Evangelicals' political clout wanes, scholars say
Bush years hurt cause; young shift to different issues
By Mark Barna, The Gazette
Originally published 12:05 a.m., June 30, 2008
Updated 06:03 a.m., June 30, 2008
Photo by Alex Brandon/Associated Press
Barack Obama
James Dobson
Last week, James Dobson of Focus on the Family railed against Sen. Barack Obama for distorting the Bible and trying to govern by the "lowest common denominator of morality."
But if he was trying to rally his base of Christian evangelists to vote against Obama, he might need a lot more than a censorious radio address.
Evangelicals got credit for helping put George W. Bush in the White House, but religious and political scholars say they won't have nearly as much influence in this year's presidential race. The reasons, they say, are varied:
* Christian influence in politics historically has gone up and down since the early 1800s; this is another movement whose time may be up for now.
* The Bush administration hurt the evangelical cause - with the war in Iraq, its response to Hurricane Katrina and its alleged human rights violations at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention center.
* Two of the movement's most important figures, D. James Kennedy and Jerry Falwell, are dead.
The biggest reason of all, though, may be the changing face of evangelicals themselves, experts say.
For more from the Gazette, click here.
June 30, 2008
2:10 a.m.
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p_myers661 writes:
Gee, no mention of McCain and his lack of support from most conservative or religious groups. Nice try at marginalizing a group, but don't just look at the presidential race. I'd think a large number of local offices as well as statehouse and congressional votes would be more indicative.
There will most likely be a large number of evangelicals who don't cast votes in the presidential election. That only means that the strength of this group will be determined and they stand in a no-lose situation. If McCain wins, they will be considered a nice addition and their reason for the vote will be the Supreme Court and the four ultra lib justices who wanted to rewrite the second amendment. If McCain loses, then dozens of groups will point to the loss in four years and claim that they sat out and that's why he lost. A good bet is that a real conservative will be nominated then. And GW ain't conservative.
There have always been splinter groups attempting to declare that there should be a more worldly faith. I doubt that a congregation of 70 people represents a significant change.
Doesn't surprise me that some are tired of the struggles politically. Not something we really want to do, but necessary for our own reasons just as our opposites have their own reasons.
Look at it this way:
Both sides want to have the government verify their views of right and wrong. Politics is an inefficient and difficult way to do this but an infinite improvement over a donnybrook. We need to wait for this election to take place before anyone can say why things happened as they did or will. (Hard verb tense selection there.)
Expect the losing side to blame the parts of their party that were reluctant and then start begging them to come back.
That's not prophecy, it's politics.
June 30, 2008
3:01 a.m.
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roger44 writes:
Good comment. Add to that, the fact that the number of non believers has gone up, recent survey of college students put them at 19%. And when you have guys like Kenneth Copeland saying God wanted him to have that $20 million jet to fly around, and refuses to show his financial records of where those 8 companies he owns came from, I think his God is printed by the US treasury. Recent statement heard: not all christian people are stupid, but all stupid people are Christians.
June 30, 2008
3:34 a.m.
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Kilroy writes:
I've never understood Dr. Dobson's authority in the movement. He's a child psychologist, not a pastor or Bible authority.
June 30, 2008
4:01 a.m.
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happymike44 writes:
First of all these people were the ones who put up all the money they could to control our country.
This is by pushing through bills and laws that suit only their needs with no regards to all the people's needs.
Then complain they can not roll back our society to the Eisenhower years.
they need to get it right with god by showing more of loving christian nature.
the first thing is to accept all people for who they are.
This means Gay or Lesbian black or white or purple.
Also they need to stop looking down their collective noses at the rest of us.
I seem to remember a few ministers being caught with the zipper in the off position.
Buying the sins of the worlds right off the streets of this country.
So let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
That means putting away your better then everyone attitudes.
True christians don't stand up yelling look at me I am a christian and look how good I am.
To be a true christian means to accept everyone for whom they are.
Also to be humble in your person and to never be a cheat of the people's money or emotions.
When a minister says god wants you to be prosperous he means I need a new Caddy or Mercedes.
So understand that these megachurches are only in it for the money.
Don't believe the hype from these snake oil salesmen.
A liar is a liar is a liar.
June 30, 2008
4:57 a.m.
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p_myers661 writes:
Want to know the origin of "snake oil."
Early Christians followed the admonition to anoint each other with oil and lay on hands and pray. This was a common practice and generally accepted. The Catholic Church, the only Christian Church in the Middle Ages, has a tradition of blessing the oils used in the sacraments on the Thursday before Easter, Chrism Mass it's called.
The people were encouraged to bring oil, remember that it would be lanolin or other animal fat for most people, and have it blessed as well. Worked for centuries until some people started bringing large amounts of oil and then portioning and selling it. (The Simony Laws prevent the selling of any blessed object as the blessing is voided by the sale.) The general public found this much more convenient than trundling their own oil to church. Some of these sellers also knew of olive oil and used it as it has no rank smell and lasts much longer. Admonitions from the Church that such oil was not blessed but ordinary were misunderstood or ignored. Sermons and proclamations declared such sales to be blasphemous and a product of Satan. Satan is referred to as the snake and thus snake oil was simply understood and explained and the market was crushed. So snake oil is a very good term here. It fits. Many have exchanged their faith for gold or power or both. I'm glad I'm not them. For the rest of us, the political arena is the place where we must be to stand up for morality. Should there be laws restricting gay actions or love. Nope. That is two adults and they have to make their own choices. Abortion involves a third party. General immorality usually begins or ends with actions damaging to others including innocent children. We need to state our positions and we need to have politicians held up to answer the questions so all know their positions. If they are honest, eternal hope ya know, both sides can make a decision. If they are normal politicians they must be confronted with consequences. The best consequence is the loss of political office. We will never agree on who is the right choice but, perhaps, we can occasionally agree on who is the wrong choice.
June 30, 2008
6:03 a.m.
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Oh_Wise_One writes:
roger44- "but all stupid people are Christians" So you are a Christian or did you just break your own thesis? You, are a moron.
June 30, 2008
6:09 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
Yes, how can one forget stories like the Jahovah's Witnesses Beth Sarim Mansion, Oral Roberts death or a million dollars, Swaggert, Haggard, priests molesting children and running naked in our streets? Yes folks, the one thing they may have right is the end is near. I bow my knee to God, not the institutions of man, they are all corrupted to some degree, some worse than others. Right the Lord's laws on your heart so you are able to recognize the wolves who come in sheeps clothing to decieve the elect of the Lord's servants. Not one church of the seven in Revelations was totally rightious in God's judgements; two thousand years later, they are worse. America needs to turn back to God, but organized religions are not the answer. I have always been a catholic, I watch today as the priests molest children and lust for thier own gender. I see the false prophesies of the Jahovah's Witness, the churches that write thier own bibles like the Book of Mormon. Best you place your trust in God, not man and his institutions. Seems the bigger the church, the bigger the crimes against God and His people. Who are God's people? They walk as the least amongst you, forever humble, forever vigilant. One church in Revelations God found lukewarm, today all would be spit out. I love how each denomination claims to be the true faith, and they attack one another on thier man made doctorines. Better you bow your knee to God and ask for wisdom that you not get caught in the snares of organized religion. Place your faith in God, not churches. I still go to church once a week; there are others who like myself overlook the hypocracy and see things we know are not right before God. We have politicians who sit in church and profess faith in God, yet in thier professional life embrace every abomonation before God. You don't need a church full of people to serve God, unless you feel credentialized in numbers. I don't know Dobson, can't pass judgement. I have met Mr. Chaput, he is a good man; I watched him greet the homeless by name, as well as walk into the mansions of the rich. Even this good man must struggle with the most terrible issues created by the priests in his church. I am glad he stands and fights. Enough said, it's my opinion and I am not all that educated to know much about religion. I will just keep praying because humanity is truly falling down upon itself.
June 30, 2008
6:55 a.m.
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HolierThanThou writes:
Jesus made his most powerful political statement when he washed the feet of his disciples. To be a true leader, you must serve the people.
A really convincing anti-Christ repeats everything that Jesus said with one very important difference: the anti-Christ is a hypocrite. This is a person who makes a pretense of service to get the people to serve him. Modern mythology hews to the idea that there are only a few anti-Christs that will pop up from time to time. Reality begs us to observe that anti-Christs arrive in legions.
Most of the big modern churches are nothing more than businesses. If they were truly honest they'd be pushing for a law to force themselves to pay taxes like every other business. So, they're even less honest than a typical corporation that abuses its work force, fleeces the American public, and finances the worst kind of political scum that you can find on planet Earth.
Having read the Bible, its history, and much of its source literature, I'm still amazed that most people who proclaim faith in Jesus (and presumably his teachings) empower tyrants whose every deed contradicts something that Jesus taught.
I see hatred and intolerance from "Christians" yet Jesus taught us to love and serve each other.
The ignorance of evangelical Christians is like an impenetrable black ball. This article is good news. A crack has appeared in the surface of their ignorance and some light is starting to shine through.
June 30, 2008
6:57 a.m.
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Charles_B writes:
I guess they realized that the GOP only gave them lip-service in election cycles and promptly abandoned them and their issues immediately after.
How did it take so long I wonder?
June 30, 2008
7:16 a.m.
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GJFlash writes:
Nice try at self-delusion, MSM.
I know that the liberal ignorami amongst us would like to believe that America no longer has any sort of morality, it makes their godless puppets more electable.
Unfortunately for them, that is not the reality. Christians are politically active, have been since the inception of this nation, and are likely to be for centuries to come. Sorry, libtards.
"Christian influence in politics historically has gone up and down since the early 1800s; this is another movement whose time may be up for now.
* The Bush administration hurt the evangelical cause - with the war in Iraq, its response to Hurricane Katrina..."
Christianity is a movement whose time may be up? Christians are mad at Republicans because of Iraq and Katrina? REALLY? These are some of the most idiotic conclusions I've ever seen. Just exactly who are these "scholars"? Is Ward Churchill one of them?
June 30, 2008
7:19 a.m.
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gary writes:
None of the above have any idea how people will vote!
Let's see...the Hispanics vote will count big time, but the Christian vote will be meaningless...Right??
All of you will just have to wait and see who votes for whom!!
Nuff Said!
June 30, 2008
7:38 a.m.
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Charles_B writes:
GJFlash wrote:
"know that the liberal ignorami amongst us would like to believe that America no longer has any sort of morality, it makes their godless puppets more electable."
You're kind of right--if unintentionally--liberals believe that torture, waging unnecessary war and shredding the fourth amendment for instance, are a few examples of things that are immoral that America has done. Bu your problem is that you mistake "no morals" for "different morals".
Some enlightened people don't think "morality" is dependent on what some people wrote in a book 2,000 years ago, but rather create their personal moral code by *actually thinking about things* and seeking knowledge and wisdom from *gasp* books besides the bible.
And please, never-mind the fact that most "liberals" are Christians.
What a hack you are.
June 30, 2008
7:57 a.m.
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LOUIE writes:
Charles_B, there is a grain of truth in what you say, I love books, especially history. It opens the mind, creates debate, and sometimes enlighten. I learned to read in America's institutions, quiting school in the 8th grade. One book was always available, the Bible. See, when they took everything from us, I could always ask for a Bible, and they brought one to my cell as a kid. If it weren't for that book, I'd be more illiterate than I am today. Many christians don't read other writtings like Gurdjief, or other controversial writters; I loved reading anything that was available, but I learned to read from a Bible behind walls. It was the one book that they never denied me. Knowledge is a great asset, I wish I had time to read more books. My current library is full of books of antiquity; my how history gets rewritten by current scholars. Charles_B, a lot of people, not just christians, have tunnel vision to accompany thier sheepskins acknowledging thier higher education. Reading opens the mind, people should read outside thier main intrests in order to broaden thier thoughts.
June 30, 2008
8:03 a.m.
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JohnSWren writes:
What do you think of McCain's vist to Billy Graham? Tell us what you think about this or any thing else at our next Denver Speakers Corner, next Sunday (July 6), 4 p.m., at Civic Center North Pavilion, on Colfax right across the street from the Denver Newspaper Agency. More info (including videos of our first meetings) and optional RSVP at http://cocacop.meetup.com/2
June 30, 2008
8:13 a.m.
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rjnova writes:
It is a nice try to discount the evangelical Christians but you are whistling past the grave yard. While I am not one of them I find them dedicated to their cause and will be there to vote on election day.
That is more than you can say for college students, welfare recipients and others as well.
June 30, 2008
8:38 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
(sigh)
Another helping of red meat for the anti-Christian crowd.
Funny thing is; they say Christians are the "mindless zombies following dogma" - but the reality is 99% of the anti-Christian posts here will all say the same thing.
Just vote for who you want and we'll see how it all plays out.
June 30, 2008
8:41 a.m.
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LuvAmerica writes:
Maybe people are starting to tire of the evangelical’s wasting everyone’s time with their obsession over a few irrelevant wedge issues while the country struggles with dozens of real ones.
June 30, 2008
8:41 a.m.
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davies writes:
"...all stupid people are Christians"
Nice to see someone openly profess their bigotry, instead of tap-dancing around it. Good luck to you and your vast intellect, roger44.
June 30, 2008
8:43 a.m.
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steel writes:
happymike"...pushing through bills and laws that suit only their needs with no regards to all the people's needs."
Sounds like obama...
June 30, 2008
9:02 a.m.
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M2 writes:
Cults are evil and close minded.
June 30, 2008
9:45 a.m.
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T1anda writes:
It will be interesting to see how far Obama can get WITHOUT the Evangelical vote! It will be really interesting to see how far he get's without the bitter, "blue collar" gun toten, bible thumpin, vote also! Oh, and if he loses in November the word racist will be written in big red letters across the maps of the liberal media for months!
If Obama wins get ready to hear the word "racist" for at least 4 years. It is one of his most useful tools!!!
June 30, 2008
9:56 a.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
GJFlash: "I know that the liberal ignorami amongst us would like to believe that America no longer has any sort of morality, it makes their godless puppets more electable."
"Sorry, libtards".
Veeeeerrrry Christian of you, GJ. Liberal ideals are far more Christian than what the Republican party gives us. And much more Christian than hate-speech like this. GWB is much more "godless" than true liberals. Or are we supposed to believe that God told him to kill 100's of thousands of people in Iraq and sit idly by while 1000's of people die in New Orleans? GWB is the real godless puppet and McSame will be no better.
June 30, 2008
9:57 a.m.
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jay writes:
i think religion does a lot of good for a lot of people by providing them a needed framework within which to live. it also does a lot of bad things.
i could care less what you do on your own time with your own money to your own children.
just stay out of our schools, labs and public coffers.
if you want to believe that stem cell research is wrong...go nuts...but don't be part of the problem by working to deny anyone else that ground breaking treatment by working to restrict research.
if you want to discriminate against homosexuality...be my guest...the world will always have bigots...but don't try to deny equality for another american and expect my respect.
if you want to believe in creationism and indoctrinate your kids with that belief...have at it...there is no law against the fostering of willful ignorance...but don't try to force those superstitious beliefs upon my children.
if you want to use taxpayer funds to further causes based on beliefs in the supernatural...well...no...i'd prefer you don't do that. if you want to paint yourself with oil and chant at a mannequin hanging from a cross...knock yourself out...but don't ask me to pay for it or fund your crusades.
we've tried the fundamentalist/neocon experiment and it was a complete failure on several fronts.
let's hope the country has learned its lesson.
June 30, 2008
10:01 a.m.
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Steph writes:
I see the fake Christians are out again calling people names. People like YOU are the reason your political clout is diminishing. We NEVER hear from the REAL Christians; just the one's who would rather argue with anonymous people on the internet. Why aren't you out there giving money and time to homeless people and other poor folks?
Do you really think Jesus would be debating people on the internet?
The only good thing that came out of the last 7.5 years is to see the Christian Right put there own idiot in the White House and ultimately causing more damage to the Christians than any good. Now we know that Pro-Life Christians support illegal wars, torture, the fight against civil rights and the death of 4000+ soldiers. We have heard your loud voices over the last 7.5 years and it's proven how damaging mixing Religion with Politics can be.
You all deserve what you get.
June 30, 2008
10:05 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
jay writes: "we've tried the fundamentalist/neocon experiment and it was a complete failure on several fronts."
It that why the rest of the World is trying to get here at all costs?
June 30, 2008
10:14 a.m.
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Charles_B writes:
Let me re-write PajamaSoiler to illustrate his stupidity:
He wrote:
"Charles_B: History has brought us some interesting characters who lived by their own "personal moral code". Caligula, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, et.al.. You're in some interesting company."
I could write:
"PajamaPultizer: History has brought us some interesting characters who claimed to be Christians. Cyril of Alexandria, Pope Inoccent III , Hitler, Reinhard Heydrich, Irenaeus,et.al.. You're in some interesting company."
See how easy it is to play the guilt by association game? I guess that explains why stupid people tend to play it.
June 30, 2008
10:17 a.m.
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Steph writes:
Your proof for why the rest of the world is wanting to move here? This is and will always be a great country. That's why people want to move here.
June 30, 2008
10:18 a.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Cowboy63: "It that why the rest of the World is trying to get here at all costs?"
I can only guess that you meant "Is", and not "It". But I have news for you, "the rest of the world" is NOT clamoring to get here at all costs. There are plenty of people who object to the American way of life and would prefer that America left them alone and stopped trying to force their commercialism/capitalism upon them. Some people from nearby poor countries are coming here for a better opportunity, but certainly not "the rest of the world".
June 30, 2008
10:29 a.m.
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jay writes:
cowboy, i think america, despite her blemishes, is still an amazing country. there is no denying, however, that the last 8 years have been like a bad marriage. she's seen her leaders put their own interests above those of her people. she's seen her soldiers needlessly sent to their deaths in the name of greed and incompetence. she's seen her treasures squandered by those charged with protecting them.
we've tried the neocon shortcut through fundie forest and you know what? america got mugged. time to help her to her feet and get her on the right track again.
fortunately, i'm not the only one who wants to give her a hand.
http://www.pollingreport.com/right.htm
June 30, 2008
10:34 a.m.
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Big_D writes:
Even with a majority and the President the GOP did nothing to end abortion and left the right wingers holding a bag with the credit for a war of aggression. Who would Jesus torture? They sold their souls to the GOP and the GOP used them to make money, torture, and wage war. This is exactly why religion cheapens its self by getting into politics and personalities instead of sticking to just issues.
June 30, 2008
10:38 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
YourNeilness writes: "But I have news for you, "the rest of the world" is NOT clamoring to get here at all costs."
More people try to get into the US (both legally and illegally) than every other country in the World COMBINED.
Why is that?
(Didn't they get they memo that Bush and his conservative-Christian army have turned this country into a backward, theocratic, Nazi-state?)
June 30, 2008
10:40 a.m.
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Steph writes:
You're absolutely right Big_D. I guess the souls of the religious right are cheap since they sold them in 2004 for more of the same BS.
June 30, 2008
10:47 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
Steph writes: "Why aren't you out there giving money and time to homeless people and other poor folks?"
Pop Quiz: Who donates more time and money to the homeless than any other group?
Hint: Every night, long lines of homeless are being cared for by the Denver Rescue Mission, Samaritan House and a dozen other (gasp) Christian groups in this town.
Can someone tell me where the local athiest shelters are?
June 30, 2008
10:54 a.m.
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BJG writes:
Loss of influence? That's cause they help elect the Anti-Christ and his minions into office twice.
Cowboy63 needs to realize that many people give to the homeless shelters, not just christians.
June 30, 2008
11:03 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
BJG writes: "Cowboy63 needs to realize that many people give to the homeless shelters, not just christians."
Why would an athiest give money to a (gasp) Christian homeless shelter if they believed that their donations were immediatety shipped off to the Pope or some other evil fundamentalists?
June 30, 2008
11:05 a.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Cowboy63: "More people try to get into the US (both legally and illegally) than every other country in the World COMBINED."
I'd like to see your source for this information, or are you just making up fake stats to support your opinion? It doesn't matter, actually, because it doesn't change the fact that your original statement was wrong. "The rest of the world" are not all trying to get here. I would agree that lots of people are trying to get here, but not everyone wants to be American. There are plenty of people who are happy with who and where they are, thank you. Your statement was quite arrogant, which is one quality common in Americans that many other people dislike.
June 30, 2008
11:11 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
PajamaPulitzer - lol! Truer words never were spoken!
June 30, 2008
11:12 a.m.
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freedomfighter1 writes:
Cowboy
Athiest do not have shelters. By no means am I arguing that fact, but understand some of us know/believe that the welfare system and its counter parts only work bread oppression and other harmful effects to our society. This is at least my view and it supports my idea that through assistance and anti-abortion campaigns the weak become larger numbers and weaker. I am not saying that we shouldn't assist someone who is going through hard times, but lets face it those shelters and the majority of the welfare clients are lifelong clients who only multiply at a faster rate than any sucessful and independent adults. Also, where did you get the information stating that people from all over the world want to come here? just curious. I've lived in Europe for awhile and I don't think I met 1 person that said they wanted to move here.
June 30, 2008
11:12 a.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Pajama,
LMAO! That was a good one! Typical selfish/capitalist, every-man for-himself, Republican attitude, but funny! Thanks for the laugh!
June 30, 2008
11:17 a.m.
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jay writes:
cowboy...talking points aside, can you really make the case that the last 8 years of fundie/neocon experimentation have taken the country down a good path?
http://www.pollingreport.com/right.htm
June 30, 2008
11:27 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
freedomfighter1 writes: "Where did you get the information stating that people from all over the world want to come here?"
Most people are happy where they are at, but when they do want to emigrate; the US is usually the top destination on the wish list.
One of many sites with emmigration numbers: www.migrationinformation.org/datahub/countrydata/data.cfm
June 30, 2008
11:36 a.m.
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jay writes:
"most Democrat policies harm this land and they also know we need a grown-up to keep a watchful eye on the congress."
this is an interesting opinion...but the lastest scientific polling clearly proves that the majority of americans prefer dem policy stances on nearly every single issue before the country today, pj.
it would seem that you're mistaken.
cowboy, the fact that lots of folks immigrate to the us has exactly NOTHING to offer in the way of a credible or quality rebuttal to my position that "we've tried the fundamentalist/neocon experiment and it was a complete failure on several fronts." I'd love to hear some other reasons why you think that's not the case....but global immigration isn't going to cut it.
June 30, 2008
11:36 a.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Pajama,
Your comment doesn’t refute anything I’ve said. If you’re going to debate me, at least represent my position correctly. You’re arguing against things that I never said. Go back and check it. I didn’t say anything about people, especially Muslims, hating Americans. And I didn’t say Muslims as well as many other people don’t want to immigrate to America. I DID say “I would agree that lots of people are trying to get here, but not everyone wants to be American.” And I DID say “There are plenty of people who are happy with who and where they are”. But I did NOT point out that people hate America and I did NOT deny the millions of legal and illegal Mexicans in America.
And, no, I don’t hate America or Americans, but I DO hate what the Republican Neo-Cons are doing in the name of Americans.
June 30, 2008
11:41 a.m.
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Steph writes:
Steph writes: "Why aren't you out there giving money and time to homeless people and other poor folks?"
"Pop Quiz: Who donates more time and money to the homeless than any other group?
Hint: Every night, long lines of homeless are being cared for by the Denver Rescue Mission, Samaritan House and a dozen other (gasp) Christian groups in this town.
Can someone tell me where the local athiest shelters are?"
And how much of these homeless people have to be preached at while they are receiving aid? Where did Jesus say that he'd give help but only if they listened to him first?
I don't know of any atheist shelters but why should we have any? We don't claim to be following Jesus's path. You are.
Also, do you actually think only Christians have given money to people on the side of the road with cardboard signs?
June 30, 2008
11:46 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
jay writes: "the fact that lots of folks immigrate to the us has exactly NOTHING to offer in the way of a credible or quality rebuttal to my position that "we've tried the fundamentalist/neocon experiment and it was a complete failure on several fronts."
If the US, due to the fundamentalist/neocon experiment, is such a complete failure? Why do people (by the millions) still want to get here?
People vote with their feet.
June 30, 2008
11:47 a.m.
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jay writes:
"If the US, due to the fundamentalist/neocon experiment, is such a complete failure? Why do people (by the millions) still want to get here?"
who knows...it has NOTHING to do with the neocon/fundie experiment being a failure though, cowboy.
are you still confused about that?
June 30, 2008
11:51 a.m.
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davies writes:
T1anda: "If Obama wins get ready to hear the word "racist" for at least 4 years. It is one of his most useful tools!!!"
I think Obama is too liberal and inexperienced to be president, but I don't think the above is truthful or fair at all.
Cowboy63: "Can someone tell me where the local athiest shelters (for the homeless) are?"
Hah - good point! So many liberals ooze with compassion, as long as they can expect "the government" to take care of all the problems. The book "Who Really Cares" thoroughly documents the fact that conservatives give more out of their pockets to charities, both religious AND secular, than do liberals in the USA. More in dollars and more in percentage of income.
So many liberals scold conservatives for a lack of compassion; yet they roll up the car windows and hit the gas when they see a homeless person. Then they congratulate themselves for being such a compassionate person by voting Democrat. Big frickin' deal, phonies.
June 30, 2008
11:58 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
Steph writes: "And how much of these homeless people have to be preached at while they are receiving aid?"
Where did you get this notion that "homeless people HAVE to be preached at"?
A. It's a free country. If you don't like how they run their shelters - then go somewhere else.
B. My sister worked at Denver Rescue Mission for over a year and never gave a single sermon. They are too busy working!
C. Have you ever thought that it may be possible for someone to actually ask for a little preaching and prayer?
June 30, 2008
12:03 p.m.
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Jimminy writes:
Actually,that which is sneeringly called a "neocon/fundie experiment",although rather a modest experiment,has been fairly successful.We now see the Leftists ramping up the propaganda and,most telling of all,choosing to nominate the candidate less fit to serve,less likely to win,and dumping the one better able to serve,more able to win.Thanks,gentlefolk.Seriously.
June 30, 2008
12:05 p.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
jay writes: "cowboy...talking points aside, can you really make the case that the last 8 years of fundie/neocon experimentation have taken the country down a good path?"
FREEDOM: no other country has more of it. I call that a good path.
June 30, 2008
12:08 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Pajama,
You keep attributing opinions to me that I’ve never espoused. I can’t debate you if you refuse to debate me based on what I said. I never implied “that America is not the most attractive Nation on earth to immigrants”. I simply pointed out the arrogance of Cowboy’s original statement that “the rest of the world all wants to come here” and the fact that it’s not true. There are plenty of people in the world who are happy with who and where they are, and there are many who object to Americans’ effort to push their commercialism/capitalism upon them.
I don’t know why I bother to pick up a debate with you anyway. I’ve read a lot of your posts here and on other threads and they rarely make any sense, stay on point, or effectively debate a point. What a waste of time.
June 30, 2008
12:26 p.m.
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jay writes:
cowboy, so far as evidence that your position (that the neocon/fundie experiment hasn't been a failure) is correct, you've given global emmigration numbers and "FREEDOM".
pj, i still would like to hear your opinion on why you feel america is going to elect a republican president considering the majority of americans favor the dems' policy stances on nearly every single issue...and why you feel that "most Democrat policies harm this land"...
June 30, 2008
12:28 p.m.
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voicefromuphigh writes:
So their clout is waning....if only their fertility rates would follow suit.
June 30, 2008
12:46 p.m.
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Charles_B writes:
PajamaPeabody asked:
"Charles_B: Can you tell what is the definition of the term "Christian"?"
Anyone professing belief in Jesus as Christ.
Anything else you need to know?
June 30, 2008
12:50 p.m.
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Big_D writes:
I don't know of any atheist homeless shelters but I do know a Church that doesn't play politics and tell people how to vote and doesn't need high finance. I doubt cowpoke and PJ know a church like this.
June 30, 2008
12:52 p.m.
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Beverley writes:
Good. Does this mean that we can have our party back now?
June 30, 2008
12:55 p.m.
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GK writes:
"Every night, long lines of homeless are being cared for by the Denver Rescue Mission, Samaritan House and a dozen other (gasp) Christian groups in this town."
So that means they're all Republicans??
June 30, 2008
12:56 p.m.
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me2 writes:
I love watching reading comprehension in action. the article did not say Christianity is waning, just the influence of fundamentalism. Like a drug, fundamentalism needs constant reinforcement to keep the high. People get tired and go back to normal living. Except for that man who protests homosexuality at the funerals of our troops. That is a man with glow-in-the-dark obsessive/compulsive disorder.
Bush did not produce the anti abortion anti gay anti progressive America his evangelical friends expected.
Fundamentalism is a movement, a fad, it comes and goes in America like the rising and falling of our hemlines.
I think Goddess took Kennedy and Falwell home because She got fed up with them.
June 30, 2008
1:11 p.m.
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davies writes:
GK: The point is that there are many Christians who are quietly practicing their faith, doing good works, and living better lives because of that faith. The majority are not hard-core, fire-and-brimstone, condemnational hypocrites and/or bigots, like some of the posters on this thread may characterize them.
June 30, 2008
1:21 p.m.
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DenverDan writes:
Dobson and Haggard for the GOP need I say more..
June 30, 2008
1:28 p.m.
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davies writes:
DenverDan, you never need to say more, and yet you keep on talking anyway...
June 30, 2008
1:58 p.m.
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jay writes:
pj, i think your argument is that not all christians are ignorant bigots...was that your point? because you can't just claim that the pope isn't a christian just because he doesn't quite conform to YOUR idea of what christianity is...right?
i could try to say that not all democrats are democrats....say....like alec baldwin....but that wouldn't be intellectually honest, would it?
June 30, 2008
2:11 p.m.
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jay writes:
"It's what Christianity actually means"
nope...it's what YOU think christianity actually means.
"you seem to be in the dark as to what a Christian actually is, and since you spend much of your time here bashing Christians."
not at all. i'm well versed in christianity. i took several comparative politics classes in college.
furthermore, i don't "bash christians". i may happen to be intolerant of bigots and those who foster willful ignorance...and would make the case that some of them being christians is just a coincidence...unless they prove otherwise by using THEIR idea of what "christianity actuall means" to discriminate against others or push for their brand of ignorance in our school system, etc.
again...pj...being intolerant of bigotry does not make one a bigot.
i thought you had that concept down the last time we discussed it. sounds like you're still a little confused. shall we go over it again?
June 30, 2008
2:21 p.m.
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UglyDuck writes:
I intended to refrain from commenting until reading something Jay said. “i could care less what you do on your own time with your own money to your own children. just stay out of our schools, labs and public coffers.” Excuse me? The last time I checked, nobody in the entire US is given a choice how his/her tax dollars can be spent. I am forced to cough up hundreds of property tax dollars every year that go toward ‘your’ failing educational system. The mindless drivel, the misspelled words and absolutely abominable communication skills displayed in these blogs pay tribute to the fact that ‘your’ educational system is a dismal failure. Until I’m given a choice where/how my tax dollars are spent, ‘your’ schools are also my schools. Furthermore, as long as I’m paying for these schools, I’m entitled to say what should or should not be taught regardless of whether you agree with me or not! You disapprove of “creationism” and refer to it as indoctrination but I’m sure you have no problem with other kids being subjected to the religion of Darwinism and the indoctrination of secular humanism. And I thought (as I have stated so many times) only Christians are hypocrites. So, here’s a deal for you, Jay. How about you (and others like you) agree to allow every tax paying citizen the right to use his/her school-related tax dollars as we choose? If you do that, you’ll witness a mass exodus from ‘your’ failing public system and you can then have it all to yourself. Fair enough?
As for your other caustic comments let me state that God grants us two choices and gives each of us the free will to decide the path we want to take. You obviously have chosen eternal damnation. If hell is what you want, hell is what you’ll get and, in keeping with your philosophy, no one is standing in your way. I can’t help but think of what Jesus said as he was dying on the cross (you know, the mannequin?), “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” I honestly pity you.
June 30, 2008
2:30 p.m.
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jay writes:
no ugly duck, you're wrong that you don't have an opportunity to change how "our" education system works. there are many opportunities to get involved both charitably and politically.
what you don't have the right to do, however, is things like trying to attempt to bring supertitious beliefs into science class.
sorry if that works you up, but that is way it is in america, land of the free. if you want to use public funds for fundamentalist indocrination, try iran. "our" country doesn't go for that kind of taliban crap.
i appreciate your pity in regards to spending eternity with the dirt goblin...i think i'll take my chances that the sky daddy is nothing more than an imaginary friend (or punisher) for adults and continue to live my life unhindered by such constructs.
by saying that i'm not attacking your right to feel the way you do. as i said before, i could care less what you do on your own time with your own money to your own children. just stay out of our schools, labs and public coffers.
June 30, 2008
2:33 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Our education system is a failure, so we should improve it by teaching a scientifically unsupportable fantasy about an invisible spirit in the sky magically creating everything on the planet in one week's time. Choose to believe what you want, but I think our children will be better served being taught the theory that is supported by scientific facts and not fantasy. Oh, and Darwinism is not a religion, it's science. There is no faith or imaginary spirit involved.
June 30, 2008
2:56 p.m.
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UglyDuck writes:
"what you don't have the right to do, however, is things like trying to attempt to bring supertitious beliefs into science class." As long as I'm forced to pay taxes for public education, I have EVERY right that you're entitled and that includes having a say in what should or should not be taught. If that bothers you, be a proponent for school choice. In one breath you state this is the land of the free and before you even exhale, you claim to have more rights that I do. You want my tax dollars but then tell me my ideas and opinions aren't welcome in 'your' schools. What a hypocrite!
June 30, 2008
3:02 p.m.
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UglyDuck writes:
YourNeilness:
You started off correctly by referring to Darwinism as a theory but then you got lost when you asserted it was based on "scientific facts" and "There is no faith...involved". Really? Are you enjoying the Kool Aid?
June 30, 2008
3:03 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Go ahead and lobby for teaching creationism in school, just not in science class. It's not science. Maybe they can have a comparitive religions class, or a fantasy class.
June 30, 2008
3:06 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Kool Aid? Have you ever heard of scientific method? It's pretty solid. That's a pretty ironic thing for you to say to me, coming from a person who has no choice but to drink the Kool Aid in order to maintain belief in creationism. Considering there's no scientific evidence to support such a notion.
June 30, 2008
3:06 p.m.
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JimmyTheSaint writes:
Thank God!
June 30, 2008
3:09 p.m.
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jay writes:
"As long as I'm forced to pay taxes for public education, I have EVERY right that you're entitled and that includes having a say in what should or should not be taught."
i never said your opinions aren't welcome. i suggest you go down to your next school board meeting and let your opinion on curriculum be known, ugly duck. i would hope that, considering your feelings on the subject, you would already have taken an opportunity to do so. that still doesn't mean that we're going to allow prayer in public school. it doesn't mean that we're going to allow religion in science class.
that said, i'm all for school choice. if you find that you simply can't religiously indoctrinate your own kids enough outside of school hours, you may choose to keep them home. i even support giving you a tax break on your own personal income taxes for the amount slated to be allocated for your own child's personal education.
June 30, 2008
3:10 p.m.
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glowrock writes:
UglyDuck, if you honestly believe that Evolution is religion, and that people who believe in most if not all of the scientific concepts of evolution are religious nuts, then I simply cannot talk any sense to you. Creationism is based upon faith and religion, Evolution is based upon science and testing. I'll take science and testing over faith and religion any day of the week, thank you.
Please stop thinking that Creationism = SCIENCE. Creationism = FAITH = RELIGION!
Is every facet of evolutionary theory proven 100 percent? Of course not. However, the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence backs up evolutionary theory rather than creationism. Sorry, bud...
June 30, 2008
3:11 p.m.
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UglyDuck writes:
Isn’t it interesting how the “enlightened progressives” are all about tolerance and open mindedness until they encounter something that doesn’t meet their approval. The topic of creationism versus evolution is a good example. Most Christians I know would object less about the teaching of evolution if creationism were also taught. And, why not? After all, if getting a broad education is truly the goal, why is there such fear, such reluctance (especially on the part of those claiming to be so tolerant and open minded) to hear more than one side of the argument?
June 30, 2008
3:12 p.m.
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jay writes:
pj...why do you believe that there must be some sort of "god" involved? why would i make myself a "god"? can't i just think myself a human and leave the supernatural out of it?
June 30, 2008
3:19 p.m.
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jay writes:
"Most Christians I know would object less about the teaching of evolution if creationism were also taught."
but again...why do you feel the right to push your beliefs in the supernatural upon the rest of the kids in science class?
how do we not have the right to be free from your religion?
i don't care if you believe that purple bunnies deliver magic "eggs" on the day that a hippie supposedly came back from the dead...but don't ask for me to pay you to teach that crap to my kids...
June 30, 2008
3:24 p.m.
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UglyDuck writes:
glowrock:
I never said "Creationism = Science". Furthermore, I never said evolution was not science. What I did say was that evolution is a THEORY and NOT fact (as some would believe) and, yes, I believe it takes as much (if not more) faith to believe in the concept of evolution than it does to believe in a a loving creator of the universe. I have several objections to the way in which evolution is taught in schools. By the way, I am an electrical engineer (MSEE) so I'm no stranger to science or to Darwin's theory. I object to the fact that evolution is used to explain the beginning of life while at the same time attempting to explain away the existence of God. Also, given that evolution is only a theory, I object to the fact that other possibilities (i.e., creationism) are not given equal time.
June 30, 2008
3:24 p.m.
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glowrock writes:
Creationism should be taught in CHURCH, or perhaps in a comparative religion course. It should NOT be taught in SCIENCE class!
It's a completely disingenuous argument to say that evolutionists are afraid of creationism being taught in school. It has nothing to do with being afraid or concerned, it has to do with teaching religion and faith in a science classroom!
June 30, 2008
3:28 p.m.
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glowrock writes:
UglyDuck, do you even know the scientific definition of a theory? A scientific theory is a combination of scientific laws, ie: Law of Gravity. It's not "just a theory" as many creationists like to point out.
Another thing, evolution does NOT explain the beginning of the universe. It explains how life expanded from single-celled organisms several billion years ago to today's plethora of life forms. It doesn't explain the "big bang", it doesn't explain why life is here, it simply, again, is the best explanation as to how life has gone from very simply to very complex over the eons.
I swear, if I hear one more freaking person talk about it only being a theory, I'm going to explode! Learn what a scientific theory is, and then get back to me.
June 30, 2008
3:30 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Who's intollerant? Check out my 3:03pm post. I tell you to go ahead and teach comparative religions. And I suggest you lobby the school to do so. Just don't do it in science class. It's not science.
June 30, 2008
3:32 p.m.
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jjez writes:
It kills me when people argue over creation vs evolution. By definition, the "Theory of Evolution" (which was what it was called when I was in school) HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN. A theory is a theory. Somebodies (Darwin's) IDEA of how it works. I don't dispute that evolution occurs, but I find it hard to believe that I have evolved from an ameoba to a fish to a monkey to a human, no matter how many millenia it may have taken. If my ancestors evolved, how come there are still monkeys? Why didn't their ancestors evolve? It's revisionist history at it's worst. Looking at fossil records and saying that because this particular claw looks the same as the claw from a living being, that that living being must have evolved from whatever creature bore that claw. Sounds like bologna to me! No one was around to write about dinosaurs, so all we have are bones. Where as the early Christians were there and witnessed the life of Jesus and wrote about it. Yes, there are contradictions in the Bible, after all, it has been edited and translated by mere humans, but at least there is "modern" (ie written) proof that He existed. Those of you who choose to deny that there is a God are able to do that because you were given free will. Be thankful for that at least. And stop trying to force those of us who DO believe to hide in a closet and not say what we believe just because you don't want to be offended by it. Believe or don't believe, that is your choice, but don't look down on those of us who have chosen to believe. Don't call us idiots just because we made that choice. There are brilliant scientists who are believers. Leaders in their fields. Science and belief are not mutually exclusive! And yes, there have been attrocities committed, and are still being committed, by those who profess a belief in God. Doesn't mean He condones it. Doesn't mean He doesn't exist just because there is evil in the world.
June 30, 2008
3:34 p.m.
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glowrock writes:
I'm sorry, but until the religious right learns the difference between the commonly-used definition of a theory and the scientific definition of the word theory, I can't discuss this any further. A scientific theory is a set of scientific laws. It's not just someone's guess as to how something has occurred.
Enough is enough! Learn what the words mean before attempting to discredit them!
June 30, 2008
3:35 p.m.
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UglyDuck writes:
"but again...why do you feel the right to push your beliefs in the supernatural upon the rest of the kids in science class?" Why do you feel the right to push your beliefs in Darwinism upon the rest of the kids in science class? Don't we both pay taxes? My kids listened to Darwinism when it was presented. What is it about creationism that you fear?
"how do we not have the right to be free from your religion?" How do Christians not have the right to be free from yours? Keep in mind, Christians don't have a choice where/how their tax dollars are spent and most can't afford to pay for your public and their private schooling.
"i don't care if you believe that purple bunnies deliver magic "eggs" on the day that a hippie supposedly came back from the dead...but don't ask for me to pay you to teach that crap to my kids..." Likewise, if you want to believe your ancestors came from monkeys, fine. But, don't ask for me to pay you to teach that crap to my kids.
You see, Mr. tollerant, it works both ways. I've at least suggested Christians are willing to tolerate your view if you will at least allow us ours. Again, when we're both forced to pay for the same education, why aren't both views encouraged?
June 30, 2008
3:42 p.m.
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jay writes:
"I find it hard to believe that I have evolved from an ameoba to a fish to a monkey to a human, no matter how many millenia it may have taken"
we call this willful ignorance because if you chose to believe the science, you would have to unchoose your superstitions...which is hard to do.
"Why do you feel the right to push your beliefs in Darwinism upon the rest of the kids in science class?"
would you prefer we teach science in music class? i'll thank you in advance not to force your supernatural beliefs on my children simply because you find science theologically inconvenient.
"You see, Mr. tollerant, it works both ways. I've at least suggested Christians are willing to tolerate your view if you will at least allow us ours."
once more...i could care less what you believe...just don't force those beliefs on my children in science class.
why again can't they be free from your religion?
June 30, 2008
3:44 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
jjez: "don't look down on those of us who have chosen to believe."
UglyDuck to Jay: "I honestly pity you."
Pajama to Jay: "I truly pity you."
Who's looking down on whom, here?
June 30, 2008
3:46 p.m.
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jjez writes:
glowrock: have you exploded yet? :-)
June 30, 2008
3:52 p.m.
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UglyDuck writes:
Ok, ok. How about this idea? Suppose we agree not to teach creationism together with evolution in a science class. However, in the interest of presenting a well rounded education and given our interest in open mindedness, what if we teach creationism in a separate class that all students are required to take. You know, in the same way students are required to take classes that include Darwinism. Will that work? Naw...I didn't think so :-)
June 30, 2008
3:56 p.m.
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davies writes:
Excuse me everyone. One, I just want to say that I am a Christian, and I believe that most Christians do not find the theory of evolution to be inconsistent with our religious beliefs.
Two: "A scientific theory is a set of scientific laws."
Man, it's been a long time since I sat in science class, but I believe that a scientific theory is a set of scientific OBSERVATIONS, along with a plausible explanation or concept that has been tested and has not been disproven, and is therefore generally accepted to be correct.
June 30, 2008
3:56 p.m.
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jjez writes:
Neil--you for one, Roger44 for another. I know you feel you have to try to convince us that we're idiots for believing as we do, probably because at some point in your life you had someone try to tell you that you HAVE to believe in God. Don't judge all of us because of a few. Those of us who have an inkling of what Jesus was trying to say (rather than those of who are just spouting others beliefs) wouldn't try to force you to believe or try to make you feel like an idiot for not believing. There are countless accounts (modern day ones even) of those who were staunch non-believers who were open to the possibility and who are now believers. Feel free to explore those stories. IF YOU CHOOSE TO. Don't do it because someone tells you to. Do it because you don't want to be close minded. And if you have explored it in the past and found that it was not for you, well then, that is your choice. And you have every right to it.
June 30, 2008
3:57 p.m.
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Charles_B writes:
PajamaPolk:
The dictionary disagrees with you!
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...
I accept your apology.
June 30, 2008
3:57 p.m.
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jay writes:
and what would you say to the school board when proposing this new "required" class in our public curriculum, ugly duck?
Fairy Tales 101?
if we teach creationism then we also have to teach the superstitious beliefs of all other cultures, cults and religions as well...just to be fair and inclusive.
do you really think that kind of information is important enough to require its teaching with our tax dollars to every child in america?
June 30, 2008
4:04 p.m.
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DenverDan writes:
Dobson and Haggard for the GOP, perfect..
June 30, 2008
4:07 p.m.
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jjez writes:
Jay---so why ARE there still monkeys? You denigrate what I believe without proving that what I believe is wrong. What you believe is not proven either. But those of you who want to be free FROM religion want all the rest of us to be free from it too. To not be allowed to believe anything at all. You don't want any talk of any sort of beliefs, except your own non-belief, to be allowed anywhere. You expect us to be tolerant of your non-belief, but you won't be tolerant of our belief. What would you do if there was a required "religions" class in your childs school? Would you remove your child from that school and teach them at home? Or would you protest the class? Or will you use it, thoughfully--without malice toward religion, as a way to teach your children to be tolerate of others--no matter what they believe? To teach them that they have choices in what they believe? Would you berate your child to dissuade them from believing in God? Or allow them their choice?
June 30, 2008
4:10 p.m.
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freedomfighter1 writes:
Hooray!!!!!
June 30, 2008
4:11 p.m.
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UglyDuck writes:
YourNeilnes:
To pity someone is not the same as looking down on them. I feel sorry for (pity) people who have swallowed the notion of evolution, who have no concept of a loving God who cares deeply for them, who have no more respect for life other than it is some worthless mass that evolved from some other worthless blob...,who have no hope for eternal life and who think the short time period we spend on Earth is all there is. I, too, was once a non-believer and, even though I doubted the existence of heaven, I feared the possiblity of hell. I now know that both exist. For those who have made crass and disrespectful comments toward those of us who know Jesus personally, are you so sure you're right? If I'm wrong about God, I die and have lost nothing and you had a good laugh. If it turns out you're wrong about God, well, are you willing to spend eternity in hell?
June 30, 2008
4:15 p.m.
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jay writes:
jjez...google is your friend.
i don't want supernatural beliefs taught in science class.
can you give me a reason why that is upsetting you so much?
as i asked ugly duck, do you believe our kids should be taught the details of various groups', cults' and religions' superstitious beliefs as a basic requirement of an american education?
June 30, 2008
4:15 p.m.
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davies writes:
DenverDan and Froward69 for Obama The Inexperienced, Obama The Ultra-Liberal, Obama The Latest Flip-Flopper. Typical Demmies.
June 30, 2008
4:18 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
I don't feel the need to convince you that you're an idiot for believing as you do. Although, it does seem rather silly to me to choose to believe an un-provable, un-testable, un-confirmable notion of a spirit in the sky creating and running everything in existence over a scientifically tested theory that makes much more logical sense.
I actually don't consider myself an atheist, believe it or not. For, an atheist, as I understand it, is a person who is sure that there is no God. I don't say that, because, how could I know? I can't test and prove or disprove the notion. It just doesn't seem very likely to me, especially in the face of solid, scientifically tested theory. I'm also not an agnostic. For an agnostic, as I understand it, is a person who is sure that one can never know about the existence of God. I don’t believe that either. I consider it possible, however highly unlikely, that something could happen that would cause me to consider the notion is possible, or even true. It’s just that nothing like that has happened to me yet and I doubt it ever will. So, I do consider myself rather open minded on the subject. I’ve taken a comparative religion class and have suggested that you believers go ahead and lobby for such a class in public schools. It was the class that helped me form my current opinions on the subject. Which is what they are, opinions. Just like your “beliefs” are. Opinions. Rather silly ones, in my opinion, but still opinions.
Another opinion of mine is that organized religions were created by small groups of men who wanted to devise a way to exercise control over the masses. Blind faith in something impossible to confirm or deny was the perfect way to do that. And it worked, and continues to work to this day. Amazing.
June 30, 2008
4:25 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Uglyduck,
Please don't try to scare me into believing in God. It's really unbecoming of a good Christian. I probably lead a life that is just as close to Jesus Christ's as most professed Christians. I, for one, don't believe that this God, if it exists, is going to tell me "well, I know you lived a good live, didn't kill or hurt people, and helped many, but you never chose to believe in me before you died, so, TO HELL WITH YOU!" I really doubt this "loving God" would do such a thing. He might actually forgive me for not believing in him before I died.
June 30, 2008
4:34 p.m.
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davies writes:
YourNeilness: "Loving God" and "go to hell" is a bit of a dichotomy all right. I'm a Christian and I believe in Christian redemption, but I have an agnostic/mystical sister who is a better person than I am. I'm still reconcling that one...
Jun