Defying Scripture

Roger Balmer, Ault

Published March 4, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.

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March 4, 2008

6:31 a.m.

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LetsThink writes:

Dear Roger.
I appreciate your question.

Do you belong to a Bible teaching church? If so, you should take this question to your pastor.

If you don't attend a Bible teaching church, I will try to provide a very simple answer.

The verses you quoted were God's instruction to individual men (people). We are not to individually take a life (such as Abortion).

But God has put the government in place in order to control the rebellion of mankind. And if you read the Old Testament, he clearly instructs the 'government' to take the lives of murderers and other criminals.

I hope that brief answer helped. But do go to a Bible teaching pastor for further explanation.

By the way, from your position, I assume that you are leading the fight against ABORTION?

If so, I applaud your heart and desire to honor God.
March 4, 2008

7:16 a.m.

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Old_Grouch writes:

You must have failed both history and any course concerning government very early on in the lower grades.

The Civil Government of the United States DOES NOT derive from something done by your "god".

Rather, the principle upon which the Constitution, and the Civil Government, of this Nation was established is clearly stated: "Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed."

The Founding Fathers put "god" OUT of government.

It's up to today's citizens to KEEP "god" OUT of government.
March 4, 2008

8:24 a.m.

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Spencer writes:

It is Pro "Unborn" life, don't you get it? The GOP cares about kids until they are born. Once they are born, no longer useful in getting people to vote a certain way.
March 4, 2008

9:17 a.m.

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logic187x writes:

The verses you quoted were God's instruction to individual men (people). We are not to individually take a life (such as Abortion).

But God has put the government in place in order to control the rebellion of mankind. And if you read the Old Testament, he clearly instructs the 'government' to take the lives of murderers and other criminals.

I love the transition...when ever some one is asked to explain something God has said or done, it's always "Then god did this or made that." I have a friend who is a Witness for big J, and I asked him why he would not get a tattoo. He said it's in the bible not to do such things, I then asked him if he shaved his sideburns? He knew I already knew the answer to that. So his reply was "You just have t have a rule for everything don't you?" I said "I don't need rules YOU do." The verse about not shaving sideburns is just before the one about Tattooing and such. I don't remember where, but it's in there and I'm sure one of the more bibically versed here could find it. However if you do, you would be proving my point about the way people pick and choose what they want to suit their need for the moment.I don't agree with abortion on many levels, but putting that aside for a moment, countering the letter writer's question with abortion does not really answer the writer's question. What if the writer means abortion too? Then you are left with no ammo to jab with, I see this happen on the right very often. Once you get to the meat of the subject and turn the discussion back to where it started, they seem to not have an answer, and will try a new deflection tactic.

Mike Rosen does this all the time, He will tell you about his ability to debate, and state that it's not about being right on the issue , it's about winning the debate. I would take that to mean he would say what it took to make his argument, it's up to you to find out if he has mis-represented something. Again I have witnessed him say as much on his radio show, but I suspect he would not own up to it if her were asked in this forum, the discussion would then turn to weather or not he has said this before. Again proving my point.

The question was...With regard to the death penalty, what is there about the following verses from the Bible that "Christian" America doesn't seem to understand: "Thou shalt not kill." "Recompense to no man evil for evil." "Love your enemy." "Avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath." "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

The answer to me is quite simple Christians are simply choosing to ignore those tenets and laws when it suits them, and obeying them when it is expedient to do so

If I'm wrong show me where.
March 4, 2008

11:02 a.m.

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Old_Grouch writes:

logic187,

The larger number of funny-mental-case religionists writing here couldn't even pass Elementary Logic 100; and they flunked both history and civics way back in the lower grades.

The most prolific of them hasn't been able to construct a syllogism in all the months I've been reading the website; and it is highly doubtful he ever will, even in a geometric multiple of the months already expended. BUT! He - along with the others - will most certainly fill reams, and reams, and reams, and . . . of space telling you how "morally superior" they (and incidentally, their positions, ideas, arguments, etc., etc.) are. And they will never run out of nasty, ugly, personality insults to emphasize their own (self) righteousness either.

Sort of an example of reverse evolution. Man doesn't "ascend" up from the primates. But, BOY! How he certainly does "descend", down to the level of the monkey house at the zoo, with superstitious ignorance.
March 4, 2008

11:23 a.m.

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LetsThink writes:

What a shame that some people feel the need to attack/deride other people, rather than offer true support for their position.

Very sad.
March 4, 2008

11:44 a.m.

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T1anda writes:

It would be refreshing if we could keep Obama OUT of government, Hillary OUT of government, and McCain OUT of government.

Along with the majority of self-serving,power-hungry,politicians that stink up the halls in the buildings of Washington D.C. and the halls in the buildings of State governments.
March 4, 2008

12:28 p.m.

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me2 writes:

How did God/Goddess put government in place. I thought we did that with tribal leaders, chiefs, councils.

How come religious folks never give any credit to HUMANS for the good we do?

We invented leadership, marriage, the judicial system etc. We are a neat species.
March 4, 2008

12:34 p.m.

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Old_Grouch writes:

belltennis,

Yep! Your right! It's almost as much a shame as those people who have no REAL position to begin with - and no sound basis in FACTS for what they imagine to be their position - and then take up endless space insisting that their fantasies and confabulations are more important to the Nation and to the world than dealing with actual problems, and attempting to leave our descendents a - at least somewhat - better world than we ourselves inherited. T.S. all round, isn't it?
March 4, 2008

4:03 p.m.

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Eagle5 writes:

I do not agree with you; but I am glad you voiced your opinion and belief - good for you! I can not help say that people who have been convicted (and really where there is no doubt whatsoever) of murder should face the ultimate of death - it is no more than what they did to their victim(s). I still only wish the process really would be speeded up (why should they be allowed to breath air while their victim(s) no longer have that God-given right) and that shooting or hanging were still in the state's options
March 4, 2008

6:42 p.m.

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IronmanCarmichael writes:

Actually, from forums like this one, I have learned quite a lot about the Bible from those who seem to know it very well. Apparently, everything in the Bible is flexible, optional, just in there for filler, or victim of a faulty translation--"Thou shalt not kill," as biblical scholar NotChasB explains, really should be "Thou shalt not murder" (how interesting that that's only being clarified now)--EXCEPT for the one or two anti-gay passages. Those and not the Commandments, it seems, were etched in stone. In fact, the very words Bible and Scripture, properly translated, mean "Why Homosexuality Is the Worst Thing In the World."

Isn't that convenient (unless you're gay)?
March 5, 2008

7:30 a.m.

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me2 writes:

I think the original, original said "thou shall do no murder" but that is terrible English.

But there is a long list of people we can smite, slay or destroy so the fun never ends.
March 5, 2008

8:27 a.m.

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Old_Grouch writes:

Biblical translation is, after all, an art; as is translation from any "dead" language. Considering that the original languages of the collection of books - manuscripts - making up the Bible were Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek (and some Classical Greek as well), rendition of any passage into a "modern" form is, at best, approximate at times.

The Hebrew of the original does transliterate - as closely to exact as possible - as, "Thou shalt not do murder"; which is a bit of a circumlocution for even the 16th-17th Century English of the King James Version. "Murder" here, as elsewhere in the original, dealing with the intentional and deliberate taking of another individual's life - currently rendered legally as "premeditated/premeditation" - for whatever reason(s). The early translators, living as they did in a culture just barely removed from the feudal, rendered the words into as strong a statement as they could, using the word, "kill". The cultural "passtime" of little wars, between rival Nobles, and various and sundry internal "revolutions" - The War of the Roses, for instance - was very much in the minds of the translators; and they sought to do what they could to put an end to as much of the bloodshed as might be possible, especially among those possessed of the days "arms" - swords and very early firearms - in hopes of . . . whatever one might hope for at that point in time and history.

Of course, all throughout history there has been war, of one kind or another; and various and sundry forms of killing, both "murder" in the specific sense of a premeditated crime, and as a policy of even the Roman Religion itself, with the auto da fe and burning at the stake measures of dealing with heretics.

What should it be today? Perhaps a return to the circumlocution - however inconvenient - would be a better application of the principle behind the idea of the Commandment. But, that take us rather far afield.
March 7, 2008

9:57 a.m.

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drew writes:

logic187 said: "And if you read the Old Testament, he clearly instructs the 'government' to take the lives of murderers and other criminals."

Well, if you read your bible, God also clearly says that disobedient children should be taken to the gates of the city & stoned to death - so too, adulterous wives. And I also believe that those who eat shellfish should be destroyed. I hope that logic187 & his bible-faithful friends are following these instructions to the letter - there is a lot of blood to be spilled.

It strikes me that the bible is full of murder, mayhem, revenge, bloodletting, battery, sex, smiting, jealousy, spitefulness, vengeance punishment & general mayhem - no matter what the age or gender.

Does this sound like a loving, caring, forgiving God to you? If God were omnipotent, omniscient & all loving (which I believe She/He is, by the way) why would he become jealous if you looked at a "false" god? Why would he smite people out of petty spitefulness if they never followed his instructions to the letter? Why would he require that we always bow down to him & praise him if he were that powerful.

This sounds more like the workings of the mind of a petty tyrant at the head of a fundamentalist family - and that should give you a clue as to who wrote this jumble of incomprehensible, contradictory dreck in the first place.
March 7, 2008

11:06 p.m.

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logic187x writes:

Ummm Drew?

I didn't say that, belltennis said that...you should read all the comments on the post, and read the whole comment in particular before you post. That way we won't have any mistakes or misunderstandings as to what i'm talking about....all you have done is make my point...

Tell all this to belltennis that is the person who feels the way he/she does about the bible and faith.
March 7, 2008

11:47 p.m.

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logic187x writes:

And to belltennis:

Why do you consider what I said an attack? is it because I don't share your view of how government started? Or that the answer you gave Roger was lacking?....Or is it because you did what most people do when explaining the bible...just credit God?...

All I'm saying is...when I ask the question "How did Kain find a wife, if at the time of Able's death there were only three people left on the planet?" I don't what the answer to consist of "Well there were more people they just didn't appear in the bible." or something akin to that. because that is not an answer it is a misdirection just like this comment...

"What a shame that some people feel the need to attack/deride other people, rather than offer true support for their position.

Very sad."

What this shows me is that when confronted with LOGIC you would rather change the subject. I did show support for my position then and I'm showing it now as well, I gave the example of tattoos and sideburns...Then, and I'm using Kain and Able now....what more do you need?

Drew, the person that mistakenly thought I wrote your comments talked about stoning kids, and cheating wives. All things we are still supposed to be doing because God's words never change...correct?

There is only one group of people that don't shave sideburns as a mater of faith, so that tells me this book was not written for all of us, but adapted by people that wanted something to believe in.

Now for the part I know you will love...I do believe in God

I just don't feel the same way you do about him.

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Defying Scripture

Roger Balmer, Ault

Published March 4, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.

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