Aurora officer shoots woman in the leg
By Bill Scanlon, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Originally published 06:23 a.m., May 22, 2008
Updated 12:23 a.m., May 23, 2008
Melinda Espinoza
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An Aurora police officer shot a woman in the leg late Wednesday after she allegedly wielded a gun outside a home.
No one else was injured, and the woman was taken to a local hospital, where she was treated and released into police custody.
Aurora police got the call at 9:55 p.m., police spokeswoman Shannon Lacy said. A man said his estranged wife was inside his home in the 2200 block of South Waco Street, had a gun and was threatening to kill herself.
Officers tried to subdue the woman, identified as Melinda Espinoza, 24, but she produced a handgun, Lacy said.
At least one shot was fired by an officer, Lacy said.
May 22, 2008
6:42 a.m.
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MRSTTYLER writes:
Glade it was just in the leg.
May 22, 2008
6:46 a.m.
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Alive writes:
It was her lucky day. She got shot just like in the movies. Still has jail time awaitin' though. <sarcasm>Probably just a big misunderstanding.</sarchasm>.
May 22, 2008
6:49 a.m.
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Buckwheat writes:
Nice shot. Looks like a Win / Win situation to me. Could have used more info though, how long did they negotiate? (sp). Obviously she has some mental issues, i hope she can get some help.
May 22, 2008
6:56 a.m.
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breckrider writes:
if she was in denver she would be dead. funny how an aurora cop shoots the leg of a woman with a gun, one time, but denver cops shoot a man with a knife 6 times in the upper body.
May 22, 2008
7:05 a.m.
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alwaysright writes:
Can't help it.
Never seen someone shoot a knife 6 times
May 22, 2008
7:10 a.m.
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breckrider writes:
clint eastwood did in hang em high. and it's snowing again in the mountains so i'm confused.
May 22, 2008
7:13 a.m.
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mexcellent writes:
Jude Hasslicher......that's a nice Puerto Rican name
May 22, 2008
7:13 a.m.
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jason45 writes:
Hopefully the cop will be disciplined .... for not placing a couple of shots to the chest and/or head. The woman WAS armed and outside. She could have killed someone besides herself.
May 22, 2008
7:31 a.m.
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dcolon47 writes:
Im Puerto Rican and I never heard a Rican with a name like Hasslicher
May 22, 2008
7:32 a.m.
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T1anda writes:
Sounds like they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Hope the woman gets some help!!!
May 22, 2008
7:35 a.m.
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artstarzz writes:
Loll . Did a Nazi meeting just let out ? I hear the Nazi are not using brown boots anymore . The kids that are joining are to dumb to tie there shoes . Happy to see the numbers are dropping .
May 22, 2008
7:37 a.m.
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steel writes:
This cop needs some time on the practice range.
May 22, 2008
7:38 a.m.
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dcolon47 writes:
Now the tax payers have to support her in jail. Bad cop
May 22, 2008
7:46 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
Posted by breckrider on May 22, 2008 at 6:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
if she was in denver she would be dead. funny how an aurora cop shoots the leg of a woman with a gun, one time, but denver cops shoot a man with a knife 6 times in the upper body.
Coming from someone who has ZERO experience in this field, your statement is full of FAIL! No No... Epic Fail!
She got lucky and the cop is a BAD shot. End of story...
May 22, 2008
8:09 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
Denver... Aurora...what's the difference?!
May 22, 2008
8:13 a.m.
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dcolon47 writes:
Posted by Heidi on May 22, 2008 at 8:09 a.m.
Denver... Aurora...what's the difference?!
Amazing, they aren't even spelled the same!
May 22, 2008
8:13 a.m.
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AWM writes:
Sounds like the cop missed! Now we can pay to 'rehabilitate' her!
May 22, 2008
8:13 a.m.
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breckrider writes:
well uh actually there marine grunt, wtf do know about me? just curious.and it wasn't a statement degrading any cops, just a simple observance. all the criminals in the U.S. could die today and i would not shed a tear, and they could take all the illegals with them and i would cry even less.
May 22, 2008
8:20 a.m.
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JR303 writes:
Ok here goes my theorie last weekend on saturday afternoon a man was in his front yard holding a KNIFE this man dropped the Knife and got shot 8 times and was killed,
know this ladie had a GUN and was only shot once in the leg she survived
my question is why did the man from saturday have to get shot so many times by so many officers.
RACISM
May 22, 2008
8:21 a.m.
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Dick_Tater writes:
"Denver... Aurora...what's the difference?!"
I'll walk around Denver after dark.
May 22, 2008
8:24 a.m.
redpoppie writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 22, 2008
8:25 a.m.
steel writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 22, 2008
8:27 a.m.
MarineGrunt writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 22, 2008
8:29 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
303...how to you jump to the conclusion of racism? Maybe the leg of the woman the the part exposed to the officer when he shot. Who knows, you werent there. What do you do for a living? I'm sure it's nothing dangerous that would put you in a life or death decision. The Denver and Aurora officers did a good job in both situations given the facts released, even though the results were different. All situations are different and will rarely have the same outcome. Get over you RACISM crap...it's a worn out record.
May 22, 2008
8:32 a.m.
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mt writes:
303 How do you know the guy dropped the knife? His family said so? Pull your head out of your.... hat. A guy with a knife at 25' away is just as dangerous as a guy with a gun at 50'. Both could kill you easily. The idiot was coming at cops with a knife. Put that in your butt and take your head out. He had a knife and was charging the cops. He did not have a knife to cut the cake at his daughters party. Perhaps the cops should have just left and hoped the situation would diffuse itself or maybe dirty harry should have rushed the scum bag and risked his own life to save a dirt bag from doing something stupid. Get off your high horse and quit believing everything your hear from a grieving family hoping to turn a tragedy into a payoff. The woman with the gun should be dead now also. Cops aren't taught to shoot to wound someone. The cop was a bad shot. Now he and the city will be sued by her and it will cost everyone more money because of it.
May 22, 2008
8:32 a.m.
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steel writes:
303... isn't that the moniker for one of those local gangs? That explains the borderline illiteracy shown in your post.
May 22, 2008
8:38 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
To clarify, cops are trained to "stop the harmful action" not to wound or kill.
May 22, 2008
8:40 a.m.
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Squatch writes:
My point was proven they are able ato shoot not to kill. I guess she was dealing with a well trained officer who happened to spend a lot of time at the shooting range.
Thanks to the idiot that said it was the 2nd mexican this week for your sake i hope she didnt change her maiden name when she got married to her husband spanidsh last name.
May 22, 2008
8:42 a.m.
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alwaysright writes:
Gettin pretty deep here.
You should go to the headline where this S U V killed a 5 year old
I'm telling you these cars are getting too smart.
May 22, 2008
8:45 a.m.
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EZBakeOven writes:
Police are NOT trained to shoot people in the leg - she is lucky her death wish was not fulfilled.
May 22, 2008
8:49 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
Fascists:
Alive
hasslicher_jude
steel
dcolon47
MarineGrunt
Heidi
AWM
sheepherder
"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]
The list will grow throughout the day.
May 22, 2008
8:49 a.m.
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breckrider writes:
i'm ex army ranger. i know a bit more than you might think. i was simply commenting on the different officer's actions, not on the situation itself.denver cops have a different mentality when it come to lethal force than most police agencies in this country do.i don't think denver cops are trained very well in the use of deadly force. they shoot too many un-armed citizens, and get away with it. remember the old man laying in bed with his can of coke? but on that note i feel much safer in denver at night than i ever would in aurora.
May 22, 2008
8:52 a.m.
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mrNiceGuy writes:
It's sad that this cop, who made the morally correct decision to first try and use non-lethal force, is put on administrative leave. On the other hand, two veteran cops (less than a decade of experience between the two) are still workin' the beat after filling a guy with lead in front of his family.
Also, it was DPD that wanted to put the hottie female cop on admin leave for racy photos taken of her on her myspace page. And there's the cop who shot kids with toy guns to teach them a lesson was forced to resign (I forgot what town). Then we have the sergeant who beat the kid, charges filed days later. The officer that shot a guy in his chest (who was attacking him from at least 10 feet away according to coroner) in the road rage incident - I forget where he was from, but he got off scott free.
Now that I think about it, I guess it is in the best interest for officers to act irrationally. You kill, you keep your job; you use less than lethal force (or look hot in a thong) and you're working mall security.
May 22, 2008
8:52 a.m.
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steel writes:
Re:knowwhat's post...
Hey guys, when's our next meeting? I forgot to write it on my calendar.
May 22, 2008
8:54 a.m.
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mt writes:
Squatch in a perfect world the cops could shoot the knife or the gun out of the perps hand but then again in a perfect world idiots would not exist. Do you think that getting shot in the leg or arm will make you drop the gun? What if she would have fired off a few shots after she was hit in the leg and then killed the cop or a child in the next house. Who would everyone be pointing fingers at then? Then again if she would have not been brandishing the gun in an attempt to hurt someone she would not have been shot at all. Superman can disarm criminals without worrying about being hurt but hopefully you know he only exists in the movies. Perhaps all of you that think the cop is in the wrong should become a cop and fix it.
May 22, 2008
8:55 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
breckrider,
I guess that makes you a fascist, too, according to KnowWhat.
Thanks for the explanation.
May 22, 2008
8:57 a.m.
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Dick_Tater writes:
I think it was careless to do this. You don't fire into the air to scare, you don't shoot to mame. This left her with all her abilities and could have easily sent her over the edge. Hurting her is all the instigation she needed to start shooting back. By not taking her out, they put themselves and the public at risk.
May 22, 2008
9:01 a.m.
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American100 writes:
Cop shoots to kill, he's a bastard, cop aims to main, he's a bastard.
Some posters are NEVER happy.
Valencia was a loser and a menace to society. Long record, repeat offender, good riddence.
We don't know enough about this winner or her behavior to say the cops shouldn't of shot.
I just feel in the Valencia case they did a GOOD JOB!
May 22, 2008
9:03 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
Fascists:
Alive
hasslicher_jude
steel
dcolon47
MarineGrunt
Heidi
AWM
sheepherder
American100 - (un-American100)
"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]
The list will grow throughout the day.
May 22, 2008
9:07 a.m.
ezekiel777 writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 22, 2008
9:07 a.m.
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CRODRIQUEZ writes:
I think that a lot of you people on this comment board need to take yourselves to Craig's List Rant & Rave section.
May 22, 2008
9:07 a.m.
stopanthonyromero writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 22, 2008
9:16 a.m.
MarineGrunt writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 22, 2008
9:17 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
I've noticed a certain type of person can only argue with name-calling rather than actual points of view. I guess it's easier to call someone a jerk than it is to prove that they're NOT a jerk.
I'd say what "certain type of person" that is, but then that would be name calling, and I certainly wouldn't want to do that ;)
Alwaysright - I've never seen anyone shoot a knife six times either (hehe).
May 22, 2008
9:18 a.m.
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OneCreek writes:
The Denver Police should take their marksmanship training from the Aurora P.D. There is a tendency to center mass twice or more whether "suspects" are armed or not. The fact of the matter is that the victims or subjects of police shootings are citizens first and foremost, and the mentality of too many police forces is that it is an "Us versus Them" situation all the time.
Defusing by conversation can be plenty effective. Screaming and yelling with multiple officers involved at subjects already agitated for whatever reason, only serves to increase the tension of an already deteriorated situation.
Good Lord. How many times have we seen videos of police tasering citizens for not "obeying" (groveling) to the police sufficiently to please their egos? Nowadays, you can be tasered or shot for simply exercising what used to be considered "inalienable rights".
Frankly, the officer involved ought to get a medal for not killing the subject, a clear abberation in a society that is rushing headlong into a "Police State" as it is. As a society, we are being trained to "turn in our neighbors" for anything and everything. That is how the Stasi worked. The society at large is becoming sociopathically inclined against itself, all in favor of an ever expanding State.
And why is it so many posters immediately start commenting on the race of the individual involved? The crime, the real crime that is bankrupting this country is a "White Thing". Actuaries, accountants and C.E.O.'s, let alone the sycophants in High Office, regardless of party. Commodity speculators and Oil Companies raking in tens of billions while we "commoners" suffer at the gas pump and everywhere else. These are the nexuses of the true criminality in this country. It's the "big crime" that enslaves us we either ignore or are too blind to see. A "White Thing", and I'm a "honky" from Greenwood Village and see it clearly. Good luck!
May 22, 2008
9:19 a.m.
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vudumom writes:
alwaysright, that was funny. Thanks for my morning laugh. LOL
May 22, 2008
9:20 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
I didn't know calling someone a fascist was name calling. I think of it as categorizing. Now calling someone an idiot on the otherhand would be Childish. All that have been listed fit the bill. And haven't read enough posts form missmilehi to categorize her but before days end I'm sure she'll end up on the list too.
May 22, 2008
9:21 a.m.
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jconder45 writes:
American100- Yeah, we should go hunt down everyone with a criminal record, they're all "losers" who deserve to die. (sarcasm).
May 22, 2008
9:25 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
"didn't know calling someone a fascist was name calling."
LOL.. did you even read your own dribble? Good lord man...
I didn't know throwing a rock was called rock throwing!!!
May 22, 2008
9:25 a.m.
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steel writes:
Knowwhat..."I didn't know calling someone a fascist was name calling." Uh...what?
May 22, 2008
9:27 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
Have you read the definition of fascist? And I thought you were an Athiest Grunt, now we praise the lord? You are one confused man indeed.
May 22, 2008
9:27 a.m.
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McGowdog writes:
Posted by redpoppie on May 22, 2008 at 8:24 a.m.
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Posted by steel on May 22, 2008 at 8:25 a.m.
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Posted by MarineGrunt on May 22, 2008 at 8:27 a.m.
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
HaHaHa! You guys ought to just hook up and discuss this over coffee.
May 22, 2008
9:30 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
fas·cist Audio Help
Pronunciation[fash-ist]
–noun 1. a person who believes in or sympathizes with fascism.
2. (often initial capital letter) a member of a fascist movement or party.
3. a person who is dictatorial or has extreme right-wing views.
–adjective 4. Also, fa·scis·tic
[fuh-shis-tik] .
It fascista, equiv. to fasc(io) (see fascism) + -ista -ist]
—Related forms
fa·scis·ti·cal·ly, adverb
I don't find it to be name calling.
May 22, 2008
9:30 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
Yes... because the word "lord" has NEVER been used for anything other then a religious figure!
Damn, you got your thinkin' cap on today, huh, bubba?
I will take confused over stupid any day! Dumb is to the bone.. brother!!
May 22, 2008
9:32 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
I like to think of if as.....well like Bruce called Mexicans uneducated peasants......something I beleive you all defended.
Thanks for playing.
May 22, 2008
9:32 a.m.
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steel writes:
How about that... you call someone a moron and they delete it. But call someone a racist fascist and RMN ignores it.
May 22, 2008
9:34 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Marine - throwing a rock is simply relocating it, not throwing it. DUH ;)
KnowWhat, why must people be categorized? Are we all just labels and categories? I thought that's what we are all up in arms about - labels and categories...illegal this, legal that, victim, criminal, shooter, stabber, citizen, alien, girl, boy, liberal, conservative...I thought we are all just humans? Isn't that what so many people keep arguing about? The HUMAN side to all these shootings?
What category do you put yourself in? Just curious.
May 22, 2008
9:34 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
"I don't find it to be name calling." So there...
And you stomp your feet when you don;t get your way, huh?
May 22, 2008
9:36 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
The term was "illiterate peasants".
Illiterate, as in non-English speaking.
Peasant:
1: a member of a European class of persons tilling the soil as small landowners or as laborers; also : a member of a similar class elsewhere
2: a usually uneducated person of low social status
He was categorizing them as you are categorizing us.
May 22, 2008
9:37 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
"like to think of if as.....well like Bruce called Mexicans uneducated peasants......something I beleive you all defended.
Thanks for playing."
Too bad ignorance is no against the law. You would be in the RMN's a lot!
Thanks for playing? What? Do you even think of what your going to type or do you allow the Force to do that for you?
Does your mommy know your using the computer this much?
May 22, 2008
9:43 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Oh and, I never said anyone here specifically name calling - I used general terms. People who weren't name calling probably didn't feel guilt or get defensive about it.
Just sayin'.
May 22, 2008
9:53 a.m.
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Roxie07 writes:
I hope now that she got shot in the leg she will realize that a bullet is harmful to your health and reconsider taking her life.
May 22, 2008
9:55 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Wow! I have NEVER been called fascist before! Been called alot of thaings, but not that! I'm proud to be grouped with MarineGrunt though!
May 22, 2008
9:57 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
Me? Gee whizzo, Sheep! You made me blush...
Thank you, sir.
May 22, 2008
10:02 a.m.
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Ashley writes:
I'm glad the officer was able to resolve the situation without killing anyone. I agree with the earlier posts; damned if they do, damned if they don't. And really guys, can't we all just get along?
May 22, 2008
10:02 a.m.
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RickyLee writes:
Doesn'tKnowWhatYou'reTalkingAbout;
I'm waiting for you to catagorize yourself, or are you afraid to?
May 22, 2008
10:04 a.m.
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RickyLee writes:
Doesn'tKnow....
If you were Native American, your name would PoopInHisHead.
May 22, 2008
10:06 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
RickyLee,
He is a categorizer. With no sense of direction or discretion.
May 22, 2008
10:08 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
It's weird that he's making a list of people. Kinda scary, actually...
May 22, 2008
10:09 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
Be careful, missmilehi, you are soon to be on the list. Is it an extermination list?
May 22, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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RickyLee writes:
Doesn't scare me a bit, I shoot VERY straight.
I'd guess Grunt's a pretty good shot as well....
May 22, 2008
10:14 a.m.
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Buckwheat writes:
Know What Yo Be Talkin' Bout
OK, I feel left out, what's wrong with me? I speak my mind, I exercise my right to freedom of speech, I believe in the death penalty, I believe that a person has the right to use deadly force to protect what is their's. So-o-o-o-o-o, why can't I be on the list, Darn!!
May 22, 2008
10:15 a.m.
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dcolon47 writes:
Posted by ezekiel777 on May 22, 2008 at 9:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
...and now for something completely different.... a white woman who was NOT KILLED by the cops.
gee... somebody said lethal force is necessary in these instances...even worse here because she had a gun...not a knife, was not drunk, nor a diabetic, nor hispanic, nor in denver.
a hispanic dies... but a white woman lives.... go figure
I do believe this woman is hispanic also
May 22, 2008
10:18 a.m.
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Ztliano writes:
How could the cops miss her head and accidentally shoot her leg? I want my Aurora tax dollars to work!!!!!!!!!!
May 22, 2008
10:25 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Yea MarineGrunt (and RickyLee I'm assuming)...there are people who like to "talk about it" and there are people who have "done it." My experience has shown the talkers have no idea what they speak of, and just hate it when the "doers" show their knowledge. This tends to cause the "talkers" to resort to name calling or political leaning. I have a feeling we are the "doers" so I'll get grouped with you guys anyday!
May 22, 2008
10:26 a.m.
Suggest removal
American100 writes:
Posted by jconder45 on May 22, 2008 at 9:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"American100- Yeah, we should go hunt down everyone with a criminal record, they're all "losers" who deserve to die. (sarcasm)."
They didn't have to hunt him down. He came at them with a knife after HIS daughter called 911.
May 22, 2008
10:30 a.m.
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davies writes:
I'm going with the 'pear-shaped body' theory. That is, she could have the body type where her upper legs presented the biggest target area.
Don't know if that makes me a fascist or not.
Hasslicher, I knew that was you. What does hasslicher mean?
May 22, 2008
10:32 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
If Doesn'tKnow won't put you on "The List", I will! Welcome!
May 22, 2008
10:35 a.m.
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steel writes:
He's makin' a list, and checking it twice...
May 22, 2008
10:36 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Davies...very funny!
May 22, 2008
10:37 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
I wonder if Melinda Espinoza would have made the list...
May 22, 2008
10:42 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Or perhaps the cops DID aim for her head, but sadly it was close to her legs on account of just being lodged in her rear.
May 22, 2008
10:42 a.m.
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davies writes:
She looks kind of scary - I wouldn't call her anything to her face except "Ma'am".
May 22, 2008
10:50 a.m.
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steel writes:
Good one missmilehi. I can't believe you haven't made our list yet.
May 22, 2008
10:50 a.m.
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Buckwheat writes:
Yea!!! I'am on a list!! Thanks Heidi!!
May 22, 2008
10:52 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
steel - I KNOW! You guys are having so much fun on the list and I'm left here categorized OFF the list with "you know who"...
WOE IS ME!
May 22, 2008
10:52 a.m.
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Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
KWYTA is making a list for their first annual "NOTHINGNess and can-just-walk-away-from-my-computer" party.
May 22, 2008
10:52 a.m.
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steel writes:
"My name's in the phone book! I'm somebody!"
May 22, 2008
10:53 a.m.
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Monica030 writes:
For everyone who is wondering why the cop didn't kill the woman:
LOOK at her picture. Does she LOOK like an Espinoza?? No. Clearly, the cop didn't know her last name before shooting. If he did, he WOULD have killed her.
And all you people who believe anyone with a Mexican-sounding last name (illegal or not) deserves to die would be able to have a good day.
One must have a miserable existence to take pleasure in the pain and misery of others.
May 22, 2008
10:56 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
Monica, that's just plain silly!
May 22, 2008
10:57 a.m.
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steel writes:
Monica, give the racism card a rest already.
May 22, 2008
10:58 a.m.
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davies writes:
Monica030: As it is, I guess only the cop-haters are able to have a good day. Do you really feel entitled to say that all cops in general would have deliberately killed this woman rather than wound her, if they had known her surname?
May 22, 2008
10:58 a.m.
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Squatch writes:
I have to agree with Heidi on this one.
May 22, 2008
11 a.m.
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Monica030 writes:
I can't give the racism card a rest. It is clearly in full play, and not because of me.
May 22, 2008
11:02 a.m.
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davies writes:
Well if you can't lick 'em, join 'em!
May 22, 2008
11:03 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Monica - big news, we're all gonna die, regardless of our names, etc, etc...
Some people just speed up the inevitable by being stupid, and it's no one's fault except their own.
May 22, 2008
11:04 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
So Monica, you take no personal responsibility for what you just said?
May 22, 2008
11:04 a.m.
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Monica030 writes:
No, not every single cop would have killed her deliberately upon knowing her surname. But enough to be significant.
I really don't hate cops. Just the bad ones.
May 22, 2008
11:06 a.m.
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davies writes:
Heidi, I think 'personal responsibility' may be a fascist expectation.
May 22, 2008
11:07 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Do you hate the bad PEOPLE too? What about them, Mon? Or is just "bad" authority that you have a problem with?
So were the cops bad here? No one died. Everyone was all crazy that someone died the other day, and this time no one did.
May 22, 2008
11:08 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
Monica, Suppose he knew her name, plus she looked white. Perhaps that's why he aimed for her iliac artery, instead of directly at her heart. That was some quick thinking!
May 22, 2008
11:09 a.m.
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Monica030 writes:
I take full responsibility for everything I say, Heidi.
And I do know we will all die eventually. That woman should be dead today for pulling a gun on a cop, and I honestly think it was her lucky day--because she looked white. I could be completely wrong, and I HOPE I am, but the sad part is that there is a possibility that I'm not wrong.
May 22, 2008
11:10 a.m.
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OneCreek writes:
Fascism has always been considered a "Rightist" philosophy, "bropous" and the intellectual lightweight Jonah Goldberg's arguments to the contrary. Without his Mommy and Clinton's staining of Monica Lewinsky's dress, we would have been spared his senseless sophomoric penings.
Mussolini created fascism, and argued in effect that the political phenomenon was extremely nationalistic, and to paraphrase, "A blending of Big Business and government, best referred to as 'corporatism'".
Obviously, when the two early models came to be, that of Italy and Germany, "race" had everything to do with Fascism. The racial "nationalism" spoken of by Mussolini was taken to an even greater degree by Adolph Hitler. Apartheit South Africa and the modern state of Israel would be current examples of this philosophy.
During the 1930's in the U.S., an attempt was planned by fascist-leaning corporatists to overthrow F.D.R., and they approached retired Marine General Smedley Butler to lead the military part of the planned coup. Butler instead informed the government, and the coup then failed to materialize. And with but a slight jarring of memory, the early and mid-twentieth century in the U.S. was characterized economically by wholly caucasian control.
Available "on-line" is a short tract by General Butler, titled "War is a Racket", and is well worth the brief read. He argues that as a Marine, his task was basically to serve as the enforcement arm of U.S.Corporate power abroad, not recognizing until near-retirement he was but a tool for the United Fruit Company in Central America, the Aluminum cartel in South America, and other U.S. "corporate interests" then beginning to straddle the globe. He laughed at the supposed power of crooks like Capone, who held perhaps five counties in his grip, where conversely, corporate power held entire countries in their grips. What was bad then is far worse now. Witness the Oil Cartel on Capital Hill yesterday.
It is unfortunate that some posters seem to go out of their way to either spread absolute disinformation, or are ignorant of where on the political spectrum certain philosophies lie. Even High School political science classes from the late 1920's to this day have always, and correctly so, identified fascism as a "right wing" political philosophy. Sadly, some who live life "challenged" apparently graduated from our declining public educational institutions unable to even grasp the more simple aspects of their required political science classes. Alas, so goes the one-great Republic turned Empire.
May 22, 2008
11:10 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
davies, put me at the top of the list then!
May 22, 2008
11:12 a.m.
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steel writes:
So there!
May 22, 2008
11:12 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Mon: "And all you people who believe anyone with a Mexican-sounding last name (illegal or not) deserves to die would be able to have a good day."
Mon: "That woman should be dead today for pulling a gun on a cop"
MONICA! You're split personalities are showing.
May 22, 2008
11:14 a.m.
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steel writes:
One Creek, how can you catagorize Israel as facist? Please explain that bigoted sentence.
May 22, 2008
11:16 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Oh I missed one!
Mon: "One must have a miserable existence to take pleasure in the pain and misery of others."
Then turn around and say that she should be dead today. Tsk tsk.
May 22, 2008
11:18 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
(oops, and of course I meant "your" not "you're" - darn this emotional typing!)
May 22, 2008
11:19 a.m.
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Monica030 writes:
Split personalities? How's that? I don't think an entire group of people deserve to die based on their last names. I also think people shouldn't pull guns on cops. I don't see how these two statements conflict. Please enlighten me.
May 22, 2008
11:20 a.m.
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happymike44 writes:
Looks like someone had a gump day going.Stupid is as stupid does so that pretty much explains how the woman got to this point on that day.So the police are trained to not shoot unless they are in immediate peril.The officers were probably in fear for their lives.These guy had a direct point to shoot at.The other guy was drunk and refused to comply with the officers instructions.Now ou know the difference in these two incidents.Plus the lady was having a raging case of P.M.S.lol lmao
May 22, 2008
11:23 a.m.
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Monica030 writes:
I did say she should be dead. Maybe it wasn't a nice thing to say. My bad.
But, in my defense, the article did say she was suicidal.
May 22, 2008
11:25 a.m.
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davies writes:
One Creek, that was an interesting post. I think I detect a left-to-far-left perspective in your comments about Israel and corporate power. I was taught that corporate and economic power was part of the concept of pluralism, meaning that the government does not have control of all power. Like any other type of power, economic power can be wielded for good, bad or indifferent.
May 22, 2008
11:27 a.m.
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davies writes:
Heidi: you can be at the top of my fascist personal responsibility list, no matter what hey_jude says.
May 22, 2008
11:39 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
I may be on several lists by now.
Monica, Thor's got a very large hammer.
May 22, 2008
11:49 a.m.
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JMac writes:
Heidi,
handsome_jew said that he has a wenig nudel, not a mighty hammer, sorry for you..... ;-(
handsome_jew, I'm with you I hope that La Raza is crushed and dismantled, but before they are, La Raza should wipe out the white supremacist movement. Then we would rid the country of two of the ugliest racist groups that are around, it's a win/win for all.
May 22, 2008
noon
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JMac writes:
"it's just that the meatballs are so big it makes it look that way"
Sorry to hear about the testicular cancer handsome_jew ;-( There is an upside to it though, you won't be able to procreate.
May 22, 2008
12:09 p.m.
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RickyLee writes:
hasslicher jude.....doesn't that mean "a$$-licking Jew", or something along those lines?
Yikes!(if I'm right)
May 22, 2008
12:11 p.m.
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OneCreek writes:
steel, then davies: The sentence regarding Israel is not bigoted. There are 5.4 million Jews in Israel and 1.8 million Arabs. The Arabs, though nominally citizens, do not enjoy the rights nor economic opportunity available to Jewish citizens. They are literally walled in, forced through checkpoints daily, and in effect, make the situation American Blacks experienced in the Jim Crow South a comparative paradise.
Israel exists soley for the benefit of a single religio-ethnic group, and all its laws and customs are crafted for their benefit. You cannot find a more fiercely "nationalistic" nation on the planet, and most of its industries are tied directly to the government. That's pretty well fascist.
Peculiarly, the circumstance is far more widely discussed there, than in the U.S. The second leading Israeli Daily Ha'aretz frequently bemoans the situation, while in the U.S. it is wholly ignored. Tis'a sad state of affairs, as the Israeli government is dominated by rightist extremists, often at odds with the wishes of their population at large.
davies- Pluralism means the toleration of varied social, religious, and ethnic groups within a larger culture. The U.S. Government was constructed to ensure freedom for its citizenry, not to protect corporate power. Initially, corporations were chartered for specific and short-term functions, such as the construction of canals and bridges. Their reach was minimal.
All this changed in 1886, when the Supreme Court ruled in "Santa Clara County v. the Southern Pacific R.R. Company" (without argument on the point)that "The defendant(S.P.R.R.) corporations are persons within the intent of the clause of section 1 of the 14th amendment to the Constitution of the United States."
If a corporation is a "person" as defined by the Court, is this not a violation of the 13th Amendment? This alleged "person" is "owned" by shareholders, therefore the "person" must be considered a slave. Correct?
This decision changed history, giving rise to corporatism as we know it today. I contend it is out of control. Efforts to stymie this Creature by the government have been cast aside, as the "Trust-Busting" laws of the last century were dismantled in favor of consolidation. Consolidation means strength politically, as well as economically.
The political equation is of even greater concern. Effectively, the economic might of the Corporation now buys the candidates, not the "flesh and blood" citizen. This is not a "leftist" perspective, its the perspective of one who values freedom. How can we expect effective regulation of corporate excess if the government is "owned" by the corporations? Whether candidate, office-holder, or a bureaucracy; they are now all subject to corporate desires and wishes. This should concern us all. The leadership won't change it because that is how they have achieved their status. We have a "Parliament of Whores", bought and paid for by corporate dollars.
May 22, 2008
12:17 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Mon: "Split personalities? How's that? I don't think an entire group of people deserve to die based on their last names. I also think people shouldn't pull guns on cops. I don't see how these two statements conflict. Please enlighten me."
What "entire group of people"? Did I miss something in this article, or any other, that said an "entire group of people" were dead because of their last names? Hmm, the articles I read were about two lawbreakers who had the cops called on them for their stupid behavior.
Your statements conflict because on one hand you say no one should die, and they you say that that woman should have died. Your words, not mine. You say that she didn't die because of the paleness of her skin, then you turn around and say that she should have died.
Which is it? NO one should die, or just certain members of certain groups of people should die? I'm just trying to clearly understand what your point of view is because your comments are so contradictory.
I'm sure the police really stand there and ponder these things while maniacs are waving knives and guns at them.
May 22, 2008
12:18 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
OneCreek, great way to put it!
"We have a "Parliament of Whores", bought and paid for by corporate dollars"
May 22, 2008
12:22 p.m.
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steel writes:
onecreek... so move.
May 22, 2008
12:29 p.m.
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Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
I didn't make the list even after my comment. :-(
May 22, 2008
12:45 p.m.
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Squatch writes:
only list i want to make is the list of powerball millionaires.
May 22, 2008
12:50 p.m.
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JMac writes:
RickyLee,
hasslicher_jude means ugly jew.... hence the name I choose to address neo-nazi boy by, handsome_jew.
I knew that 3 years of German in highschool would pay off somehow.....
May 22, 2008
12:54 p.m.
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OneCreek writes:
steel:
You have found your calling. You can write bumper stickers, with really nifty slogans such as "Love it or leave it", while your spittle drips all over yourself. You can put your jiffy Chinese-made American Flag lapel pin on, hopefully without causing a serious puncture wound, and pen witticisms all day long about how great things are on the U.S.S. Titanic while it slips beneath the waves of history.
We are all going to go down together, because the forces of which I spoke about in the negative are piloting the ship of state today. Why don't you take your own advice, and go find that "promised land" where fascism is and has been the norm, rather than insist on our adoption of a philosophy inimicably foreign to both our cultural history and beliefs.
And again, kudos the the Aurora Police Officer whose marksmanship and judgment saved this womans life. Hopefully, whatever terrible circumstances that had driven her to the edge of suicide can be treated, and her life made whole again.
May 22, 2008
12:58 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Awww OneCreek! Let's all hug.
That'll fix 'er.
May 22, 2008
1:04 p.m.
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redwhiteandBLUE writes:
Again, a weapon involved. Anytime there's a knife, gun. screwdriver, ice pick involved the police are trained to shoot. Glad it was in the leg. Look and learn.
May 22, 2008
1:17 p.m.
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JMac writes:
handsome_jew said, "RAHOWA is closer than we think"
Didn't your mother ever tell you to be careful what you wish for?You and yours will suffer a great defeat, perish and burn in hell for all eternity!
May 22, 2008
1:20 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
What's "RAHOWA"?
May 22, 2008
1:26 p.m.
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davies writes:
OneCreek: Again, I appreciate your thoughtful posts. I'm not sure I understand what alternative you are offering to the legal status of a corporation, and how they are operated. Please don't suggest government ownership and/or control. You rightly point out that corporations already have undue influence on our elected officials. But at least we still elect our representative whores, and each vote comes from a human being, not a corporate 'person'. If the government runs business, there will still be tremendous economic power to be wielded, but it will be done by unelected bureaucrats, such as me. That would be a bad thing.
Miss Kitty: I'm so sorry; I think your moniker is just too cute and cuddly for you to make the Fascist List.
May 22, 2008
1:28 p.m.
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Squatch writes:
RAcial HOly WAr.
That guy is a freak. he is just one here trying to rile people up.
May 22, 2008
1:35 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Racial Holy War?
Dang, I'm glad I didn't know what that was! Well I for one hope it doesn't come to that - I'm the product of so many races and cultures that I'd be at war with myself. I'd hate to have to kick my own arse!
Hehehe...may The Force be with you.
May 22, 2008
1:36 p.m.
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davies writes:
I'm rooting for JMac. OneCreek, you can have h_jude.
May 22, 2008
1:37 p.m.
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B_Man writes:
Monica-
You are a blithering idiot and a waste of useful oxygen...Yes you are completely wrong and when the fatcs of this case are released to your stupid ass you will see that. And just a question, do you know the race of the officer that shot this lady?? Your a friggin idiot, turn the page with your whiny white hating innuendo....You are a MORON
May 22, 2008
1:51 p.m.
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steel writes:
onecreek, while you may blather on and put your students to sleep, it is combat vets such as myself, that have earned the right to speak as we please. If I choose to write in "bumper stickers", so be it. At least I don't lower myself to derogatory comments if someone says something I don't like. Go bore your cats.
May 22, 2008
1:52 p.m.
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OneCreek writes:
davies: The last thing I would ever suggest is government control of corporations, or for that matter, any business.
My suggestion is that they be broken up to small units that function in areas of particular expertise. Recall back when R.J.R. Tobacco purchased Nabisco? Of what benefit was that to the public at large? None, I contend. Conversely, the new conglomeration was a negative. The same C.E.O.'s who had been telling us for decades smoking was good for you, now were selling us food. Hmmmmmm.
Aerospace mergers are another case in point. Martin-Marietta, a corporation with a comparatively great overall engineering and corporate culture was merged with Lockheed, which moved in and out of bankruptcy status like a prostitute changes johns. And that was with "cost-plus" contracts and enough "Black" work to drape the moon. Boeing and Douglas Aircraft; same thing. What these mergers did was reduce competition for defense contracts, and those are tax dollars wasted, let alone the loss of innovation due to competition.
The "Banking Industry" consolidations have left us wholly vulnerable to endemic bad practice affecting the whole, because the whole is now but a few. Add to that the revolving door between Wall Street and the office of the Secretary of the Treasury and the attendant loss of regulation by the government (Treasury) of banking, we see the fiasco about to take down the entire financial system. In a sane and reasonably regulated world, there would be no 400 trillion dollar "derivatives bubble" about to burst, because no sane and responsible government regulator would have allowed such a thing as a "derivative" to be created in the first place.
When the regulators and business are effectively one and the same,
we are treated to such unethical and immoral behavior. What is now standard practice was one illegal.
We need a firewall between business and government, where government serves the interests and well being of its citizens, rather than that of the corporations.
Further, corporations should not be considered "legal persons". Such a status virtually eliminates liability on the part of the decision-makers within the corporation. and in spite of propaganda to the contrary, by law, a corporations sole responsibility is to maximize profits to the shareholders (See Dodge v. Ford during the 1920's). Responsibility to the consumer or the community at large is legally irrelevant, being only an economic and public relations concern. Smaller is better.
May 22, 2008
1:54 p.m.
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steel writes:
"spittle drips all over myself"? Why, I think I've been insulted.
May 22, 2008
1:55 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Remember when we were talking about a lady who got the cops called on her because she was waving a gun and breaking her restraining order?
May 22, 2008
1:58 p.m.
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steel writes:
missmilehi, we changed subjects "like a prostitute changes johns".
May 22, 2008
2:02 p.m.
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steel writes:
onecreek, "Smaller is better." I bet you say that to all the girls.
May 22, 2008
2:02 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
missmilehi,
Don't go ruining all of the fun!
davies, I always valie your opinion. Don't you agree with any of what OneCreek has to say?
May 22, 2008
2:04 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
Value, I "value" your opinion!!! I am dealing with a broken finger. It has messed me up!
May 22, 2008
2:05 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Heidi - sorry, I'm still sad because i didn't make the list.
May 22, 2008
2:10 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
well, you sure earned it, missmilehi. How about I make you an honorary member?
May 22, 2008
2:11 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
WOOOOOOOO!!!
Well, ok.
May 22, 2008
2:13 p.m.
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DahmersCookbook writes:
Wow OneCreek, if your "words per minute" could increase by 10x then you could make smoke come out of the RMN headquarters. Do your co-workers hide from you? Banter must turn into painful conversation with you.
May 22, 2008
2:13 p.m.
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RickyLee writes:
steel....wipe it off, you'll rust!
May 22, 2008
2:14 p.m.
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steel writes:
Too late RickyLee. Oil can! Oil can!
May 22, 2008
2:16 p.m.
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steel writes:
Welcome aboard missmilehi.
May 22, 2008
2:24 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Steel - thanks, and...
(I gotta say it!)
Oil can what?
:D
May 22, 2008
2:36 p.m.
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steel writes:
missmilehi... Well, RickyLee told me to wipe off the spittle that onecreek said I was getting on myself, before I rusted. The oil can was from the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz. He said it when he rusted up.
May 22, 2008
2:37 p.m.
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steel writes:
Oh I get it! Oil can what? LMAO
May 22, 2008
2:44 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
I KNOW STEEL!!! After the Tin Man says "Oil can" through a rusted mouth, the Scarecrow says "Oil can what?"!
:)
May 22, 2008
2:44 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
I KNOW STEEL!!! After the Tin Man says "Oil can" through a rusted mouth, the Scarecrow says "Oil can what?"!
:)
May 22, 2008
2:44 p.m.
OneCreek writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 22, 2008
2:51 p.m.
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steel writes:
Onecreep, you are a borderline wacko. I was in Danang '69-'70. I'll ignore the wife beater remark because you have just shown you are not someone whom I care to converse with.
May 22, 2008
2:54 p.m.
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davies writes:
Thanks Heidi; you are probably my favorite fascist BTW. I think OneCreek made some very good points, but I'm not sure his/her solutions would solve that much, and they scare me a little. Not that I have any better solutions... gotta run.
May 22, 2008
2:55 p.m.
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OneCreek writes:
steel - Da Nang is two words. Sure you were there?
May 22, 2008
2:57 p.m.
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steel writes:
Onecreep, one last thing. The letters after my name on my business card are... B.S., M.S.C.M., P.E.
May 22, 2008
3:01 p.m.
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denverchick writes:
I think she got lucky and the officer was a bad shot.
May 22, 2008
3:06 p.m.
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steel writes:
denverchick, thank you for bringing us back on subject.
May 22, 2008
3:07 p.m.
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steel writes:
Jude, I doubt it. what do you do?
May 22, 2008
3:12 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel, denverchick was just trying to sum it all up, based on all of these posts. I am sure she read them all.
hmmm...maybe jude is steel's boss.
May 22, 2008
3:12 p.m.
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steel writes:
I hear what you're saying. I hate it when people see me without my mask.
May 22, 2008
3:15 p.m.
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steel writes:
Heidi, I wasn't being sarcastic. I was genuinely glad that someone changed the subject. You just can't disagree with some people without them degressing. Calling me a wife beater! That's not why we're divorced.
May 22, 2008
3:17 p.m.
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missmilehi writes:
I tried steering the conversation back to the shooting and got a reply about hookers and johns :'(
May 22, 2008
3:21 p.m.
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steel writes:
I'm sorry Missmilehi. I was actually throwing that one at onecreep. It was his line.
I bow in your general direction.
May 22, 2008
3:24 p.m.