GRIEGO: Bottom line: Three kids have no dad
By Tina Griego, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
Brian Lehmann / The Rocky
Carolina Valencia, 16, receives a group hug Monday from friends in front of a memorial for her father, Odiceo, who was shot and killed Saturday.
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Altagracia Medina, her husband Odiceo Valencia and their three children lived in a trim tan house on a block in one of the older subdivisions in Montbello. It's a nice-looking street, a mixed neighborhood of black, white and Hispanic families.
They bought the house about nine years ago, just before their youngest daughter, Graciela, was born. They had known each other since they were schoolchildren in Mexico, became a couple in California in 1984, moved to Denver in 1987. It was Graciela that kept asking them to get married; she wanted a wedding.
They married in July 2005. Their wedding pictures, huge, framed photos of the couple alone, of the couple and their children, hang in the living room. They were a handsome family. Dad and son in suits, with ties and handkerchiefs peeking from their breast pockets; Mom and the two girls wearing white dresses and pearl necklaces, and Graciela, the baby, the princess, wearing a tiny tiara.
I do not realize I am looking at their wedding picture when I first see it in the 4-by-5 version, propped up against some rocks at a memorial shrine to Valencia. I see only a beautiful family in happier times, the photo surrounded by flowers and flickering devotional candles beneath a tree on a street where neighborhood kids are playing basketball.
I ask them how the family is doing, and they say Medina is beside herself and the girls are doing the best they can, but they worry about the boy, 14-year-old Jesse. "He hasn't broke, yet."
Then I see Jesse, sitting on the front step of his house, stoic. I tell him I'm sorry and I touch his arm. He nods, his expression never changing.
You can second-guess this case. You could run down every should've, could've, why-didn't-they, why-didn't-he. You can spread blame to every cop in uniform or every immigrant who struggled with the English language, and you still end up here with a shrine and chalk marks on the street and three children who no longer have a father.
No one could have seen how this would end. Not the cops. Not the family who called the cops for help. As for Valencia, it would not be hard to argue that he feared that the family he loved was lost to him and that in those last distraught moments he wanted to die.
There should be nothing but sorrow for this family. His shooting by police is not theater, as the family's priest, Father Gerardo Puga, tells me. "It is not spectacle. It is a human tragedy."
The couple were having problems. Valencia moved into an apartment not far away four months ago. Even then, Medina says, he still came by to see the kids, to give them money. He was always a hard worker and a good and loving father, she says, and the problems they had, they were problems of couples and they needed time to work on them. Valencia, a diabetic, was never much of a drinker, she says, but he began drinking heavily in the last two months, and one day a month ago, he stopped her on her way home from work and he hit her. A court ordered him to stay away from her.
Yes, Medina tells me, he did believe he was losing all that mattered to him, his family. It is not hard, then, to imagine Saturday, the first Holy Communion of his princess Graciela. He attended Mass, the family agreed to let him come to the party afterward. They ate and talked, everyone in good spirits. Then a friend of the family, a man Valencia believed to be his rival, arrived.
Perhaps, in this moment, the landscape shifted beneath Valencia's feet, maybe he saw himself, on this most special of days, on the outside looking in at his family. He became upset, announcing abruptly: "I need to leave." But inside the kitchen, in front of his wife, he took a knife and slashed it across his arm.
I'm going now, he said. And he left.
They are angry now, this family, the two eldest children, Carolina and Jesse.
"We called for help for him, not us," Medina says. "We weren't in danger, he was. Why did they come here and then call him to come back to the house? They killed him in front of me and my children."
If police did ask him to return, police spokesman Sonny Jackson says, it is only because they did want to help; Valencia had cut himself, he was bleeding, his location unknown.
This is a matter to be scrutinized, along with others in this case. What is not in dispute is that Valencia returned to the street where he saw officers waiting and he got out of the car with a knife. However limited his English may have been, when a cop points a gun at you and you're holding a knife, you drop it.
They'll kill him, the man across the street told his wife, and the neighbor ran toward Valencia and the officers, only to be forced back when one or more fired pepper balls at him.
Valencia kept walking. Police yelled at him to drop the knife; he kept walking. They shot him with pepper balls, with a Taser.
Police and neighborhood witnesses disagree on what happened next. He dropped the knife then. Or he didn't.
In any event, they shot him multiple times. His body was removed, Medina says, before she and her children could go to him.
I keep thinking about Jesse having "not broke." I ask him about that Tuesday. He says, "I don't feel sad. I'm angry." Then he leaves the house to get his hair cut. In the last conversation Valencia had with Medina, he asked if it was OK to attend Jesse's confirmation, another holy sacrament of the Catholic church. "Of course," she remembers telling him. "You are our children's father."
Jesse will be confirmed today.
An account to help with the family's funeral expenses has been opened at Wells Fargo Bank West, 9000 E. Colfax Ave., Aurora, CO 80010. Account number: 1255052125. griegot@RockyMountainNews.com
May 21, 2008
2:38 a.m.
happymike44 writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
2:45 a.m.
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clyde writes:
One thing I would like to ask without the usual sidetracking, insults, obsfucation and posturing... Was he in this country legally? It's a simple question, yes or no?
May 21, 2008
2:48 a.m.
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clyde writes:
Tina, did you forget about the restraining order? His rap sheet? His history? Nice bit of slanted editorializing as I can see.
May 21, 2008
5:01 a.m.
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gwats writes:
Ignorant + indifferent = one dead man who could have averted this tragedy by dropping the knife and laying down on the ground. A gun pointed @ me anywhere in the World is going to get me to surrender on the spot. Three children have no father because Daddy played the 'macho' card. Where was his love for his kids when he CHOSE death, Tina?
This hombre was stuck on stupid and I don't gave damn who loved him! Manson has groupies too!
One less idiot in the World today.
May 21, 2008
5:15 a.m.
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ham writes:
Gee, Tina. Guess it's better having a drunk homicidal/suicidal wife beater with an impressive arrest record as a father than none at all, right?
May 21, 2008
5:23 a.m.
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Rangerjoe1 writes:
I guess Tina would rather have the police killed that would have been more exceptable. Rocky Mt.News is so in bed with illegals and any crazys trying to destroy this state.
May 21, 2008
5:36 a.m.
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kc02 writes:
It's amazing how all of a sudden this guy is the salt of the earth. Why do you write such a puff piece on a man who beats his wife, Tina? Or was the restraining order just a big misunderstanding?
Drunk violent man violates restraining order, shows up at party and cuts himself, family calls police, AND THEN BLAMES POLICE FOR IT ALL GOING WRONG.
I look forward to you writing the same glowing, warm story about a drunk American white guy with a long arrest record who beats his wife, violates the restraining order with the ok of the 'victim', cuts himself in front of his kids, ignores tazers and pepper spray and REPEATED ORDERS TO DROP HIS WEAPON and gets shot.
These people are amazing. If the cops called him back, WHY DID HE COME BACK TO THE COPS WITH A KNIFE?!?!?!
Sorry, I don't give a rat's rump about these people and their drunk, violent father. I don't care about their religious ceremonies that must include violent drunken behavior. I don't care about what happens to the kids because the dad obviously didn't care what happened to the kids.
Be sure to talk about his rap sheet in the next warm story about this wonderful father, Tina.
May 21, 2008
5:38 a.m.
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tiero writes:
He got what he deserved. He should of put the knife down. Just deport the kids now. I don't donate to illegals . I pay enough in taxes for them
May 21, 2008
5:44 a.m.
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Alive writes:
We would not be reading Tina's account if the man had been white. It would have never been written.
May 21, 2008
6:06 a.m.
DisabledVet writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
6:06 a.m.
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strohslite writes:
This guy was an idiot for pulling a knife on armed officers. Now the family will sue the city of Denver for all they can get and continue to blame everyone else for his mistake. Stop reading Griego's puff pieces. She only has feelings for these illegal lawbreakers.
May 21, 2008
6:14 a.m.
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blacksho89 writes:
I have a very important, serious question, that perhaps someone ca answer.
If the Denver police called him on his cell phone to come back, and he understood, then how did he NOT understand when they said "Drop the knife!"
This was a horrible incident. Two children saw their father shot and killed. But to put the blame on men who were defending themselves from a man with a knife, is wrong.
May 21, 2008
6:23 a.m.
Earl writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
6:49 a.m.
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timeandagain writes:
If these morons DO decide to sue the city, I hope our City Attorney will have the guts to go all the way to a trial (as opposed to settling the lawsuit prior). 2 reasons:
1) We would have an opportunity to see Ms. Griego, pathetically balling on the witness stand as a character witness for the plaintiff.
2) The jury would have an opportunity to award the family financial recompense for the value of this man's life - ZERO DOLLARS!
May 21, 2008
6:50 a.m.
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Michael writes:
"...became a couple in California in 1984, moved to Denver in 1987." - TG
I truly am sorry this man had to lose his life and his family lost their dad - BUT - if what Tina Griego says is true in the sentence above, this guy and this couple have been in the USA since at least 1984 - 24 YEARS!!!! How could anyone live ANYWHERE in the USA for that long and not know how to speak (and be fluent!!) English????
May 21, 2008
6:50 a.m.
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Buckwheat writes:
I would have to write this one off as Suicide(sp) by Cop.. From what information I've read, that's my guess. Would not be the first time, won't be the last. If the police would have opened fire right away i might have a different opinion. Sorry it went down like that. Weather he was an illegal or not, has no bearing, he knew they were cops, and he chose to challenge them. End of story
May 21, 2008
6:54 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
I'd like for a majority of you to face his children and comment the way you have about their father to their faces. Some of you are absolutely sick in your thought process. Never in all the years that I have lived in the state of Colorado would I have ever been ashamed as I am now to call myself a native. I just hope that most of you were brought up ignorant, cause that would be a little more understandable.
May 21, 2008
6:57 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
My grandparents lived in Rural New Mexico since 1910 and neither spoke English fluently; however they were American, and it doesn't make them any less American than you and I.
May 21, 2008
7:04 a.m.
BillK writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
7:06 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
Spin it in any direction you want, any child losing their father is a tragedy.
May 21, 2008
7:08 a.m.
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Alive writes:
KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout
So being for personal responsibility is a "sick" thought process eh? Perhaps YOU are the one Coloradans should be ashamed of. Perhaps you were just raised stupid. That would make your nasty little comment more understandable.
May 21, 2008
7:08 a.m.
Oh_Wise_One writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
7:12 a.m.
shoulder2shoulder writes:
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May 21, 2008
7:12 a.m.
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Oh_Wise_One writes:
KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout- they didn't "lose" their father, he didn;t wander off into the desert, he got shot while resisting arrest. People like you who insult people expressing their opinions are the closet fascists that we can expect to see more of in the next few years of our decline through illegal immigration.
If you really want to help, close the border and let them reform their own country.
May 21, 2008
7:13 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
Posted by Alive on May 21, 2008 at 7:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So being for personal responsibility is a "sick" thought process eh?
What!?
Perhaps YOU are the one Coloradans should be ashamed of.
Again, WHAT!?
I'm sure your thought process had good intentions; however it didn't quite make it to your fingers.
May 21, 2008
7:16 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
My intention is not to address the families anger toward cops but to point out that the comments on this page are disgusting. Three children are without their father. It doesn't make a difference that he was not a model citizen. And for you to accuse me of insulting, please take a look at the comments your defending before throwing mud at me.
May 21, 2008
7:17 a.m.
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Alive writes:
Don't pretend you don't understand what I meant you simpering apologist for irresponsibility. I don't care where your grandparents lived or what they did. I care that a person deserves NO SPECIAL PASS just because they are Hispanic. Is that clear enough for you?
You want true justice? Then accept when one of your raza screws the pooch!
May 21, 2008
7:17 a.m.
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vudumom writes:
Why is it , everytime someone loses a family member in a tragic way,they start a fund to collect money? I can understand in big stories like an apartment fire or something but not something brought on themselves. As for the money for burial. Why don't they ask their church for the money? Oh, that's right they don't give refunds.
May 21, 2008
7:20 a.m.
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gr8fuldude writes:
My wife moved here from Asia. LESS THAN ONE MONTH after she got here, she enrolled in an ESL class, DESPITE that she already had some English fluency. This clown could not be bothered to learn the language after 20+ years. But yet, it is the city's fault that this guy is dead? I agree with the poster above, that this should go all the way to trial, so as to show the farce it is.
May 21, 2008
7:24 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
It's true it happends, but it's only under the microscope when minorities mess up. It's understandable the U.S. is run by rich white folks. I get that, but that's a pretty lame excuse to use about NO SPECIAL PASS because they're hispanic. What a cop-out (no pun intended)! This isn't about a hispanic man dieing it's about children who now have no father. I never said I agreed with either side I simply said it's a tragedy that they have lost their father and here I'm getting prounced on for saying most of you are heartless. Please carry on with your rants about immigration and your superior race. I can simply walk away from my computer; you on the other hand will be here for a majority of the day rambling on about NOTHING.
May 21, 2008
7:25 a.m.
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Alive writes:
KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout
Yea walk away from your computer. Poor baby.
May 21, 2008
7:26 a.m.
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John Boogert writes:
OK, everybody, please take a breath and knock off the personal attacks.
Thank you, John Boogert Rocky Internet news editor
May 21, 2008
7:27 a.m.
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Alive writes:
"Please carry on with your rants about immigration and your superior race."
Another white hating racist smoked out in record time! This one was too easy!
May 21, 2008
7:37 a.m.
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sqjnk writes:
good old american racism once again rears its ugly head in the comments page of this newspaper. it's sad how a tragedy like this can bring out the worst in people. i wish for peace to the family and police officers, and some enlightenment and empathy for all those who use this issue to spout their racist views.
May 21, 2008
7:38 a.m.
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Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
It's sad that a life was ended, but I still feel strongly that this man and his family brought this upon themselves. A court ordered restraining order was violated. DPD were doing a job and is not to blame, so please RMN quit trying to place blame on everyone else and not the family.
May 21, 2008
7:40 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout... WOW, your new here, huh?
May 21, 2008
7:43 a.m.
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Coco writes:
How about a touching story about the police who had to confront, and stop this man? I don't doubt that each one of them is devastated about what happened. How about a story that focuses on their depression, their stuggles to come back to normalcy, their family issues. They are the heroes here - they stopped a man who very well might have hurt an innocent - isn't that why the family called the police in the first place? I agree this is a huge tragedy for the family, and that the children are the ones who will pay, but let's don't forget that it is a tragedy for the police who had to use deadly force, too. It's time to reach out and support them.
May 21, 2008
7:44 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
Tina Griego... I have heard someone was looking to write abook about Hitler and Stalin. They could use your special touch in avoiding the facts and removing all the harsh reality they have done!!!
What do you say, girl?
May 21, 2008
7:48 a.m.
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Logical writes:
KnowWhat...,
A dad is a role model. This many was not a positive role model. He drank heavily, he didn't assimilate into the country where he lived for 24 years, he beat his wife, and he had a long rap sheet.
If this is the kind of role model we should strive to protect, then I don't see America being a great place to live in a couple of generations.
How about we talk frankly with the kids, and let them know that their father made some bad choices, and paid the price? Tough love is much better than sugar-coating criminals, just because they have kids. Kids need to learn the realities of the consequences of their actions. On the surface, I am sorry kids lost their dad. But when looking into the whole picture, this man was not a good role model - in fact he was a bad role model. And, since many kids want to grow up to be like their parents, this is probably good that he is no longer around to beat his wife, get stupid-drunk, etc.
Bleeding hearts don't seem to understand that not everyone is good, and that not every death is bad. Take the blinders off and look at the whole picture, not just your rosy, imaginary happy family dream.
May 21, 2008
7:49 a.m.
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Michael writes:
Anyone remember the little girl who was shot not too long ago??? Her parents were "gangstas" who dressed her in gang colors and had pictures of themselves on the web with weapons and gang poses and signs - remember that one?? Well here we go again. This type of behavior is all too common within certain neighborhoods and within certain ethnic groups. And it always ends in tragedy. Criminal behavior, no respect for law enforcement, little or no English language skills, little or no education, etc. etc. and etc. This is not to say that ALL people in this category are like this, but TOO many are and there are never any cries for more personal accountability and more restraint and proper behavior on the part of those that exhibit this. Why?????
May 21, 2008
7:51 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
KnowWhatyourTalkingabout.... is your other screen name Tina Griego?
May 21, 2008
7:59 a.m.
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airbornebigfoot writes:
the bottom line is this:
this family wouldnt have the problems they have now,
if they would have just stayed in mexico.
May 21, 2008
8:03 a.m.
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lg1960 writes:
Tina obviously all of these attacks on you and the family are missing the point of the story, which is three kids and a wife WATCHED their father and husband get shot and killed right before their eyes. At that moment it really DIDN'T matter what his past record was-what matters is this horrible scene unfolded before them. I didn't feel you were writing a "puff" piece, I felt as though you were trying to convey to people that no matter what his past-it's still terribly sad for this family and the people who knew what was really going on. Nobody knows what goes on behind people's closed doors. But by reading this blog-you would think all these people live perfect lives, with perfect people who never make any mistakes. Wow, if only huh?
Not to mention that for some reason-no matter what the topic, the people on this blog are always viscious and always immediately make every story either about race or the government. It seems they never "get" the human side of things.
Anyhow, thank you for giving another side to this story. I appreciate the fact that you went there, met the family and reported back how they are doing. As far as I can tell from the bloggers, none of them has met face-to-face with them so really-are in no position to judge.
May 21, 2008
8:04 a.m.
shoulder2shoulder writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
8:08 a.m.
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Mtnsjohn writes:
Pure spectulation.
....the family would eventually all fix their problems and live happily ever after.
....Valencia, upset with a pending divorce, commits suicide after taking his wife and kids with him.
Reality. Valencia was enough of a threat that a restraining order was issued by a judge. The only person who can give permission for a person to violate it is a judge. Sad, but Altagracia (wife) is also responsible for her three kids without a father and for this tragedy.
May 21, 2008
8:11 a.m.
mrNiceGuy writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
8:13 a.m.
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raysmom writes:
I guess my biggest problem with this incident and others like it, is that there is a certain socio-economic group of people who will always blame the authorities when they cannot control their own lives, and yet expect police to be able to, to their expectations and a perfect ending. And then the media supports them in deflecting blame- that's why the people here get so riled up.
I would never choose to have any person, bad or good, killed in front of their family, but this was not the police's fault. And they don't shoot to injure- if a weapon is used, finally, after all other attempts fail, they shoot to kill.
This was a dangerous man- this kind of behavior escalates, restraining orders are not made permanant lightly, and the mother used very poor judgement in allowing it to be violated. I doubt this is the first time she has used poor judgement, from the history and results. For Ms. Griego to legitimize the "blame the authorites" attitude by a young person who has not been raised to understand why this attitude is not productive, and who is hurting and angry, does no good for the police or the community- it just fans the flames of resentment on both sides, as we have seen on this thread today.
May 21, 2008
8:17 a.m.
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CaptainObvious writes:
I'm starting a new campaign--it's called "Taking Responsibility For Your Actions."
I realize this is a weird and foreign idea for some of you, but we'll start slow, with baby steps to begin. The first rule is, if you choose to take an action, you and you alone will be responsible for the consequences. The second rule is rule number one applies to you no matter what color of skin you have, what gender you are, or which language you speak. Those of you blaming the cops in this case, I'll give you a few hours to digest and discuss this novel concept before we move on.
May 21, 2008
8:18 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
raysmom,
you've hit the nail on the head!
May 21, 2008
8:22 a.m.
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T1anda writes:
The draw for illegals is not stealing American jobs anymore. It is also LAWSUITS! The word is out in illegal circles! Look for more and more of these disgusting lawsuits in the future!!
This family hasn't filed yet but I gaurantee they will in the coming weeks!! Look for it!!
May 21, 2008
8:23 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
WOW.. since you put it in all CAPS, meNiceguy... I see your point and your are correct!!!
May 21, 2008
8:23 a.m.
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NativeDenver writes:
You know, folks, Tina is right. The bottom line IS that this family is now without a father.
NOT, as it very easily could have been, without a mother. Or without a couple of the kids. Or a couple of the neighbors. Or a couple of the cops.
It is a sad thing that Mr. Valencia made bad choices and paid the price for his bad choices, and I'm not making light of the family's grief. But it could have been a whole lot worse.
May 21, 2008
8:24 a.m.
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db writes:
Doesn't the editor or griego's boss ever
read these ? C'mon, are you people that dense ?
There is a serious backlash - perhaps loudly
boycotting some of RMN advertisers might get
them to pull advertising. We've had it with
the pro-illegal bleeding-heart racist 'news'.
unbelievable.
May 21, 2008
8:28 a.m.
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MattGuyver_007 writes:
Most of these posts are talking about whether Mr. Valencia was breaking a law and here illegally- that's not racism.
The real victims here are the children but, based on the facts, their father's actions both on Saturday night and throughout the past 5 years ultimately cost him his life.
Oh, and Ms. Griego, you owe the DPD and RMN readers an apology for the article above.
May 21, 2008
8:38 a.m.
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gr8fuldude writes:
While it is true (and very unfortunate) that these children are now without a father, I think an argument can be made as to if said father ever existed in the first place.
Was he educated? Could he ensure he would be employable before planning a family? Did he and the mother attend parenting classes? Was he insured? Did they have sufficient savings? Was the home paid off? Did he have a will in place to assure his kids would have a legal guardian should he and the mother not be around?
There are many programs/scholarships/opportunities here for anyone willing to apply for them. Seems the father not only chose to ignore the law, as well as the orders of the DPD officers who responded, but also to ignore the opportunity to better himself. Sad for all really.
May 21, 2008
8:45 a.m.
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Shaggy writes:
Hey Tina,
Here is just Denvers lengthy record of this "hard working and good and loving father". I noticed you elected not to look it up or point it out to us.
http://www.khow.com/cc-common/mlib/63...
I wonder what kind of record this "hard working and good and loving father" has in the other surrounding Cities?
This guy was under a restraining order and part of that restraining order is for him not to have any weapons and no drinking....Looks like these stipulations were just more inconvenient Laws he chose to ignore?
For this family to say they called him back so they can kill him tells me volumes about this family.
How could this guy understand English on the phone but not when a gun is pointed at him?
I also hoped you told this family when you met with them that this is America and in America we speak English and anyone here for 25 years should also speak English.
May 21, 2008
8:46 a.m.
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HolierThanThou writes:
The police did exactly what all the happy posters on this message board wanted them to do.
They murdered a man in front of his family because he was drunk.
I've disarmed drunks who were holding knives. It's not that difficult because their reflexes are slowed by the booze. One time it was a simple as hollering, "Gimme that before you hurt yourself!"
But the world according to the racists and other angry souls on this board dictates that police must be murderous cowards. They're under orders to shoot at the slightest provocation and ask questions later, especially if their target happens to be one of those hated categories of people.
So, ironically, I observe that the police did their job very well. They served the meanest, most cowardly and unforgiving detritus of our troubled society. They murdered a man because it pleases the likes of all those who have posted horrible things about the aggrieved family on this board, all those who find fault with a troubled man while failing to see that they are much worse.
May 21, 2008
8:55 a.m.
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bhaney01 writes:
Tina,
The children of the dead man are without a father for the same reason those left fatherless after the Swift raids are without theirs: The men in question failed to obey the law. Those in Greeley were (are) illegal, and were lawfully deported. Mr. Valencia (the wife beating, drunken criminal), who is probably an illegal (there's that word you won't use), failed to obey the order to drop his weapon. And let's not forget the fact that he was in violation of a court order to stay away from his family, not drink or carry a weapon (the order was filed by his wife after he beat her). By allowing her husband to attend the communion, she is also culpable for his death. Perhaps someone should remind Altagracia of that fact when she's telling her sob story to some ambulance chasing lawyer. I rarely read your articles due to their lack of factual evidence. This one is no exception. As another reader wrote, this would not be an issue with you if the dead man were white.
May 21, 2008
8:55 a.m.
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Steph writes:
Gr8fuldude, I completely agree with you on every point. My only problem with illegals is that they can't seem to stop having kids even though they have no means to support or educate them thus creating generations and generations of uneducated children who continue the cycle and WE end up paying for their resources. Not to mention, the world is dangerously over-populated already and these kind of people are just adding to the problem. Surely, there are a lot of white trash who do the same thing but Mexican immigrants seem to be the worst. That's why you don't hear bitching about Canadian illegals.
How many Chinese restaurants do you go to where the owners and waitpeople at least bothered to learn the language.
May 21, 2008
8:56 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
Our open borders work both ways.
If anyone is "ashamed" of where they live, the state, the country, the office you work in, the authority figures that facilitate order, elected officials, bosses, laws, lawmakers, etc, etc...they are free to leave.
Do YOU "know what I'm talking about"?
Oh, by the way, can someone set up a fund for me? I'm a law abiding, tax paying, Pledge of Allegiance saying citizen who doesn't punch my family or weild knives at my loved ones, friends, and law enforcement officers. Thanks guys!
May 21, 2008
8:57 a.m.
Suggest removal
mojambo writes:
yesterday it was, "..the family agreed he would not attend the small gathering planned at the Valencia home in Montbello after the event. But Valencia wept, so at the last minute, his 16-year-old daughter, Carolina, said he could come"
Now today it's, "...the family agreed to let him come to the party afterward"
See how that works. With a stroke of the pen, facts become maliable, twisted at the writer's whim.
What a hack.
May 21, 2008
8:58 a.m.
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OhBrother writes:
good article, shows another side of this story. I don't think she ever stated even once that this was the police fault? If his son is angry, why wouldn't he be? His dad was killed in front of him but I guess if you were a kid and that happend you would understand perfectly and instantly get over it. His anger is misplaced becuase he only can see it from his shoes- the cops shot his father.
what no longer shocks me is the amount of people in colorado that hate anything and everything mexican. I don't see why anyone would ever wish bad upon a child, they can't control there fathers actions, they didn't make hime do this...but i know that really doesn't matter to most posting...it's just go back to mexico
May 21, 2008
9:04 a.m.
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gr8fuldude writes:
Steph -
I agree with you on all counts. As an interesting sidenote, when my wife went for an evaluation for her ESL class, there were about 25 otehr prospective students there, about 23 of which were various ethnicities of Asian, and most all were talking about their jobs working in family businesses, such as restaurants, drycleaners, indie grocers, etc.
Spin it how you want, but the cultures who value education over entitlement seem to be the most prosperous.
May 21, 2008
9:10 a.m.
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timeandagain writes:
raysmom -
fantastic post and you are right on!
May 21, 2008
9:11 a.m.
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D_Dude writes:
I will qualify this comment by stating I am no fan of the Denver PD. In fact I believe they're the reincarnation of the Keystone Cops. But a couple things confuse me with the supposed order for Valencia to return to the house. First, the Denver PD encouraging him to return home, with a knife no less, would assist Valencia in directly violating a court-issued restraining order. So am I to believe that the Denver PD encouraged him to commit a crime? Second, this telephone call had to have been made in Spanish and yet none of the officers on the scene spoke Spanish? I obviously don't have all the facts, and I question if the absolute truth will ever be known, but these two questions lead me to the opinion that the call was never made. Irrespecitve of this a man is dead and that is a tragedy, regardless of the questionable circumstances surrounding his death.
May 21, 2008
9:12 a.m.
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PajamaPulitzer writes:
Earl: Did you get popped by the PC Police? I guess you were you guilty of posting while Caucasian.
They probably locked your login. See you tomorrow.
PJ
May 21, 2008
9:13 a.m.
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Steph writes:
I also wonder what kind of Mother Altagracia is to have kept having kids with an abusive, law-breaking father. Doesn't seem very smart to me.
By the way, I'm a bleeding heart hispanic liberal so please don't talk about "bleeding heart liberals" like you know all of them. It's just a convenient short cut for thinking.
May 21, 2008
9:26 a.m.
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PajamaPulitzer writes:
Shaggy: Thanks for posting factual data and for doing the job that the media used to do.
Your post shows this guy was 6 feet tall, 215 pounds which is something the media choose not to tell us. He was also drunk and angry and had an extensive record including violent behavior. As the cops say, it was a "good shoot".
If he were white we would probably be talking about the economy today.
May 21, 2008
9:27 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
I once went to court with a woman who was divorcing a naturalized Mexican. He had been in this country for 20 years, went to college here, raised two children with his wife, and throughout the 13 years I knew him, spoke fluent English.
At the divorce hearing, he suddenly had amnesia or something and mysteriously lost all ability to speak or understand English. He altered his speaking to make it seem like he'd never even heard someone speak English before! I sat there stunned, wanting to call him out in front of the court room.
It's sad that people would rather claim idiocy than take responsibility for their actions.
May 21, 2008
9:27 a.m.
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Seanp454 writes:
While it is unfortunate that some seem to focus on the race of the individual both as a motive for the police to shoot him and his immigration status.
Race has nothing to do with this issue.
It is all about choices. The choice that a man with a knife made that led to his death, the choices of the police that responded and the choice of the family to have him over at the house in violation of a court order.
Unfortunately the real victems here are the kids. But in saying that This man made a choice and unfortunately it is his family that will live with it for the rest of their life.
The family said that it was him that needed help not them, that might be true but an upset man with a knife is trouble, the situation could have gone many different ways and very few of them good. They say they were not in danger but how could that be known? This man has already acted out violently against his family what makes you think that this time he would have behaved? He had a knife and had cut himself at what was supposed to be a special time for his child.
I am tired of the manner in which the press is reporting this story. The reality of the situation is this man was acting irrationally and was a danger to himself and others. Law Enforcement was called and took action (whether or not it was appropriate will be determined). Yes it is a sad event but it boils down toa very inappropriate choice made by an individual at a family celebration and that choice had consequences not only for him but for all involved.
May 21, 2008
9:28 a.m.
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Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
The headline should read - BOTTOM LINE: Three kids have no dad due to restraining order violation.
I agree that no child can control the actions of their father or parents, but a RO was in place for an amount of control, said RO was violated because no one in this family followed the law of such order. The family's actions of allowing this father to attend the communion and then the party afterwards speak to the effect that they most likely felt they didn't have to follow the law. They felt above the law of the country they chose to live and prosper in. So how is that the fault of the DPD?
May 21, 2008
9:29 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
clyde, Tina does mention the restraining order.
At any rate, I hope these children get the help they are going to need to deal with this. I can't imagine this incident not haunting them for the rest of their lives if they don't.
May 21, 2008
9:32 a.m.
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ITisWHATitIS writes:
I've never been more proud to call myself a Coloradan. I'm glad to see that there are people out there that are not blind and don't feel like a criminal for saying what's on their mind about this kind of crap. Earlier someone said that there a bunch of "low-life" idiots on here.. Obviously that is an ignorant statement given the fact that we have jobs where we can use the internet or we are at home on an internet connection that we pay for. Moral of the story.. I'm glad I'm not alone in being able to see through the bull. For those kids, I'm sorry your dad was a piece of crap, maybe now you'll have a chance not to grow up and be one just like him.
May 21, 2008
9:33 a.m.
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KeepingItReal writes:
Hmm,
It seems on May 1st, in the article titled :
'What of the people who knew or suspected abuse?', Griego blasted Aaron Thompson saying "It takes about 15 minutes to read the grand jury indictment of Aaron Thompson, father, but not parent - in no way parent - of Aarone.", however, she is painting this guy as a man that his family is going to miss, although he has a rap sheet longer than Aaron...my question is, Why the double standard? Is race an issue here in her reporting?
Just Keeping It Real...
May 21, 2008
9:37 a.m.
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Alive writes:
OH SNAP!
KeepingItReal kept it real.
Yes, why the double standard?
May 21, 2008
9:39 a.m.
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CWW writes:
Why did the family call the police? If their father was cut and bleeding, why not an ambulance? Now they say, "We called for help for him, not us," Medina says. "We weren't in danger, he was."
Yes, the spin is already starting. Thanks for your interpretation of the facts, Ms. Griego. You can be the family's coach at the trial.
May 21, 2008
9:40 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
Please, someone show me where it says that DPD is being blamed.
Facts:
His son, Jesse, 14, called police, knowing that his father, who was diabetic, was losing blood. Four police officers went to the Valencia home in the 5500 block of North Dillon Way.
Valencia's daughter, Carolina, 16, said police called Valencia on his cell phone asking him to return.
They asked him to return to the scene knowing he had a restraining order. The cops shot him based on training tactics. At FLETC in Glenco we were trained that if you fire your weapon, it's to kill, not to injure or restrain. This situation could have gone in many different directions; but it went in the most devistating (for the children) direction it could have. Now three children do not have a father. Despite his history, I'm sure he loved his children like most of us her do. Can you imagine losing one of them and vice versa?
May 21, 2008
9:45 a.m.
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SLAP writes:
They make him sound like a saint! Restraining order.....drunk at daughters party....cuts himself with a knife. Piss on him...he did this to himself and his family. The police did the right thing!
May 21, 2008
9:46 a.m.
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KeepingItReal writes:
Oh, I just saw this....NICE!!
An account to help with the family's funeral expenses has been opened at Wells Fargo Bank West, 9000 E. Colfax Ave., Aurora, CO 80010. Account number: 1255052125. griegot@RockyMountainNews.com
May 21, 2008
9:46 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Drinking to intoxication
Domestic Violence
Self destructive behavior
A history of negative encounters with law enforcement
Are these the characteristics of anyone more than a biological contributor? Are these the new badges of what it means to be a Daddy?
May 21, 2008
9:50 a.m.
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Squatch writes:
My feeling would have been the same on this death if this was a white father that was shot im this same manner it disappoints me that most of you have no problem with what happened because of his citizen status. You all need to grow up you are just like all these politicians you love to complain about little things instead of the big picture.
May 21, 2008
9:50 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
This is "newsworthy" in the FIRST place because the family is blaming DPD! What part of that don't you get KWYTA?
Apparently this 16 year old daughter thinks she can just shape and mold the law anyway she wants by inviting the man to break his restraining order and THEN criticizing the police for doing their jobs. Here's the daughter's quote from the original RMN article:
"They called him back here," Carolina Valencia said. "Why? So they could kill him in front of us instead of doing their jobs?"
Sounds like she's blaming the cops to me!
(That little girl should go on a ride along...)
May 21, 2008
9:51 a.m.
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HumanBeans writes:
Deport the poor illegal family!!!!!
May 21, 2008
9:52 a.m.
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KeepingItReal writes:
Squatch,
This is part of the big picture...pictures are made up of millions of little points or pixels...this is just a drop of ink that displays part of the picture. If you think this is a 'little thing' then you are not paying attention.
May 21, 2008
9:52 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
Show me a 16 girl who understands the law. She was his daughter and she wanted her FATHER to be present.
May 21, 2008
9:54 a.m.
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KeepingItReal writes:
A 16 year old girl does not have the authority to override a restraining order...sorry, next point.
May 21, 2008
9:56 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
And besides she 16, she's angry and just lost her father. Do you want her to say, my dad's a drunk, I'm glad the cops called him back so they could shoot him?
May 21, 2008
9:57 a.m.
Suggest removal
KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
Yeah like she knows the stipulations of a restraining order.
May 21, 2008
9:59 a.m.
Suggest removal
mytwosense writes:
missmilehi: "Apparently this 16 year old daughter thinks she can just shape and mold the law anyway she wants by inviting the man to break his restraining order and THEN criticizing the police for doing their jobs."
Are you joking??? Do you really think this young girl was motivated to bend the law to her will?
I cannot imagine the bitter little mind you must inhabit to conjure up such a mean-spirited theory. What a depressing mentality to go through life with.
May 21, 2008
10 a.m.
Suggest removal
KeepingItReal writes:
My point, there was a restraining order...He should never have been there...no matter how much she wanted here "Father" there...there was a reason he was instructed to stay away...good try though...
May 21, 2008
10 a.m.
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mojambo writes:
Ignorance of the law is not a defense.
Law 101
May 21, 2008
10:01 a.m.
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KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout writes:
People are still not seeing the human side of this tragic story. That's unfortunate. And most here are just posting to get a rise out of others (KeepingItReal). Rather then entertaining I'll once again step aside, and let you all post NOTHING. Especially you KeepingItReal. Maybe you should change your handle to KeepingItRealIgnorant!
May 21, 2008
10:02 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
You're saying 16 year old girls don't understand the law?! How ridiculous is THAT!
Go to any high school and you'll see plenty of 16 year old girls who understand the law enough to be trusted with a driver license. I bet they also know that it's wrong to wave a knife around in public.
Why did the mother allow this to happen? This 16 year old kid decides it's ok to break the RO so mama complies? She shouldn't have had a restraining order if it was more important to have papi at the party than to keep her children safe and sound.
May 21, 2008
10:03 a.m.
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Squatch writes:
How many years have Illegal immigrants been in the united states?
How many years has the american economy taken advantage of the use of illegals & legal mexicans?
Were there illegals in the united states when Clinton was president and our economy was doing well?
quit blaming them for all the lazy A$$ americans that are above working at mcdonalds or cutting your grass.
May 21, 2008
10:03 a.m.
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KeepingItReal writes:
Real ignorance comes via Insults ;)
May 21, 2008
10:04 a.m.
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mojambo writes:
And Restraining orders go both ways. Neither side can "allow" a violation of the RO. They can choose not to pusure sanction based upon a violation, but if either side "allows" a violation then both are technically in violation of the RO.
May 21, 2008
10:05 a.m.
Alive writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
10:05 a.m.
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HumanBeans writes:
Unemployment plummets after crackdown on illegals
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view...
May 21, 2008
10:07 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
HE beats his wife and endangers his family, and I'M the mean one? Hahaha...ok then.
I'm not here to be nice. I didn't realize "nice" was a prereq for posting comments.
May 21, 2008
10:08 a.m.
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KeepingItReal writes:
Ok, I'm taking my ball and going home...sorry I made someone cry...
May 21, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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American100 writes:
Good riddence Valencia. The world is a better place without your type.
May 21, 2008
10:11 a.m.
Suggest removal
missmilehi writes:
Who's crying? Hey, KIR, just say you don't understand English and you can stay!
May 21, 2008
10:13 a.m.
Suggest removal
Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
KWYTA wrote: "Show me a 16 girl who understands the law. She was his daughter and she wanted her FATHER to be present."
If he was the father Tina painted, HE set the tone of 'It's okay to not follow the law.' It doesn't matter what SHE wanted, it's what he did as a father (disobey a RO) that sets the tone for his daughter and other children to follow. He should've told her he couldn't attend, but he chose not to.
This whole article reaps of blaming the DPD and not putting the blame where it should be - on the family.
Yes, it is sad that a life was lost and that children will grow up w/o a father, but that is the fault of the families actions.
May 21, 2008
10:13 a.m.
Suggest removal
mytwosense writes:
missmilehi, you weren't criticizing the husband in the remark I quoted, you were making a snipe at his teenage daughter who saw him gunned down before her eyes. She may be reading this article and comments, I'm sure it just made her day to see your own that essentially blamed her for his death.
And no, being "nice" certainly isn't a requirement to post on here. Otherwise, I would have been "nice" and ignored your post.
Too bad having a modicum of plain human decency isn't a requirement for being YOU, though.
May 21, 2008
10:13 a.m.
CDDENVER writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
10:13 a.m.
Suggest removal
db writes:
KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout (tg) - real nice, call people
ignorant - and you're the one Not_KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout.
Are you on La Raza payroll ?
( the Race - duh - tell me that's not racist )
Has to be ... hey Temple, since no one I know
reads your paper, I'll get one from the trash and call some
advertisers. This is how you 'report' news ?
May 21, 2008
10:16 a.m.
Suggest removal
Alive writes:
CDDENVER
Listen up. GRINGO is a RACIST word. We find it offensive. Refrain from using it in the future. You want respect? Show some.
May 21, 2008
10:16 a.m.
Suggest removal
Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
Posted by KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout on May 21, 2008 at 7:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
... Please carry on with your rants about immigration and your superior race. I can simply walk away from my computer; you on the other hand will be here for a majority of the day rambling on about NOTHING.
Looks like you couldn't walk away from your computer afterall and you're right here with us rambling on about NOTHING.
May 21, 2008
10:17 a.m.
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American100 writes:
Sounds like the whole damn family is stupid. Tina G. loves lawbreakers.
May 21, 2008
10:18 a.m.
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HumanBeans writes:
The Mexican people have such a beautiful culture and rich rich traditions?
May 21, 2008
10:19 a.m.
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Mtnsjohn writes:
I suppose that people are just venting some of their frustrations with a government that refuses to recognize the effect unbridled illegal immigration is having.
1. Number committing crimes, taking up jail and prison space. We are forced to pay for them.
2. Number of illegal children receiving public education in a don't ask, don't tell tell program where they also receive benefits. We are forced to pay for them and our Governor bemoans that Public Education needs more funding.
3. Health care costs skyrocket because illegals cannot be turned away. Hospitals either recover costs with higher outrageously priced aspirin, or close emergency rooms because they can no longer afford to continue to hand out free care.
4. Have to have uninsured motorist insurance due to increased probability that the "undocumented, unlicensed" driver that hits me doesn't have insurance and is here illegally.
5. As reported, teens cannot find Summer jobs due to illegals in such positions. Employers are taking on faith that the SSN they wrote down actually belongs to the employee who speaks no English.
6. God bless immigration and those who stood in line like they were asked, bothering to learn the language of the Country, and proudly call the United States their country.
Pity that the press has become so politically correct that mentioning the immigration status of persons now somehow reflects racism or bias. Guess it is something that we have no business knowing.
May 21, 2008
10:20 a.m.
Suggest removal
shoulder2shoulder writes:
How come the RMN keeps removing my post for calling Tina an Idiot and they leave CDDCENVERS's post calling everyone a gringo up???
May 21, 2008
10:21 a.m.
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KeepingItReal writes:
Ok, back for 1 more post...
For the sake of the argument, let's eliminate Race...let's say,
this guy is White, Owns a Tie, and Drives a 'Benz...ok, got that picture...I'll wait....ok...
Now, keeping everything else the same, he's still a dirt bag, right? Look at his rap sheet...if it turns out that he is Illegal (migrated from Belfast or Latvia via a cruise to British Columbia and entered through a tourist group going to Niagra Falls). Does this really change the fact about the Violence, Drunkeness, Moving Violations, etc...?
May 21, 2008
10:22 a.m.
Suggest removal
mojambo writes:
"How come the RMN keeps removing my post for calling Tina an Idiot and they leave CDDCENVERS's post calling everyone a gringo up???"
One word - AGENDA
May 21, 2008
10:22 a.m.
HumanBeans writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
10:23 a.m.
Suggest removal
Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
Posted by KnoWhatYoureTalkinAbout on May 21, 2008 at 10:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
People are still not seeing the human side of this tragic story...
Yes we are. Humans make mistakes. The man was human. The children are human. The DPD are human. The family made a mistake. The DPD made it's best assessment possible at the time about a human situation. It's all human.
May 21, 2008
10:23 a.m.
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missmilehi writes:
mytwosense - I hope she does read it! The 16 year old was not only wrong, if she invited her dad to the party she also broke the law!
It's so sad that someone died. It's sad those kids had to see their father get tazed, peppered, and shot. It's all very sad, but everyone who contributed to the incident that day should be held accountable.
I think it's sad that you would say I have no human decency, and then sit there and feel sorry for a wife-beater.
May 21, 2008
10:23 a.m.
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HumanBeans writes:
GRIEGO = La Raza lover!
May 21, 2008
10:28 a.m.
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3dogsand1devilcat writes:
HolierThanThou… You claim that police are trained to “shoot at the slightest provocation”. If that was the case, my friend, our morgues (rather than our jails) would be filled with the combative criminals they deal with day and night. Why don’t you go on a ride along with DPD and each time they come across a belligerent a-hole with a weapon they can simply shove you out front where you can exclaim, “gimme that before you hurt yourself!”. If you’re still alive after it’s all said and done, you can change your pants and give us an update on what you think about today’s police force.
May 21, 2008
10:35 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
missmilehi "It's sad those kids had to see their father get tazed, peppered, and shot. It's all very sad, but everyone who contributed to the incident that day should be held accountable."
And yet, you zero in on a kid to blame except the cops who actually killed him.
Yep, you're a truly lovely person. Have an equally lovely day and don't forget to keep spreading your sunshine wherever you go!
May 21, 2008
10:37 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
missmilehi: "mytwosense - I hope she does read it!"
I have no doubt whatsoever that you do. It feels good for you to make other people hurt, doesn't it? I imagine that's the closest you ever feel to having some power in your life.
May 21, 2008
10:41 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
"I think it's sad that you would say I have no human decency, and then sit there and feel sorry for a wife-beater."
It is allowed when your a liberal!! Facts mean nothing here. Geez, don't you know! ;)
May 21, 2008
10:44 a.m.
RightOn writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
10:45 a.m.
Suggest removal
missmilehi writes:
The family called the cops, the cops didn't just magically appear. The kid should not have told the newspaper that she knew what the cops should or should not have done if she didn't want her words and actions criticized.
Did they think the police were going to sit papi down and have a nice little chat about why his behavior was unacceptable? Maybe, recommend some counseling or give him a big hug?
You zero in on blaming the cops when it was Mr Valencia who was a danger to himself and to others - INCLUDING the kids, who were so frightened of the situation that they summoned police.
The police are not our personal servants. We can't just call them and tell them what we think/want them to do. If you're in a situation so grim that you need the police, you better know that they are going to be in charge of the situation, not you. Like it or not...good or bad, that's how it works.
And thank you for the compliments, I'm glad to have brightened your day.
May 21, 2008
10:47 a.m.
HolierThanThou writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
May 21, 2008
10:48 a.m.
Suggest removal
MarineGrunt writes:
"And yet, you zero in on a kid to blame except the cops who actually killed him."
Yeppers! Cause the police had NOTHING better to do but sit around and say, "Let's kill us a non-violent minority that has done nothing wrong today!" 2nd Cop, "Yeah, I feel like pissing my life away, lets do it!"
The kid asked her father to show up knowing he had a restraining order against him and he had beat her mother.
Why are you not mad he threatened his family or the police with a deadly weapon? Repeatedly ignored commands to lay down said weapon? Nope, your mad because the police protected the people who called them and their sgood health? Really?
Your spot on, after a Tazing and Pepper Ball's, you should allow a crazy guy with a knife to run at you! Great idea. Well thought out plan...
Have you ever been out of your house?
May 21, 2008
10:49 a.m.
Suggest removal
missmilehi writes:
MarineGrunt - you're right! Who cares about facts when there's so many criminals, er I mean victims, to feel sorry for!
:D
May 21, 2008
10:50 a.m.
Suggest removal
MarineGrunt writes:
"I'm starting to love Mexican immigration in any form the more I read these disgusting rants against that family. I'd rather live with people who don't speak my language than those who use it the way you do. As far as I'm concerned I'd like to see the rest of Mexico come up here and replace the lot of you."
No one holding you back.... don't let the door hit you on the way out!!
May 21, 2008
10:50 a.m.
Suggest removal
MissSio writes:
If you think that a 16 year old girl is rational or understands the intricacies of law, then I have a bridge for sale.
As to the fund for funeral expenses, have any of you planned a funeral recently? Do you have any idea how expensive even a (sorry) bare bones one is? I don't know all of the local burial laws, but last one I planned was in PA, and just the cost of the legally required casket and vault was almost $8000. Add the cost of a plot and headstone, the dirt removal and replacement, transport of the body, preparation of the body, funeral home costs, minister and flowers, and you're looking at well over 10k. If you are having visitation hours or a reception, the cost goes even higher. No poor IMMIGRANT family will be able to afford one easily and still buy food.
The ones to feel for are the kids. They lost a father, and are going to be left with a horrible view of the police and authority in general. If they didn't have a horrible view before... Don't forget these kids were born here. One of them could become the president if they wanted to. Instead, thanks to their parent's examples/failures, they will probably end up just like them. Married/spawning young, abused or abuser, high-school dropouts destined to have countless police run-ins.
May 21, 2008
10:52 a.m.
Suggest removal
RightOn writes:
Holierthanthou-you are as hateful as anyone here.
And since you are so fond of Mexicans, I understand there might be a couple of them left in Mexico. Why don't go there? Enjoy.
May 21, 2008
10:52 a.m.