ie, the scientific method). "

The lack of scientific ability to demonstrate God does not mean that God does not exist. At one time, science could not prove that men could fly across the Atlantic ocean. Just because scientists could not prove that it was possible, does not mean that flight across the ocean was impossible.

"I'm actually not an atheist by the way (I'm really more of a deist), but do strongly value people's ability to think for themselves (as opposed to having it spoon-fed to them by a like-minded individual in a socially superior position)."

Good. Free thinking is a key to the ability to learn. And I would say you can thank God for giving you the free will to choose to keep an open mind and learn. If he wanted to prove his existence, he could have easily denied you free will and forced you to believe.
November 12, 2008

8:21 p.m.

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diggtbks writes:

Typical fringe group (the minority) thinking they have been ignored or treated unfairly. Just being spiteful, trying to hurt another group (the majority).

Doesn't matter much. Either you have the Holy Ghost in you or not.

If not, enjoy your years on earth.
November 12, 2008

8:36 p.m.

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WHATRIGHTS writes:

A question from above bigsky....11:26 post....It is never that God does not forgive, but say you have a child who murders some of your other children, when you try to reach out he spats in your face then mutilates another one of your children. Then what? I would hope for the well being of your other children you would put that child in a hospital strapped to a bed, you still love him yes, but you cannot have them destroying the rest of your family.

When that child turns to you one day and says they are sorry and will change their ways and stop hurting and torturing, you believe them.....you open your arms and bring them back in and your faith in them is restored because you truly want to believe you created good.
November 12, 2008

8:49 p.m.

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WHATRIGHTS writes:

Oh add to that please, then you forgive them, bring them back with open arms, then they do demonstrate the same behavior, this time they tell you they hate you, you are not their parents, they don't need you nor want you, you are stupid and don't exist, everything you built and gave them they have squandered....can you forgive, open your arms and take them back again and again, really? GOD does!
November 12, 2008

9:02 p.m.

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Heidi writes:

WHATRIGHTS,

And then what happens when that child dies with an unforgiven mortal sin? Do you believe that child suffers for all eternity?
November 12, 2008

9:14 p.m.

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bassplayer writes:

Gonzopozo writes:

You can believe anything you want. I don't care, why should I?

I just know that if you don't believe in God, you'd better be right.
Eternity is a long time.

Like playing the Lotto. Got to play if you want to win. BS reason to not be a freethinker.
November 12, 2008

9:17 p.m.

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jay writes:

"You keep claiming that people are saying "you cannot be free from my religion". You can't provide ANY evidence that anyone said that in this entire thread. None. Zero. Nada."

nope.

never did.

this is a strawman argument.

again...i think you're a little confused about what constitutes a "strawman argument"

"if you want to join commknightj when he says in his "wish for Freedom FROM Religion rather than freedom of reigion.", then you can join in any place on earth where there is freedom FROM religion. That's not the USA"

-----rickybobby, 11/12 10:39 am

so...again....can you tell us why americans should not be free from your religion, rb?
November 12, 2008

9:24 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

jay...

How many times do you need to have the obvious pointed out to you?

There is NO reference to "freedom FROM religion" anywhere in the US Constitution.

Understand yet? If not, try reading the Constitution. For once.
November 12, 2008

9:51 p.m.

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WHATRIGHTS writes:

Heidi,
I believe that since we were equated in the word child, being children of God, in Bigskys' post, said child would have no place with God, for this believer that is eternal suffering. Just like people have their own "hell" on earth in which they create then so it makes sense that they can create their own hell for themselves after this life. I do not believe in the literal meaning of hell, fire and brimstone and gnashing of teeth. The Bible is full of parables and imagery that was to paint a picture and subject to interpretation. That interpretation and what people take away from the Bible is meant to be taken differently by each believer. I enjoy a church, any church of any religion to understand their interpretation. Maybe I can take something away that I can use to help someone else or understand someone else.

I am a simple minded person, my simple mind says daily to treat others as I want to be treated, cast no stones, cast no judgement shall I be judged 10X that measurement, I am by far clean from sin, just as nobody is perfect, only One is perfect....it's truly a mystery to me why people discourage lessons of the Bible, there is nothing in there that is hurtful. New Testament, which is the foundation to Christianity, are stories and lessons and they are all good, for anybody who has read them if there was not a moral to the story that if heeded to wouldn't make this world a better place, please share......
November 12, 2008

9:52 p.m.

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infidel91 writes:

Wow. If the mere failure to accept an extraordinary claim (that the universe was created by an imperceptible omnipotent being possessing neither mass nor location) is itself a belief, I don't know how I'm going to keep all these "beliefs" in my head . . .

I believe there are no flying pigs (I'm an aporcithopterist) . . . I believe there are no Dairy Queens in outer space (alacticgalacticist) . . . I believe there is no such thing as the "Beer Fairy" (afermentedmaltpixicist) . . . I believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist (apastaterriblicist) . . . I believe that [insert preposterous thing that you believe doesn't exist, here] . . .

Doesn't it make more sense to say that it is an affirmative claim that requires evidence, and not the other way around?
November 13, 2008

7:39 a.m.

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blu_boi writes:

If christians (and other religious fanatics) weren’t so eager to legislate the hate their bible (and other archaic tomes) preach non-christians (and other freethinkers) wouldn’t have to spend money on billboards.
November 13, 2008

7:41 a.m.

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Eli writes:

"I believe there is no such thing as the "Beer Fairy" (afermentedmaltpixicist)"

Blasphemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
November 13, 2008

7:59 a.m.

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infidel91 writes:

It is not heresy. I will not recant!
November 13, 2008

8:06 a.m.

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jay writes:

you've said that we as americans can't be free from your religion, rickybobby.

and now you're supporting that "theory" of yours by saying that the constitution doesn't allow us to be free from your supernatural beliefs.

interesting viewpoint.

ignorant, but entertaining.
November 13, 2008

10:43 a.m.

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Heidi writes:

WHATRIGHTS,

Thanks for answering my question. I also believe that there are many valuable lessons in the bible and you don't have to believe in God or the existance of Jesus to benefit from those lessons. Of course, it is not to be taken literally.
November 13, 2008

10:47 a.m.

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ruckus writes:

W T F W J D?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwK...
November 13, 2008

12:05 p.m.

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thebrokenforum writes:

Hey, man...i freaking believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, ok?! I pray to him every night and he hears my prayers with his telepathy. He sent his son "Spagettios" to earth to die for our sins, guy. One day, if I'm conservative enough, I will be beamed to the magical, galactic Dairy Queen in the sky. Hallelujah! Praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Lol.

http://brokenswordpublications.com
November 13, 2008

12:39 p.m.

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infidel91 writes:

brokenforum:

Us apastaterriblicists are sick and tired of you noodly fanatics trying to shove your pasta down our throats!
November 13, 2008

1:55 p.m.

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BigSky182 writes:

But it MUST exist!!

It has a church:
http://www.venganza.org/

It's in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_S...

There are statues in it's honor outside courthouses:
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/21/...

It even has it's own WEB GAME!!
http://www.venganza.org/games/index_l...
November 13, 2008

8:46 p.m.

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WHATRIGHTS writes:

Unbelievable. You have the right to speak your hate and offend the very senses of others while spouting your mouth about the Constitution and your Freedoms.

You can feel however you want, believe however you want and in whatever you want.....but your total disregard for others demonstrates your own hypocrisy....90% of people celebrate the birth of the Christ every year, I'd wager that includes most of you hate filled posters here, is that your greed for gifts or your hypocrisy shining through....I will pray for you as Jesus prayed for the Jews "for they know not what they do"!

God Bless you all!
November 13, 2008

8:52 p.m.

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WHATRIGHTS writes:

And may He have mercy on your souls!

Home › News › Local News

Billboard: "Don't believe in God? - You are not alone."

By John C. Ensslin, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Published November 11, 2008 at 6:49 p.m.

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