Or perhaps adhering to Scripture
The Rev. Douglas Van Dorn, Erie
Monday, March 17, 2008
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In his letter of March 4, "Defying Scripture," Roger Balmer wonders why some Christians don't seem to understand biblical injunctions like "Thou shalt not kill" when they take a position in favor of the death penalty.
With regard to picking and choosing some verses from the Bible over others instead of taking "the whole council of God" together, what is there about these other verses that some Christians don't seem to understand: "Whoever does [insert any number of sins] shall be put to death." "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed." "They were given authority to kill with the sword."
There are only two answers. Either people intentionally create another God besides the one who wrote the whole Bible, or they ignorantly conflate laws that respect individuals ("Love your enemy," "Thou shalt not murder") with the lex talionis ("an eye for an eye") which respects the state, thereby inventing contradiction where none in fact exists. In the process, they deny the words of the New Testament that the one in authority "is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." (Romans 13:4).
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March 17, 2008
4:41 a.m.
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roger44 writes:
Man wrote the bible, not God. Therein lies the problem with the truth. It's becoming a "Kenneth Copeland" Christianity, all about the money and power it seems.
March 17, 2008
7:11 a.m.
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Old_Grouch writes:
Let's see now. First, we have the Je$u$ Bu$ine$$ nut cult - Haggardite - down in Colorado Springs, where the pulpit jackass tells us that the cult barns - churches? - should all have armed guards patrolling the aisles while the braying and bleating is going on.
And now, we have a pulpit jackass from out in Erie telling us to "insert any number of sins" into a demand for the death penalty, because - according to him - his "'god' wrote the book" with them included.
What next? A "missionary" group showing up at your door, armed with Uzis, and the "message": "Give your soul and your pocketbook to Je$u$, or else"?
Only in good old Cowlorado!
March 17, 2008
7:17 a.m.
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dillard writes:
"But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:4)"
I wonder of W knows about this verse? Seeing him dance around like a monkey as the U.S. Economy goes down the tubes and we're about to begin our 6th year in Iraq he sure doesn't appear to be afraid. Oh, I forgot, he's not responsibile for any of this, it's those, atheist,communist, liberal Democrats.
No matter what happens, Bush will soon be sitting back in Crawford
doing the same thing he's done for almost eight years, not worring about any of it.
March 17, 2008
8:05 a.m.
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vudumom writes:
The Bible is a work of fiction.Anyone who has half a brain should realize that.People however are weak and can't think for themselves.They somehow think following someone who bases the way they should live their lives on a fictional book and paying their 10% or more is going to get them a ticket to paradise.
I don't know if there is a heaven or hell.I do know I don't need someone to tell me how to live my life based on a book of fiction all for the low,low price of 10% of your income,that ends up going to make the (talking) head of a church richer.Am I and a few others the only ones that see this or are people really that blind?
March 17, 2008
8:19 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Reverend Van Dorn, I am glad I am not a member of your church. I can see that if I needed clarification on seeming conflicts in the Bible, I would be the recipient of a dismissive "you're inventing contradiction!" diatribe from you.
March 17, 2008
9:51 a.m.
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Yankee writes:
God instructs the heart with contradictions.
He might have inspired a manual written like the one you get with your computer. But He didn't.
He might have had his son appear on earth driving a golden chariot, leading legions into Rome to take over and sort everything out. But he didn't.
He might have created a garden with no serpent and no forbidden fruit. But he didn't.
In fact he might have just avoided all the fuss and bother of sin, free will and salvation and made us all angels. But he didn't.
Since God' thoughts cannot be our own all this seems upside-down and the only thing we really have is prayer.
St. Patrick's Prayer
I bind to myself this day the power of God to guide me, the might of God to uphold me, the wisdom of God to teach me, the eye of God to watch over me, the ear of God to hear me, the word of God to give me speech, the hand of God to protect me, the shield of God to shelter me, the host of God to defend me against evil, against the lust of nature, against every person who meditates injury to me, whether far or near, whether alone or with many.
I have invoked all these virtues against every hostile, savage power warring upon my body and soul, against the evil laws of paganism, against the false laws of heresy, against the false promises of idolatry and against all knowledge which blinds the soul of humanity.
Amen
Happy St. Patrick's Day!
March 17, 2008
9:51 a.m.
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LetsThink writes:
Thanks so much to Rev. Van Dorn for writing this editorial.
It's time that more pastors wrote editorials for our newspapers regarding God, Christ, and the Bible.
Instead, we have let atheists tell us what it says.
Hundreds of thousands of readers have been mislead by them. Which is their intention.
Christians need to help tell the lost and dying what the truth is.
March 17, 2008
10:01 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
The Rev seems to forget that the bible has been translated so many times, from languages that have words English does not (such as the 17 different types of love!) that you simply CANNOT take it literally. This situation is a prime example. The commandment of "Thou shalt not kill" is considered inaccurate by scholars, with the translation of "Thou shalt not murder" (in the sense of killing unjustly) being more accurate. The injunction is not against taking another life, but doing so baselessly and without sufficient cause.
The Rev is a perfect example of why I no longer consider myself Christian or believe in organized religion- they pick and choose when they shall take the bible literally or metaphorically, dependent upon their doctrine or the point they are trying to prove. Further, they refuse to acknowledge that:
- Though the bible may have been inspired by God, it was still written by man, so is fallible.
- Parts of the bible are NOT “direction revelations from God”, but the writer’s personal opinion, so should not carry the same weight. (Prime example is Paul’s writings where he states “in my opinion it is best that..”, and the off-quoted “woman, obey thy husband”.)
- The content of the bible is questionable; what would be and wouldn’t be included was VOTED upon by the Council of Nicea in 326 AD.
- Even the earliest gospel was written more than 30 years after Christ's death.
- Much of the bible is a sanitized version of Sumerian epics.
- Christians were being persecuted, so many of the letters were written in metaphors and allegories, thus can’t be taken literally. (Prime example is Revelations.)
- What was written needs to be taken in context of the times. (Prime example is the admonishment of women not talking in church.)
In other words, the bible has some good advice, but take the whole thing with a grain of salt!
March 17, 2008
10:07 a.m.
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Acemon writes:
If NotChasB considers himself a Christian and believes the non-superstitious are ruining the world, he would do well to remember Mark 7:15-21 "There is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man defile him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultry, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, sland, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." In other words, what I say does not corrupt you; it's your own thoughts within that are the corruption and horror.
NotChasB, your own words and actions condemn you. Look in the mirror and face the evil that you fear.
March 17, 2008
10:17 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
NotChasB is not a true Christian- he is vicious and full of hate. In his vitrolic rages against others, he forgets such passages as "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "before you point out the mote in another's eye, remove the plank from your own", "turn the cheek", and lastly but most importantly, "love one another". His intolerance and belief in his moral superiority is precisely what has been wrong with the church in the past and responsible for such horrific actions- look at the Crusades, Inquisition, Salem Witch Hunts, and forcable conversions.
March 17, 2008
10:25 a.m.
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Ted_in_Vegas writes:
Thank you for your insightful words, Rev. Van Dorn.
Those who choose to not believe will find whatever reasons to disbelieve they choose for their minds are already closed and their eyes clouded by faithlessness.
BTW, fiesty: If my secretary gets something wrong, she's accountable to me for that inaccuracy and I reveiw my letters before being sent to ensure there are no inaccuracies. If she rewrites, or translates (legalese to english, for example) I ensure the translation also is accurate. Is it too much to consider that an Almighty God is not more capable of the same?
Take, for example, the Council of Nicea. How was the Canon derived at? By comparing known, ORIGINAL writings against each other and only including those that were accurate to each other. Those that weren't accurate to the majority text were discarded - to be used millenia later by modern-day biblical liberals to discredit the Bible. Think about it, there are more than 5,000 1st-Century first hand accounts and accurate copies - all of which agree with each other and some modern translations (ie. KJV) - upon which the canon, and originalist texts, were based. On the other hand there are fewer than 500 discarded texts, upon which many "modern" translations depend as well scoffers - such as yourself.
The truth of God is seen in more than Bible, but the Bible is His message to us. I'll accept it and its consequences; if you don't accept it, you still get the consequences.
March 17, 2008
10:35 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Yankee, frankly I believe your post is what the Reverend Van Dorn should have said. You actually acknowledge the complexity of faith and seeming contradictions in the Bible, while Van Dorn seems to believe anyone confused about this complexity is a heretic.
Unless I read your post wrong and I don't think I did.
March 17, 2008
10:43 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
Ted_in_Vegas- scoffer? No. I was raised in an extremely religious household (my father is a reverend). When I became an adult, I realized how much the Christian religion tries to brainwash (discourage independent thought) and uses FEAR to control people (fear of hell and not being "saved", fear of being "immoral" etc).
My other big problem was how God was depicted in the bible. Have you ever tried a psychological profile of the God described in the bible? It results in a bi-polar psychopath. I can't believe that God would punish a devout follower [Job] so horrifically as a result of a wager with the devil, or tell his followers that they can have a promised land but to kill ALL people there (including women and children) though they are innocent from the crime committed 400 years earlier. (Punish the innocent for the crimes of another- "children paying for the sins of the father"). I do believe in a God, because I believe life couldn't have risen without one. However, the same God that would give free will would NOT act in this matter, to include the deliberate innoculation of fear.
One of the few items I take from the bible is Jesus' instructions when considering a spiritual matter- meditation, prayer, and consultation with wise minds. This is a clear instruction to use your brain! It also is in line with Jesus' teaching methods- he spoke in parables meant to provoke thought. He didn't order, nor did he say to follow the bible as a rulebook.
It's a fallacy to say that someone who isn't Christian, or doesn't agree with your interpretation, is going to "get the consequences". That's a fear tactic. It's also a fallacy to say what NotChasB does- that non Christians are immoral. You can be greatly spiritual and moral without being a Christian. Look at the Dalai Lama- in character, he is far far above just about any Christian I can think of.
March 17, 2008
11:07 a.m.
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Yankee writes:
MTS
You didn't.
Everyone is Irish on St. Paddy's day - even us Yanks.
March 17, 2008
11:24 a.m.
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titancain writes:
Bible readers ar idiots. Come on people!
March 17, 2008
11:30 a.m.
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jay writes:
come on people...everyone knows that god is just an imaginary friend for adults.
who cares what the bible says...IT IS A WORK OF FICTION WRITTEN BY MAN
no need to fear the boogeyman that doesn't exist
March 17, 2008
noon
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pklee527 writes:
It so easy to cherry-pick scripture and take them out of context. There is a difference between killing and murder and the Bible also talks about accountability. When public ministers fall like some do from time to time, then they are held to a higher account by God himself and they will have blood on their hands. Those ministers were probably not true Christians anyway. But you Agnostics and Athiests are stupid, you spend (waste)time, emotions, energy and even money fighting against something that you believe doesn't exist in the first place. You people are hopeless and that is because of your choice but it also means that you have hopelessness. Hopelessness never built a hospital, an orphanage, healed a wounded heart or for that matter, never solved any problem.
March 17, 2008
12:33 p.m.
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me2 writes:
Take a college course in how the Bible, as a book, was put together.
It is true the I, a card carrying "Lackacluest" fight religion, but I do it because it is so much fun. You think we waste time, money etc? Look at all the human resources wasted by religions in building, sending out missionaries etc.
We don`t fight against God/Goddess, but against religion itself. which makes Christmas so rewarding for us. The war on Christmas is a hoot, but the body count is too low.
Non-believers have never solved any problem for society? Now see that kind of universal statement makes Christians look petty.
Anti-chas. What do you call a dead believer? Dead! nothing more.
March 17, 2008
12:42 p.m.
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pklee527 writes:
For those of us that believe, no explanation is needed. For those of you who don't, no explanation will do.
March 17, 2008
12:44 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
NotChasB: "What you would like Christians to be are meek whipping boys that will not expose your lies and immorality and foolishness in the fake things that believe in."
Didn't Christ say the meek shall inherit the earth? Did he not espouse the turning of the cheek?
I believe many people would like to see more Christians exemplify the virtues of humility, mercy, and forgiveness that Christ espoused in his Sermon on the Mount.
Wouldn't you agree these are first and foremost the virtues Christians must strive for?
March 17, 2008
12:53 p.m.
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Acemon writes:
NatChasB, thank you again for providing a wonderful example of Christian behavior. "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
March 17, 2008
1:30 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
NotChasB:
"As a Christian I am also commended to tell people they are going to hell or God will hold me also resposible."
I assume you mean as a Christian, God wants you to spread the message of salvation so that more people will enter His flock.
What you are doing instead is depicting a frighteningly violent and hate-fueled judgment against people who aren't Christians and also, who interpret the Bible differently than you do.
In other words, you're not winning any converts. It's almost as if you were deliberately goading people into rejecting Christianity even more. Sounds like the Devil's work to me.
I suggest you re-evaluate your tactics.
March 17, 2008
1:36 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
NotChasB: "It also doesnt really matter what you think exemplifys "True" Christian values since you only pick the one you like and toss out the rest. Well unfortunately their are other things that exemplify Christian values like repentance and self denial of imoral things. All Psuedo Christians want forgiveness without repentance."
I believe you are misunderstanding the context in which I used "forgiveness" as a virtue. I mean that it's a virtue for Christians to practice forgiveness against others, especially if those others aren't particularly repentant for their transgressions.
That is the very core of Christian forgiveness and mercy.
The most famous example of this kind of forgiveness is of course, exemplified by Christ - when, as He lay dying on the cross, asked God to forgive those who nailed Him to it.
March 17, 2008
1:55 p.m.
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peterpi writes:
mytwosense @ 1:30,
Thank you very much!
The multitude of books in the Bible were written down by different people at different times in different circumstances and for different purposes. There were numerous "canonizations" (if that's a word) by Jews (Jewish Scriptures or Old Testament) and Christians (Jewish Scriptures and Christian Scriptures or New Testament). They were written down by people, therefore any divine revelation in them is imperfect because people are imperfect. The books were judged scriptural or not according to whether the books corresponded to "truth" as the men (I doubt there were women, unfortunately) of the canonical body perceived the truth.
The Bible should be viewd as a sum of its parts. There are certain universal themes: Social justice, error and redemption, love. Thats's what's important. But all too often that's what gets lost by believers who want to focus on details meant to bolster their case, such as the writer who defines himself (in his username) an anti-person.
March 17, 2008
2 p.m.
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fiesty writes:
m2sense- wow, you got NotChasB but good with the meek quote. Notice how he twists *everything* to agree with his opinions.
I love how folks like NotChasB must be psychic and able to know without proof or doubt that folks are immoral, corrupt heathens simply because they do not believe the same as he does. NotChasB scares me because of his fanaticism, vitrolic, false assumptions, and belief that he is perfect. I can easily see him during the time of the inquisition, torturing some poor soul because he "knows" they are full of sin and need to be saved...
March 17, 2008
2:07 p.m.
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GWM writes:
I only read part of this thread. I could not read it all. Calling the bible a work of fiction by men is like calling Shakespeare an idiot or Robert Frost a moron.
The bible, in its purest form is the word or God. Man translated it into a work that many of you find worthless. That is fine for you. The King James version is the best we have. Man alone could not have made this all up. It was "inspired" by God given to his prophets. If you accept it even with some of its short comings, it becomes a road map for life. You cannot go wrong by following its precepts. You can disagree or choose to go opposite, but you cannot go wrong by following the ten commandants or the two greatest commandments from Matthew: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Yes, even among my posts that offend, I am a follower. My two cents...
March 17, 2008
2:10 p.m.
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fiesty writes:
My understanding is that the belief in Christ is the fundamental criteria of whether or not someone is "saved".
That is not the same as 1) believing in the bible as the literal, unblemished word of God, 2) agreeing with church doctrine, or 3) going to or agreeing with organized religion.
NotChasB ought to read his own bible better. He calls you an "immoral corrupt heathen" or "atheist" simply because HIS definition differs.
March 17, 2008
2:10 p.m.
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jay writes:
"The bible, in its purest form is the word or God. "
interesting theory...but i have a question.
when, how and to whom did the skydaddy give dictation?
March 17, 2008
2:15 p.m.
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Old_Grouch writes:
Just a little word of history - for those who actually take historical fact seriously that is - it was not the Council of Nicea in 396 that put together the Canon of Scripture. And, the Canon was not a matter of comparison of "originals", since the preservation of an "original" over several Centuries - especially of the scrolls making up the Old Testament - would have been a miracle far beyond any that Christians ever expected, or needed.
The comparisons were to the ORAL TRADITION of the Christian Church; and the version of the Hebrew books was that of the Septuagint, the Greek "70" that was in use among the Jews in the Diaspora throughout the Mediterranian litoral.
My beliefs are expressed in the Symbolion, at every Liturgical event. They are not, of course, those of any part of the Je$u$ Bu$ine$$ (Prote$tanti$m); nor are they of Romanism. But, having long ago given references wherein anyone can find the history, and Theology, of CHRISTIANITY, and having had the references ignored in favor of trash-talk from the nut-cult boys and girls, about what CHRISTIANS "ought to believe" - according to some Je$u$ Bu$ine$$ (Prote$tant) pulpit jackass, or according to whatever their own fanatsy of religion may be - I'll not deal with that further on this blog.
Play "Church" among yourselves, kiddies. Christians know that God has a very lively sense of humor, and a great appreciation for little children, even those long past that stage chronologically.
March 17, 2008
2:24 p.m.
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Acemon writes:
NotChasB, who are you to sit in judgement of my deeds when you know not who I am or what I have done? You insult and belittle any who disgree with you. You act like a spoiled child being told it's time for a nap. There is only one person in this forum who twists words to suit their notions, and that person is you. Here's an additional quote I believe suits you perfectly:
Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."
Admit the truth: you don't come to these forums to discuss ideas and share opinions. You come merely to vent your hatred of others, and spew bile and venom from behind a mask of anonymity. You envy people who live free from guilt and fear of the unknown, and this forum is where your "inner wolf" is revealed, but it won't work.
What say the others in this forum? Are the moderate, mainstream Christians willing to let NotChasB represent them, or will you stand up to denounce his hatred as being repugnant and ignorant?
Who leads a more virtuous life: the man who has no religion but follows the examples of Christ, or the man who claims Christian status but only makes mockery of it's teachings?
March 17, 2008
2:26 p.m.
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GWM writes:
jay, I read your posts. I know we do not agree, but I read you and respect your postings. From multiple postings, I know somewhat about you. I do not know you and would not presume to say so.
The "skydaddy" spoke, through visions and even manifestations since man came to the earth. He spoke to Adam, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Nehemiah, and on and on. His words have been perversed by man. I do not deny that. But to say it is fanciful and fiction is to discount history. I only ask that you not discount it off handed. At this moment in time, you do not want to listen to those that have faith. Just give us a break.
March 17, 2008
2:36 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
jay: "when, how and to whom did the skydaddy give dictation?"
The basis of your question is a serious and valid one, and one that many a Biblical scholar have made it their life's work to study.
How you in particular are phrasing the question leads me to believe that you might think the Bible was written all at once, by one person. It was actually written by 40 writers over a period well over a thousand years. Not all of the writers' identities are definitively known. As texts in the Bible state, the writers were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit.
What is fascinating is how, from so many sources and over such a lengthy period of time, this Book has endured.
March 17, 2008
2:51 p.m.
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Fresh writes:
gotta love how morons like NCB claim they know all the meaning of what is written in the bible as if they were THERE!
man you should be on TV selling your BULSHT , at least you would be making money off it!
spewing it here just makes you look like a dumbass . If I believed in fantasy I could probably convince myself of anything too.
March 17, 2008
3:09 p.m.
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fiesty writes:
OG is right- the Council of Nicea did not put together the canon. Constaninople got tired of the bickering, and brought in the preeminent religous leaders of the day for the FIRST council (most don't know there were two, one in 325 and one in 787). Its sole purpose was to resolve disagreements, and they literally VOTED on what would be included, and most votes were far from unanimous.
Acemon- "Who leads a more virtuous life: the man who has no religion but follows the examples of Christ, or the man who claims Christian status but only makes mockery of it's teachings?" Darn, put you put succinctly what I tried to say earlier!
March 17, 2008
3:10 p.m.
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KW writes:
mts - My apologies. In another Obama thread I grouped you as someone not in full understanding of the strength and power a persons faith can have on them.
From your above post I see you to at least have working knowledge of the scriptures which tells me I was out of place to make such an assumption. You also described the process by which the Bible came to be quite eloquently.
Now that my interruption of this thread is thru, you may all resume your rumbling.
March 17, 2008
3:32 p.m.
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Eagle5 writes:
Amen to the Rev. Those of you who do not believe, I can not change your minds. For me, I believe there is a God Almighty and a Jesus Christ. You do not need to read the bible to believe this - just open your eyes
March 17, 2008
3:46 p.m.
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GWM writes:
NotChasB, please do not make arguments on behalf of Christians or the "right". You embarrass us.
March 17, 2008
4:02 p.m.
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leftside writes:
Well........I think it's been made abundtly clear here today that God will not be receiving postive referrences on all of you heathens, serpents and swine from NCB. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
March 17, 2008
4:04 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Leftside, no truer words said. The swine should either run for cover or gather the pearls quickly before NCB gets them.
March 17, 2008
4:14 p.m.
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Charles_B writes:
NotChasB:
"Christ made it perfectly clear what he said and meant."
Could you post a clip on Youtube?
Otherwise, you're an idiot.
March 17, 2008
4:23 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Chas_B, I agree that your evil bother is an idiot. Christ had one too. Don't use NCB as a yardstick. (I know you don't). Some of the more level heads would love to debate what NCB has no capacity to say. You have a level head and a perspective that I disagree with. Please don't judge us all by NCB and his ilk.
March 17, 2008
4:46 p.m.
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wow writes:
GWM---
Hey, nice to see you.
I got here late. Did NCB turn in for his daily self castegation?
Is it safe? Are all the pearls gone?
I will talk religion with you too....I'm your favorite sick, twisted, swine whoremonger. Admit it. :)
I think me2's code for that title combo (short hand for NCB speak) was a 146. Can't remember.
March 17, 2008
4:48 p.m.
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wow writes:
That's castigation...as in please don't castigate me for butchering the spelling of castigation.
March 17, 2008
4:54 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Maybe you meant castration.
March 17, 2008
5:32 p.m.
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wow writes:
LOL, noooo, but that's a very interresting suggestion. This is NCB we speak of.
March 17, 2008
5:54 p.m.
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rdmartin writes:
castigation means scolding, and it is spelled correctly.
March 17, 2008
6:14 p.m.
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wow writes:
Castigation means punishment, esp of a corporal nature, for penance. Self castigation would be something like flogging one's self while praying for forgiveness.
I spelled it wrong in the original post...Pehaps I should be castigated.
Any takers? Bawahahaha
March 17, 2008
6:17 p.m.
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greenleaf writes:
Hello WOW and GWM,
How are you guys? I usually stay out of religious matters for fear of showing my ignorance and offending someone.
I would however like to make a point about NotChasB. I engaged him recently with respect and he responded in kind. He also indicated that he was trying but didn't like being "blind sided" by people throwing insults at him ( I know: "the pot calling the Kettle black"). I have since observed him, particularly in this forum and noticed that he seems to be using many fewer insults of late and actually slowing down and being coherent.
I don't want to offend anyone here. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for the two of you in particular. You both have issues with NCB but maybe you could work with him and give him another chance. I think he has something to say that is worth listening to. Maybe if a few of us try to start over with him, we can make our little forum an easier, kinder place in which to discuss important issues. What do the two of you think?
March 17, 2008
6:29 p.m.
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GWM writes:
greenleaf, you are a level head. I have not seen that from NCB. I will give her a second chance if she stays sane, but I have not seen that in the past.
So, after the big bang, how do you think modern man developed? Is you uncle and/or cousin a monkey? ;-)
March 17, 2008
6:31 p.m.
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GWM writes:
lcdrjjxant, go lick a rock that is frozen. In your case, the Mormons were right on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
March 17, 2008
7:06 p.m.
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IronmanCarmichael writes:
"Calling the bible a work of fiction by men is like calling Shakespeare an idiot or Robert Frost a moron."
On a strictly narrative basis, the Bible is a sleazy potboiler riddled with sex and violence that's supposedly redeemed by some high-blown philosophy and recycled mythology.
"Man alone could not have made this all up."
Why not? In a more primitive age when man did not have digital technology to do his creating for him, man was forced to use his imagination and develop his talents. (In an interesting slant to the "creationist" theory, we happen to have evidence of who created the myriad man-made wonders of the world, also--roughly--when and how, and don't harbor delusions that these things "just happened.") And back when there was nothing to do but sit around and tell stories, and with considerably less working knowledge of his his environment worked, why, the possibilities were endless. The reason religion was invented was to help humans cope with the reality and finality of death.
"you cannot go wrong by following the ten commandants"
Actually, there are dozens of absolutely unspeakable acts that, technically, don't break a single one of them. In fact, we need a couple of them: the entire American economic system is based on "coveting." And many people are forced to work on the Sabbath.
March 17, 2008
7:27 p.m.
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greenleaf writes:
GWM,
NCB isn't a guy? My miscalculation. The Chas through me off I guess.
As to my relation to monkeys: that I'm not sure of. I'm too busy trying to avoid being one to worry if I came from one:>)
March 17, 2008
7:29 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
lcdrjjxant: "I just heard O'Reilly call Obama's preacher, an "American Hater".
I'm not surprised. The far right website Newsmax.com is titling one of his sermons the "Hate America" sermon, even though Wright says nothing about hating America in it.
Well, this is what we can expect, and, after watching them tarnish John Kerry's two tours of duty in Vietnam, be prepared for.
If this business with Wright hadn't happened, they would have still branded Obama unpatriotic because of that statement his wife made. And if she hadn't made that statement, they would have stuck to their original reason for questioning his loyalty to America: his middle name is Hussein.
They are grasping at straws, but this time, Americans realize we have much bigger issues to solve in this country.
March 17, 2008
8:31 p.m.
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KW writes:
Correct mts, your link is but one of three I've found trying deparately to tie OB to a sermon. While I believe the incriminating videos will surface at some point, let us be weary of such slanted media attempts at proving his alibi wrong thru inaccurate claims and inuendo.
If OB is shown to truly be lying about his association with this pastor we need to be sure, but if OB is innocent as he claims, I will be the first one to admit as much and give him a pass on his association with Mr. Wright.
March 17, 2008
8:36 p.m.
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KW writes:
PS - I'm not holding my breath though.
BTW - Can you provide any links to any of Wright's sermons where he perhaps talks of somehing positive about the country he claims to love so much? At least one positive statement he's uttered in the last 20+ years other than how his "kind" are oppressed?
I've searched but I'm coming up empty.
March 17, 2008
9:47 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
KW, I haven't looked. Honestly, this whole situation has turned my stomach, and no offense to you for your interest in it. I understand this means something to you. But I'm seeing a 70 year old man who served his country in the armed forces and probably saw some heavy stuff go down in the civil rights era basically get pilloried for uttering statements that frankly aren't anymore radical than I've said myself about Bush and some of this country's policies.
Anyway, it is sad to see Obama distance himself from this man. I imagine his advisors have told him it's the politically smart thing to do.
--Sigh.---
March 17, 2008
10:18 p.m.
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leftside writes:
From mytwosense,
"If this business with Wright hadn't happened, they would have still branded Obama unpatriotic because of that statement his wife made. And if she hadn't made that statement, they would have stuck to their original reason for questioning his loyalty to America: his middle name is Hussein."
.......but don't call it "gotcha politics" mts, it makes them very angry.
March 17, 2008
10:37 p.m.
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me2 writes:
Some observations on history. Adam, Moses, Joshua, all those mentioned in the Bible, except perhaps Paul, are not listed in history books anywhere.
There is no official history of Jews in Egypt building monuments or anything else. Moses is as much an invention as Adam, you know, that guy born with a navel, well not born actually just made out of dirt, and his companion Eve who had breasts but no babies, and a uterus but no periods.
And this whole business with swine gets me. If God made pigs, then why is he so hard on them? Pigs can`t sin can they?
If God wrote the Bible why are there so many variations of different books? Such as the book of Ruth which has been found with a variety of endings. Why did one form make it into the book while all the other Ruth stories were kept out? People made those decisions, not God.
And the Ten Suggestions should have been 15 with (11) thou shall not rape anyone or anything. (12) thou shall not have sex before marriage, (13)Thou shall not lie about anything (14) thou shall not beat thy wife or children and (15) thou shall not relieve sexual tension alone.
There, now that covers a good deal more.
Not only are most of the Biblical folks a myth, but even the towns and tribes are invented in many cases.
Like I said, go take a cheap course in the making of the Bible, it is worse than watching someone make sausage.
March 18, 2008
6:20 a.m.
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pklee527 writes:
Hey me2,
Are you hurting? It is obvious that you have case of constipation of the brain and diahrea of the mouth. There have been so many archological discoveries that back up the Bible. Not one has contradicted it. However, what I say in its defense will not matter to you or any one else that (doesn't)think(s) like you. Two facts still remain- one -you will die and two-you will spend eternity somewhere. Where is up to you.
March 18, 2008
7:13 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
pklee527- contrary to what you think, they have discovered evidence that refutes the bible. For example, clay tablets from Sumeria which outline creation and flood myths in epic form. The version in the bible is a "sanitized" version, which is virtually identical just with different names.
March 18, 2008
7:50 a.m.
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pklee527 writes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronolo...
Read "underlying issues".
March 18, 2008
8:19 a.m.
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Charles_B writes:
pklee527 offers us a glimse of what it's like to live in UpIsDownWorld:
"There have been so many archological discoveries that back up the Bible. Not one has contradicted it."
Not one discovery has contradicted the biblical version of creation eh?
And I suppose no scientific discovery has contradicted the Earth-centric notion of astronomy exhibited in the bible.
Funny, funny stuff.
March 18, 2008
8:50 a.m.
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GWM writes:
Charles_B, I am certainly not an authority on the bible. I just enjoy reading it. Do you have a reference that alludes to an Earth-centric notion in the bible?
March 18, 2008
9:01 a.m.
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GWM writes:
Sorry Chas_B, I did my own research. Joshua 10:13 and 2nd Kings 20:11 and Matthew 24:29 are just a few that some extrapolate to meaning the earth is the center of the univers.
There is a lot of man's interpretation in any biblical verse. Sometimes it is wrong. To say the bible is the literal word of God is a fallacy. I *believe* most of it was inspired by God and man got it wrong some of the time.
The literal formation of everything in six days is also absurd, but the six periods *may have* occurred over 4.5 bil years.
March 18, 2008
9:48 a.m.
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KW writes:
God's days are probably a lot longer than ours.
March 18, 2008
9:50 a.m.
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rg writes:
God appoints premier scribes, scriveners, and mouthpieces: Pastor Wright, Rev. Hague, Rev. Haggard, Rev. Robertson, Rev. Falwell, Pedophile Priests, Bishops Cardinals, Popes, Prophets, Seers, Revelators, Imams, Fatwa providers, and God Allah provides 640 messengers including five resolute dudes: Moses, Noah, Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad making it impossible to exaggerate the evil they have done in this world. Read your “Babble” and Book of Mormon, Qu’ran, and other Ghost inspired lit except you won’t find lit from the dude whom all blame for evil since the devil gets a bum rap since he never wrote a book. Richard Grimes: Deicide.
Deicide Corner: I’ve noticed in these blogs on religion that 80% of America is Christian while 80% of the contributors commenting are anti-religion. Did you know Catholic school teaches that 9/11 was an act of god in payment for America's sinfulness as does Rev. and pastors in America and worldwide?
March 18, 2008
10:09 a.m.
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GWM writes:
rg:
"Did you know Catholic school teaches that 9/11 was an act of god in payment for America's sinfulness..."
No, I did not know that and do not believe it! References please!
"...as does Rev. and pastors in America and worldwide?"
You can find anyone that will say anything at any given moment in time. Do you think any of the ones you could cite speak for mainstream Christian religion? Falwell only speaks for those that send him money. He is definitely not mainstream. All those you site, do not speak for me nor the vast majority of religionists.
March 18, 2008
10:22 a.m.
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GWM writes:
Of course, I did not say it correctly:
You can find *someone* what will say anything at any given moment in time.
March 18, 2008
10:35 a.m.
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rg writes:
Yo Gay White Male (GWM): Evolution of a Freethinker: Catholic Education Forcing Young Minds to Deal with an Irrational Philosophy by Paul Harang: “My first assignment in eighth grade: comb through my new religion textbook and change every date followed by “B.C.E.” or “C.E.” to “B.C.” or “A.D. … In sixth grade, I asked a teacher if it was sinful to doubt God. She said it was normal to doubt God, as long as you do not really doubt him. … As I grew older … The deacon’s sermons … blamed homosexuals… for 9/11 … calling it an act of God.” From Paul Harang: College Essay Competition Honorable Mention FreeThought Today March 2008: wwwffrf.com
Yo GWM: All religion is typical of the Koran such as simply adding one line to the existing Koran that says “If you see a red-haired woman on your lawn at sunset, kill her,” a lot of red-haired woman would die. The Bible says in Luke 19:27 assassinate them if they don’t agree with you. Why do you find it difficult to believe Catholicism blames 9/11 on the same grounds as Falwell, Robertson, Wright and surely thousands of other scriveners for God? Richard Grimes: Deicide.
Deicide Corner: “Let us pray for the Jews. May the Lord Our God enlighten their hearts so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, as the savior of all men. Pope Ratzinger (Yo GWM: This is common knowledge practiced by the pedophiles in the Church.)
March 18, 2008
11:08 a.m.
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GWM writes:
rg, from your link, I found this (actually, your link does not work, but I figured it out):
"The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion.
In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women's right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery.
The Foundation works as an umbrella for those who are free from religion and are committed to the cherished principle of separation of state and church."
A pretty bold statement without providing sources wouldn't you say?
I do not find it difficult at all for some or even many Catholics blaming something on some events. I just do not buy it as true Catholicism.
"“Let us pray for the Jews. May the Lord Our God enlighten their hearts so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, as the savior of all men. Pope Ratzinger"
I am not Catholic, but I pray for Jews and other non-believers to come to the truth as well. That does not make me the authority on religion any more than it does Falwell and his ilk.
Luke 19:27 - "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Yes, rather harsh. One of the harshest statements. It can be taken literally or figuratively just like any other statement from the bible or any other religious book. It does not mean any book is completely correct or completely wrong.
I acknowledge there is no way to defend every word in any religious document because it has been translated by man over and over. I find the bible a very useful tool in my belief of the past, present and beyond.
March 18, 2008
11:40 a.m.
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rg writes:
Seventy one years old and I have to make life's first mistake: Try ffrf.org (but you did). Please, GWM, no intercessory or imprecative prayers for me: I am a happy camper. Your friendly deicide, member of the sword of time that sends all gods to Mythology Cemetery. I enjoyed your civil discourse.
March 18, 2008
11:53 a.m.
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Faux_Noise writes:
GWM,
What makes Jews and other non-Christians "non-believers?" The mythology is different, but there is no absence of belief.
I think the answer is that you, like all "believers", KNOW that yours is the only true path to God. Why would God make so many religions around the world, if only one is correct?
March 18, 2008
11:58 a.m.
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GWM writes:
rg, absolutely no imprecative prayers from my friends or from me. That has been done in the name of religion far too often. However, you cannot stop my intercessory prayers. ;-) You might be thankful someday.
Only the kindest of thoughts to you, although we disagree. He will not slay you if/when you choose to come before Him. Only a smile and an embrace.
March 18, 2008
12:05 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Ah, Faux_Noise, a most excellent point!! He did not make so many religions - man did. I do not offer apology that I feel Christianity is the only true course. There are too many of the Christian faiths that offer false doctrine from man's interpretation. You must choose wisely pilgrim.
March 18, 2008
12:23 p.m.
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Faux_Noise writes:
So how do you know yours is the one true Christian faith?
March 18, 2008
12:33 p.m.
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GWM writes:
To *know* is relative. I *believe* mine is correct from studying multitudes of examples. I feel I have received a testament to the truth. I am certainly not the only one entitled to *believe* or receive a testament. Others believe their beliefs are true. No one will *know* until the end. And the world will continue to turn whomever is correct until He comes again, and then we will all *know*.
March 18, 2008
1:44 p.m.
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rg writes:
To know is personal opinion for it is bias and prejudice that determines divinity. Me, Deicide, member of the sword of time that slays all gods. I'll kill 'em all.
March 18, 2008
1:53 p.m.
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GWM writes:
rg,
"To know is personal opinion for it is bias and prejudice that determines divinity." Yes, personal bias and personal prejudice which determines any religion's make-up. No argument.
Certainly you are free to try and slay God. I hope your sword is either not made out of metal or is well grounded. ;-)
March 18, 2008
2:42 p.m.
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rg writes:
Yo GWM: I have slain millions; Mythology Cemetery is like hell: Full-up. My sword is called "Truth:" It is impossible to exaggerate the evil the spoke in the wheel of excrement has perpetrated upon the world. My sword slices through the spoke like a hot knife through butter. Richard Grimes, the sweetest name in any language (I can imagine the loons harping on me for that jest).
March 18, 2008
3:33 p.m.
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mds3 writes:
To Faux_Noise and GWM
Everyone is committed to something either himself or someone else. I am unashamedlly committed to Christ. He says that we may know the truth if we trust what he says. I trust him because he is God. I am certain that what he has said is true and right because he is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, almighty, all-wise, all-knowing and perfect in his holiness, goodness, justice and truth. All other philosophies, religions or worldviews are built upon upon the musings and thoughts of finite, ignoble and weak human beings. Those who commit themselves to their own way or the way of other men cannot be certain of anything - not even their uncertainty. Those who are committed to Jesus Christ may be certain, even in their uncertainty, that Jesus' words are altogether sure and true, because of who he is. Remember, the scripture says, "There is a way that seems right to a man but the end therof is death".
March 19, 2008
11:38 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
Trusting in God, and trusting in the bible, are not synomous.
March 23, 2008
7:33 a.m.
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mds3 writes:
To Feisty
Yes they are. To assume otherwise is to assume that you have the ability to understand God in and of yourself, which makes God someone of your own making. The finite cannot understand the infinite unless the infinite condescends to reveal himself to the finite. He has done so in the scriptures alone. It is unlike any other book. Check it out carefully and prayerfully. It's claims have never been refuted, but rather verified by other evidence, historic, forensic and experiential.
March 24, 2008
7:37 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
Not true. Reference my post earlier regarding the fallability and inaccuracy of the bible.
I believe it takes more faith to disbelieve the bible than it does to believe it. i.e. My faith tells me that God would never act in the manner described in the bible. (bipolar psychopath)