New schools for poor?

Urban education groups reviewing successful models

By Nancy Mitchell, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Monday, May 12, 2008

Photos By Carlos Javier Ortiz / Special To The Rocky

Denver principals Liz Aybar, left, and Rob Stein visit the original Noble Street Charter High School in Chicago on Wednesday. It is expanding to 14 campuses.

Some prominent Denver foundations are working on a plan that could create new schools for thousands of poor children in Colorado in the next few years.

The loose-knit group, called the New Schools Collaborative, includes the Piton Foundation, the Donnell-Kay Foundation and the Daniels Fund, names known for their work in urban education.

The idea is to pool money and knowledge to help jump-start the creation or replication of schools that have proved successful with students from low-income families.

That includes expanding homegrown models such as West Denver Preparatory Charter School on South Federal Boulevard, which Head of School Chris Gibbons wants to grow from a single school to three by 2015.

It also includes importing to Denver successful models such as Envision Schools of California.

Donnell-Kay is supporting a proposal to bring six middle and high schools to the metro area by 2013.

"Are low-income kids in urban communities being well served today? No," said Tony Lewis, head of the Donnell-Kay Foundation. "Will they be well served in 10 years just through school district efforts? No."

Goals of the New Schools Collaborative have hit as high as enrolling 40,000 students in as many as 10 new schools a year for the next 10 years.

Chicago model

But Lewis and Van Schoales, urban education officer at the Piton Foundation, are shying away from specific figures. They said they're still exploring how the group might operate.

In Chicago last week, Lewis met with leaders of the city's Renaissance Schools Fund, a nonprofit that has raised $44 million to help open 55 new schools since 2004.

Chief Operating Officer Connie McHugh said the fund has worked alongside Chicago Public Schools since the district announced its plan to add 100 new schools by 2010.

In addition to raising money - its total goal is $50 million - the fund assists in the selection of new schools and awards startup grants.

Lewis and Schoales also have visited New York City to look at how the private sector can partner with districts in creating new schools.

"Chicago is a better analogy than New York," Schoales said, "but I don't think you can replicate what they're doing."

"I think it will be hard for the business and foundation community in Denver to come up with $50 million," he added, "but it may not be hard for the business and foundation community to come up with something that is approaching that."

In New York City, the two are talking with Robert Hughes, whose nonprofit New Visions for Public Schools has launched 88 new high schools since 2001.

New schools movement

New York, like Chicago, is in the midst of a new schools initiative. The nation's largest district has added 230 schools in the past five years.

The push isn't from student numbers - neither school district is seeing a surge in enrollment.

Instead, it's a reform strategy that calls for closing large, low- performing schools and replacing them with several small, high-performing options.

Chicago has closed 19 schools; New York City has shuttered 55, with 25 more to close by 2010.

Supporters say research proves it's faster to fix a school by closing and then reopening it after an overhaul, than by trying to turn it around while keeping it open.

"Shut 'em down," agreed Timothy Knowles, with the Center for Urban School Improvement at the University of Chicago, "and they have to reopen with different conditions, or the conditions will repeat themselves."

Districts from Boston to Oakland, Calif., have started new schools offices, but some question whether the new schools movement isn't simply the latest education fad.

Teachers' unions, for one, tend to be critical. Many new schools are charters, or public schools operated by independent boards with nonunion staffs.

"We have to have grass-roots innovations in our district and charter schools are one option," said Kim Ursetta, president of the Denver Classroom Teachers Association. "But we also need to make sure our traditional public schools are meeting the needs of our kids, parents and teachers."

Denver's plan

That's one reason the union has applied to open a school in fall 2009, Ursetta said.

The DCTA proposal is among 19 received by Denver Public Schools in its first call for bids to open new schools.

DPS Superintendent Michael Bennet said there is no set goal for the number of new schools, either in 2009 or thereafter.

Creating new schools "is an important and essential piece of the reform," he said, "because we don't have enough of an array of choices for kids that meet the diverse needs in Denver."

But DPS' larger effort is instructional reform across the district, Bennet said, driven by a new accountability tool that measures growth in every school.

That tool, the School Performance Framework, will be used to ensure schools are making progress - and to decide when they face closure for lack of it.

Already, DPS middle and high school principals have been told they need to fill their schools or they may find themselves sharing space with new programs.

Some of the new schools approved to open in fall 2009 likely will be occupying district buildings.

The New Schools Collaborative would like some of that space.

"Of course we need partners," said Bennet, who is aware of the group. "We're interested in working with them just as we're interested in working with all high- quality providers from either inside or outside the school district."

A collaborative plan

Lewis and Schoales say they want to work with DPS - but also with Aurora, Colorado Springs and Pueblo.

They also say they're interested in more than charters, that traditional schools with innovative ideas could benefit as well.

For now, the New Schools Collaborative is focusing on how to work in three broad areas:

* Expanding schools that are successful with low-income students, whether already in Colorado or proven models from elsewhere.

* Creating a strong training program for new school leaders.

* Assisting new schools in finding buildings or working with districts to get them space in existing schools.

"I still feel like we're very much in the learning mode around this," said Schoales, who expects a public unveiling of the effort in September.

"But Denver has all these incredible opportunities," he added. "If Chicago and New York can do this, then what is keeping us from doing it and doing it much better?"

Results of the Chicago and New York efforts are promising, if preliminary.

Perhaps the strongest example of success comes from the work in New York City of New Visions for Public Schools. The nonprofit led the effort there to open new small high schools starting in 2002.

In October, an outside research firm released a report showing 78 percent of students in those schools graduated in four years, compared with 58 percent in New York City high schools on average.

Partners in Chicago, New York

Local foundations interested in partnering with Front Range school districts to create new schools are visiting other cities to see how their partnerships work. Here are two examples:

* CHICAGO: Renaissance Schools Fund

What it is: A nonprofit in the venture philanthropy mode, the fund has tapped businesses, foundations and individuals to raise $44 million as part of Renaissance 2010, the Chicago Public Schools' initiative to open 100 new schools by 2010.

Results: The fund has helped open 55 new schools since 2004. Early achievement results are promising. Students in the 55 schools spend more time in school: A pupil in a fund school will receive an average of 5.3 years more core instruction, from kindergarten through graduation, than peers in traditional schools.

Learn more: rsfchicago.org

* NEW YORK: New Visions for Public Schools

What it is: A nonprofit created in 1989 to improve New York City schools, the group has leveraged more than $250 million in private funding to create 122 small schools, bolster leadership training, and partner with more than 225 community, university and national education organizations.

Results: New Visions' New Century High School Initiative, creating 88 small high schools in 2002, achieved a 78 percent graduation rate. That's 20 percentage points higher than the citywide average graduation rate.

Learn more: newvisions.org

Creating new schools

School districts across the country are launching "new schools" offices as part of their reform efforts. Here's a look at what Denver Public Schools is doing:

* DPS' New Schools Office: Announced last fall, the office is charged with recruiting, selecting and overseeing new high-quality programs. DPS announced last week that former Martin Luther King Middle School Principal Michael Gaither will be in charge.

* How it works: DPS issued its first call for new school proposals in March, specifically seeking quality middle and high school models. To date, 19 groups have applied to run a school starting in fall 2009. Selection of new schools is expected in July.

* Who can apply? Anyone can submit a proposal. The first group of applicants includes the Denver teachers union, DPS Distance Learning Department and Edison Schools Inc., a charter network.

* Isn't DPS closing schools? DPS is closing eight low-performing schools this spring. Most districts using this strategy are closing large struggling schools, while opening smaller, higher-performing programs, sometimes in the same buildings.

A collaboration

A group of local foundations has been meeting for several months to figure out how to support the creation of new schools in poor communities along Colorado's Front Range. Some key players:

* The Piton Foundation: Created in 1976 by Denver oilman Sam Gary and funded by the Gary-Williams Energy Corp. to improve opportunities for low-income families. Education is a key focus. Learn more at piton.org

* Donnell-Kay Foundation: Created in 1965 and now led by Allen Dines, a former Colorado state legislator, its mission is to improve public education through systemic school reform. Learn more at dkfoundation.org

* Daniels Fund: Created in 1998 by Denver cable magnate Bill Daniels, it perhaps is best known in education for its scholarships to disadvantaged students. Learn more at danielsfund.org

mitchelln@RockyMountainNews.com or 303-954-5245

• May 12, 2008

  3:39 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  Mr. Bennet, you once worked for the most powerful and competitive businessman in Colorado; study Mr. Gibbons closely, he is on top of the game in education.

• May 12, 2008

  3:50 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  happymike44 writes:

  What are you going to do with the gang bangers send them back to mexico.Also why do we need better schools just for the poor.Sounds like the ignorant kids will get more spent on them then the other students.Seems a little biased against the kids who want to learn.We would be better off spending the money to improve the whole system instead of for a select few.Sounds like discimination against the kids who do learn no matter what.If I was a parent I would wonder how is this going to affect my child.Also how do you select the ignorant kids from the rest.Also how do we know this will not end up discriminating against some kids but not others.

• May 12, 2008

  4:58 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  happymike: "...how do youselect ignorant kids from the rest." Got your name in the hat, pal?

• May 12, 2008

  5:49 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  jane writes:

  Wondering how it will effect your kid is a good question. Charter schools filter money from neighborhood schools. It will effect everyone because their neighborhood schools will no longer be an option. Some schools are already not an option, but the increase in charters has seen some neighborhood schools that were good go down hill because of decreased enrollment and flight of the middle class. Now neighborhood people are forced to go through the "choice process", when they would much rather have a decent neighborhood school. Why do you think people move to the suburbs? So their kids can go to the neighborhood school without going through the labors and transportation nightmares of school-choice. I'm glad to see Michael Bennett say that the primary focus of Denver's reform is on ALL SCHOOLS, not just specialty schools.

• May 12, 2008

  6:36 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Earl writes:

  why create special schools for the poor? take the money and give it out in the form of vouchers and see where it will be spent. I do feel dps would scream real loud at that one. is special school a new code word for spanish speaking only?

• May 12, 2008

  7:01 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Froward69 writes:

  republicans systematic dismantling of public schools is the culprit here. Funding of public schools, starting with preschool and continuing through college. Funding after school activities such as athletics would curb that "Mexican gang" problem republicans like to push. yet they are racist enough to want to eliminate education for everyone but their own kids. continuing the problem they have issue with.

  Keeping the populace stupid, believing their propaganda and voting republican/hate. Is the underlying truth to republican motives.

• May 12, 2008

  7:02 a.m.

  tiero writes:

  (This comment was removed by the site staff.)

• May 12, 2008

  7:21 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  When every public school in your neighborhood, in my case Godsman Elementary, Force Elementary, and Schmitt Elementary are functioning way below academic standards, what does a parent do? Not one elemetary school, except Mc Kinley-Thatcher which is out of my neighborhood but the closest school to achieve above average results, is even at grade level, not one. West Denver Prep is advancing children far above thier grade levels to thier maximum ability, as Mr. Gibbons feels Denver Public schools has set the bar way to low even at satisfactory grade levels as established. For years the drop out rates, poor academic achievement, teachers unoins, poor leadership, has plagued our schools. Today is a new day, and fresh ideas are being put into action, and the ones who benifit the most are our children. DPS has failed for so many children for so many years, I hope Mr. Bennet can bring a change. I never saw a man make a silk purse out of a sows ear, Mr. Gibbons has been doing just that. He took the kids in by lottery, made no difference thier ability, and he is bring these kids to not only thier grade level, but above thier grade level. To be fair to Mr. Bennet, he has a much harder task as DPS has firmly entrenched itself in failure. It seems there are those who'll fight to keep it that way. Mr. Bennet's former job brought him in close proximity to one of Colorado's most competitive and successful businessmen. You do not achieve the position Mr. Bennet achieved with this man unless you're the brightest and on top of your game. Mr. Bennet is DPS's one bright light to get out of tunnel of years of failures. I wish him well, it's all uphill. It's going to take time to fix DPS; some of us just didn't have the time to waste in our children's education.

• May 12, 2008

  7:54 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Froward69 writes:

  LOUIE, reading to, interacting with, and listening to your kids will help them achieve higher than average test scores regardless of the school they attend.
  dropping off your rug rats at school without pushing them to succeed does not help.
  laying all the blame on the teachers and the school does nothing to encourage parents to become active in their child's education.

• May 12, 2008

  8:36 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  SASQUATCH writes:

  So, the Big Money is saying with its own money--not tax money--that the DPS is failing our kids. Its not the tests, its the schools, the teachers and the union bureaucracy. The union controlled monopoly appears forever incapable of ever (never) fixing itself and getting it right. One failure follows the latest failure, never failing to ever get it right. The only folks benefiting from it all are those Ritter incompetents and stumblebums who make their living serving on his never-ending and failed Blue Ribbon Commissions.

  Monopolies are always hostile to the consumer. The only way out is competition and choice. Vouchers, tax credits, etc.

• May 12, 2008

  8:46 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  Not true. My wife and I put hours into our daughter and her achievements. I went everyday to her school (Godsman) and was lied to over and over. They said she was gifted and gave me a paper to have her tested; she was reading three grade levels below and one grade level behind in math. Today, thanks to West Denver Prep my daughter is still one level lower in reading, and far above in mathmatics in less than a year. Mr. Gibbons kept his promise. If I'm pulling my hair out at 12 midnite on my child's homework ( I didn't pass the 8th grade), I am free to call her teacher no matter what hour of the night at home. Call your kid's teacher in the middle of the night, I have and she answers. My daughter works for me in business, has her own office downtown. She earns her own paycheck by working my counters, packing, cleaning, whatever is needed. She has to earn a paycheck with Mr. Gibbons. I cared everyday and DPS lied, denied and failed my daughter and never let us know. One principal at Godsman did away with homework; her excuse was no back packs allowed cuts down on theft of school property. Glad she's gone! No, DPS has been selling the public bowls of ice cream, I don't like Rocky Road! Mr. Bennet is thier one shot at change, he's bright enough for sure, and like Mr. Gibbons knows what it's going to take in the real world for a kid to compete. DPS stands for Damn Pitiful Situation, hopefully Mr. Bennet can outlast the entrenched failures.

• May 12, 2008

  9:09 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  vudumom writes:

  So once again students who come from middle class families are left out in the cold. We can't afford to send our children to private school. Both our children are at the tops of their classes and beyond. The school system is teaching a dumbed down system and the only reason why our children are ahead of their grade levels are because my husband and I work with them at home.My kids have been stuck in a horrible elementary school for years. One is going into middle school and one will be homeschooled for the upcoming school year.
  Our children make their school look good so there are no options for them. They assess at their level and the school looks good. It makes the teacher look like she taught something and everyone is happy, right? Wrong.
  There are many children like mine who are stuck in the vicious cycle of passing their grade level,looking great on paper but actually are never taught beyond their actual level unless their parents step up and teach them. I will not send my child another year to sit and do an entire curriculum that she knows before starting that grade. That was the case this school year and the school promised me a stepped up program. What my daughter got was 8 extra spelling words per week and a extra math paper given to her in no particular order. My husband and I were supposed to teach her the math. The teacher was too busy teaching single number addition ,while giving my daughter addition and subtraction of mixed fractions.
  So once again the kids who are supported at home , excelling in their classes and the grade levels are in and can't afford private school are left out. Once again no one considers the students stuck in a mediocre school, in a mediocre learning program , with a mediocre teacher is left behind.
  What do you have to do to get a top-notch education? Be poor or rich? The rest are left languishing in mediocracy. As long as the schools numbers look good, right?

• May 12, 2008

  9:30 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  American100 writes:

  This is a win win situation.

  The school systems have dumbed down for the benefit of the poor populations. Those are generally the kids who don't get enough support at home and/or in the classroom.

  The schools spoken of address these issues, ideally requiring less dumbing down and hopefully resulting in a higher educational standard for everyone.

• May 12, 2008

  9:55 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  medina88 writes:

  I believe that DPS are just a dump. when I moved back to Denver in 98 I was NOT going to move into Denver County just for the fact that I didn't want my kids going to their schools. For a very short time my son had to attend 1st grade at Knapp. What a very scary place to put a child. there was chains and locks on the gates and doors, it was tagged every where, and half the kids didn't talk english. The way they ran that school was a waste of money. I moved my child to jefferson county which was better. I had one bad experience with Jeffco and moved my kids out of that school too. This is a mistake and I agree that money is being given to children whose parents don't care about helping them and maybe some parents can't due to the language barrier. This is how we are losing students to gangs, crime and low paying jobs. It's really not the kids fault. It's parenting. If parents were able to get more involved with schooling and homework and disapline their children when it comes to school work, things would be alot different.

• May 12, 2008

  10:02 a.m.

  The_Punnisher writes:

  (This comment was removed by the site staff.)

• May 12, 2008

  10:44 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  medina88 writes:

  Punnisher, these are children and it's not their fault. Most of them are probably legal but their parents are not. I think they should all be entitled to an education but with not having to hold up our children during class time. I think what needs to be done is instead of opening this school, the funds should go to seperate classrooms for ESL classes. I know many don't agree with this but if these children are legal, they are part of the future and we may as well teach them right then not teach them at all. If their parents are deported and they return to Mexcio with them, remember they were born here they can always come back.

• May 12, 2008

  10:52 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  nuclied writes:

  I couldn't agree more with vudumom's assesment of the situation. Again, the shriking middle class is left out in the cold. I've never understood how much more of a leg up we can give the "underserved". There are english as a second language classes, free school lunches, free to little pay healthcare, food stamps, and many other social services for the "underserved" poor in this state...many of whom may or may not be legally using these services. I'm very proud of our country for being able to provide such services, but at what cost to the rest of the community...such as those who are by no means rich, but do not quality for such services, pay their taxes, and live check to check barely squeeking out a living for their family while gladly making do with what they have while not relying on government assistance? While meeting someone's social agenda I'm sure, I don't think that private schools for the poor would be the best way to serve and fix education issues in general do you...really?

• May 12, 2008

  11:34 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Seabreezes writes:

  Okay, I read this article twice, and didn't find a mention of race. Is it just assumed that if you're poor, you're not white? Well, I hate to burst that bubble, but I was a poor (income) student back in the day, and had it not been for my parents driving me crazy to study, I'd probably be one of these xenophobes spouting off about illegals. Good thing I can read, though, eh? And yes, I went to public schools the entire time.

• May 12, 2008

  12:03 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  PajamaPulitzer writes:

  Froward69:

  It is entirely likely that your statements are among the most patently ignorant and unsupportable ever made.

  There has been zero "republicans systematic dismantling of public schools" (sic). In fact, public school systems have grown to behemoth proportions and have become more and more unmanageable. Virtually every public schools system in the nation receives higher funding annually and rewards the public with poorer and poorer performance.

  I will admit that dismantling the public schools would be the best single step toward improving education and I would love to be present at the destruction.

  In case you haven't paid attention, the uneducated tend to vote for democrats and their nanny state. When educated folks who increase their earnings start paying exorbitant taxes they tend vote for conservatives. You've got your scenarios quite backward. Must be that public school education of yours.

• May 12, 2008

  12:29 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  medina88 writes:

  norsegod88-yes but legally..your born here, your a citizen. That's the way it is.

• May 12, 2008

  12:40 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  medina88 writes:

  Seabreezes- you are right, it doesn't say that. The_Punnisher made a comment and I jumped on it. I know how hard it is for American's to accept foreighners but I do happen to have a soft spot for them and think every one deserves an education. Just finding the right way to do it is the problem. Schools use our children to gain financial stability for their schools. They don't even turn in the CSAP scores on the lower scores made by ESL students and some IEP students. The school system is an ugly thing to get into.

• May 12, 2008

  1:23 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  i agree with you Medina. my son was in DPS (supposedly one of the better schools in North Denver) then we moved him to Jeffco two years ago. DPS told me he was at reading level reading a million words a year for 3 years, only trouble was they never stopped to see if he was comprehending what he was reading and his math was awful. Jeffco found out he's 2 years behind in reading but making huge progress now and his math is greatly improved.
  DPS passes these kids no matter what and they tell parents what they want to hear. I went to Knapp when I was little, bad education but good times. WestWood!!!

  Louie you should write for the RMN. I enjoy and learn a lot from your posts. I don't care how far you got in school, it seems you have made the proper corrections and have grown through your struggles. I would like to see more of you especially on the immigration issues. Keep up the good work.

  People like Vudumom and happymike don't like anything helping minorities or poor as they think the world revolves around their white bread ideals. I'm glad somebody is at least making an effort for these kids. I've mentored and coached a lot of them over the years and I would love to see some light shined for them finally.
  Illegal immigration has absolutely nothing to do hear as these kids are most likely legal.

  Funny how people on here think it's ok to look down on others based on perception through the media and from afar. Some of you don't realize how truly hateful you sound and only show that you poor souls still live in a world where everything is only black and white.You are being robbed of a beautiful life because of fear and a judgmental chip on your shoulder. I don't care how much you home school your kids, if that's the values your teaching them, your the one mis-educating your own children

• May 12, 2008

  1:27 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  happymike44 writes:

  What I do not like to see is the kids be seperated into classes.That is called segregation if I am right.So why even do this how about funding more teachers and teachers Aide's in the classes.Als how about less kids to a class.Because the one's who lose will be the midle class.Not quite rich enough for private school.Bt just enough to not qualify for the nice new special schools.The solution is more teachers in the schools to help thekids.When I went to school my parents helped me every night.That was before t.v. and after dinner.

• May 12, 2008

  2:09 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  davies writes:

  Pajama, thank you so much. I am so tired of Froward and his/her knee-jerk, simplistic, one-party-is-to-blame-for-everything attitude. His/her rants remind me of the insistent braying of a jackass, over and over again. The problem is never complex; is never the result of a set of interrelated circumstances and/or unintended outcomes. Nope, the root cause of everything bad is Republican greed, or bigotry, or both.

  Happymike, I think your parents should have spent a little MORE time with you, working on the concepts of punctuation and sentence structure.

• May 12, 2008

  3 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  medina88 writes:

  ONEman...love your writing!! We see lots of things on the same levels. We are all human, we should all be treated the same.

  Happymike...best thing you have said all day!

  "how about funding more teachers and teachers Aide's in the classes"

  Instead of cutting the teacher's income, let's hire more help for them. 25 kids to one teacher and one Para is not enough. I believe if we take care of the teachers they won't get frustrated and back off. They'll try harder to treat each student equally. School is not about who is poor and who has money. There are rich kids and poor kids in every school. There's a bigger picture to look at.

• May 12, 2008

  3:19 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Fresh writes:

  As long as there are no illegal immigrants benefitting from thisfrom this it sounds ok to me

• May 12, 2008

  3:31 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  Right on Medina. Nuff respect brotha!

  What I've noticed is that yuppies from the burbs tend to blame their problems on other people because they believe that they are entitled to a perfect life.

  On the other hand while poor and minorities tend to do whatever they have to do to survive, because they know nobody gives a sh** about Americas poor and uneducated. So while we don't always do the right things, mainly because of the cycle of failure, crime and substance abuse for generations on end. We don't blame others for our problems, we just don't make enough effort to correct them.

  I guess my point is... if I may quote Kanye West for a moment,

  "N-N-now that that don't kill me, can only make me stronger."

• May 12, 2008

  3:46 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  Ooops did I say minority? Viva igualdad de la Gente! translation: Viva equality of the People!

• May 12, 2008

  4:15 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  davies writes:

  ONEman, 'yuppies in the burb' are just trying to live their lives like any other group of people. Some are good hard working people and some aren't. If you choose to disparage them as if they are all the same, then you are no different than those who generalize and disparage minorities and poor people. Except you're probably more self-righteous.

• May 12, 2008

  4:20 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Fresh writes:

  oneman , why don't you just admit you are an illegal supporter (or an illegal yourself ) I bet your family is full of them.

• May 12, 2008

  4:30 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  BetterEducated writes:

  Exploring the topic of Denver schools is like passing through the Looking Glass. Everything is upside down or inside out.
  OK, here's where I show how dumb I really am: I thought the public schools were already in operation for poor people and rich people and ...
  Back to the drawing board, or chess board, or whatever the heck it is over on this side of the Glass.
  As I child, I rather enjoyed the idea of Alice's fictional disorientation, but as an adult -- I am ready to wake up any time now, please.

• May 12, 2008

  4:31 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  holekeeper writes:

  ONEman,
  You are going to sit there and tell us that you dont blame other people for things I say that is a bold faced lie. The prisons are full of under privillaged criminals saying that they are there because they wernt loved enough, the government screwed them, or its the police officers fault. I was poor growing up with two drug addict parents, I lived poor until I was out of college.
  Guess how I paid for college, student loans and the GI Bill. If I want to go back I can always go back into the national guard. If you work for things you will get the things you want. How much does the poor and uneducated need to be handed. Free food, section 8 for housing, free school with grants, medicade, free prescriptions, and wic. I have to pay for all of that. If you want better schools put pressure on the public schools to change, and this is the best way. Before the charter school came to our town none of the elementry schools were any good, now they are all doing better when they lost that funding. and I am sorry saying the poor do what they can to survive is a load of bull, its an excuse to commit crimes and then lay blame on everybody else because we didnt care enough.

• May 12, 2008

  5:12 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  Well holekeeper I'm speaking for the ones who learn from their prison and life experience. See I would probably know more about that since I actually know the people of which I speak, not making generalizations about people based on perception. So when you morons try to make it seem like we're all like that you only make yourself stupid. We know there are people like that and there are different circumstances for different people that's just the reality of it, but most are just trying to tread water to keep our heads above water. We don't judge eachother for our faliures as you do. We understand it's part of life and everyman has to make his own way, if you choose the illegal route then you must be willing to accept the consequences of your actions. Which most do regardless of what you know it alls think. I don't condone crime and violence at all but I also understand that it's been bread into our people for years. So while I don't practice this lifestyle, I don't llok down on the lost ones who do. I offer a hand and an attitude that change starts with you and only you can decide to change for the better.

  But for those of you who are saying I'm chosing to disparage yuppies from the suburbs as if they are all the same. I don't go out looking to blame problems on them or degrade them by calling names or things that take away from their character. I'm on;y standing up for what I believe to be falsehoods created by people who don't have any idea other than TV.newspapers and the latest politician garb stats. I live in harmony with people because I don't judge a book by it's cover. So you see I'm not a hate monger looking for a witch to burn. I'm just saying what I said of Doug Bruce...

  If you live in a glass house, then maybe you should'nt throw stones.

• May 12, 2008

  5:24 p.m.

  ONEman writes:

  (This comment was removed by the site staff.)

• May 12, 2008

  5:30 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  holekeeper writes:

  Did you read my post? I lived it. I chose the right way. And I will cast down the people that have committed crimes. I dont live in a glass house. I worked in a max security prison for 2 years and you wont sit there and tell me that "most" take responsibility. You assume because I daid that I am no longer poor that I am a rich. I am not. so you help all you want and I hope you do some good, but you cant sit there and tell me that they take responsibility, and dont blame others. I have lived it sir.

• May 12, 2008

  5:48 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  Welll in a prison I would think that is the way it is. Is there much rehabilitation going on. Once one has gotten themselves to prison, I would'nt think that thinking has much to do with anything thus the stay.

  But I will say that once a mans freedom is taken away and given back it causes him to think at least a little about accepting responsibility and not going back. Now granted that is for someone who was fortunate to have at least someone to whisper a hint of any kind of responsibility honor and integrity to them. Then there are others who have already made those choices that you really can't take back and just accept the bad as who they are.

  But I'm finding new ways to deal with people who know no love and are just lost in hopelessness and contrary to popular belief. There are more who want to forget their past and make the world better for our kids. You just don't see it if you live in a hole of bigotry because for some reason that's just not front page news and most don't really care or want to hear about it because it's easier to live in a world that they already have all figured out .

• May 12, 2008

  6:10 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Fresh writes:

  Well oneman, I am a veteran who has actually seen combat.
  
  I see your family has taken the easy way to getting what they want. This explains ALOT about your positions and pandering to the illegals.

  that is all I needed to know

• May 12, 2008

  6:45 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  So what do you know? Nothing was easy pal if you only knew the struggle. I've actually said that the grandpa should write a book on their lives. You would'nt believe or even possibly fathom these things if I told you. That is a small part of my family and they're actually in-laws but still some of the nicest hard working people I've ever met. So what am I supposed to be intimidated that you don't approve? They worked hard for everything and my blood family who has had all men in some branch of service but one and he's going to school to be engineer at Arizona. This just shows me how full of sh** you really are. Always pretending to be all knowing and never wrong. Your closure is about as closed the mouth you probably spew garbage out of daily.

  Wow so your saying to me, that since you saw combat, that my duty was worthless? Buddy we had many humanitarian efforts and were as ready for battle as you. What a smudge to the brotherhood, to hold your service over mine. I was there to serve with my all for all. I served aboard the U.S.S. Arkansas CGN-41.

  You know sh** pal.

• May 12, 2008

  7:04 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Fresh writes:

  listen you foolish imbecile,
  You are the only one diminishing your service. I never said anything about your service, INFACT, you are the one that brought it up in the first place ( as if you were so high and mighty ), so I mentioned MINE in response. ( BTW combat verterans service should be held in higher regard then those who are not ).

  I am sure everyone of your " in laws " hardships were SELF inflicted. This is something illegals NEVER understand. their so called TOUGH life to get here and live is a product of them BREAKING THE GAWD DAMN LAW!!!!! to get here. COMPRENDE ?

  Coming from you I'll take my life and experiences 10 fold over anything you have done in your life. Again, I have never claimed to KNOW everything or that I am never wrong, that is just a bunch of BS that you spew to make yourself look like I am picking on you.

• May 12, 2008

  7:26 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  Some years ago, a Denver Police officer now retired named Ray Pitt was caught in a hell of a fight at the civic center park with a man my size. His utility belt was slidding down and this guy was kicking ass and was going to grab his gun. Ray was in no position to stop the man, the rent-a-cops and the rest of the good people wouldn't help him as they were scared of this huge man. I jumped in and got the guy down and pinned him. Ray collected his belt, secured his gun, and put the cuffs on. Later, I had to go to court, Cory Dillon was the prosecutor. I was fresh out of Florida State prison. That day I made a life long friend In Cory not to mention Ray. I said it then and I'll say it now, you never know who's steps your going to find yourself on in your hour of need. All those good people stood there while a cop was going down. Last time I saw Cory was at a public meeting with Tax and Excise on a booze licence for a pal of mine who owns several nightclubs. Last year a prosecutor put me on a jury trial even after I explained to the court my extensive criminal record as a young man. 100's of arrests, one conviction. My crimes were coast to coast as a young man. Didn't matter they picked me. After the trial I asked the prosecutor why, she said it was my honor and truthfulness. Only 2 commandments I never broke. Today, I am who I am. My friends come from every walk in life. Judges, cops, federal agents, to the little old ladys struggling to make ends meet. I haven't disappointed them in over twenty years. Thier forgiveness means a lot to me. I stood in a room full of police brass when my good freind Detective Dennis Aniya (spelling incorrect sorry Dennis) retired. Got a big hug from Ms. LaDonna that made me comfortable as she knows a fish out of water when she sees one; Lord knows I wasn't exactly comfortable standing there. I told my friend of many years that his retirement as a cop was like a convict getting out of prison, aren't you happy to get out in one piece? He gave me a look that said it all. Most of my fellow cons don't quit, most are never going to be responsible for thier actions, true enough. You don't want to forgive me fine, I'll still stand up for you.

• May 12, 2008

  7:44 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  Never, because I could care less what you think. You give yourself way too much credit and also showed that you are way passed your prime and bitter that you no longer matter in todays society. You have an awful habit of assuming that you know everything about everyone. It seems you just a bitter ol' cuss.

  Once again claiming to insult those who you know nothing about. Your a parrot that rants about anything. I don't expect you to see passed your bi-focals and see the world for what is is today. I would think a war veteran would be able to adapt not sit and whine. Just crawl in your whole and go away. Your Fresh alright like a steaming pile of doo doo.

• May 12, 2008

  7:57 p.m.

  ONEman writes:

  (This comment was removed by the site staff.)

• May 12, 2008

  8:15 p.m.

  ONEman writes:

  (This comment was removed by the site staff.)

• May 12, 2008

  8:26 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  One last thing for sake of clarity. I have one felony conviction as an adult. I never count my juvenile record or misdemeanors which are like speeding tickets in the world of crime. I keep forgeting the good people tally the misdemeanors as well. Sorry about the omission.

• May 12, 2008

  8:50 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  Fellas, I respect you both, enjoy reading your comments; how did this ever get started, why did you guys let it get so deep and personal; I enjoy reading your posts, you both offer up a great deal to be considered. God knows how many people I've disagreed with, who acually served to educate my ever evolving opinion and thoughts. Gentleman for all the sake civility can you reconcile this most unsettling discord ? I pick up a lot of good stuff from both of you, even if I don't always agree. I am sure neither one of you enjoy or want this personal fight to go on for ever; but hell, I could be wrong. It's a real waste of your talents. I apologize for putting my nose where it doesn't belong, but your both intelligent men.

• May 12, 2008

  9:25 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  Louie,

  Once again I'm learning from you and I see your point but,
  Fresh always comes at me with some b.s. when I'm on a board. Every time he uses immigration as his motivation even when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Like this one for instance.

  When I was younger I had to deal with an older kid who liked to pick on me. After a good month of getting my ass kicked my grandpa told me , "sometimes there's only one way to get through to a punk. One day I punched him dead in his nose and kicked him in his mouth causing him to swallow a filling or two. It was a bit over board but he had it coming and he never bothered me again. Guess I just developed a bad taste in my mouth for people who like to pick on others for no good reason.

  But I do know the old adage about getting in a pissing contest with a prik and all. But this guy always starts with me so I just give him back the same. He does'nt upset me if anything he amuses me. So as long as I'm not letting him infect me with his poison, I will be his Huckleberry if he wants to play verbal joust. Because in a physical joust he stands no chance.

• May 12, 2008

  9:38 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  This is where his ramblings started.

  Posted by Fresh on May 12, 2008 at 4:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

  oneman , why don't you just admit you are an illegal supporter (or an illegal yourself ) I bet your family is full of them.

  Huh?..... What?.......what does that have to do with this?

• May 13, 2008

  4:25 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  ...and I thought it was about convicts, okay. Oneman, I have three stepsons who are hispanic that I raised since they were 2,3,and 4. They are in thier 20's now, and I lost my middle son to a drunk driver on Christmas. I have 2 anglo daughters, one in medical school, one who I am still raising. I have 4 grand children, 2 are anglo, 1 is half Blackfoot Indian, one is half Puerto Rican. My forgiveness has come from people of all different colors, when your a jerk like me, you take love wherever you can find it. The lady I mentioned earlier, Ms. LaDonna, she hugs me, you'd think I was her kid. She doesn't care if I lack color. I work for a very wealthy Italian who grew up poor in the streets of New York. Because we are like brothers, I am not an employee. Employees are not required to lay down thier life, I am. I've already taken one bullet in the course of business, but being shot is nothing to being on fire. That's a bitch. Everyday I pump iron cause I never know whats going to happen. Every day for the last twenty years of my life I have had to account truthfully to an array of law enforcement personel, twice each week I talk with these people. If I judged everyone by color, I'd still be sitting on the curb. So let them nail you to a cross, just pick your pals carefully; walk around those who are caught up in the shallowness of color. Let me tell you, being white in a southern prison wasn't easy pal; you will learn to get along. One day you'll see a kid and you're not going to care what color, you're going to help him. you're going to do this because of all the wonderful people who forgave you. There are going to be some people you just have to walk away from, just don't carry it to the next man. Sad to see you fellas fight over something like this. I don't know how to help you two out of it, in this world I always took love and forgiveness wherever I could find it. I guess you can say it's a by-product of being state raised.

• May 13, 2008

  6:48 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  holekeeper writes:

  Louie,
  If the prisons were filled with inmates like you the over crowding would not be an issue. I hope you are proud of your self and I hope the best for you. I was not trying to make this a prison thing but I got frustrated. I just wanted to point out that most dont take responsibility for thier actions. In fact very few do. I have made mistakes and have had to live with what I have done. I am sorry if it seemed like I was trying to groupe the few people like you that there are in this world. I know that not every one is like how I posted but I get sick of excuses from people. If I was able to make it out of the cycle I feel that everybody can and when they use excuses it just really makes me mad.

• May 13, 2008

  11:33 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  redwhiteandBLUE writes:

  IT'S NOT...ABOUT 'COLOR' IT'S ABOUT 'THE RULE OF LAW'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  BROKEN LAWS!!!! CONTINUING TO BRAKE LAWS!!!

• May 13, 2008

  1:21 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  happymike44 writes:

  When you do not provide the opportunity to kids.Then you lose them to gangs and the other types of criminal elements.No kids should ever grow up unwanted or abused.This is the reason so many kids end up in the life of crime.Then some kids have it all and fall into the life of crime.So how do we tell who needs the most help.I have no children of my own.I became the parent of three of my brothers children.Now everyone of them have the one thing I could not get being their parent.A degree all three made it out of college.One teaches as a football coach and the second one teaches english.My third one died last year in a freak accident.But I did all I could and gave up what ever it took to give them a chance.To be the best people this world deserves.

• May 13, 2008

  2:22 p.m.

  Fresh writes:

  (This comment was removed by the site staff.)

• May 13, 2008

  2:32 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  That is your intelligence hard at work Fresh? How old are you?
  All those years of experience... according to you. This is the best you can do in countering an argument? Pathetic pal, just plain pathetic.

• May 13, 2008

  2:36 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  ONEman writes:

  Louie I feel you on your stance and I will take heed to your words. I'm truly sorry for your loss as also with you happymike. Sounds like both of you are real stand up guys.

• May 13, 2008

  4:01 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  mrNiceGuy writes:

  What was the article about again? Oh yeah, educating the poor. Almost forgot, did you?

• May 13, 2008

  6:37 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  Okay, let me see if I can be constructive. First, you don't hire felons, prostitutes, drug habits and the likes to work in schools with children. Mrs. Jones, I understand your reasoning to want to help at risk kids. Your heart is right, your mechanics are the problem. You identify the kid(s) with the need, talk to thier parents and explain your concerns, then you set aside time after school and get a convict with a proven track record, respect, and honor like Leon Kelly to come in and address these kids. Leon has earned a great measure of respect. Secondly, sex offenders are trash, even to convicts; if we can't tolerate them as convicts, why would you? Third, your second in charge should have an accounting background and know the law governing public money and the schools finacial affairs and obligations, since it is apparent your weak in this area. Fourth, fingerprint your people and establish a rapport with law enforcement. Pay them and put the onus of error on them. Lastly, I don't care if you call your school Sing-Sing and study opera, you are accountable to the state for your academic product. You're on probation which means you need to improve. I can't help you with advise on that for lack of my own academic ability. Nothing wrong with teaching ethnic pride, but teach it responsibly. Teach them about other cultures other than thier own so they can walk with a greater understanding of this great country and it's melting pot of many. This way, you will insure thier greater success in our society where all of us pay for your right to be proud of your ethnic heritage. Otherwise people will think you're schooling a bunch of ethnic terrorists which won't serve society, nor child well unless they plan to be the future Rap Brown. I hope you turn this sad situation around, and I pray for the truth in case you have been unfairly accused of some of these sad events. Good luck girl, at least your heart was right, just need better insight and help to achieve your goals. The crux of all issues is the children.

• May 13, 2008

  6:44 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  Wrong thread, sorry guys; I thought I was on the charter school investigation. Sorry!