Killing CSAP is a very creative solution

Gary Leininger, Lakewood

Sunday, May 11, 2008

Here we go again . . . no one likes the poor results from the recent CSAP third-graders' tests ("CSAP may be on its way out/Essentially flat scores since '01 signal need for different approach," May 2).

But what is the common thread between these third-graders and the third-graders of past years? Of course! It was the same curriculum or the same teachers or the same administrators or the same test. So why kill the test? Why not change the real culprit(s): the teachers and the curriculum?

But wait - let's not do that. Rather, let's change the test so that we can declare the students competent and then give the students scholarships to attend a higher education program of their choice in Colorado. In that way we can fund the colleges and universities that will accept these undereducated students at the university level!

Now that is a creative solution! It means that when these students graduate from college and cannot find a job in Colorado because they are undereducated, they can leave the state and take our educational problem with them! Wow! Kudos' to the governor and the legislature - problem solved.

• May 12, 2008

  6:10 a.m.

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  Tom writes:

  So what was THAT unintelligible rant about?

• May 12, 2008

  6:13 a.m.

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  a_watcher writes:

  Anyone who follows my comments will know that I am a conservative. Sorry to burst your bubble, but CSAP is a giant waste of taxpayer funds.

  It doesn't measure schools, or teachers. What it measures is the seriousness with which parents in the surrounding neighborhood take education.

  The poor are poor in part because they don't value education. The wealthy are wealthy because they do. More than anything else, CSAP meausres the value that parents in surrounding neighborhoods place on education. Poorly performing schools are in poor neighborhoods and well performing schools are in wealthy neighborhoods.

  Let's find another measure for schools that doesn't simply feed back the economic status of the neighborhood. We already have that data from other sources.

• May 12, 2008

  7:52 a.m.

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  Earl writes:

  hey here is an idea, lets give the kiddies a simple test to see if they can read write and do math at grade level. we can ask questions from the past that a lot of older people had to answer and see how they do.
  csap is about accountability of education and it is showing that it is failing.
  a_watch please come up with a tool to measure socio-economic status and the relationship to the learning in those groups. that way poor learners will show up in the lower groups and the best learners in the upper groups economically.
  BTW dps is looking into new schools just for the poor to get them out of it. guess they too believe that public education is failing but wont come out and say so. so why would dps want new schools for the poor if the system is so wonderful now? vouchers anyone?

• May 12, 2008

  7:52 a.m.

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  jacka writes:

  How about vouchers and more school choice. That way those that live in the 'poor' areas could have a choice (benefit) of having their kids educated a bit better. You know with like minded parents who value education. And those in 'rich' areas could find other options to loaf and thus transition to the idiot class faster.

  Competition is a nasty measure of reality.

• May 12, 2008

  8:09 a.m.

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  Froward69 writes:

  when you have no interaction with your kids in regard to their education then you get out what you put in. vouchers are nothing more than siphoning funds away from public schools and continuing the erosion of our middle class.
  home school is fear of interaction with children of other backgrounds.
  I do agree, "Competition is a nasty measure of reality." however empowering your children with the abilities to compete, in a wide and varied group of peers. (public schools) Gives the child a better head start to deal with the realities of competition in society as adults.

• May 12, 2008

  8:45 a.m.

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  AngelontheSidelines writes:

  Schools do not exist to do anything other than pump out mindless consumers. See John Taylor Gatto's The Six Lesson Schoolteacher;
  http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

  The first lesson I teach is: "Stay in the class where you belong." I don't know who decides that my kids belong there but that's not my business. The children are numbered so that if any get away they can be returned to the right class. Over the years the variety of ways children are numbered has increased dramatically, until it is hard to see the human being under the burden of the numbers each carries.

  The second lesson I teach kids is to turn on and off like a light switch. I demand that they become totally involved in my lessons, jumping up and down in their seats with anticipation, competing vigorously with each other for my favor. But when the bell rings I insist that they drop the work at once and proceed quickly to the next work station.

  The third lesson I teach you is to surrender your will to a predestined chain of command. Rights may be granted or withheld, by authority, without appeal.

  The fourth lesson I teach is that only I determine what curriculum you will study. (Rather, I enforce decisions transmitted by the people who pay me).

  In lesson five I teach that your self-respect should depend on an observer's measure of your worth. My kids are constantly evaluated and judged. A monthly report, impressive in its precision, is sent into students' homes to spread approval or to mark exactly -- down to a single percentage point -- how dissatisfied with their children parents should be.

  In lesson six I teach children that they are being watched. I keep each student under constant surveillance and so do my colleagues. There are no private spaces for children; there is no private time. Class change lasts 300 seconds to keep promiscuous fraternization at low levels. Students are encouraged to tattle on each other, even to tattle on their parents. Of course I encourage parents to file their own child's waywardness, too.

• May 12, 2008

  9:29 a.m.

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  kickjaa65 writes:

  Dear Mr. Leininger, I cannot tell you what a pleasure it is to wake up to yet another Monday morning critic who bashes my job without ever having set foot in my classroom. I am a hard working teacher who has high expectations for all of my students. I have a simple philosophy, "If a student is present, a student can learn." Currently, I teach at the middle school level. After taking a quick glance at my attendance, I counted 22 students who have been absent 5 or more times in the past month. If a student isn't here, a student can't learn. Therefore, they will score unsatisfactory on their CSAP. Since I am only one teacher and I do not have all of the students, you can be assured that other teachers in my school have the same problem. I'm curious sir, how would you solve the problem of students on the "come to school when they feel like it" plan? The value of education has diminished over the years. Before you criticize my profession, perhaps you should walk in my shoes for a day, no, at least a week. Or you could tell me what it is you do for a living and I'll return the favor without ever having observed you on the job. Fair is fair.

• May 12, 2008

  11:56 a.m.

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  fatheromalley writes:

  Oh, yes blame the parents.. or blame the test.. it seems that 6 hours a day to teach is very good.. now if we can just get away from the 41 days off a year kids get.. start holding teachers responsible for TEACHING.. I home schooled my oldest two and I plan on home schooling my latest two..

  I have a 9 year old that every single year she comes home for two weeks learning about Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King, Does she know who Thomas Jefferson was, or Benjamin Franklin, NO!

  When she was in 1st grade she asked why white people were so mean?
  I had to straighten her out on that one too..

  Is this any indication of why the CSAP scores are low?

  I taught "slow learners" for years. They weren't SLOW, they just weren't being taught.. but whatta I know...?? and guess what? they didn't change parents when they took my class. With 3 months, two nights a week all were at grade level in reading, history and math.. could the teachers in school have done the same, of course!

  Oh, by the way, my class size averaged between 22 and 30 students, so ya can't use class size either..

  www.fatheromalley.com

  May God Bless...

• May 12, 2008

  12:30 p.m.

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  Wechasa writes:

  Angeletc.

  In which of the State's reform schools do you teach?

• May 12, 2008

  12:56 p.m.

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  Konyok writes:

  AngelontheSidelines,

  Do you consult Bill Ayers' books in your teaching?

  I've ordered a couple of titles from the teaching for social justice series on ebay. I expect that they will be interesting.

• May 12, 2008

  1:38 p.m.

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  p_myers661 writes:

  kickjaa65

  You say there are kids who don't come to school? So. We should punish the other students by imprisoning them in schools with those students? How about letting the parents choose the school with a default choice for those who aren't involved enough to choose? Yep. It's vouchers. Vouchers would no more damage schools by "siphoning funds" than having students able to do nothing more than stare at a TV helps society. Let the schools see how many would support them and how many would choose another way.

  Home schooling is good and it's mostly academic not racist. That contention is convenient for those with closed eyes and minds. Most kids are home schooled to avoid the pop culture, liberal mindset, politically correct and severely lacking in substance public education system. I would be home schooling my granddaughter if she had not been so neglected by her mother that she was actually afraid of people.

  Home schooled students aren't locked in a closet all day. There are many opportunities for social interaction for kids outside of a public school. Church is one example as is grocery shopping.

  Let parents make the choice for their kids. That way you won't have such large classes. Considering that you said many students were absent perhaps we should change our rules and allow parents to remove a child from school, with the consent of the child, after age 12. They are dropping out three years later in droves. It won't make a great change in our society either. Most of the kids this teacher describes aren't learning and are impeding the learning of others. Yes, they will lack skills. It would be practical to offer internet classes in the basics and slant these to impart enough skills to obtain a GED. The savings to the schools would be substantial. Ask any teacher or principal about vandalism or destruction of property done by these "reluctant" students.

  I'd give my voucher to my local public school: Federal Heights Elementary School. They are listed as not meeting standards in CSAP. My experience with them has been that they are hard working, dedicated and capable teachers. My granddaughter's teacher has communicated with us regularly about her skills and behavior. (The child is a special needs student who is at least a year behind the class). This teacher offers special homework for her as well as regular homework. It isn't easy to do this and I'm sure she does if tor all of the special students in her class. That's what the teachers here are like and they're backed up by a principal who requires order, manners and respect from and for all. When my doctor permits it, I will volunteer to help out in any way possible because they go the extra mile with the kids, just like the teacher this post is addressed to. We must do all we can to support them in education.

• May 12, 2008

  2:36 p.m.

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  AngelontheSidelines writes:

  Never heard of Bill Ayers.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers
  I'm not a teacher, I referenced John Taylor Gatto.

  Can any teacher/administrator prove that the six lessons are not the foundation of modern education? Whether it is reform school, charter, private, or public school, everything the teacher believes (s)he conveys to the students is entirely secondary to the six primary lessons.

• May 12, 2008

  3:30 p.m.

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  PajamaPulitzer writes:

  fatheromalley speaks the truth!

• May 12, 2008

  3:56 p.m.

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  Frank25 writes:

  CSAP only needs one change. Administer incoming test (no longer than 1 or 2 hours depending on grade levels) during first couple of weeks to learn what each student knows. Then administer a similar test at end of year for grade, and promotion to next grade if student has learned. Test the student, teachers, and schools. Present 2 hour 4 tests or more, in short period is an endurance test, not knowledge. And telling student and parents that test has no bearning on students promotion or school records destroys any credibility of that test. CSAP should follow curricula or standards, with all writing, spelling, or other testing done in classrooms during school year, but CSAP should be multiple choice only. Majority of teachers and students are being measured, but under too much stress and commotion. My version would be accepted as it was in past generations. Problem is that percentage of teachers and parents who fight any system they cannot control.

• May 12, 2008

  4:04 p.m.

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  JTTAAB writes:

  No child left behind. Lower the standards.

• May 12, 2008

  4:43 p.m.

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  HassanChop writes:

  Holy cow, I haven't checked this website since I moved out of CO 2 years ago, and this is the exact same letter/subsequent comment thread that was here then. How many more times will we see this basic thread?

  CSAP sucks!

  No, CSAP is great, it shows we need vouchers!

  Vouchers suck!

  Without vouchers, my children might have to go to school with *gasp* POOR people!

  Well, I'm a stay at home mom who knows nothing about teaching, education, or the CSAP, but based on my one child's experience at one school in the suburbs, I can say for sure that the education system is failing the future!

  Etc, etc, ad nauseum.