Bison killing rumors whisper through Fairplay
The Rocky
Published March 29, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.
Photo by Barry Gutierrez © The Rocky
The heads of three bison lay on a flat bed truck at the Downare Ranch near Hartsel on March 28, 2008.
Photo by Barry Gutierrez / The Rocky
Bob Agosti, 60, gun enthusiast and member of the Single Action Shooting Society, loads .45 caliber bullets.
Photo by Barry Gutierrez / The Rocky
Tracy Downare watches her son, Monte Joseph, 27, and his daughter Gracy, 2, say goodbye as Monte heads out to feed bison on the Downare Ranch. Photo was shot in March.
Photo by Special To The Rocky
The carcass of a pregnant bison. Timm Armstrong, a local, said most of the bison that were killed were about to calve.
It is whispered maybe a dozen times a day in this tiny former gold mining town plopped in the middle of a lot of central Colorado nothingness.
It is a fairly odd statement that at first makes the head spin.
"The Indians did it."
It is always said in an under-the-breath, highly conspiratorial way, the speaker at first shifting his or her eyes this way and that, before leaning back and nodding.
"The Indians," they whisper, tapping your hand.
It is the talk of this town of 752 souls, the horrific slaughter two weeks ago of rancher Monte Downare's 32 bison by at least 14 men, the majority of whom were caught standing over or not far from their kills.
What appears clear, townsfolk and lawmen here say, is that the slaughter is but the latest chapter in the long-running feud between Monte Downare (pronounced Dawn-ARE-ray) and Texas high-tech exec Jeff Hawn, whose ranches abut each other southeast of Hartsel near here in southeastern Park County.
The hunters were staying in a barn, outbuildings and tent on the Hawn property. And they allegedly told the sheriff that they had been given permission to kill the bison, although it's not clear if they said who gave them the OK.
"The men who did this are lucky the sheriff, and not the men in here, caught them first," Duke Marsh, 68, bellows while standing in the middle of the crowded Silverheels Truck Stop just off U.S. 285 near the entrance to the town.
"They would still be hanging by their (genitals)," he spits to the nodding approval of the others. "No feud should end with the killing of any man's livestock."
The Silverheels at midafternoon has become the town gathering spot, a place where the police chief and county undersheriff sit over coffee swapping police tales, occasionally sharing information on the slaughter with the locals.
It is, too, a place that is rife with rumor and half-truths, of tales that the shooters dropped piles of corn or other foodstuffs to lure the bison off the Downare Ranch and into the killing zone, of one of the shooters racing into the herd on a snowmobile to make the animals run and make the kill at least a bit more sporting.
Presiding over it all is Timm Armstrong, 53, a local rancher who three years ago grew bored with simply running his 130 head of longhorn cattle and built the Silverheels.
In town eight years now, he knows almost everyone, and they know him.
"The Downares are really good people," he says, repeating what everyone in the town says of the family that has ranched this part of Colorado for generations. "For whatever reason, they just couldn't or wouldn't keep their bison off Jeff Hawn's property. Still, that's no reason for any man to go on a killing spree."
Like everyone else in town, Timm Armstrong knew of the long-running feud over the bison between the Downares and Jeff Hawn, which did reach the courthouse in the form of a lawsuit the Texan filed against the Downares just days before the slaughter.
"You know the worst thing about it?" said Timm Armstrong, his eyes almost misty. "Almost every one of those cows they killed - I heard 29 of them - were about to calve. Those men wiped out an entire herd! Unforgivable is what it is."
It is not a far stretch to say that this is a town in grieving. A lot of folks here run their own, smaller ranches. They are people who are devoted to their animals. And they cannot imagine the Downares' grief.
"It's just damn wrong. You don't just shoot somebody's stock," says Cindy Newman, 50, who works the register at the Silverheels and operates a 120-acre ranch with her husband on the south side of the Downare property.
Most folks here put the Downare family's bison herd at between 1,200 to 1,500 head. Cindy Newman knows the bison well, and not just because a dozen or so would often run through her fence and graze on her property.
"Trust me, if they decide they want on your property," she said, "nothing will stop them. I never once thought of getting my gun. And every time we called the family, they came right out. And they paid to fix our fence."
She knows of the bison better than most because she has slammed into two of them over the past two years on her way to work.
"This year and last year," Cindy Newman explained. "The first one I hit, I spun him, and he went right through my truck's windshield. I got lucky and wasn't hurt. But Monte Downare, he paid to get the truck fixed. That's the kind of people we're talking about."
Of Jeff Hawn, no one ever remembers seeing him in town. Today, they all say, he would not be welcome.
"I don't know for certain that I would serve him," says Dave O'Bregan, 57, who five months ago opened O'Bregan's Pub, the only full-service bar in town, along with Leo's Liquors, which his wife, Brenda, runs.
"I feel bad for the bison," Dave O'Bregan says. "And sure, I've heard the rumors. What I know is the Downares and Jeff Hawn didn't get along."
Brenda O'Bregan then repeats what I have heard all over town.
"Native Americans did it," she says. "That is the rumor."
The way the story goes, somebody hired a crew of Native American men to slaughter the bison on the belief they have a constitutional right to kill bison at any time of the year.
"I'm half Chippewa," says Tammi Castle, 40, an O'Bregan's server. "I've heard the rumor, too, and it's not what the law says. And besides, Native Americans would never do this. We revere the bison."
Interrupted during his coffee break at the Silverheels and asked about the rumor, Park County Undersheriff Monte Gore simply smiled.
"I am not saying anything about Native Americans. Not at this point."
It will be at least until next week before any decision on arrests and charges are considered against anyone involved, Monte Gore said, explaining the bison slaughter is a complex and intricate case that today is being investigated by four law enforcement agencies.
"I can tell you that we're going to go methodically and logically though this to bring those responsible to justice.
"It is just tragic," he later repeated over and over as he looked at pictures of the dead bison.
And yes, he said, deputies had been called out to the Hawn Ranch, where the bulk of the bison carcasses were found, on several occasions, most long before a Downare son made his 911 call on March 19.
No one, Monte Gore said, foresaw this.
Jeff Hawn, he said, was not on his property at the time of the bison killings.
One other thing, he said, attempting to counter the resident rumor mill on the slaughter.
"They were allowed to harvest some of the meat," Monte Gore said of 14 gunmen. "A determination was made to allow them to take the meat, rather than allow it to just sit there and go to waste."
Yet in the absence of arrests, charges and a sense of resolution, a town rages.
"I'm telling you, the shooters weren't locals," longtime resident Bob Agosti, 60, said. "Nobody up here would have shot another man's bison like that. These men weren't hunters; they were assassins."
In many ways, people here are at least silently praying that it was outsiders - Native American or not - who did what they consider to be unconscionably barbaric.
Brenda O'Bregan put it this way: "We want to know what they are going to do with these men because it is a big topic in this town . . . It is why I think the county is taking so long with it. They know we're angry about it. As much as we want a resolution, we don't want them to do anything to screw it up and let these men go free."
johnsonw@RockyMountainNews.com or 303-954-2763
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March 29, 2008
8:01 a.m.
Suggest removal
sunshinestate writes:
A fine creature reduced to small acreage livestock status and fenced "hunting" in some cases.To the editors, please remain vigilant in properly refering to "Shooters" rather than "Hunters".
March 29, 2008
10:01 a.m.
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raysmom writes:
The picture IS terrible, but it certainly does make the situation more...tangible. We SHOULD stay outraged, I think, and people tend to brush ugliness under the rug if they can, so this sad and brutal photo may serve a purpose. Nothing personal, MrCrush. And Mr. Johnson- I disagree with you A LOT, but this was a well done story. A little jab here and there at everybody, but basically very interesting and even-handed reporting.
March 29, 2008
10:04 a.m.
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gylizard1 writes:
One more reason I hate Texans. Stay in your Lone Star State and stay the heck out of Colorado..what jerks. What would they do if we went to TX and shot a bunch of Longhorns who had strayed onto our property? Any ideas? And 29 of them were about to calve too? That is just sickening. He should have to pay $50,000 a head to replace them in my mind..but it won't bring them back will it?
March 29, 2008
10:25 a.m.
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buttebuff writes:
As a bison operator who lost both a dog and a pregnant bison cow which wandered off our ranch and were shot, let me contribute this. An owner/operator is ethically responsible to do all that she or he can to keep animals on his/her own property. Bison can be contained. Trained to electric fencing they will stay where they are if properly fed, watered, and not harassed. If one can't control bison, then cattle are a good option. Don't give the reputation of the animal and their responsible owners and the owners' insurance rates a hit. By the same token, if any livestock or pet animal strays, give the owner some slack to retrieve the same and pay for any damages caused. The Golden Rule applies here as in everything else.
March 29, 2008
11:23 a.m.
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Jim writes:
Mr./Ms. Johnson if you think South Park is Central Colorado "nothingness" you need a vacation in Western Kansas. The many towns in South Park were not "plopped" there. Courageous pioneers and miners built them. You were in God's country and didn't even know it. The link is to a photo of a Bison with head attached.
http://www.usaskstudies.coop/publicat...
March 29, 2008
11:48 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
Mamma, sending assassins to shoot straying bison in defense of a vacant ranch is hardly in the realm of self defense.
And the Yellowstone slaughter remains unnoticed. Maybe because the Yellowstone Bison are wild and with no rancher to own them nobody cares if they are just shot down.
March 29, 2008
12:22 p.m.
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dgarci1 writes:
My family owns a cabin up near this area and so this article is of some interest. Its too bad about the animals. This "is" God's country!! What saddens me even more is this talk about Native Americans. I hope that I am simply misunderstanding this whole thing but it sounds like this "rumor" is a poor reflection of the people that live up there. I'm sure its only a handful of people spreading this careless rumor. Sounds like it was a bunch of rednecks responsible for this........but maybe its easier to pick on the indians.
March 29, 2008
12:45 p.m.
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Gus writes:
Mama354 and others who feel the same:
This is Colorado, and from what I understand, Open Range Law implies that landowners are responsible for protecting their own property from other's livestock. I would like to hear an attorney wiegh-in regarding open range law.
I agree with others who say the shooters should be prosecuted to the fullest extent in Criminal and Civil Courts.
March 29, 2008
12:53 p.m.
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sunshinestate writes:
So this is "God's Country" and something of "nothingness"? It's always a contant stream of strange comming from the over sold interior west. I'll take rural Florida (the "Sunshinme State").
March 29, 2008
12:56 p.m.
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SaddleTramp writes:
Let me remind one and all that Colorado is a "FENCE OUT" state. If you don't want them on your property, you are responsible for keeping them out. It may be an archaic law, but it is the law! I'm curious what everyone's feelings about this would be if it were a herd of horses that busted through. I'd bet there would be absolutly no sympathy for the texas part-time summer resident.
March 29, 2008
1:48 p.m.
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Gus writes:
Mama354
You have the right to use firearms when it is your physical endangered(Your's or another person's life). Not when your property is being damaged. Then, you call the Sheriff and work it out as a civilized person. "It's" right there in the State laws and United States constitutions.
Thanks to Saddletramp for chiming in on the Open Range law.
March 29, 2008
2:50 p.m.
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jenkrom writes:
None of the bison should have been shot.
But for those of you trying to quote the law about defending "your property", re-read the article please. "Dead bison were also found on land owned by the U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and other private property."
March 29, 2008
3:32 p.m.
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diamondstay writes:
Let's not jeopardize our 2nd Ammendment rights by using it as authority to kill someone else's livestock that's gotten loose on our land. There's a lot of responsible folks like myself who support the 2nd Ammendment but are abhorred by this incident in Fairplay. It was a senseless irresponsilbe act by cowards and we as a culture need to speak out against it. If you feel the killings were justified, you're entitled to your opinion, but please, don't use arguments like the 2nd Ammendment to support it. It makes you look really foolish because this incident doesn't come close to rising to that level. Some buffalo grazing in open country are a threat to life and limb?............ Come on! Folks that are so devoid of common sense and walking arond with guns are dangerous. Yikes!
March 29, 2008
5:33 p.m.
Suggest removal
American100 writes:
I laughed when I read the below print. This must be one of those $10 per hour writers who dreams of one day writing a novel.
"It is whispered maybe a dozen times a day in this tiny former gold mining town plopped in the middle of a lot of central Colorado nothingness.
It is a fairly odd statement that at first makes the head spin.
"The Indians did it.""
March 29, 2008
6:33 p.m.
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plainsguy writes:
The law in colorado is open range. But with that said as rancher myself its your responsibility to keep your livestock in. But just being animals they will get out. I have had problems with other landowners cattle getting into my pasture but I have never considered shooting one of them. Thats just the life of a rancher putting up with other peoples animals getting out.
March 29, 2008
6:42 p.m.
Suggest removal
suburbdweller writes:
Mama354's view that you have the right to kill whatever wanders onto your property is a little misguided, don't you think?
What if what wandered onto your land was some lost cub scouts?
"Sweet Lord, Margaret, grab my gun. We gots us some trespassers!"
March 29, 2008
7:49 p.m.
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Gus writes:
I want to commend the law enforcement folks who say they intend to bring these vandals to justice. They have a hard job with such a publicized incident.
Thanks to the Rocky Mountain News for letting us have this open forum.
And to whoever is recommending all these comments for removal: Please give it up. You have no right to censor other people's thoughts.
GUS
March 29, 2008
8:18 p.m.
Suggest removal
TheDenverB writes:
"So, I wonder how the editorial meeting went prior to printing this picture. The article talks about how outraged people are. I can hear it, "Hey, I shot this picture of smelly, ugly Bison head - shows they've been decapited. Let's run with it and fuel the outrage even more." Shame on you Rocky Mountain News. This is Sensationalism 101"
yet, you still read the story and commented on it...
March 29, 2008
8:29 p.m.
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grace writes:
So what it boils down to...if something wanders onto your property..rather than calling the responsible party...you just shoot it. Thank God nobody's children wandered onto this guys land!
March 29, 2008
9:13 p.m.
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SaddleTramp writes:
I run a horse ranch. My neighbors run cows, open range. I fence the cows out. If we have a break in a fence line my neighbor and I work it out. I've had his cows on my land grazing on my pasture. I run 'em off, fix the fence and that's that. My horses busted through, he rounded 'em up, that's that. The thing is, my neighbor is not a part time "rancher", nor am I. We work it out neighbor to neighbor. I've been warned about my dog running cows, and took appropriate actions, else the dog would have been shot. Dogs aren't livestock. Point is, I'm not dealing with some "dude' from texas that gets pissed when his unmaintained fence is broken down. And I hate to be reduntant; Colorado is a "fence out" state. I abide by the law, and it costs me. But I live with it.
March 29, 2008
9:35 p.m.
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suburbdweller writes:
SaddleTramp has hit the nail on the head.
Sure you have a right to protect your property. Of course you do. And there are perhaps thousands of possible of ways to do that---ways that don't involve killing innocent creatures or destroying someone else's property.
Thousands.
Jeff Hawn's solution wasn't about defending himself or protecting his property, it was about ego. It was about defending his belief that he has total dominion over "his" land---dominion so complete that wandering bison he didn't want there threatened; so complete, he believes, that he has the right to erradicate whatever threatens it, no matter the damage and suffering it leads to.
Nevermind that bison were wandering wherever they pleased for eons before the first Europeans arrived and started putting up fences. Nevermind that bison aren't aware of property lines and land deeds---imaginary notions of "ownership" created in the minds of people.
Hawn took the acts of innocent animals, doing what animals will do, as a threat to the sanctity of his dominion, and by God he wasn't going to stand for it.
What a jerk.
March 30, 2008
6:31 a.m.
Suggest removal
phatkb420 writes:
The people of Park co.as well as the people of Colorado need to take action to show the out of state owners of land in this state that we will not tolerate this type of revenge.Not only should the land owner be shown that we will not put up with this bullcrap,the criminals that carried out this cowardly act need to be dealt with too.The time to react is now!! Lets show this kind of people they are not welcome here!!!
March 30, 2008
7:02 a.m.
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warrengfunk7 writes:
Any man who shot a Bison that day deserves no less than life in prison with a chance of parole in 2-years. Yes, 2-years... That way the life sentence scares them shizless, but if the reform and work hard, they would get a second chance in a couple years or so.
Either that, or the men should be made to replace the entire herd - including the unborn calves. I'm talking about the rancher that gave those men permission too.
March 30, 2008
7:16 a.m.
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warrengfunk7 writes:
Lets not forget, this land doesn't belong to the ranchers... It belongs to the Bison and the Bison have the right to go where ever they so wish. Killing a Bison is no less worse than killing a human.
It does not matter that these Bison have shed blood onto the Earth. For it will not be shed in vain. The "Indians" will one day give this very land back to the Bison, to roam free of man and fence and hate.
March 30, 2008
12:37 p.m.
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BenKelman writes:
Down on the NE plains I have fond memories of quality time spent in Fairplay. I wonder if the Como depot restaurant is still serving?
Animal management sometimes leaves people in complicated situations. “What to do ?” isn’t always clear and everyone with experience in life has been challenged at sometime.
I recognize the hard work and difficult decisions the Downare people encountered: They appear to be committed to providing Americans a healthy meat alternative with other related animal interaction benefits.
I hope these tough high country food providers stand tall with their real life experience and continue to feed those who won’t or can’t feed and entertain themselves.
The best medicine is to rise above and stand tall.
Now, How can I get a deal on that Buff meat?
March 30, 2008
4:02 p.m.
Suggest removal
RangeRider writes:
On 3-29 at 1:19 PM, Mama354 wrote "It's a pristine, high-mountain, trailer park with expensive landscaping that was destroyed by the bison." I think now I've heard it all - a pristine trailer park. What a great oxymoron.
March 30, 2008
5:53 p.m.
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rellimpank writes:
---I wonder what the late "Colonel" Frank B. Mayer would think--???
(especially of some of the comments on this thread)
March 30, 2008
7:03 p.m.
Suggest removal
larsonlaw writes:
In reference to Mamma 354, comment made 3/29 @ 11:33
Read it over again, I'm not only embarrassed at the content of your comment, but maybe more at the fact that you represent yourself in such an embarrassing illiterate fashion. Do you bother to even take a minute to read over what you are about to submit to many readers? Really there's nothing that I could say to you, I'm afraid you've embarrassed yourself enough. Go back to 5th grade English....write more when you not only mature but learn how to spell...or better yet, wake up and pay attention!
Ignorance is bliss I'll bet...
Wonder if that's why our country is in the position we are in?
K, I shouldn't even go there..
Why don't we wait and get the facts before reacting like we actually know what the heck really happened. Novel though huh?
Also, my respects to Gus and suberbdweller.......and probably many others that seem to actually have a clue~
March 30, 2008
8:14 p.m.
Suggest removal
MollysDad writes:
The stars at night are big and bright
Deep in the heart of Texas
The prairie sky is wide and high
Deep in the heart of Texas
The sage in bloom is like perfume
Deep in the heart of Texas
Reminds me of the one that I love
Deep in the heart of Texas
The coyotes wail along the trail
Deep in the heart of Texas
The rabbits rush around the brush
Deep in the heart of Texas
The cowboys cry, "Ki yippee yi!"
Deep in the heart of Texas
The dogies bawl and bawl and bawl
Deep in the heart of Texas
The stars at night are big and bright
Deep in the heart of Texas
The prairie sky is wide and high
Deep in the heart of Texas
Deep in the heart of Texas
Deep in the heart of Texas
Deep in the heart of Texas
Deep in the heart of Texas,
Ahhhhh....feel the love. Thanks SaddleSore & The DenverB (B is for baseless) it's always nice to know you love me. gylizard1, I want to dedicate the song above to you. Y'all seem to have this sense of entitlement in regards to who can and cannot live and own property here in Colorado.
March 30, 2008
9:17 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
BROOMFIELD, Colo. (AP) ― Renewable Energy Systems Americas Inc. is moving its headquarters from Austin, Texas, to Broomfield, bringing dozens of high-paying jobs to the Denver suburb.
The wind farm developer says it plans to relocate 70 full-time jobs from Texas to Broomfield and to add 70 more Broomfield-based employees in the next year.
RES-Americas currently has 160 employees in the U.S. and Canada.
Operations in Broomfield began Monday. City staff said average salaries at the RES-Americas office were expected to be $110,000 in 2011.
Note: These jobs are not open to Texas haters, so sorry.
March 31, 2008
1:09 p.m.
Suggest removal
SaddleTramp writes:
Not hiring texas haters? How are they going to fill the positions? I know, mollysdad, you can quit your job at Pizza Hut and hire on...........................
March 31, 2008
2:01 p.m.
Suggest removal
dontmesswithtexas writes:
Feel free to share your feelings with Jeff Hawn personally at his email address: jeff.hawn@attachmate.com
March 31, 2008
3:50 p.m.
Suggest removal
johnson writes:
MollysDad's attitude is exactly what the Texas bashers are talking about! Reminds me of the Mexicans that come to the US and raise their flag over ours. If Texas (and Mexico) are little Edens on Earth, than why did you leave??? And more importantly, when are you leaving here?
BTW,Mollysdad, betcha don't know this one:
Where the snowy peaks gleam in the moonlight,
above the dark forests of pine,
And the wild foaming waters dash onward,
toward lands where the tropic stars shine;
Where the scream of the bold mountain eagle,
responds to the notes of the dove
Is the purple robed West, the land that is best,
the pioneer land that we love.
chorus
The bison is gone from the upland,
the deer from the canyon has fled,
The home of the wolf is deserted,
the antelope moans for his dead,
The war whoop re-echoes no longer,
the Indian's only a name,
And the nymphs of the grove in their loneliness rove,
but the columbine blooms just the same.
chorus
Let the violet brighten the brookside,
in sunlight of earlier spring,
Let the fair clover bedeck the green meadow,
in days when the orioles sing,
Let the golden rod herald the autumn,
but, under the midsummer sky,
In its fair Western home, may the columbine bloom
till our great mountain rivers run dry.
chorus
Tis the land where the columbines grow,
Overlooking the plains far below,
While the cool summer breeze in the evergreen trees
Softly sings where the columbines grow.
March 31, 2008
3:53 p.m.
Suggest removal
ALawson writes:
Don't mess with texas but please come to Colorado and buy mountain property and then landscape it just like you would in urban texas. Wait - I have a better idea. Stay in texas and landscape your property to look like mountians! This guy sounds like a new world scumbag. Warren Buffet owns more property than anyone and he actually preserves his land, so guys like this can't come in and do this kind of thing. I hope they nail this Jeff Hawn guy with maximum penalties and the locals run this poor excuse for a human straight back to texas. I know I will not forget this name for a long time. Stop messing with Colorado!!!
March 31, 2008
4:09 p.m.
Suggest removal
MollysDad writes:
SaddleSore,
Please rest assured that I am certain that I am much more qualified than you. Dumb Red Necks who don't know that a considerable part of Colorado was once part of Texas really should not waste their time or the employer's time applying...moron. SaddleSore, I would like to recommend that you apply and tell them about your disdain for Texas and Texans. Please make sure you report back to me and let me know how things go for you Sport-O.
Johnson,
That was a sweet tune that you showed everyone. I can't really express my inner feelings of enlightenment after reading those verses. The words simply are escaping me. Wheeeww!! It's really none of your damn business, however; I am NEVER leaving Colorado and plan on inviting many more Texans to live here in the North Forty. Arrogant colorad-ite elitists will rue the day they started talking smack about Texas and it's people.
It is on like Donkey Kong!!!
March 31, 2008
4:26 p.m.
Suggest removal
ALawson writes:
MollysDad - You call us "Arrogant colorad-ite elitists". Are you not just one hypocritical SOB. I have to leave Steamboat every spring break to get away from all the drunken belligerent Texans that bring in their filthy attitudes and plastic woman wanting to fight every local they come across. Have some respect - You are not in texas anymore there Dinky Dong!!!
March 31, 2008
4:39 p.m.
Suggest removal
MollysDad writes:
ALawson,
Move on or deal with it. Whatever you do ALawson, don't bite the hand that feeds the "regular folks" in Steamboat. They cannot survive without the tourist dollars. I don't go to Steamboat, so that makes you just another ignorant Coloradite talking out of you pampered butt. I will not show any respect for ignorant people who chose to discriminate against me simply because I'm from the Great State of Texas. This all reaks of unjustifiable jealousy. Boo! Hoo!, the Texans are getting drunk and beligerent, but I really don't mind the food they put on my table, or the utility bill that they pay.. now who's the hyprocrite?? Elitist Coloradite!
March 31, 2008
4:52 p.m.
Suggest removal
MollysDad writes:
ALawson,
There are many cities that deal with spring break tourists. My question to you is, "Why did you not research where you were moving to?" I'm sure the people of Sturgis, SD either rent their homes out during biker week, or they stay and join in the festivities. Sounds like a lack of homework on your end. Sorry, can't help you.
March 31, 2008
5:10 p.m.
Suggest removal
ALawson writes:
MollysDad - What makes you think I moved anywhere? Ever heard of a native??? I guess texans don't stay where they are from, although texas is such a big and great place it truly surprises me that texans seem so eager to leave and bring their crap attitudes with them. I think the "regular folk" in Steamboat, as you called them would do just fine without half the state of texas coming in and taking a crap in Colorado every spring break. Most of them don't buy lift tickets anyway; they just buy beer and make a huge mess pretending that they have some kind of entitlement that the rest of the country does not deserve.
There have got to be texans that show respect when they are in someone else’s home right???
FYI - I do not and will not ever work for a texas based company, I pay my taxes the same as you. I go on vacation the same as the people I am talking about, but I do not disrespect locals no matter where I am. I must admit, been to texas once and that was just to drive through and one time is more than enough for me.
March 31, 2008
5:59 p.m.
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johnson writes:
mollysdad,,,,,,,That happens to be the Colorado State Song. But you probably don't give a crap.
March 31, 2008
6:05 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
ALawson,
Wah! Wah! Wah! Can I buy you a native bumper sticker, or better yet a pacifier? Will you stop whining if I do? Ask your local business owners how they feel about you running away their hard earned business. I could care less where you choose to work. I have always shown respect to coloradites until recently. The Texas bashing has gotten out of hand. I have not been to nor do I want to go to steamboat. I will make sure that I recommend steamboat to every Texan when spring break comes up in conversation. The best skiing by far in Colorado is in Steamboat!! Have the fine citizens of steamboat ( I use the term loosely)thought about revamping the police department with all of the littering, fighting, and general debauchery going on? Sounds like someone is dropping the ball up there!! I can't possibly be required to come up with a solution to all of your whiny issues. It's amazing that the citizens of this state are so blatant in their discrimination. ALawson, again get a clue or move to another area that does not have tourists. It's that simple.
March 31, 2008
6:18 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
johnson,
I have done more good for this state than you can ever imagine. I can't speak specifics, but sleep well tonight knowing that I have taken care of you and all the other ignorant baffoons that talk crap about where I'm from. I do not go around asking for or expecting a pat on the back. Be careful where you tread, if you have no idea whom you are addressing. johnson the only thing that I truly do not give a crap about is you!! A coloradite who has no idea of what I have done for them out of the goodness of my heart.
March 31, 2008
6:30 p.m.
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johnson writes:
mollysdad,
My hero! What, you saved Colorado from the French! Invented whitewater rafting or skiing? And I'll sure watch where I'm treading ("don't tread on me" I get it.) You threatening some anonymous blogger? What a tool!!!! y'all
March 31, 2008
6:41 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
johnson,
You are obviously your namesake, a johnson through and through. Another walking, talking, squaking ingenious coloradite. You're simply an arrogant puke.
March 31, 2008
6:54 p.m.
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johnson writes:
Ah, it's come to name calling. Well, mollysdad, me bucko, you are a.....a...a......a....texan!!!! HAH! Take that!!! y'all.
March 31, 2008
7:18 p.m.
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suburbdweller writes:
MollysDad wrote:
"Y'all seem to have this sense of entitlement in regards to who can and cannot live and own property here in Colorado."
Interesting you brought up "entitlement" because I think you have it backwards.
Coloradoans understand perfectly well that anyone with the money has the right buy whatever's for sale, same as any other.
We just happen to feel contempt for some Texas trailer park redneck NRA attitudes of entitlement, like that because you own some land, you're "entitled" to shoot whatever wanders onto it.
Oh, and by the way, "y'all" is not a word.
March 31, 2008
7:51 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
suburbdweller,
Thank you so much English lesson. I see that you also like to generalize a people as a whole. No, I was right it's the Coloradites that think they can determine who can own property here as well as visit. You folks have my sympathy when I encounter your ignorance regarding a state and a people you know nothing about. Yes, colorado is a "fence out" state. How long ago was the law written? Did the law take into account that people would regard buffalo as livestock? Did the law take into account that there would be people who would honor the "fence out" law, just to have their fences destroyed by buffalo? Did the law take into account that there would one day be out of state property owners? Do you think that if this supposed transgression were to have taken place back in the 1800's there would be this type of reaction? The law seems slightly antiquated if you ask me. It's really easy for people like yourself living in the comfort of their sudivisions to pass judgement on rural land owners. You seem like all of the other arrogant coloradites so surely you must have the answers to these questions. If it were my property and I called the authorities and they failed me repeatedly, I would have shot everyone of those ignorant animals destroying my property! I would have donated all of the meat to charity, and I would have charged the owner of the bison for the processing of such an endeavor. The arrogance displayed here is only surpassed by the arrogance of the ranchers here in colorado who believe they have the right to show up on anyone's property and say, "Sorry you have to fence my animals out." This has become a common problem in the last few years for people who live next to open space land. I look forward to the laws regarding renegade livestock being revised in the near future. If you do not think that this is not currently taking place, you are as naive as the subdivision that you surely live in. Please do not get on your political high horse until you visit the slaughter house that processes the meat that you shove into your piehole around dinner time. Please take the time to know the complexity of this issue before challenging me to a discussion that you will surely lose.
March 31, 2008
8:15 p.m.
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suburbdweller writes:
MollysDad wrote: "I would have shot everyone of those ignorant animals destroying my property!"
Your comments speak for themselves: Blatant (proud, even) disregard for living things, justified by labeling them "ignorant" and fueled by the delusion that they pose a life-or-death threat to what's "yours."
Exactly the kind of ego-sanctifying response one would expect from someone of Jeff Hawn's ilk.
Well at least you can feel better about yourself knowing that you're smarter than those "ignorant" bison. They really should have known better!
March 31, 2008
8:29 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
suburbdweller,
Your comments speak for you as well. "Oh those poor bison were murdered!", is what I expecct to hear out of you next. I'm certain if these were pigs, this story would never have been made. So please tell me what the difference between a pigs life and a bisons life is? You obviously have no knowledge of livestock, bison are definitively on the stupid end of the spectrum. No, the people to blame are the owners of said bison. I would not expect the stupid buffalo ( And they are very stupid) to know how lazy and stupid their owners were. Ohhh those poor little 1 thousand pound, property improving, Rhodes scholar buffalo. Thank you for responding to my questions, I now know the type of person I'm dealing with here.
March 31, 2008
8:46 p.m.
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suburbdweller writes:
MollysDad wrote: "...bison are definitively on the stupid end of the spectrum...I would not expect the stupid buffalo ( And they are very stupid)..."
You really are making this too easy.
March 31, 2008
9:09 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
suburbdweller,
You, the bison, and the owners of the bison are all obviously very stupid. The fact that an animal is stupid does not grant it free roaming rights to destroy another's property. Ignorance of the law as well as the inate stupidity of livestock is not a viable explanation for what has transpired. Go ahead and hop back onto your political correctness high horse and stay out of arenas where your lack of intelligence reagarding everything being discussed is blatantly obvious. You suburbdweller, have made this conversation a complete waste of my time.
March 31, 2008
9:15 p.m.
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suburbdweller writes:
MollysDad wrote: "The fact that an animal is stupid does not grant it free roaming rights...the inate stupidity of livestock is not a viable explanation..."
You GO, boy...
March 31, 2008
9:31 p.m.
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johnson writes:
mollysdad has reverted to calling animals names. "stupid buffalo." What's next? "dumb trees"? As to antiquated laws, they are still the law regardless. You feel you don't have to obey the law because it's outdated? "Waddya mean murder is STILL against the law?" And he asks if the "fence out" law takes into account there would be out of state property owners? Why should it? "The law applies to everybody, except if you're living in Texas." Gawd, what a tool!!, y'all. I gotta go order a pizza.
April 2, 2008
9:30 a.m.
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cloehr writes:
It is obvious mollysdad feels a deep love for their home state, but I'm afraid you are showing a deep disdain for the state in which you live. I am not calling anyone names or telling anyone what to do, but maybe you should consider moving back. I don't see how you can be happy here with the amount of hatred you are displaying.
April 2, 2008
10:03 p.m.
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gladhest writes:
Things seem to be getting out of hand with name calling. I moved to Wyoming in the late 70's because I had visited Parker,CO in 1975 and lived for 2 weeks on a ranch where I could ride a horse all day and never go through a gate, just see cows and oil wells. Last time I was at the intersection of Dry Creek and County Line Rd in Parker, I was totally lost - it is all shopping malls and streets and street lights - I couldn't wait to get out of there. That is why I live in Park County, couldn't find a job and place in Wyoming - and this is the closest I can get. After that visit to Parker I cried the entire plane ride and bus ride home to Atlanta, GA because I wanted to go back to CO, my Mom had transplanted me to the suburbs of Atlanta from a farm in NH and I hated it all.
Now people are moving in trying to develop the "West", there is not much left for people like me who need space - and when people lack a sense of community as Mr Hawn does it makes me feel hopeless.
Bison actually do not "ruin" property, as this land is an ecosystem meant to be grazed, they help it as well as adding some fertilizer! And they are hard to manage, I do know the Downares are far from lazy but with as many miles of fences as they have to maintain, it is a challenge constantly. Anyone with livestock knows this - including horses, cattle, goats and sheep - it is a constant job. At my place, deer and elk knock down the fences I put up for my horses - so am I allowed to shoot them?
Suburbdweller you hit most points right on the head, so I do believe you understand the rural dweller, thanks.
Oh by the way my husband is a native Coloradoan, lived on the same road above Boulder for 40 yrs, was a caretaker of a mine where he milled and mined silver for over 10 yrs - we had to move to Park County because the smog coming into the foothills was affecting his sinuses and health - he became environmentally sensitive. So he was pushed out of his lifelong home by people (mostly from out of state) moving in and developing urban areas. He would not be able to work for a Texas company because he has no HS diploma or equivalent and yet is a well read man, master artisan, can build an entire log home by himself among many other accomplishments. He is a true blue Coloradoan whose Dad provided for his family of 6 kids by cowboying, mining and cutting firewood for sale. This is what Colorado is about and why we want to move to Wyoming, because it is no longer Colorado.
April 2, 2008
10:12 p.m.
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gladhest writes:
This is the email I wrote to Mr Hawn:
Mr Hawn,
To call it a ranch is a stretch, I've never known livestock to be present. You present a picture of an arrogant, ignorant city dweller to those of us who live in this rural area because we want to be in the country. Ranchers and others do cherish our sense of community. This sense is getting changed by people who have no clue as they move in. You fired a crew of expert stonemasons from another country, because they couldn't get your rock work "perfect". My husband is a perfectionist but the type of rock, Arkansas limestone, which you chose fractures too easily to do the seamless work you wanted. My husband worked for you for a couple of weeks, got one piece perfect, and the foreman came over to chip a small piece off, and ruined the entire piece. So for 7 or more days of work, my husband did not recieve a dime of pay. What kind of arrogance is that? Most people get paid by the hour, my husband is an artist in both metal and rock, if he can't do it very few could. You do not support the local community, rather you disdain their methods of eking a living. Monte was one of my favorite students when I substitute taught at the Fairplay schools, his brother Myles is one of my cousins best friends - you affect all of us by your uneducated acts of violence, you are a terrorist who thinks he is above the law. Because the law is "fence livestock out". It has nothing to do with the Amendment to protect yourself, or right to bear arms. Bob Agosti is a firm believer in the "right to bear arms" and yet your act disgusts him. You hired the shooters, you should be held accountable to pay Monte, not just for the cost of his animals, but what it cost him in the years of breeding and genetics to breed these animals. Wild bison were almost obliterated except for the efforts of one man about 100 yrs ago in South Dakota, and to kill any is an outrage. Unless they are being managed by a rancher who is knowledgeable in breeding and culling of the herd. Cows and bison and other livestock get out despite a manager's best efforts, and it seems that Monte always compensated any who were affected.
So did you fly your private airplane over to relish over the damage, as you did the day all the workers were warned you were coming to inspect your new mansion with 5 or more fireplaces and how many thousands of square feet? I for one know it is not a "trailer park", it is a huge wasteful extravagance for a man who doesn't know what else to do with more money than anyone needs.
Sorry to sound so bitter, but I believe in community and preserving the spirit of our ranch communities (and other rural areas).
April 3, 2008
11:44 a.m.
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ALawson writes:
Rich arrogant Texan baits local rancher's Bison off property and exploits Native Americans to do his dirty work and senselessly slaughter over 30 buffalo.
This whole thing makes me see red... How could he, How dare he, who does this guy think he is???
I think this should be brought up to anyone doing business with Attachmate. This is a direct reflection of the company's leadership and values. If this were a public company I guarantee the stock would have dropped because of this. I will hit every blog I can find about Attachmate and tell people what kind of person runs this company. I work for a large COLORADO based company in the IT department and make vendor decisions all the time - you can bet your a** I will never do business with Attachmate and I will do everything in my power to persuade others to do the same. I think we all need to pass this info around and do our part to stop this man from doing more harm...
April 22, 2008
8:02 p.m.
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eah03 writes:
As someone who loves both Texas & Colorado, I think it's disappointing to realize how many judgmental folks there still are out there. Good grief- some of you sound like those irritating people from high school at the homecoming football game against the big rival. Moveon.com! I know natives from both states who bemoan the stereotypes, but anyone who actually travels & sees other parts of the world other than where they were born is intelligent enough to get that Texas doesn't = rich & obnoxious anymore than Colorado ='s unspohisticated and redneck. This shouldn't be a "sport" of one state against another. Go to a Rockies/Astros game if that's what you're into. This is about property rights- not a pissing contest about which state is "better".
This is a sad story where there appears to be culpability on each side. Pets & wildlife should be contained on your own property, and when they do not- and cause damage- there should be consequences. However, wasteful slaughter should NOT be one of those consequences. i doubt many people- from Texas, Colorado, or Mars would disagree. Of course, I should point out many folks up in arms about this would not have a problem with a dog being shot for trespassing on a neighbor's property who was causing damage- to cattle or otherwise. Interesting comment on what PARTS of this story are actually incendiary to folks.
Instead of spending so much energy on stereotyping & name calling, why not focus on the facts & how to avoid more of these terrible situations? It's silly to let state pride (or lack of) take away from the real issue & tragedy here. I can ASSURE you, it would only take seconds to turn up dozens of similar sad stories with a "bad guy" from every state in the union...including Colorado. Better to focus more on changing the behavior than identifying the domicile.