Chopper alert came too late
By Alan Gathright, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published June 18, 2008 at 9:19 p.m.
Updated June 19, 2008 at 8:17 a.m.
Photo by Becky Alfrey © Special to The Rocky
Two Blackhawk and two Little Bird helicopters fly over Denver on Tuesday evening, June 17, 2008.
Photo by Glen Barber © The Rocky
Military choppers fly over Denver in training for the war on terror
Video: Military helicopters continue to train in Denver. Watch »
Denver city and U.S. military officials said Wednesday that the public should have been notified before this week's counterterrorism helicopter exercises, which have rattled windows and residents' nerves.
But all sides stressed the benefit of the military Special Operations commandos training with Denver police and fire teams for a potential terrorism threat in a "realistic urban environment."
"We're very, very pleased and honored to have the Special Operations unit here," Katherine Archuleta, a senior advisor to Mayor John Hickenlooper, said in a speaker phone interview that included a military spokesman.
"We think that the training that has been going on in the last few days ... has been very, very positive, not only for our own community but also for the police department and fire department and the Special Operations unit," Archuleta added.
Lt. Steve Ruh, a spokesman for the Special Operations Command, said that the team has learned that it pays to communicate with the public and city leaders before sending black choppers with armed commandos.
"We will do a much better job with our protocol and coordinating with the city before we come in next time," Ruh said.
Archuleta added: "We've talked about how we can help in changing the way you reach out to the community in other cities."
The confusion began when four military choppers began flying over the city Monday night, swooping low over houses and downtown high-rises and repeatedly circling Coors Field during a Colorado Rockies game.
Soon police dispatchers were getting calls from people wondering what was going on.
Denver police Lt. Ron Saunier, who was briefed a week earlier by the military, said the military asked police Monday to "respond to inquiry only." So Saunier said he provided a "very generic statement" to police dispatchers in case the public called.
"Obviously that wasn't enough," Saunier said.
Part of the challenge is that military commandos are covert by nature, to protect their personnel and conceal their tactics, Ruh said.
He said that Special Operations teams have done low-profile training successfully in other cities without news releases and briefings.
A 1997 Washington Post article said the Special Operations Command had conducted at least 21 such exercises in U.S. cities, including Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas and Seattle over three years.
"In city after city, the exercises have drawn fire from frightened residents who are not told beforehand that the roaring helicopters flying in circles several hundred feet overhead late at night ... are trying to get as close as possible to the buildings they appear about to crash into," the Post reported.
Concern over this week's exercises in Denver prompted the mayor's office to issue a joint statement with the Defense Department on Tuesday night suggesting the military hadn't heeded the city's request months earlier give the public proper warning before the exercise.
"The federal agencies sponsoring the ongoing multi-agency training in Denver agreed to make the proper notifications regarding the exercises to prevent surprise and inconvenience to Denver residents," the statement said. "There seems to have been a misunderstanding about the reach and scope of these notifications, and they did not occur in the manner expected by the city.
"Although these exercises are in no way connected to the upcoming Democratic National Convention, Denver officials were well aware that there would be heightened sensitivity to an exercise such as this because of its proximity to the Convention," the statement continued.
Mike McDevitt, a professor specializing in political communication at the University of Colorado at Boulder, said it was hard to understand why the military and city wouldn't give advance warning. Especially given that people would notice the noisy night chopper flights.
"From a PR 101 perspective, it seems clear that this has been mishandled," he said. "It seems like such an obvious P.R. call to work with local officials and then local officials issue a press release ... to let people know what was happening."
Ultimately, not informing people did just what city and military leaders wanted to avoid — "Fuel speculation about a connection to the Democratic National Convention," McDevitt said.
If you have photos or videos of the helicopters in action, please e-mail to photoed@rockymountainnews.com
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June 17, 2008
5:18 a.m.
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AA_Cunningham writes:
Helicopters were Army MH-60 Black Hawks and MH-6 MELBs.
June 17, 2008
6:09 a.m.
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Vector049 writes:
Where was this big bad military on Sep 11, 2001?
June 17, 2008
6:34 a.m.
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Art writes:
Just wait til they start practicing the strafing runs for the Dem convention.
June 17, 2008
6:39 a.m.
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youngman writes:
What do they mean it has nothing to do with the DNC....yeah right!
just like the cutting down of all the trees by the Pepsi Center...nothing to do with the "Green" DNC
Don't frighten the masses.....or tell them the truth
the messiah is a commin
June 17, 2008
6:58 a.m.
Suggest removal
Firefox writes:
Hey Vector049 do you have a problem with our military (big bad)? Yes you are right it takes men like me to keep punks like you safe from those who would do you harm, you are welcome.
USMC
June 17, 2008
7:20 a.m.
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DahmersCookbook writes:
Saw these guys hovering above the old 'Gates' plant around 9:30pm. I thought Peckman was below being held hostage by aliens, I almost shat my trousers, almost.
June 17, 2008
7:34 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
This is done to make citizens accustomed to military hardware, and martial law easier to accept. Don't accept it, Posse Commititus puts citizen protection under police authority. Blending police and military is what tin pot dictators do to control their population.
June 17, 2008
7:58 a.m.
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airbornebigfoot writes:
just wait until the convention starts,
the military, and the local police will be trying out all kinds of
toys on the protestors. personally, I cant wait to watch it all unfold on CNN.
June 17, 2008
8:09 a.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
Number of times this exercise performed in history: Zero
Number of times this exercise performed since Sep 11 2001: Zero
And now, for the first time in history, is performed a few weeks prior to the DNC Convention.
Yeah... the only people stupid enough to believe that this had nothing to do with the Democrat party for fatcats, are the same clowns that naively believe that taxpayer funds won't be used to pay for Democrats to have a boozefest in August too.
June 17, 2008
8:18 a.m.
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hunter writes:
Hey FireFox,
I don't say this to make you mad but I'm tired of folks thinking that the only ones who protect freedom are those in the military. Freedom is protected first by the citizenry, i.e. the vote, the military is only sent in after elected officials see the need and sadly it seems that many thousand have died in combat fighting for something other than freedom. I'm glad that you and others want to do something for your country but what scares me is how blind patriotism has been and is used to accomplish the goals of a few. We need to remember that those we consider to be the first patriots of this country, the founding fathers, didn't trust government; we would do ourselves and liberty favor to do the same.
June 17, 2008
8:32 a.m.
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farsidefan writes:
I worked across from the state capitol when they had the G 8 summit here years ago. We had black helicopters flying all over downtown weeks before and during the event. The manhole covers around Civic Center were welded shut. All curb drains for rainwater were screened off.
We actually had a bomb threat called into our building.
We went outside and within minutes the black helicopters were circling, the police and bombing sniffing K-9's showed up, the police blocked off the area and the fire department was at the ready.
Bottom line : No bomb, but we went home early.
These folks are just practicing the boy scouts motto.
I wonder if the folks in Minneapolis are doing the same.
June 17, 2008
8:41 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
The media ban on this issue drives the intrigue.
Vector - on 9/11 we (the military) were scattered around the world with our hands tied by policians. After 9/11 the cuffs were loosened up a bit so that we could restore safety, but as soon as the short lived patriotism again transformed to poorly informed paranoids like yourself, military hands were once again tied. Until you have sat in some bunker waiting for the orders to go to get your axx shot at, until you are waiting on some sort of information while you ar in Saudi while you are watching the building your spouse works in get hit with an airplane, until you have eaten nothing for weeks but MRE's, you have not yet earned the right to criticise the military. When you get on the plane not knowing if you will ever see your family again, when you have delivered a death notification to a next of kin, when you have sat and earned a poverty wage as a member of the military who is out in a high threat area, when you have tried to gather up the fragments of your friend's legs just blown off by an IED, then you can criticise the military. But until you have joined us, walked in our shoes, and have been spit on by your fellow Americans because the press paints you in a bad light as losers, fodder, and baby killers, keep your damn mouth shut unless you are thanking us for the sacrifices we make daily. It is irresponsible ilk like you who hide your cowardice behind "freedom of speech" who are not deserving of the freedom that men and women have paid for with their blood. Some Americans are free by birth. Others have earned that right by setting aside their infantile selfishness, getting out, and doing something for the good of the whole country, even the gutless whiners like yourself.
For those of you afraid you are about to live under martial law - if ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest people on earth. You should feel privileged to host a training exercise. The military is not filled with gun toting monsters. It is filled with men and women who are just trying to do a job - serve their country.
June 17, 2008
8:45 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
MG, The military is for wars, domestic protection is up to the police. Bringing the military onto our soil to do the cops' job is martial law, AKA lost liberty.
June 17, 2008
8:48 a.m.
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Cabermon writes:
Remember that in addition to the noisy idiots of R-68, there are REAL terrorists out there who don't differentiate between Obama and McCain. Heck, some of them consider Obama an apostate Muslim, which confers on him a death sentance! Neither the DNC officials or R-68 can stop real terrorists, and Jack Bauer's on summer vacation. The FBI, Denver police & the US Military are our bets to prevent a terrorist catastrophe.
June 17, 2008
8:48 a.m.
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Diff writes:
Back when I was in the military and worked on fighter planes;
I had this bumper sticker:
JET NOISE!
The sound of Freedom.
June 17, 2008
8:53 a.m.
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hunter writes:
ColoNative tells us that the military is not filled with gun toting monsters, I would tend to agree. But in his previous statements he tells others that they have not earned a right if they haven't served. That is what scares me about some in the military, if this is how some of them think then there may come a day when we will think those in the military are nothing but gun toting monsters. To want to serve your country is an admirable act; just don't forget, taking liberties from Americans when ordered to do so is not protecting freedom.
June 17, 2008
8:56 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Angel - your knowledge of support agreements between the community and the military is overwhelming - you must have gone to Harvard for Law School. When natural disasters take place, who is sent in to help out already over-burdened local law officials? When there are bleeding civilians who have lost it all in a storm, who is on scene to provide the resources and man-power? When the National Guard has exhausted their state funded equipment and personnel, who is called in to provide the manpower? Please note that at every active military installation, community support agreements are in place. When Ivan hit the Florida panhandle, Eglin AFB was called to help. When Katrina hit, who were the first life saving helicopters on scene? Were they from the civilian forces? Angel, get a clue. The military are already on your soil. If you want to see violation of human rights, why not check out the routine prejudicial actions that take place by civilians against the Army in El Paso county?
June 17, 2008
9:04 a.m.
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Retread writes:
Our founding fathers also saw the danger of standing Armys, another way for our government to take our freedom. That is why we still have the second amendment to protect ourselves from standing Armys under government control. That being said, I love the sound of rotor blades in the morning, the smell of JP-4, and the sight of ships in formation. As long as they do not land on my front lawn and start pointing weapons towards me...
June 17, 2008
9:04 a.m.
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temurlan writes:
I wish I could have watched. Eveytime I see something like that or an airshow it makes me more proud of our military.
Firefox, ColoNative, rounds on me.
BTW, the other day, when I was home in Golden, I saw a Cobra gunship helicopter circling over Table Mountain. What's up with that? And yes, I can tell the difference.
June 17, 2008
9:06 a.m.
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Holmes writes:
I believe we should always support our troops, however it is even more important to support our constitution. Posse Comitatus is there to protect the citizens of this great nation from the tyrannical behavior of men who seek power at any cost. This so called "war on terror" has a faceless enemy with far reaching implications that may designate any American as an enemy combatant if they do not agree with the government of even choose to exercise their right to free speech in announcing that the "Emperor has no clothes". Do not be deluded to think we live in a day and an age where men will not do whatever it takes to see the plans they have made come to fruition. If you value the legacy given to us by our founding fathers and the sacrifice made by the men and women who serve our nation in uniform, then you should choose to not remain ignorant to what is taking place right now in America. Our liberties and freedoms are being taken away each day and are being replaced by what is being deemed to be "security" by our authorities. Be informed, be aware. This is not a criticism of anyone nor is it an accusation of anyone, this comment is simply a statement to all of us that these changes in American domestic policy once in force will not be removed and will inevitably replace the constitution as the law of the land. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS - AND REMEMBER ALL THOSE WHO DIED TO PROTECT THEM !!!
June 17, 2008
9:07 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Hunter - I'm simply saying that unless you have eaten some to the same dirt we have, lived in some of our tents, and have been blown up, shot at, and spitted on, you cannot know what we have put up with. Did you know that an E-5 in the military with a spouse and a dependent child is eligible for foodstamps because they are not getting enough pay to cover basic living costs?
June 17, 2008
9:07 a.m.
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schutz323 writes:
This is just great...we now accept the military in our cities...the more we accept this the easier it will be for our government to imprison anyone it deems a "terrorist." We need to fight back NOW
June 17, 2008
9:09 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
FOUR DEAD IN OHIO....says it all
June 17, 2008
9:13 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Schutz - Move to a city where there is an active military installation. Learn. How many towns have military bases in them? How do those communities react when realignment threatens closure? Communities begin to beg and plead for their bases to remain open. By and large, this country loves the military, and those of us who are in or have been in apreciate that love. What we fail to appreciate is the anti-military bias military coverage and paranoid people who are threatened by men and women in uniform.
June 17, 2008
9:16 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"This is just great...we now accept the military in our cities..."
Schutz, hopefully there is never a major natural disaster or terrorist attack near your home. If there ever is, I hope you remember making that statement and don't expect any assistance from the military.
June 17, 2008
9:18 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Ahhh. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to bring up Kent State. Your understanding of the situation there is outstanding. Please do more to bolster your posiiton than present an uninformed allusion to a communist backed, alcohol fueled, rioting and vandalizing mob of poorly informed and easily manipulated youth.
June 17, 2008
9:19 a.m.
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schutz323 writes:
ColoNative - the Constitution deems a standing military a threat to freedom...what we need in this country is a militia and for everyone to own a gun...I dont need protection from the big bad terrorists and I don't need blackhawk helicopters flying over our cities...let everyone in this country own a gun with absolutely no restrictions and then we don't need any protection from anybody
June 17, 2008
9:21 a.m.
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Firefox writes:
Notanamericansheep,
Patriotism for your information has kept you from speaking, Russian,Japanese,German!! I can tell you for fact that the towel heads (your words) I have shot at and that have shot at me do not hold the same morals you or I do, they would and do kill women and children without hesitation they fight the cowards fight with their IEDS. Did you forget 9/11 that is as far as I need to look to realize what side of this fight Iam on.
Sincerely,
3rd Battalion Fourth Marines Combat Out Post (COP) Haqlaniyah Iraq
June 17, 2008
9:24 a.m.
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Kered writes:
This is hilarious! I can just imagine a lot of you typing away wearing tin foil on your heads right now...it's a conspiracy! No, it's just a training excersise. It sure had me entertained for a while because it drowned out all the motorcycles!
June 17, 2008
9:25 a.m.
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hunter writes:
ColoNative, I did follow that point but I hope you see how you sounded. I don't hate the military, but I guess what I and some others know is that our very own military can be use for purposes that are less that honorable. It seems your point is about the men and women in uniform, mine is about what they may be asked to do. We can all still love our country and question those in power at the same time.
June 17, 2008
9:27 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
Ahh, JTF-6, and the drug war,
These wars on ________, are not wars for traditional means. These wars are wars on our freedom. By waging a phony war on an abstraction the safeguards must be dismantled, making it easier to justify the loss of rights to "win". Funny how 1990-1998 covers most of the Clinton years.
While I cannot list exact dates and events from then, it is easy to cite; the first Authorization for Use of Military Force, passed in September 2001 declaring the War on Terror as a war on American soil, the PATRIOT ACT, The Military Authorizations Act, all written to erode our Bill of Rights. These all pave the road to Martial law and suspension of our government. We stand today one national emergency from this possibility. Why do we accept this?
American children are indoctrinated into the American Exceptionalism, using definitions of words hijacked to misrepresent what freedom is, we all are then driven into a certain way of thinking.
Cultivating blind patriotism this controls our reactions when we are confronted with information detrimental to this indoctrination. That is how dissenters are now labeled Anti-American, or America haters.
I have several redneck friends who share the fantasy that liberals and malcontents should be rounded up and sent to detention camps. Making America pure would unify us and strengthen our resolve to win the war on terror. I don't project this onto yourself by any means, I just know that these thoughts are here.
These sentiments have been among the Americans for a century. Fascist admirers were among the corporate elite, such as Henry Ford, and Charles Lindberg. Our own George Bush's Grandfather Prescott financed the German war machine, and the Notsee party. Look it up. FDR was almost sacked in a coup by these same Fascist admirers. If it happened then, it can happen today. MG your service and loyalty is laudable, just reexamine your loyalty.
June 17, 2008
9:28 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Hunter - thanks for the clarification.
June 17, 2008
9:34 a.m.
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RedSox writes:
If this operation was done in anticipation for the DNC, then why was a similar operation conducted here in Boston, last week.
The GOP and the military must have something up their sleeves for the NBA finals. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Moonbat liberals, when will you get a clue?
June 17, 2008
9:36 a.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
Funny listening to the whiners attack the US military for doing their jobs...
The same whining clowns that will be the first to whine that the military didn't protect them when one of their inbred relatives becomes a victim of a terrorist.
Why stop at Spec Command forces in the drills.... bring in an armored division rolling M1's through downtown. Drop the 82nd into Boulder. It would be a "riot" to watch the granola heads running around wailing and with their hair on fire, as the 2nd ID rolls through LoDo.
June 17, 2008
9:38 a.m.
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jiggs86 writes:
Preparing for martial law.
Learn and prepare - infowars dot com.
June 17, 2008
9:44 a.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
It is just a show of force. I have yet to see a helicopter be able to chase a person, on foot, through the ground floor of an office building. Beside that the transition time from flying to leveling off to landing takes too long. The "pursued" will rapidly become the "gone". Clothing changes will possibly be part of the vanishing method used.
Urban crowd control may have been perfected in neighborhoods with a downtown full of one, two and three story buildings like Mogadishu, but not in American business districts with tall buildings. Shooting at American citizens goes well beyond crowd control and I can see that happening in downtown Denver. Too much collateral damage that won't be covered up and certainly will keep every lawyer, and then some, busy for a lifetime. If there is an insurrection by civilians I would give the amateurs the edge. The military and police will most likely stumble over each other.
I lived in Chicago and watched the '68 convention and post-convention games of the Chicago Police Department. Sure the police department had to defend themselves and needed to change their jackets from nylon to leather since they quickly found out that nylon burns like a SOB. In the long run the police lost and the majority of punks vanished. Only a few stood before a judge and years later became affluent businessman.
This is all going to end up "yesterday's news" and soon forgotten.
I think I'll go read a book about ancient history where the characters have more courage and a sense of right and wrong. This whole recreate '68 is too much silliness.
June 17, 2008
9:47 a.m.
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schutz323 writes:
Having a military conduct military operations in a US city is not a conspiracy theory to get people used to the military in the cities...these a gradual steps that are masqueraded as "protection" against the big bad terrorists...by the way, does anybody remember the chorus from the people right after 9/11 saying that the terrorists will not change our way of life? They have and we have allowed the government of the US to walk all over us and shred our rights
June 17, 2008
9:50 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
colonative and firefox, you both have excellent points. I think some posters have forgotten that Colorado is home to Buckley AFB in Aurora and Pederson AFB, Fort Carson and NORAD in Colorado Springs. They don't always train out in the middle of nowhere so that some people will be more comforted by not having to see military training. As it was said, the military is already on our home soil performing functions that the police would normally do. Natural disasters, and the police aren't as capable as the National Guard in assisting what's at hand. Americansheep, are you one of those conspiracy theorists that believe the U.S. government was behind the WTC attack, and the attack on the Pentagon? What would you expect the Air Force to do....... target every passenger plane and if they even slightly veer off course, shoot them down? Follow every commercial flight with a fighter jet?
Some people posting are probably appalled at the sight of the Army moving equipment from Fort Carson on I-25, or at F-16's taking off from Buckley (oh, the noise..... wah, wah), but I don't fear our military, I appreciate and admire the men and women that serve. I live close enough to Buckley to see fighter jets taking off and landing, and it still gives me goosebumps watching them. I've seen Blackhawks and other types of helicopters in the air and not once was I paranoid enough to think they were, or are, a threat.
June 17, 2008
9:55 a.m.
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bandelier writes:
Nothing but a sheepish show of GW Bush "BOO" power. Remember, kiddies - Colorado is now in play in November. So the McStain department of justice has to wave their collective juevos over the voters to make 'em think twice before voting for someone who might not support the killing machine.
Snore. Take your tiny-peckers elsewhere, nazi stains. You BORE me with your little boy games.
June 17, 2008
9:57 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
Thanks MG for your declaration. The oath of the military is to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. I just hope impending martial law triggers memory of this oath among the current servicemen. I love my country and our constitution, loyal to that document and the people, I work to better it by denouncing the current direction we are headed.
June 17, 2008
10:01 a.m.
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Hause writes:
People should not be surprised. This has been brewing for at least 40 years. The concepts of liberalism and conservatism are BOTH valid. The problem is, people who follow either are the ones that cause the problems. Fanatics of each side makes up about 10% per (hence, kook fringe left and neocon right). 80% of us are in the middle. People who truly think and listen are liberal about some things and conservative about others. To be all one way or another is totally unhealthy, chaotic, close minded, selfish to one another, destructive, and subversive to the US. So, Denver is a pinnacle. It is the liberal left chaotic homage to self destruction. Not because people proclaiming to be Democrats, or even Liberals. But because it will be the nerve center for fanatics and radicals on BOTH of these sides. Because of this, I applaud the preparations to protect the people in the "We're Screwed 2008" joke of elections.
June 17, 2008
10:05 a.m.
Suggest removal
Shadow writes:
If a situation should arise, who do you want to take action? The hostage rescue team out of Quantico (Marines), or the DPD who are afraid of lawsuits that will come to rise over agressive tactics.
Rights that have or are being erroded:
1) Smoking ban --- smoking a legal act but being prohibited
2) Right to chose what food we eat --- proposed tax and in the name of socalled health fast food tax
3) The right to express ones opinion --- if some one does not like it it is hate speech
4) Forced to inhale pot. ---- an illegal act but when in a closed elevator with a pot smoker you get just as many fumes if not more damaging consequences from their pot soked clothes then from a tobacco smoker.
5) The Constitutional right of bearing arms --- anti second amendment (gun ban), that limit or remove ones right to defend ones self against criminals
6) The right to decide what vehical one drives for, to and from work --- all in the name of it may save one tree.
The fact that local governments have worked with federal anmd military authorities for years, going back to the Lincoln assasination. To try and prevent attempts on politiacl figures, and other notable people is nothing new.
So enjoy the air show and relax. There is no conspirocy to stiffle public opinion.
June 17, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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MrJim writes:
Holy Crap, reading most of these posts it would appear that Boulder has spread all the way into Denver. You all want your freedom, then bit-ch about the groups that protect that freedom for you. You liberals would be the downfall of this country if it wasn't for the fact that enough people are still left to do the right thing. Now go put on a wig and go in the ladies bathroom, the Gov made that legal for you now.
June 17, 2008
10:29 a.m.
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agreatsign writes:
I'll bet the liberal foil hat crowd are still hiding under their beds after a Black Hawk flyover!
June 17, 2008
10:32 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
It looks like the government is preparing for a WAR against it's own people....
The LEO's get the ( supposedly ) non-lethal weapons...
But the MILITARY have standing orders to shoot to KILL.
And you already know that the DPD KILLS whenever they feel like it.
No good will come out of this mindset.
I see a mass slaughter coming up when you PROVOKE a person with a gun.
FOUR DEAD IN OHIO...
" Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it "
-Santayana
June 17, 2008
10:39 a.m.
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BSquared writes:
I just want to say that living downtown, the first couple blackhawks that flew over my apartment scared the living $^!& out of me. Once my neighbor filled me in on what was happening it was pretty cool to watch. Dont think I want to get used to it, but thats the closest I have ever been to one as it shook the floor of my apartment flying by.
June 17, 2008
10:47 a.m.
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Eli writes:
Good post, zweivierzwei. And that is coming from a conservative and a combat veteran.
June 17, 2008
10:49 a.m.
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mayday writes:
The_Punnisher writes:
FOUR DEAD IN OHIO...
" Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it "
The lesson to learn from the Kent State incident is don't take rocks to a gun fight...
June 17, 2008
10:53 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"Replace you with someone that would take orders without thinking, replace you with someone that wouldnt mind standing up to this countries people."
I think you've been watching too many movies, Notamericansheep. The military is not filled with mindless robots who follow orders blindly. We are individuals with minds of our own, and we have the common sense and morality to be able to tell right from wrong. You would be hard pressed to find a member of the military who WOULD go into an unprovoked fight against Americans, not the other way around.
June 17, 2008
10:56 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
More praise for you zweivierzwei! I agree completely!! Wow!
June 17, 2008
11:08 a.m.
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Treetop writes:
The enemies of the United States are in the White House and Congress,...not in Denver. You better fear the military as long as the 'enemy' is in charge. And with all due respect, this country will not be saved by patriots in the military, unless the Commander in Chief is in their gunsights.
June 17, 2008
11:09 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
Americansheep, why don't you expand on your theories? How did WWII "go down"? How did 9/11 "really go down"?
hause, you're right in saying that leaning too much one way or the other isn't healthy.
zweivierzwei....... I would've loved to see the SR-71 in person, just once. I agree with you about seeing the jets and stopping to take notice. Have you ever been to an air show? Anyway, your post at 10:21 was excellent and hit the nail on the head!
June 17, 2008
11:12 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
Mayday; The bottom line is that you do not deploy the MILITARY in the United States to deal with aggression. Did the government learn that lesson? We may just find out the hard way..
I have the utmost respect for the military, WHEN IT IS USED IN THE PROPER FASHION!!!
The comments in the book " Starship Troopers " ( not the gawdawful movie ) about the use of CONTROLLED VIOLENCE and the role of the military makes excellent reading; this was written by a man who SERVED and was made a speaker at his alma mater AND was required reading at War Colleges...
But when you deploy the MILITARY in a DOMESTIC CAPACITY, you run the risks of destroying the fabric of OUR society.
From Wiki:
Starship Troopers is on the reading lists of the United States Army,[33] the United States Marine Corps,[34][35][36] and the United States Navy.[37] It is the only science fiction novel on the reading list at four of the five United States military academies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship...
The military does best when deployed abroad. NOT IN THE US.
Note what happened recently with the transport of nukes in the US....and what if those copters " accidentally " discharged a few rounds in YOUR direction?
Everything can be fun...until someone gets hurt...
June 17, 2008
11:14 a.m.
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Alive writes:
This is gettin' good. It is a good thing that people can say what they really think. The Internet is changing humanity. We are finally getting to know one another. And it is entertaining to boot. Have at it folks!
June 17, 2008
11:14 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
zweivierzwei, I hope you aren't looking to get attacked. I think you enjoy that somewhat. ;) Your post wasn't too long and I agree with every point you made.
I served in the Air Nat't Guard for 13 years and miss the sounds and sights of the F16 flying overhead. Those afterburners were awesome!
June 17, 2008
11:21 a.m.
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RonaldLewis writes:
I live in Uptown and heard the copters during most of the afternoon. While on my way to have dinner last night, I inquired about the activities with the Denver PD on 16th Street Mall.
The female cop responded, "What do you think?" WTF? The last I read, Denver was scurrying to finance a multi-million shortfall for the DNC and it was being reported that they might delay the event, or that Denver might be forced to pay for the shortfall itself.
"What do you think?" Her smart response really set me off. Anyway, the male cop responded that they were doing exercise for the DNC. However, in this article, the military is claiming that these exercises aren't even related to the DNC.
So, did the DPD lie or were they partially telling the truth? Or, were these exercises something more sinister? Americans really need to wake up. Stop sniffing the glue and pay attention to what's going on in your country.
June 17, 2008
11:24 a.m.
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mayday writes:
Unless we're prepared to drastically increase the size, equipment and missions of the various police forces, the military will remain the tool of last resort for these sorts of problems. Whether it's the Ohio National Guard stopping the rioting and arson in '70, or the 101st "forcibly" integrating black kids into white schools in '57 the military will have to step in when local law enforcement can't or won't handle the problem.
June 17, 2008
11:25 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
RonaldLewis,
I wouldn't read too much into what the DPD department had to say. Maybe the female cop didn't know and that was her typical response, so as not to look ignorant herself. If there was really something going on to be concerned about, street cops would have no knowledge of any classified information.
June 17, 2008
11:35 a.m.
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Eli writes:
“I KNOW we have a great military, but these guys are told to follow orders.”
LEGAL orders, notamericansheep. The military is trained to follow legal orders, and is trained on what is and what is not a legal order.
Also, I am unaware of any epidemic in our military regarding it being taken over by violent gangs. I am aware of some former gang members in the military- I served with a few myself, and I would say that the military is probably the best place they could possibly go in order to develop discipline and get rid of the “gang banger” mentality.
I am also unaware of a large influx of non-American citizens infiltrating the ranks. I know they’re there, there were two guys in my platoon alone who were not citizens, and earned their citizenship while serving. From my experience, they exhibited no signs of any desire to turn the military against American citizens.
June 17, 2008
11:40 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
zweivierzwei writes: " About not misusing the military, well sure, but it does not always work like that in the real world. "
The quote FOUR DEAD IN OHIO IS FROM THE REAL WORLD!!
That is why I started with it. It looks like some people had better learn about the " Days of Rage " and the mindset of the country that happened then. This mindset is starting to become very familiar to those who lived through those days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category...
Are you ready for martial law?
Or are we going to allow the military to quench the violence with some violence of it's own? An " undeclared " martial law ( like the " police actions " we have seen before ) against the US Citizen?
We are opening a Pandora's box here. It's fun to play with the hardware ( The US WON'T play with the hardware I helped design, but it should ), but actually using it domestically is another thing...
June 17, 2008
11:40 a.m.
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Treetop writes:
History backs me up, why not look up Prescott Bush's role in the failed 'coup' in 1934? Don't look into the school books from public schooling, it's not mentioned. Read what Smedley Butler says, he was the most decorated Marine in his time.
Look up the business' that were closed down by the FBI, Prescott Bush again, they were closed for 'Trading with the Enemy Act'.
Look up how George H W Bush was meeting with the FBI Director only hours after John F Kennedy was assasinated. This was when George Bush was only supposed to be an 'oilman'. Our President had just been killed, where did George Bush the supposed 'oilman' carry enough weight to get a face to face meeting with Hoover?
Look up Salem Bin Ladens financing George W Bush's oil company, 'Arbusto Energy'.
Look up the middle man with Bin Laden and Bush, his name is James Bath. Former Director of BCCI.
There are too many connections from BCCI to list here, but it involves everything from a shadow government, to terrorist funding, to drug smuggling, to gay and child prostitution. Search the history of Franklin Savings and Loan, etc etc etc
Do NOT rely on the TV or newspapers for information, they are part of the conspiracy.
Do NOT rely on what I say either,....look into what I've said, and you will be sick to your stomach when you realize how bad things really are.
I love the United States, not the government
June 17, 2008
11:53 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
ColoNative: "Until you have sat in some bunker waiting for the orders to go to get your axx shot at, until you are waiting on some sort of information while you ar in Saudi while you are watching the building your spouse works in get hit with an airplane, until you have eaten nothing for weeks but MRE's, you have not yet earned the right to criticise the military."
I don't know why you're a member of the US military if this is your opinion, because last I checked, free speech IS one of our fundamental rights in this country and I assume you joined the military because you value those rights for all. But based on what you just said, it sounds like you'd rather defend martial law instead of democracy!
And I too am tired of all the bragging of certain people on this forum who served in the armed forces. I have a feeling the truly honorable servicemen and women in this country don't go around boasting that they served and that this gives them an elite privilege the rest of us don't have. I also have a feeling they were probably a lot more brave and courageous in times of conflict than some of their peers on this forum who like to tell us how superior they are to those of us who haven't served.
As I told another person on this forum once, you tarnish your badge of honor every time you shove it in someone's face.
June 17, 2008
11:56 a.m.
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mayday writes:
Punnisher:
That is why I started with it. It looks like some people had better learn about the " Days of Rage " and the mindset of the country that happened then. This mindset is starting to become very familiar to those who lived through those days
Unfortunately, the folks who need to learn those lessons are leftist protesters and the lesson is "Don't provoke the police into an appropriately violent response and than scream 'brutality'".
Y'all have tried that game plan many times before, always with the same response.
June 17, 2008
11:59 a.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
Sasquatch
Finally! Some one got it. Americans are too fat, lazy and spoiled to seriously ponder anarchy. I, for one, would love to be present, upwind of course, when that speaker is turned up. Then we can get back to serious complaining and whining as a country.
To put things into perspective....this isn't going to be another Bruce Willis movie.
The article started as an exercise, most likely for the reserves. Since then the paranoia level has escalated. If it were to hit the fan, so to speak, most of you would get in line, board the trains, and shut up when told to. A nation of fear would be born and we'd all regress back to the fun filled days of the Nazi's. The able bodied men would quickly be rounded up and most likely left in a ditch along the road. The female Denver cop was a hint...she gave a half-assed answer because she 1) she really doesn't care about the citizens sensitivity and 2) hasn't a clue as to what is going on and is 3) just following orders.
In other words if it gets noisy outside just stay in the house and watch TV. Wolf or O'Reilly or some talking head of your choice will sort it out for you. And then....just get in line. Your government will take care of you.
This has been a mixed comment so have at it. I'm bored today.
June 17, 2008
11:59 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
treetop, are you aware that George Bush Sr. used to be director of the CIA?
June 17, 2008
12:04 p.m.
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mannaman writes:
We are prepping you for MARTIAL LAW. What are you doing reading anyways, you should be watching the sports games like all the other mindless sheeple who have given up their liberty and freedom for a FALSE Security and who revel in being lied to. Franklin said that YOU deserve neither. So go and vote, doesnt matter to us in the CFR and bildaberg group who OWN both political parties! None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. Go back to sleep sheeple and dont google CFR or Bildaberg group, its better not to know who controls/owns you! If a nation expects to be ignorant and free it expects what never was and never will be!
June 17, 2008
12:06 p.m.
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Treetop writes:
Cwillyrun1: He was Director of the CIA in 1974 for the first time ever,...not 12 hours after President Kennedy was assasinated.
You did not research the FACTS that I gave you, look into them if you think you can handle the REAL truth
June 17, 2008
12:08 p.m.
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saveferris writes:
George Sr wasn't director of the CIA until 12 years after Kennedy was assinated.
June 17, 2008
12:21 p.m.
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USPatriot writes:
Some of you in the military are confusing 'freedom' to mean 'security.'
Please remember the wise Ben Franklin once said:
"those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both"
Our government is using terror to scare the populace into believing that we do not need our liberties, we instead need the military to give us SECURITY. Two very different things.
June 17, 2008
12:29 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Bravo, USPatriot! Well said.
June 17, 2008
12:33 p.m.
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Treetop writes:
True Big_D, if we listed everything the Bushes were involved, we'd have carpal tunnel sydrome before we finished. lol
Even then, the Bushes are only a small part of the criminals involved
June 17, 2008
12:37 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
It doesn't make me a different person. Plus, I don't feel that I need to be honored. I was just doing a job. I was never in any danger, except maybe when I was in Saudi for a few weeks. I do feel proud to be a citizen of the US, though, despite everything going on currently. We are becoming more and more divided.
June 17, 2008
12:41 p.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
Treetop
So start naming the criminals and what have they done? If anything is true, and can be proved, then we'll have something to research.
June 17, 2008
12:53 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
I was, in no way, trying to discredit what you or anyone else in the military did or is doing. I do agree, it was different for you. I appreciate the sacrifices of our troops and families, even if I don't understand or agree with the choices our government has made.
June 17, 2008
12:54 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"As far as the Military toys go I am more interested in the stuff that makes little to no noise now."
Like what, Big_D?
June 17, 2008
12:55 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
steel: "In my book it does make you a different person. One who will stand up for your beliefs."
Steel, one of the most electrifying examples I have ever seen of someone standing up for their beliefs is the unknown man in Tiananmen Square who refused to back down from a military tank. I also give enormous credit to whoever was driving that tank, because he probably disobeyed an order to run over the guy.
Both were standing up for their beliefs, but just one was in the military - the other was a private citizen.
I don't see how anyone can watch this and not get goosebumps: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mrQqDqOx3K...
June 17, 2008
12:56 p.m.
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USPatriot writes:
Steel,
You are confusing security with freedom. Eventually we'll be at a point in this country when we wake up and realize that foreign entities own our landmarks, we're ID'd everywhere we go, and our gun ownership is revoked. That, is not freedom. That is a police state.
See China for more...
June 17, 2008
12:59 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"I also give enormous credit to whoever was driving that tank, because he probably disobeyed an order to run over the guy."
MTS, where do you get off accusing a tank commander of giving an order to kill a civilian?
June 17, 2008
1 p.m.
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leatherneck writes:
Against all Enemies Foreign and Domestic. It seems it’s the Domestic ones we are addressing here in Denver. I personally am not looking forward to the DNC. Military exercises are bound to happen more and more. It’s an obvious target for terrorism.
June 17, 2008
1:02 p.m.
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ashlandbus writes:
The REAL service to America. This is National Service in action. Want to talk about living in poverty? Put your money where your mouth is. You don't need a gun to serve your country. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25200476/
Americorps. Period.
June 17, 2008
1:08 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
Slow you down from doing what?
June 17, 2008
1:11 p.m.
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jay writes:
lol....that's right eli, because no one ever gave an order to take action that killed civilians in war.
wow.
June 17, 2008
1:12 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, are you defending a Communist army's use of tanks to intimidate its citizenry? If so, that's certainly an interesting position for you to take.
Nevertheless, if the tanks weren't there to enforce order ultimately through killing protesting citizens if necessary, one has to wonder why these tanks were equipped with deadly artillery. That is, a thinking person wonders...
June 17, 2008
1:12 p.m.
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leatherneck writes:
I can not believe some of the crap some of you people believe to be true. 911 was a very well planned sneak attack. Some of you that honestly belive that our military had something to do with it are complete idiots!!
June 17, 2008
1:16 p.m.
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Eli writes:
I said no such thing jay, spare me your straw man arguments.
Anyway, looking at the comment again I probably jumped the gun a bit too quickly there. As the Chinese aren't exactly known for using light handed tactics, I'd say it's probably fair to say that the guidance given was "Stop the protesters". I couldn't say for sure, obviously, because I don't know.
My initial reaction was to think that MTS was referring to the immediate chain of command, which would mean the commander of that specific vehicle, and would be a very unfair accusation to throw at someone. Knee jerk reaction though, regardless, so please accept my apology MTS.
June 17, 2008
1:16 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
So you just sit back and wait for it to come to you or do you reach out and take it? Or possibly it depends on what mood you are in that day. ;)
June 17, 2008
1:17 p.m.
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MattGuyver_007 writes:
Does anyone really think this has nothing to do with the impending Democratic National Convention? Of course it does! And good for the first responders / military for preparing. If something did run amuck wouldn't you want [them] properly prepared?
That's where it should stop, though. The military has no business policing the people unless martial law is declared... and in that case I would expect / hope there would be just cause.
June 17, 2008
1:19 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, apology accepted. Thanks for giving it. :)
June 17, 2008
1:37 p.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
Big D
Regarding Operation Condor.....
This was back during the heyday of the Iran-Contra goings on. That was CIA action back then. We all are now aware that the CIA Wunderkind is a bunch of fresh faced college preppies that will tell you just what you want to hear. The old school types, that went through the Cold War, are gone. This next generation is a bunch of idiots that can lie as fast as any ten year old. Congress just has to remember that they now have competition and have to remember the lies they tell. Which could be the reason why the various members of committee's stick to asking questions and no longer ramble on ad nauseum.
If you're looking for a parallel to a government takeover this won't work. The enemies of our country are still "over there" and will be dealt with "over there".
June 17, 2008
1:39 p.m.
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jay writes:
it is not only the chinese that are using "heavy handed tactics" these days, eli.
the us has killed tens of thousands of civilians in a war of choice.
June 17, 2008
1:47 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
jay: "it is not only the chinese that are using "heavy handed tactics" these days, eli. the us has killed tens of thousands of civilians in a war of choice."
While my agreement with this statement will probably quickly dissipate my truce with Eli, I have to give it anyway.
Anyway, you know what scares me about our military? The fact that in the Constitution, the authorization of a military is given first for a domestic insurrection, THEN for foreign enemies. Our Constitution was originally crafted to give brute force power if necessary to a small group of elites - white male landowners - over the mass public. Thank God some amendments were added, but we still haven't changed the order of priorities for our military.
And so when I read a comment from a poster like Colonative who says one doesn't have the right to speak out against the military unless they served...and when I read articles about high-tech military aircraft circling our city in preparation for a convention supposedly to celebrate our democratic processes...some of my fears appear to be confirmed. This is one case where I truly hope I'm merely suffering from paranoia.
June 17, 2008
1:50 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Oh, and I forgot to add...when I read comments apparently approving the gunning down of young American citizens at Kent State.
Long story short, a lot of service people on this forum like to talk about how they fight for our freedom...but I wonder how easily they would turn on us if given the order to do so. And that's exactly why I gave kudos to whoever was driving the Communist army tank. He or she did NOT harm that protesting citizen. Let's hope if a situation does occur at the DNC convention, our own military and police will show the same kind of restraint and respect towards their fellow citizens.
June 17, 2008
1:52 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Jay,
Given your choice of the words "these days" and "war of choice", I will assume that you are talking about Iraq. Correct me if I am wrong there.
Collateral damage is a tragic but very real consequence of war. That is undeniable regardless of your feelings regarding the war in Iraq. What is also undeniable is that the U.S. military has not been given orders to intentionally target civilians.
I would even go as far to say that the U.S. military takes greater measures than any other military in the world to avoid these casualties. We invest massive amounts of dollars in precision weapons for this purpose. This doesn't mean that it doesn't happen anyway, and it doesn't mean that I am claiming or have even implied that "no one ever gave an order to take action that killed civilians".
June 17, 2008
1:54 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"Long story short, a lot of service people on this forum like to talk about how they fight for our freedom...but I wonder how easily they would turn on us if given the order to do so."
Please see the comments from myself and MarineGrunt above on this, MTS.
June 17, 2008
2:13 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, I truly hope that if it came down to it, service people would refuse to shoot their own neighbors and fellow citizens. Unfortunately, history tells a different story.
I've been doing some reading of late on what happened after the US won independence from the British. There were actually a few further rebellions happening in this country, largely against taxation that was imposed by the new US government. While the state militia refused to kill their rebelling neighbors, the federal militia that was eventually called in to quell the uprisings did not.
And there are many instances since of the military firing on and killing union organizers and protesters in the early 20th century, and of course, we have what happened in Kent State...
At any rate, it looks like there is going to be a mass amount of both police and military during the DNC convention. While I would like to believe if it came down to it, the majority would hesitate before using force upon American citizens, experience tells me that this is unlikely.
And it's not helped by the fact that many people, at least on the RMN forums, appear to welcome the idea of physical violence against at least a certain faction of the protesters.
June 17, 2008
2:24 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"There were actually a few further rebellions happening in this country, largely against taxation that was imposed by the new US government. While the state militia refused to kill their rebelling neighbors, the federal militia that was eventually called in to quell the uprisings did not."
It was a very, very different country then, MTS. Before, during and after the revolution, the individual states were considered very much sovereign from one another (not by all, mind you. this was a big cause of debate in the years to follow the revolution. In part it is also what cause the rebellions you are referring to). You could say that the union back then was more comparable to what the EU is today than to what we now think of as the United States, with each state being a province today rather than its own sovereign state.
June 17, 2008
2:27 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
steel, I've heard that new "Crowd Control" weapons have been developed that can deliver microwave-like burns, and also cause someone to actually defecate themselves. It all sounds very conspiracy-theoryish, I know...but Hickenlooper has been straight up asked if such weapons will be used to control the protestors, and he refuses to answer.
If you don't believe me, do a "microwave weapons" or "Brown Note" search in Google News for more detail. You should be able to pull up articles from the Denver Post, Fox News, the Houston Chronicle, and various other sites about the speculation of these weapons being used at the DNC.
June 17, 2008
2:27 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"And it's not helped by the fact that many people, at least on the RMN forums, appear to welcome the idea of physical violence against at least a certain faction of the protesters."
I do agree 100% with this part of your post. I consider an equal amount of force to be acceptable, nothing more. Should protests turn into violent riots, nonlethal force is appropriate. Should rioters turn deadly, say for example going after police with a knife or a gun, then a deadly force response is appropriate.
Wishing for violence against the protesters is completely unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.
June 17, 2008
2:38 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Yeah, but what I worry about is who is in charge of figuring out what constitutes an "equal amount of force." I mean, if protesters start throwing rotten tomatoes or something, does that justify beaming them with ray guns that fry their skin?
That's just one scenario, of course. I've never actually been in a riot, so I don't know what exactly sets them off. I've been in a few protests, but they didn't get violent. Although people walking by who didn't agree with the protesters got kind of ugly...and you never know if such a situation could start a riot. Someone on the opposing side instigates it, but it's the protesters who get shot with a hail of rubber bullets. Or worse, according to what I'm reading. They're developing some seriously scary sounding "Crowd Control" weapons, and from what I've read, they want to test these weapons out domestically before using them in foreign military conflicts!
June 17, 2008
2:46 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
Wow, when I was a kid, the only danger at a parade would be the possibility of getting hit in the eye with a Jolly Rancher or smacked with a Hershey's Kiss.
June 17, 2008
2:48 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
...and the only defecation would be from a horse.
June 17, 2008
2:49 p.m.
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Eli writes:
That's a fair enough concern, MTS, and citizens do have legal recourse if police use excessive force. I know it can be argued that the deck is stacked against the victim there, and in some cases that may be true and some it may not, but the fact remains that law enforcement does not have the authority to use excessive force. I also think that often times protesters will scream "police brutality" when there is none. Protests held at the marine recruiting station at Berkeley would be a good example.
I have actually read quite a bit about the specific weapon you are referring to. No, throwing tomatoes would not justify the use of such force. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over tear gas being used for something like that, though.
Personally, I think you're much more worried than you need to be. Police using excessive force and abusing protesters would be the exception, not the rule, and when excessive force is used the public backlash against the department in question isn't exactly mild.
June 17, 2008
2:49 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
Wow, our minds were in the same place as the horse poo, in the gutter!
June 17, 2008
2:52 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
There is a possibility the tomatoes could be infected with salmonella. Wouldn't that be considered force with a deadly weapon?
June 17, 2008
2:53 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Oh, and regarding that microwave weapon...I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it doesn't "fry" the skin. It actually doesn't cause physical damage.
I do think it'd be a bit excessive to use in a situation like your tomato scenario, but whatever you're reading is giving you some false ideas about what this technology does.
June 17, 2008
2:55 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
"Our government is using terror to scare the populace into believing that we do not need our liberties, we instead need the military to give us SECURITY." I have stayed out of this one due to the freakshow it has become...BUT...are you kidding me? I think the terrorists used the terror! And it should be pointed out that we havent had another attack on US soil in 7 years! If our government was using this as a tactic, would'nt they have done it again to reel in the non-believers? Get real people.
June 17, 2008
2:59 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli: "Personally, I think you're much more worried than you need to be."
Perhaps. I certainly hope I am. On the other hand, I can't shake the nagging feeling that some of could be a little more worried than we are. Taken as a whole, I've seen three articles today about disturbing government intrusion in our lives. This one, another article about cameras installed at intersections, and a third article about performing random urine tests on schoolchildren. While a handful of the posters express some real opposition to all of the above, the majority pooh-pooh the concerns, crack jokes, or bristle if we don't like it, too bad.
I am concerned. If the citizens of this country don't watch out, they're going to become a bunch of frogs who don't realize they're sitting in a boiling pot because the temperature was turned up so slowly.
June 17, 2008
3:02 p.m.
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Eli writes:
I think that was his point, steel.
June 17, 2008
3:05 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
mytwosense,
I am also concerned. But it is no surprise that there could be tragic happenings during the DNC and I feel more secure in the fact that we are gearing up to be prepared for any sort of attack. It is sad it has come to this, and we all should be at least a little concerned.
June 17, 2008
3:07 p.m.
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Eli writes:
You're getting into a whole bunch of different topics there, MTS. Each one of those could be debated individually and result in a very long thread.
I see the larger point...concern over big brother getting too big. It's a valid point, and issues like drug tests, cameras, etc. can and should be debated on their own merits. But they are not cause to think that the military is going to turn on American civilians and start slaughtering anyone who dissents.
June 17, 2008
3:13 p.m.
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temurlan writes:
Rocky reader while taking a photo of a helicopter: She said she waved at one of the copters "and someone waved back!"
That says it all right there.
June 17, 2008
3:15 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, I understand what you're saying, I really do. On the other hand, my own point isn't exactly that "the military slaughters anyone who dissents."
And in fact, my point is kind of evolving as this conversation progresses...
But what I think I'm trying to articulate is that we are allowing the stage to be set for such events, even if that event is only a possible one that is far down the road.
Degree by degree, we're getting used to ever more sophisticated weaponry used by our police against our fellow citizens, and also to massive military exercises in the name of "terrorist protection." I mean, my God - look at some of the blase reactions by people who live in Denver. One woman "waved" to one of the helicopters, then turned on her AC to drown out the noise.
One poster came on here and shared the sarcastic and vague response he got from a cop when he asked what was going on. Who responded, "What do you think?" I mean, where is the respect from so-called civil servants to the people who pay their salary??
I don't think our government is properly afraid of its citizens. As it should be - not the other way around.
A government that was truly afraid of its own citizens would never adopt such intrusive practices, from random drug tests to spy cameras. No, not even by using all the arguments of homeland safety and security in the book.
June 17, 2008
3:22 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
And it seems the government can do whatever it wants, and spend our money however it wants if it's in the name of fighting terrorism.
June 17, 2008
3:29 p.m.
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FranktheTank writes:
schutz323 - you sound a lot like a few crazy malitia members that have done some horrible things to innocent people. You are no better than a terrorist.
June 17, 2008
3:34 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
treetop, I think you've missed my point. Bush Sr was owner of an oil company and then got into politics, but did you know he's the youngest naval aviator ever? Of course, that means he's served in the military, and at the time of JFK's assassination, probably had connections with high level politicians and military personnel (considering he later served as CIA director, Ambassador to the United Nations and Congressman from Texas....... those jobs don't go to someone who isn't somebody, get it?). At the time, Lyndon Johnson, ironically from TEXAS, was being sworn in as the President. Don't you think there's a connection there, or do you think the Bush family has just controlled every military action that the U.S. has been in since the start of the 20th century? Why don't you claim that Lyndon Johnson was interested in war to only preserve big money military contracts with Texas based companies? I mean, why not come up with every conspiracy theory possible? Problem is, it's not indicative of the truth.
Nope, I didn't research the so-called facts that you've presented..... I'd be wasting my time chasing something that only exists when an opinion is presented.
June 17, 2008
3:34 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
And by the way, I imagine this military exercise cost a great deal of money to implement. Yet, according to this article, the Rocky Mountain News is having a devil of a time figuring out who actually authorized it. Stories seem to conflict on this subject.
Yet not a single taxpayer on this forum objects to not knowing who gave the greenlight for their money to be spent on this.
We are getting WAY too disengaged with the running of our own country.
June 17, 2008
3:57 p.m.
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jiggs86 writes:
Think you're free?
"The President has the power to seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, call reserve forces amounting to 2 1/2 million men to duty, institute martial law, seize and control all menas of transportation, regulate all private enterprise, restrict travel, and in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all Americans...
"Most [of these laws] remain a a potential source of virtually unlimited power for a President should he choose to activate them. It is possible that some future President could exercise this vast authority in an attempt to place the United States under authoritarian rule.
"While the danger of a dictatorship arising through legal means may seem remote to us today, recent history records Hitler seizing control through the use of the emergency powers provisions contained in the laws of the Weimar Republic."
--Joint Statement, Sens. Frank Church (D-ID) and Charles McMathias (R-MD) September 30, 1973
google FEMA CAMPS to learn more - WAKE UP AMERICA!
June 17, 2008
3:58 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
mytwosense, didn't you think the military budget takes into consideration the costs of training exercises, in all branches of the military, and everywhere they're at? Do you really think a training exercise is exclusive to just this one time? You'd be okay with the military sitting all the time until something comes up and then they can get to action.... unprepared. Geez, you are naive.
June 17, 2008
4:16 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
cwilly, whatever you just yammered on about has nothing to do with what I'm asking, which is: WHO is authorizing these "training" sessions in Denver?
The Denver Police insist it's the Justice Department, while the Justice Department insists they're not involved. The "Commando" unit says its not the DOJ either, but they don't say who authorized it.
We're supposed to trust in the efficiency of the planning being done when they can't even get their stories straight on who authorized it? We're supposed to trust that our money is being well spent when no one can even tell us who authorized the money to spend on this exercise??
We're supposed to trust these exercises really aren't about intimidating Denver citizens when the people conducting them don't even have enough respect for Denver citizens to reveal who greenlighted these exercises?
Unlike some people on this forum, it takes more than uttering the phrase "part of the fight against global terrorism" to keep me from asking obvious questions. Right now, this appears to be a glaring display of disdain for Denver citizens. No heads up that helicopters were going to be swooping all over the city at all hours of the night, and zero information on who authorized it.
June 17, 2008
4:18 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"Degree by degree, we're getting used to ever more sophisticated weaponry used by our police against our fellow citizens, and also to massive military exercises in the name of "terrorist protection."
What makes you think that more sophisticated weapons being used by police is a bad thing? It used to be that all police had was a firearm. So, if you were a cop, and someone was getting aggressive with you your options were to try to eliminate that threat by hand or shoot the individual. Weapons like tasers, mace, etc. give police more options for using non-lethal force. A drunk idiot wielding a knife on the street doesn't necessarily need to be shot. More sophisticated weapons are a good thing for both the police, that drunk idiot, and that drunk idiot's family. The threat is eliminated, and the douche bag doesn't get shot sparing his life and saving his family the grief of that loss.
"One woman "waved" to one of the helicopters, then turned on her AC to drown out the noise."
So what? Some people were annoyed by it, and some people didn't care. This woman didn't feel threatened. There's nothing wrong with that.
"who responded, "What do you think?" I mean, where is the respect from so-called civil servants to the people who pay their salary??"
From the way the article makes it sound, this particular individual officer would be what we would refer to as a douche bag. You'll find some in just about every group of people, cops included. The entire group should not be judged by the actions of the douche bags.
"And it seems the government can do whatever it wants, and spend our money however it wants if it's in the name of fighting terrorism."
This part I actually agree with. Military spending is ludicrous, and in this regard I think our military needs serious reform. I'm not referring to this specific exercise as far as spending is concerned. This is where the military SHOULD be spending money- on training and equipment. I could go on for a very, very long time about the waste to be seen in the military, we'd need an entire thread for that. Maybe more. Suffice it to say, when you're sleeping in a ditch on the Iraq/Iran border and the Army sends you air conditioners instead of water, they are wasting money. Stupid stuff like this runs rampant in the military.
June 17, 2008
4:24 p.m.
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ArmyRangermom writes:
MarineGrunt - you seem to be the only one that understands anything to do with the military - duh your military (or former). Too bad nobody else can see what a good thing our military has done for our country. Maybe they all need to have a loved one serve overseas in a time of war, than they can appreciate our freedoms..........
June 17, 2008
4:33 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Hey ArmyRangermom, a lot of people in my family served in the armed forces, including both of my parents. And you know what? NONE OF THEM had such a thin skin that they took any and all criticism of the *use* of our military as a personal affront.
Unfortunately, we have more than our fair share on this forum who apparently do.
And we're supposed to believe some of these people wouldn't gladly arrest - or worse - a dissenting citizen? Pfft. Please.
June 17, 2008
5:02 p.m.
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WyoDutch writes:
I'm a vet myself and all 4 of my sons either served or are serving (one currently in Afghanistan) in the U.S. military. Having said that... I see no place in America's cities for the military, save occasional humanitarian duties. The U.S. military has it's place, but it isn't in running the courts (Military Tribunals) or spying on legitimate and appropriate domestic dissent... and it certainly has no legitimate place in the skies above one of our largest cities.
Read the United States Constitution folks... you'll find nothing there that promises to keep you safe. You can have Freedom, or you can have safety, but you cannot have both.
Someone asked in a previous post "What freedoms did you lose because the U.S. military is conducting domestic operations?" The answer is.. we have no idea. And therein lies the danger.
June 17, 2008
5:52 p.m.
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Ishmael1 writes:
Nahh. They're just practicing for the false-flag nuclear attack on the Rocky Flats Nuclear Power Plant during the convention. That will provide the necessary "catastrophic event" to trigger all those COG directives like NSPD-51 while wiping out the domestic opposition since the attack WILL be blamed on Iran. Note that both the 9/11 AND London 7/7 subway bombings occured DURING terror attack Drills.
Consider that this administration HAS committed both war crimes and treason for lying us into an unnecessary war, approving torture, etc. and are deathly afraid of trials for those crimes after they are out of power. Now that impeachment has been read into the record, Bush is legally unable to pardon anyone involved for their roles in these crimes. So it makes sense for the Bush admin to just destroy the domestic opposition and blame it on someone else.
Why am I saying these things? As a former member of the Nuclear Weapons Handling Teams and an expert in precision-guided and nuclear weapons, if I was in their shoes and knowing what I know, that's what I would do. So my advice to Denverites is this.
Take a vacation for the week of the convention far away from Colorado, make sure your homeowners insurance is paid up with no deductible and consider the impact of a nuclear strike hitting the 56 tons of weapons-grade uranium and plutonium that sits at Rocky Flats.
June 17, 2008
5:55 p.m.
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Jim_in_Erie writes:
Sheesh....
If the government, any part of it, does something as training for the potential of an attack, it's all planning for martial law.
If they don't train for potential attacks, and fail with a "wing it" try, then it's all about how incompetent 'they' are.
What a bunch of mental midgets are so very many.
June 17, 2008
6:29 p.m.
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joemash writes:
Super armed SWAT and military-style home invasion Drug Warriors say: Military?! We don't need no stinking military!!
June 17, 2008
6:57 p.m.
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USMC_SNAKE_PILOT writes:
I usually try to stay out of news forums, but sometimes the stupidity requires a response.
I am a Marine Attack Pilot (AH-1W SuperCobra). I have conducted the same training in several cities across the US with Marine Special Operations units. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, subjugating the masses, or destroying constitutional rights. Training in an urban environment provides us an opportunity to use night vision systems that work much differently in a brightly lighted city, to fly near large buildings and land in confined spaces much different than the usual environments we train in. I can remember the same type of public reaction during similar training we conducted in the early 90's - at that time we were accused of the same motives, at that time is was "practice run for controlling the LA riots and subjugating the masses, martial law, etc". Never happened. Never will. Some people need to relax on this forum. Exaggerating to the extent that I see some people do, in order to make their point, totally destroys their credibility. As someone who has been to 23 countries and seen real poverty, despotism, and usurping of rights, I am embarrassed by the ridiculous comparisons of this administration to Nazis, etc. To do so is ultimate ignorance, and an affront to those who are true victims of atrocities worldwide. It is easy to be an armchair blogger, isn't it?
I think it is quite ironic that the same people who complain about the "lack" of a military response/prevention of the 911 attacks are the same ones complaining when we train to protect them or save them from natural disasters - the US Air Defense response up to 911 was focused, as it should have been on the historical external threats - there was no precedent for the type of attack we saw on 911, the response time to intercept too quick, and distance to intercept was too far before the planes crashed. No military pilot could have envisioned a scenario where they would be shooting down a civilian airliner with hundreds of innocents on board. We do now, and it is still unthinkable when you are in the cockpit, something someone who isn't in that position could not imagine. But that's part of our responsibility.
June 17, 2008
7:32 p.m.
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Ishmael1 writes:
Snakepilot, how are the comparisons inaccurate? No one outside the administration has read NSPD-51 in it's entirety because the Bush admin has classified it. So here are some comparisons:
Bush: Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, NSPD-51
Nazis: Ennabling Acts enacted after the Reichstag Fire.
Bush: Illegal blanket wiretaps on everyone per Mark Klein even routing domestic calls thorugh foreign countries so NSA could eavesdrop.
Nazis: Purchases of some of the first IBM computers to the SS and Geheim Staatspolizei for tracking "dissidents".
Bush: Downing St. memo indicates intelligence being fixed around the invasion of Iraq. Bogus intel fabricated by Pentagon's Office of Special Plans and sold through the White House Iraq Group. Constant smearing of opponents as "unpatriotic" and cashiering of military officers who dared speak the truth, witness Shinseki.
Nazis: constant drumbeat for war for lebensraum. Use of flase flag attack to justify invasion of Poland.
So my question to you is this. When martial law comes and you receive the order to fire on your fellow citizens, will you obey your orders?
June 17, 2008
7:45 p.m.
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Jim_in_Erie writes:
It is always the truly most amazing thing that people who are actually involved in something, don't have a clue what it is they are doing.
Yet some yahoo sitting at his keyboard knows, understands and is only giving fair warning to everyone else about the coming catastrophe!
When they aren't selling their latest "system" to beat Vegas, that is.
June 17, 2008
8:06 p.m.
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Treetop writes:
Cwillyrun1: This is not my 'opinion' as you say it is, it's factual history, look it up.
Prescott Bush was managing assets that supported the Nazis. Prescott Bush's business interests, seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act in October and November 1942, included:
Union Banking Corporation (UBC)
Holland-American Trading Corporation
the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation
Silesian-American Corporation
June 17, 2008
8:50 p.m.
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milwife2 writes:
It is amazing on how people take free speech to the extreme. I vote for mandatory military service for every high school graduate for two years. If EVERYONE had to serve, the idiots who post things about martial law, noise of helicopters, etc.. would never even think of bashing the military and their training. and that's what it is.... training! You know I am married to one of those guys hanging out of that helicopter and he has been doing this type of training even before 9/11 in areas like Denver. Guess everyone else was too self-absorbed with their lives to notice before. 9/11 has just brought their training to the forefront of everyone's mind because they want to be able to complain about how this war is effecting their sleep. This war is effecting my children everytime my husband has to leave for these trips two weeks out of EVERY month and then 6 months of every year! So forgive me if i don't care about how it disturbs you. Unless you are willing to grab a gun and join in the fight of this war then you just need to silently sit by and support your fellow americans who are over there everyday fighting for your right to betray them with hurtful words of their training.
June 17, 2008
9:02 p.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
mytwosense...
" a lot of people in my family served in the armed forces, including both of my parents. "
Wow.... that's as relevant as a man saying "my mother gave birth, so that entitles me to lecture women about childbirth"
When you finally get up and SERVE like the rest of us, THEN you can preach. Until then, you're opinion is just that.... an opinion that has NO basis in experience.
June 17, 2008
9:44 p.m.
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leatherneck writes:
SNAKE: Thank you for your service and thanks for setting some of these morans straight. It seems painfully obvious that many of these blogers have no idea what our military is all about. They are just haters of the current administration. Good Hunting Devildog
June 17, 2008
9:57 p.m.
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leatherneck writes:
RememberThis: Please!! Your a moran and the crap you are spuing out is just diarea of the mouth!! Keep your ultra left wing opinions to your self and go back to the Lib sites you normaly read. If you don't like it here in our country, Please do us all a favor and get out...
June 17, 2008
10:11 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Mandatory service is a bad idea, milwife. I would definitely not have wanted to rely on any bitter, angry draftees in Iraq.
June 17, 2008
10:32 p.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
Ishmael1, I would be more concerned about a strike on the OPERATIONAL Nuclear reactor ( why does the USGS need a 1 MW reactor? ) in the FED Center.
that is not tin-foil, that is REALITY. ( A TRIGA Mk I ) I bet quite a few didn't know we have a working reactor a few minutes away from down town.
Oh, I know a lot more details... You would be surprised at how I got them....
You think Martial Law is a bit far fetched? You might want to look at the realities people are going to face this winter with skyrocketing energy prices ( it affects the cost of EVERYTHING, look at what Xcel wants for a rate hike ) along with depressed earning power...
Add the military antics commanded by a CinC that has already defied the will of the people ( remember, he tried to shove AMNESTY down our throats and We the People REBELLED ) and we have a " perfect storm ".
" We live in interesting times " surely fits our situation NOW.
I already lived through the 60's & 70's in the SFBA ( I got BOMBED ( literally ) in Berkeley ) and saw my fair share of riots and the trigger events that caused them.
That is why I have commented in this manner. The military had it's " show of force " in those days, too.
I repeat: " Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it "
-Santayana
( Oh, Dad served in the Korean " Police Action ", my brother was a Marine in Panama when we gave away the canal and my Uncle served in 'Nam. I just helped design bigger & better bombs by designing the machines used at LLNL and LANL....and the NRO and a host of government TLA places...)
June 17, 2008
11:36 p.m.
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Treetop writes:
Gene:People get the government they deserve, you are proof
June 18, 2008
12:23 a.m.
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Artemis writes:
YEAH, RIIIIIIIIIGHT, the maneuvers have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the upcoming DNC. Sheesh, some people will believe anything...
June 18, 2008
2:19 a.m.
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portal_pyramids writes:
Maybe we should consider everything will be and is all right.
F.E.A.R.=forgetting everything is all right
"the only thing to fear is fear itself"
I have come to realize that most everything I know or believe is a story and not necessarily true. I challenge everyone to think from the heart and the gut and to become aware of our manifesting negative thoughts. Fear fear.
June 18, 2008
5:23 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"You shouldnt be divulging that"
RememberThis, being married to a member of the military is not classified information.
June 18, 2008
6:48 a.m.
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danirobi writes:
haha vote Obama in '08? Yeah, go ahead and vote for the guy that wants to let Osama appeal his case in US Courts...
June 18, 2008
7:05 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"This will keep the little pencil necks in shape . I think we would have less cry babies in our country ."
That is true, artstarzz. However, the purpose of the military is not to "keep the little pencil necks in shape", nor is it to make less crybabies out of our citizens. The purpose of the military is to fight and win the nation's wars. This is best accomplished with well trained and motivated professionals, not with people who are lacking any motivation because they were forced into the service against their will.
June 18, 2008
7:05 a.m.
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Alive writes:
Obama is way too left. He will sacrifice common sense to please his "base". Radical leftists are very susceptible to peer pressure. If he gets elected, count on it. Do we really want to make a move toward socialism?
Do we really want to give power to the nut-jobs in San Francisco?
June 18, 2008
7:12 a.m.
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carryBIGstick writes:
OH MY GOD, THE MILITARY IS FLYING OVER US AND IS GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!! I'M SOOOOO SCARED I WANT MY MOMMY AND MY TEDDY BEAR AND THAT WILL MAKE IT ALL GO AWAY!!!!
I for one like it, think it's great to watch and the more they do it, it makes bet-wetting liberals cry. However, would it not be more fun it the boys and girls in the choppers did this in Boulder. Now that would be great!!!!!!!
June 18, 2008
7:18 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
"The government didn't do it the first time, and they really don't think much about you "non-believers". Who would you go running to if Abu and his ragheaded band came to your door? The UN?"
READ my post, I was saying the conspiracy theorists are wacky! Read....
June 18, 2008
7:32 a.m.
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farsidefan writes:
FYI..two different media outlets this morning stated what Snake Pilot wrote above : This training also took place in New York, Los Angeles and Boston. It is hard to train in an urban environment of this scope on a military base. Does it coincide with the convention ? Probably. Do I mind ? No.
One of the most interesting evenings I have spent were the nights following 9-11. All I could hear in the night air was the sound of the fighters flying over the front range.
It was reassuring and erie at the same time.
June 18, 2008
7:58 a.m.
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TC writes:
I've never been in the military. But I've done engineering work at the national labs on military bases. Society at large could use a little more of what the military has - respect, discipline, purpose. If I was going to have to chose someone to trust, it would be more likely to be someone in a military uniform than not. Hope it can stay that way.
June 18, 2008
8:54 a.m.
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temurlan writes:
Eli writes: “The purpose of the military is to fight and win the nation's wars.”
The first purpose of the military is to be strong and ready so we don’t have to fight. To be ready requires training. These guys are elite soldiers, airman, etc. They always train on their bases and ranges out of the public eye. They are very good at what they do and are justly proud of it. Training here is a real world scenario that they may have to operate in some day. Must be a treat for them to show the public what they can do even though they want to maintain their anonymity. I would like to see more of this.
June 18, 2008
8:57 a.m.
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USMC_SNAKE_PILOT writes:
RememberThis writes:
"The joke is really, unfortunately on you guys cause you have to fight for the wrong reasons and you know that to be true in your hearts, yet you can do nothing except follow orders."
The amount of paranoid conspiracy freaks on this board is more disturbing than any scenario they conjure up in their minds. I can't imagine how people this paranoid make it through a full day.
Just to clarify, for those not seeing the obvious, firing on a terrorist-controlled jetliner about to kill thousands on the ground being compared to indiscriminant firing on our on citizens in a fantasy-generated martial law scenario is ridiculous. I would not fire on our citizens in such a case, and it is not going to happen.
Those that think we in the military mindlessly follow orders obviously have no understanding of reality in the military. The sad reality for someone like RememberThis is that he/she does not know the honor, courage and integrity of those he/she is degrading based on assumptions and not reality. Thanks for your comments and others like you - you make me and those I serve with even more honorable.
My question to all of you extremists - what extent are YOU willing to warp the truth to make your point of view, and how is that different from those that you attack? Apparently you are willing to do WHATEVER it takes, including warping the truth. You are no different than those on the other side you attack.
I hope someday we can get back to a country that focuses more on what we have in common than our differences. Until then, I and those I serve honorably with in the military will continue to do our job.
June 18, 2008
9:16 a.m.
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milwife2 writes:
TC is correct that the military experience teaches respect, discipline and purpose, which appears alot of people making these absurd posts are in need of. As Eli pointed it out it is not classified for me to say my husband is one of those "rooftop cowboys" you refer to remember this. As I am very proud of my "rooftop Cowboy"! I would definitely vote for mandatory service to teach what alot of people are in need of, the respect for their military and others around them, discipline that alot of our youth lack today, and the purpose one should have in their life that involves more than just them. And remember this... ponder this next time you say something derogatory about a service member, would you rather have them fighting this war over there and training in your backyard or fighting this war over here? Would you be able to protect yourself, probably not but you would expect my "rooftop cowboy" to step in and protect your sorry rear end!
June 18, 2008
9:16 a.m.
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Eli writes:
Temurlan,
Please do not try to lecture me on where, how and why soldiers train. I am already well aware of that, and I have a CIB to prove it. What, exactly, was the point of that post?
June 18, 2008
9:19 a.m.
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jtriska writes:
Thank you TC for summing it all up for us. It just proves from reading these posts from our "friends" in uniform that it is an Us V.S. Them mentality. If ordered to do so the Military would grease your neighborhood in a heart beat. I don't fear our government because I choose to stay away from rallies or protests that would warrant me getting peppered or crapping my pants if I exercised my "freedom" to express my views against the boss man and thus be labeled a terrorist. Try flying lately? EVERY AMERICAN CIVILIAN IS A SUSPECTED TERRORIST UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.
I am fully convinced that this is an exercise to control us, the U.S. citizen. $6.00 a gallon gas is right around the corner, Excel bills that nobody will be able to pay, health insurance that nobody will be able to afford, skyhigh groceries.....and on and on. The straw is approaching the camels back and the man knows it. They are aware that we are being pushed way too far and the breaking point is near.
I especially enjoy the posts about a domestic war not happening on our soil. North against South ring a bell? Our Country was founded on Genocide. Yet we feel justified fighting Iraq because their people were being abused by a dictator and they didn't have any rights or democracy.
Don't get me wrong. I believe our troops should be home now. I don't want to hear of another young man dying for nothing. If we are so concerned about human rights why are we not sending our forces to help ease the suffering in the Sudan. Oh yeah, they don't have Oil.
The terrorists on 9/11 were Saudi's funded by our friends in the U.A.E. stationed in Dubai. Any of our Military there? Nope, because the ones with the most money really win, and when they win we want to be their friends. HA!
June 18, 2008
9:23 a.m.
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temurlan writes:
Eli, my bad. I didn't properly read your post and wrongly lumped you in with some others.
I was on a tear about those who are complaining about this weeks activities and are obviously anti-military.
Thank you for your service.
June 18, 2008
9:37 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
rickg: "When you finally get up and SERVE like the rest of us, THEN you can preach. Until then, you're opinion is just that.... an opinion that has NO basis in experience."
So by this logic, until you've served as a Senator, you have no basis to give your opinion on Barack Obama. Until you've held a job as a waiter, you have no basis to complain about the service you get at a restaurant.
And for your information, all I need as a basis to criticize the *use* of military force is that I'm a taxpaying citizen. But the reason I referenced my family's service records is because I was responding to someone who also had a family member in the service - who stated that people might not criticize if they had family members who served.
At any rate both she and you are wrong to think that criticism of our *use* of the military automatically means criticism of individuals who serve in the military and a general disrespect for members of the military. That's just not true.
In fact, on other threads I complain quite a bit about private contractors in Iraq getting paid more than our soldiers, and in many cases, doing jobs that previously were assigned to soldiers. I also complain about our young men and women being used as human shields in an endless war over oil. Not surprisingly, few of you chime in to agree on those issues...
June 18, 2008
9:39 a.m.
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R8R_H8R writes:
People COMPLAINED about the distraction??? How incredibly STUPID are these people? We are incredibly FORTUNATE to have a strong military to protect us and should be grateful they are trying to be prepared. The same people who COMPLAINED about it, would be the ones blabbing off their loud-mouths complaining if they WEREN'T prepared during some type of emergency.
June 18, 2008
9:49 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
temurian: "I was on a tear about those who are complaining about this weeks activities and are obviously anti-military."
This is exactly the kind of mentality that would attempt to silence citizen dissent. If you disagree with the war in Iraq, why, you're a terrorist supporter. If you disagree with the Patriot Act, why, you're not a Patriot. If you disagree with the current military "exercise," you're against the military.
Extremist thinking and preposterous interpretations. Two ingredients that, by the way, can always found in efforts to squash the very essence of liberty: one's fundamental right to hold and freely speak an opinion.
June 18, 2008
9:57 a.m.
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milwife2 writes:
no if they themselves served, not family members twosense.
June 18, 2008
9:59 a.m.
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temurlan writes:
mytwosense, I said nothing about Iraq or the Patriot act. I just pointed out in my earlier post that a well trained and strong military is a way to avoid war. If you look at a lot of the posts complaining about the training you can see an obvious anti-military slant.
June 18, 2008
10:02 a.m.
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milwife2 writes:
two sense, you think because you are a tax paying citizen that you have earned the right to know everything about what goes on. think about this if the "rooftop cowboys" advertise the tactics they are using to people who demand to know what their money is paying for, don't you think the "bad guys" would get wind of it too? it' s called national security for a reason. I am married to one of the "rooftop cowboys" and i had no idea he was doing any of this and probably wouldn't have if the people of denver hadn't made such a huge fuss about it.
if the bad guys get wind of how they train, people die. not just the soldiers, but civilians too.
June 18, 2008
10:04 a.m.
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TC writes:
jtriska
You frighten me alot more than a gunship pilot with his finger on the trigger of a Hellfire missile. You may be worried about your neighbors getting greased by our military. Not sure where you live, but I'm not really that worrried about it happening in my neighborhood.
June 18, 2008
10:19 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
milwife, yes, that is another statement I hear a lot: We must maintain secrecy to protect ourselves.
To a certain extent, I agree. But I do most definitely do not agree in using this argument as an all-purpose excuse for any tactic our government and military choose to take, whether it's for "the war on terror" or to protect the delegates at the DNC.
And interestingly, even the powers-that-be in this case are basically blaming each other for not informing the residents of Denver that this exercise was going to take place, and what's more, they can't get their stories straight on which agency authorized it. They're not even crying "secrecy must be maintained."
Anyone with a healthy amount of curiosity is rightfully going to question what's going on here. We are currently being told this has nothing to do with the upcoming DNC. I can't help but wonder why seven years after 9/11, this "routine" exercise is now being performed in Denver. I know there was some activity similar to this right after 9/11, but to my memory, nothing like this since.
June 18, 2008
10:28 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
oops, typo. I said: "But I do most definitely do not agree..."
I meant: "But I most definitely do not agree"
June 18, 2008
10:36 a.m.
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an_artist writes:
LET IT GO!!!!!!!!!
June 18, 2008
10:37 a.m.
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milwife2 writes:
Its been performed all over. NY , Texas , etc. Guess the people in those areas are more tolerant to the disruption of their everyday life for their comfort of knowing they are being protected. There are no conspiracies here. No DNC motives. Just training that they have been doing for years even before 9/11. Guess u were just too self absorbed to notice before.
June 18, 2008
10:45 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
milwife2,I see you're an expert on these training exercises. Can you share with us how many of them have been performed in the city of Denver since 9/11?
Looking forward to your knowledgeable and informed reply, thanks!
June 18, 2008
10:56 a.m.
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milwife2 writes:
I know of at least 3. Not necessarily involving helo's. Their training encompasses more than that.
June 18, 2008
10:57 a.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you...........What a way to piss away tax dollars!
June 18, 2008
11:07 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
milwife, we're talking about THIS type of exercise. The one you just accused me of being too self-absorbed to notice has been going on for years.
That's a pretty insulting statement to level at someone - and I assume you would only make it if it was indeed a fact that THESE kinds of exercises have been going on IN THE CITY OF DENVER for years. Where I lived and worked for years until just recently.
I bet you don't even live anywhere near Denver...
June 18, 2008
11:11 a.m.
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Eli writes:
MTS,
You are without a doubt entitled to criticize how the military is used. Also, there's nothing wrong with people complaining about these training exercises happening in the city. This is their home, after all, and the residents of Denver are absolutely entitled to voice their opinion about it.
That said, with all due respect you are extremely ignorant regarding how the military operates and the way it trains. I can't say for sure without doing more research, but from experience my instinct is to say that this training was scheduled before the DNC was even planned to be in Denver.
Snake pilot detailed above the reasons for training in an actual city environment as opposed to a range. The only thing anybody here has to base their fears on regarding the DNC is unfounded fears arising from coincidence. You and the others here are jumping to conclusions.
June 18, 2008
11:12 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
USMC_SNAKE_PILOT......... you said it all in your post. That was excellent and I can't agree more, but there are still fear mongers here who believe anything the government does is somehow questionable, or if the military is involved, it must somehow be related to martial law and cracking down on the citizens. My, how stupid some of these people are. They aren't living in reality, just a made up world of their fears coming true.
Thanks for that post, it's good to hear from someone who's been directly involved with training like this repudiate the ignorance being posted.
June 18, 2008
11:18 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
mytwosense...... I don't care who authorized it, because I know the reasons for why it's being done (and I have more important things to worry about), and USMC_SNAKE_PILOT expanded very well on it in his post. If you want to live in a bubble and be afraid of anything the military does, so be it. You're probably the type that always wants to point fingers at someone, and when you're to blame, you don't take responsibility. Finger pointers are pathetic.
June 18, 2008
11:20 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, if you're going to call someone ignorant, give them a little more to work with than just your "instincts"!
Furthermore, I've made no assertions whatsoever about how the military performs it's training. I've simply questioned the particular training that is going on now in the City of Denver, specifically:
1) Who authorized it?
2) Where are the funds coming from to pay for it?
3) Why weren't residents given a heads up that deafeningly loud helicopters would be buzzing pass their residential windows like the Thought Police? (ok, so I'm adding a new twist to that question)
4) Why is this particular exercise only now being done in the city of Denver, so long after 9/11?
I guess am "ignorant" about the answers to these questions, otherwise I wouldn't be asking them.
You and milwife2 seem to think it's somehow wrong to ask such questions. You can't give a thoughtful answer in response without disparaging me for asking them. Why is that?
June 18, 2008
11:26 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
cwilly: "If you want to live in a bubble and be afraid of anything the military does, so be it. You're probably the type that always wants to point fingers at someone, and when you're to blame, you don't take responsibility. Finger pointers are pathetic."
Hey pal, if you want to live in a bubble and trust your government always has your security in mind, go right ahead. And by the way, the kind of people who definitely DON'T take responsibility for themselves are the kind who NEVER ask any questions. They just trust that the powers-that-be have everything taken care of.
June 18, 2008
11:26 a.m.
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milwife2 writes:
your right I live no where near Denver. I live where it goes on everyday and as I write this there are the wonderful sounds of freedom right over me. I thought ur issue was knowing where ur tax dollars went period. So its the noise factor? Which is it? U think all military training should be on bases. Guess we will have to increase taxes to pay for the mock cities so these guys can train to save ur butt if and when terror strikes our soil again. City of new York has no problem hosting my rooftop cowboys.
June 18, 2008
11:32 a.m.
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ArmyRangermom writes:
Milwife2 - My hats off to you and your husband, as well as my prayers. God bless all our military, and may they all come home safe and sound......
June 18, 2008
11:34 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
treetop, I'm not interested in what Prescott Bush did almost a century ago (he wasn't a big political figure, huh?). You make it sound like the Bush family has been responsible for every war since WWII. I have questions...... what do you think of the fact Joseph Kennedy had mafia ties, and then his son was President and another son was running for President, so would that mean somehow the mafia was in the White House or the White House was in the mafia? What do you think of the fact that Saddam Hussein tailored his Baath Party after the Nazi Party, and his Revolutionary Guard after SS Stormtroopers, and then carried out his rule like the Nazis did under Hitler? But we shouldn't have done anything about him and his mass murders/genocide, right? So, by GWB going to war against Hussein the the NAZI-like party he ruled, how can you make sense of it? Another conspiracy theory? How many Kurdish citizens were killed by Hussein's chemical weapons? The same chemical weapons that can be labeled as weapons of mass destruction.
Anyway, you're getting off topic and now I'll go back to it. I'm okay with the military training like this, I'm not afraid of them, are you?
June 18, 2008
11:34 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"Eli, if you're going to call someone ignorant, give them a little more to work with than just your "instincts"!"
Ignorant doesn't mean "stupid", MTS. It was not an insult. It means you are uninformed on matters related to the military, and you are. Otherwise you would not have claimed earlier that the Active Denial System (the "microwave" weapon you were referring to earlier) "fries" skin. Again, being ignorant regarding military affairs is not an insult. Most civilians are.
Google is your friend. According to CBS and the DOD, my "instincts" were right on the money. DOD says the exercise was planned "years ago".
Funds for training exercises comes from the Department of Defense, therefore this exercise was funded by the Department of Defense.
Regarding notification, it looks like a case of the right hand not talking to the left. Why this is surprising to you, I have no idea. This kind of thing happens with government bureaucracies all the time.
According to Mayor Hickenlooper:
"The federal agencies sponsoring the ongoing multi-agency training in Denver agreed to make the proper notifications regarding the exercises to prevent surprise and inconvenience to Denver residents. There seems to have been a misunderstanding about the reach and scope of these notifications, and they did not occur in the manner expected by the City."
June 18, 2008
11:38 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
milwife2: "your right I live no where near Denver."
Exactly. So where do you get off telling people who do that they're too "self absorbed" to notice these particular exercises have been going on here for years?
Obviously, you can't let your general opinions keep you from noticing we're not talking about a general subject. We're talking about what is particularly happening right now in Denver, not training exercises in general.
Anyone that can actually read should be able to grasp that, but then again, I'm dealing with someone who says "ur." Perhaps the discussion is over your head and thus, being drowned out by those "sounds of freedom" you also hear up there.
June 18, 2008
11:44 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, I did the research on the microwave weapon, too, and it can result in blisters and second-degree burns.
Also, would you be kind enough to provide links to the actual places where the DOD and CBS state this exercise was planned years ago? I'm curious why the Rocky Mountain News hasn't included this bit of information in their article. Also, those are huge websites and a provided link would be an appreciated courtesy.
And no, I'm not surprised by any communication screw up among multiple agencies, but on the other hand, I don't necessarily believe this is truly the case of what's happening in this instance. There seems to be a shroud of secrecy about the whole thing, including none of the agencies involved - at least according to this article - taking responsibility as the authorizing party for this exercise.
June 18, 2008
11:47 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
SASQUATCH: "Several Blackhawks and Bradleys have been equiped with the much feared "Crap Cannon" or "Brown Note" that is an ultrasonic device that produces uncontrolled bowel movements and spontaneous defication by the targeted victim. The R-68 crowd knows that they have been targeted by the much feared CC and they are terrorified.
I hope that the results are viewed on TV. This is going to be something to see."
And I hope that your sociopathic tendencies are sufficiently exercised enough by posting your evil wishes against humanity on Internet forums rather than playing them out somehow in real life.
June 18, 2008
11:49 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
mytwosense, I'll trust that my government has my security in mind, but not blindly. I don't fear them like you do. And I definitely don't fear the military that you're afraid of.
I'll help answer some of the questions you've asked:
1) Who authorized it? -The military as part of special ops training, and you're free to call them and demand to know who specifically makes these decisions for Denver and other cities where training occurs, or has happened in the past.
2) Where are the funds coming from to pay for it? -Taxpayers, as everything the military has or does is paid for by taxpayers (DUH).
3) Why weren't residents given a heads up that deafeningly loud helicopters would be buzzing pass their residential windows like the Thought Police? (ok, so I'm adding a new twist to that question) -Stupid ending to your question, but to answer the first part, read where the article says the military passes it onto the police department and the police can inform citizens. Guess the DPD failed on that, but on the other hand, do you want to be informed when the news helicopters are buzzing around downtown as well?
4) Why is this particular exercise only now being done in the city of Denver, so long after 9/11? -What, you want Denver to be first on the list or last, and does there need to be a timeline where on the one hand it's okay and on the other, it's not? What about the other cities where this same exact training takes place? Do you think technological advances might make it more appropriate to train for certain situations now than in the past? You should watch the Military Channel sometime, instead of one of those women's channels, and you might have a better idea of what the military does, or has.
June 18, 2008
11:50 a.m.
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RUKidding writes:
I can not beleive so many people still live in fear of an attack. Really? You have a better chance of getting hit by a bus crossing the street.
June 18, 2008
noon
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Eli writes:
http://www.9news.com/news/article.asp...
http://cbs4denver.com/local/terror.ex...
http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/s...
From the link directly above:
"The centerpiece of this program is training. Currently, the federal government offers a number of training opportunities to state and local agencies on different aspects of responding to a WMD attack. From these training pieces we are building a multiyear training program designed to provide a basic response capability for first responders for the 120 most populated cities. This is an interagency effort. However, because of the extensive expertise possessed by our military personnel, DoD will take the lead on a significant portion of the training."
June 18, 2008
noon
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milwife2 writes:
no your not your talking about not knowing where your tax dollars are going. Your just using the helicopter noise as a front. And I can say the things I have because I do live near where this generally occurs. Are you so niave to think that another 9/11 couldnt happen in Denver? Wouldn't you want them to have the knowledge of your city? You cannot have your freedom of protection without the training. If you dont like it move to another country. by the way I am typing on a very small keyboard so being able to use the least amount of letters is easier while still getting the point acrossed. I'll be sure to have my husband protect Denver last when terror strikes your city
June 18, 2008
12:01 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
cwilly: "You should watch the Military Channel sometime, instead of one of those women's channels, and you might have a better idea of what the military does, or has."
--laughs--
Ok, I'll take you up on that sometime. (Actually, I get no channels on my TV because I'm not hooked up for cable.)
Anyway, you state that "the military as part of special ops training" authorized this particular exercise. My understanding is that the Department of Defense oversees the military, yet at least one party in this article is claiming the Department of Justice authorized the exercise. Other parties contradict this, but don't state definitively who.
And yes, I know our tax dollars pay for everything at the end of the day, but are these exercises being funded from the $50 million dollar grant that the feds gave to the City of Denver for DNC security and support? If this isn't an exercise related to the DNC, the mayor should be able to share with City Residents exactly where that money is going...and he hasn't.
June 18, 2008
12:03 p.m.
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DisabledVet writes:
Why don't they deploy down by the Mexican border? That is where we need them the most. We could use them to stop some of the 13+ million illegal aliens from taking over our country!
June 18, 2008
12:08 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
milwife2: "Are you so niave to think that another 9/11 couldnt happen in Denver? Wouldn't you want them to have the knowledge of your city?"
Of course. But gleaning this knowledge of our city seven years after the biggest terrorist attack on American soil seems to be a bit tardy on their part.
milwife2: "I'll be sure to have my husband protect Denver last when terror strikes your city."
I really don't have anything to add to your comment here. It just sounded so petty and idiotic I had to repost it let it stand for itself.
June 18, 2008
12:09 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"And I can say the things I have because I do live near where this generally occurs."
Ft. Bragg, by chance?
June 18, 2008
12:18 p.m.
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milwife2 writes:
as yours have sounded. Somehow your need to know outweighs those of every other tax payer including myself when it is my family in harms way everyday. Thank u steel I will certainly pass it on. Thank god for people like you. As far as Eli. No its not Bragg. But I did live there before as a teen. And what would the difference make if it was? Just curious.
June 18, 2008
12:20 p.m.
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CVDenver writes:
Answer to the questions,
The Department of Defense authorized the training operation.
The money to fund it comes from the DoD budget, which is part of the Federal budget, which is funded by taxpayer dollars. Just like Medicaid and funding for the Arts.
The DoD passes the information on to the municipalities, who are responsible for notifying the public. Someone with the City of Denver dropped the ball on this one. The City, not the Police Department.
And finally, this is not the first time these maneuvers have been run, Denver is not the first city they've been done in (just last week the Boston Metro area had similar training operations.)
If terrorist activity is going to take place in urban settings, (and we know it is because that is what has happened throughout the world. The terrorists do not attack Farmer Joe's dairy farm. They attack Tel Aviv and Jerusalem...and Atlanta and New York and Oklahoma City) then the people we expect to respond in those cases need to train in urban settings.
When these things happen, as well as when natural disasters occur, what do you want to have happen? Who do you want to have respond? I'm serious, please tell me what your ideal action plan is. Is your solution truly to have the unorganized masses respond to these situations? Are you that naive? Has it crossed your mind at all that the result would be pure an utter chaos? Look at the riots in L.A. Look at the flooding in New Orleans. Lack of planning and response training caused the disaterous results. Mob mentality does not solve problems, it makes them worse.
Try thinking things through with a little cause and effect and rational reasoning before you say "The government is coming to take over. OMG! OMG!" Please! Get a grip and try living in reality.
June 18, 2008
12:24 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Having "knowledge of the city" is irrelevant and has nothing to do with this training. The benefit of something like this is to go into an area that you *don't* know, for that very reason. Training on MOUT ranges has limited benefit. After you do it so many times, you know the course. You know where the windows are, the doors, etc.
In a real event, it will not be in an area you are intimately familiar with. That is the benefit of training in areas that you do not know.
Milwife,
Just wondering because I had the pleasure of being trained by some of the Delta guys in Iraq. They're out of Ft. Bragg.
June 18, 2008
12:26 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
milwife2: "Somehow your need to know outweighs those of every other tax payer including myself when it is my family in harms way everyday."
Yep, and I'm proud of that persistent need to know. I consider it a characteristic of being an active, engaged, involved citizen of this country.
Also, I find people who have an aversion to asking questions generally are afraid the answer could be something they don't want to know, whether they can admit that to themselves of not.
June 18, 2008
12:27 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
mytwosense, I was taking a guess on how uninformed you are, but now I know. You don't have a clue about what our military does.
The DNC is short on that $50 million, since they can't get enough money from supporters. It's not funded by the grant from the feds, it's a separate operation, as are every other training exercises like this. Do you think all of training exercises by the military across the U.S. are funded by the DNC grant? So the answer on your critical need to know question is call the Mayor's office and ask for an explanation about the DNC funds.
June 18, 2008
12:27 p.m.
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nuclied writes:
Got to say these stories are what make these posts so exciting...all the nut job conspiracy theorists come out of the woodwork! So lets see:
We know that terrorism is a huge threat to this country and we need to train our troops to be prepared to come save your tree huggin booty in a crisis. If that means a few helicopters flying over my rockies game, cool.
Should our troops have recognized and trained for a threat prior to 9-11? Yes, but man I am thankful they are stepping up and training now.
Is the timing a coincidence to the upcoming convention? Perhaps, but so what. It needed to be done so why not be prepared. Let us all hope that petchuli oil and granola will be our greatest threats during the convention (nope, not a republican either!).
Do I find it funny that every thread post has an (insert comment about illegal immigration here)? Terribly. I'm a big supporter of immigration reform, but in this story, really?
Am I glad you are all here commenting, discussing, and being active? Absolutley!
June 18, 2008
12:30 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
milwife2, my thanks to you and your husband. For your sacrifices, for everything. If I could thank you both in person, I would.
June 18, 2008
12:35 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
Big_D writes:
"Thinking of Ohio, I bet they could use these guys to help with the flood there and in Iowa. I would think a helicopter may be of some use in a flood. Back to looking cool in Denver I guess, just a drill."
Too bad their funding isn't targeted to that sort of thing.
June 18, 2008
12:38 p.m.
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meatwad writes:
terrorisms still a threat here?
June 18, 2008
12:41 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Cwilly: "mytwosense, I was taking a guess on how uninformed you are, but now I know. You don't have a clue about what our military does."
Why? Because I'm not glued to the Military Channel?
You're no expert, you're just a starry-eyed groupie.
Cwilly: "Do you think all of training exercises by the military across the U.S. are funded by the DNC grant?"
There you go with your wild interpretations again.
June 18, 2008
12:46 p.m.
Suggest removal
freetuza writes:
These helicopters have been flying around for more than two days. For probably the last 4 weeks they have appeared, sometimes on weekends and sometimes in the evenings, over my neighborhood just east of downtown. One weekend with company over and outside, friends were stunned to see the ongoing trips these copters made for over 2 hours...and it was all because of the noise that we first noticed them. Too noisy sometimes to carry on a conversation. Oh, this has been weeks...not just a couple days. Wonder how the city just got the notification of this week's activities and not the previous ones?
June 18, 2008
12:49 p.m.
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milwife2 writes:
well you know where he will be the rest of the week. How about a big wave and a round off applause. Thank you for your words! I thank my husband and his team everytime he comes home. Especially safely.
June 18, 2008
12:53 p.m.
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milwife2 writes:
sorry but it was not them.
June 18, 2008
12:55 p.m.
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monkeydollmaker writes:
I think the interesting thing to watch here will be how the Hillary for president protesters, the "We Were Robbed Group" will interact with the anti-leftist and anti-communist demonstrators, Will they mix in or stand apart? And then you have the other radical group "The Downtrodden Blacks", Obama supporters who want their reparations and to send Whitey to the back of the bus. The idiots who think this whole thing isn't going to turn into an ugly nationwide race riot haven't put on their little thinking caps. The rev. Wright issue is NOT going away!
June 18, 2008
1:10 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Oh, and about your research regarding the Active Denial System, MTS. It's not that I doubt you've read about it. I'm sure you have. What I'm questioning is where you got your information.
June 18, 2008
1:12 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli: "Having "knowledge of the city" is irrelevant and has nothing to do with this training. The benefit of something like this is to go into an area that you *don't* know, for that very reason."
Duh. Your point here - if there is one - is irrelevant. Did anyone say that training should only be done in cities they're already familiar with?
One of the points that's *actually* at hand here is why it's taking them seven years after 9/11 to perform such an exercise in Denver.
June 18, 2008
1:16 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, I actually went to a lot of sources, including Fox News, the Houston Chronicle, and other major media outlets that posted information on the weapon. I think the original story originated from an AP article and was subsequently reposted on a lot of sites.
June 18, 2008
1:19 p.m.
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Susancnw writes:
Hey Chuckie, school teacher. It's the sound of freedom and protection ya'll. Appreciate it and give them a wave and thumbs up.
June 18, 2008
1:20 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"Duh. Your point here - if there is one - is irrelevant. Did anyone say that training should only be done in cities they're already familiar with?"
No, MTS. Read the rest of the post. You completely missed the point.
June 18, 2008
1:27 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
By the way, Eli, have you ever considered what would happen if whoever is directing this weapon at a victim chooses not to stop doing so? How long could someone endure such pain, and how long before it really did start causing a physical burn? What if that person has no way to escape from the situation because he or she is surrounded by other people?
Here is a little blurb on the ADS weapon from the Sandia Labs, and you should note the level of injury is directly controlled by the level of intensity and duration of its application:
"This intense heating sensation stops only if the individual moves out of the beam’s path or the beam is turned off. The sensation caused by the system has been described by test subjects as feeling like touching a hot frying pan or the intense radiant heat from a fire. Burn injury is prevented by limiting the beam’s intensity and duration."
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/new...
June 18, 2008
1:32 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, your point appears to be that it's useless to train in areas one is already familiar with because a terrorist attack is likely to be in a place that you're not. Is that not your point? And if so, what does it have to do with what we're discussing? No one is stating that the element of surprise shouldn't be addressed by training in as many unfamiliar places as possible.
If that is not your point, yes, please clarify what exactly it is.
June 18, 2008
1:32 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"By the way, Eli, have you ever considered what would happen if whoever is directing this weapon at a victim chooses not to stop doing so?"
Abuse and/or excessive force should be dealt with on a case by case basis.
"How long could someone endure such pain, and how long before it really did start causing a physical burn?"
Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you.
"What if that person has no way to escape from the situation because he or she is surrounded by other people?"
MTS, I'm trying to take your questions and points seriously. Really, I am. But this is absolutely idiotic. We could come up with a billion different "what if" scenarios. What if this does happen? What is your point? Should we use bullets for crowd control instead, based on the chance that we could possibly have a situation where "someone can't escape"?
June 18, 2008
1:36 p.m.
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CVDenver writes:
Mytwosense, you are underestimating the power of civil litigation. Sandia Labs' blurb about the device itself is a description of prototype (as is all the information available on it). Corporations have teams, sometimes hundreds, of attorneys thinking about things like Intellectual Property and liability. There is a lot of information not available to the public about the device = intellectual property. And the corporation is not going to leave itself open to class action lawsuits because a renegade cop decides to keep the burners on too long. Those protections are/will be built into the device. The *real* end product, if it is ever made available to the public, or police agencies for civilian use, is not going to be able to literally "cook" the "bad guys" right there on the street.
Again, where is common sense in this forum?
June 18, 2008
1:39 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, you seem to be taking the position the ADS weapon doesn't cause burns. You are challenging my claim that it does, or at least, can.
As usual, you are making absolute assumptions, and refusing to consider a multitude of very likely factors. I find this an all-too-common trait on these forums.
Well, you can dismiss these factors as "idiotic" if you like, but thinking people actually give consideration to such an issue.
Especially if the issue at hand is a weapon that very likely will be used on US citizens in the name of "crowd dispersal."
June 18, 2008
1:42 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"Eli, your point appears to be that it's useless to train in areas one is already familiar with because a terrorist attack is likely to be in a place that you're not. Is that not your point?"
No. I was addressing the exchange between yourself and milwife2 regarding training to become familiar with the area.
That is not what is being done here. Becoming familiar with the area is not the purpose of this kind of training.
The point of training in areas you're not familiar with is not so you can learn the layout of that specific area. The point is to develop your skills when operating in an unfamiliar area.
In the real world, when a situation arises, odds are that it will be in an area that you have never been to before. That is why it is beneficial to train in unfamiliar areas. Not so you can learn the specific area, but to develop and maintain the skills necessary to operate in an area you have never been to before when a real-world situation occurs.
When you know the area, as you do with a MOUT range that you have gone through countless times, your movements become habit. Nothing changes. You know where every door, every window, every target, etc. is on that particular range. Muscle memory takes over, and it is easy to become complacent. Clearing buildings and rooms is a perishable skill, as is the ability of those pilots to fly in urban settings. The ability to improvise and adapt to the situation at hand needs to be practiced constantly, and the best way to practice that is to train in different environments as often as possible. Again, not to learn the layout of the city and build up your skills in that specific environment, but for the sake of keeping your training unpredictable and therefore more realistic.
June 18, 2008
1:45 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
CVDenver, you seem to be overestimating the consequences against cops who are too violent with citizens. Yeah, you have the occasional conviction, but a lot of times they get off scot-free. I've even seen on these forums people cheering on the cops in articles about police brutality.
And unless you work for the companies developing these devices or will be using one of these weapons yourself, you really can't say for sure what "built in" protections will be in place in these devices.
I've never seen such a bunch of trusting sheep! You people should be grateful for those like me who DO keep asking questions, despite all the ridicule that comes with it. My friend, it's those very questions that make sure such protections are built in, and if they aren't, it's my questions as to why they weren't that will make sure they're added.
There is a saying I heard recently: "The world will write your life's script if you let it." This applies to all of you who are so content to ask no questions, go with the flow, and hope Big Brother keeps you all safe and warm.
Count me out, because I couldn't live with myself if I had such a dependent mentality.
June 18, 2008
1:48 p.m.
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Body writes:
Are the helicopters still an issue? I can't believe our media organizations are still making this front-page news and we're still discussing it.
Are we as a city and a state really this hard up for something happening here that we have to make a huge deal out of a military exercise?
For all you loud mouths complaining about who authorized it or how inconvenient it is having the helicopters flying over and around us.....get real and get your heads out of the sand. The military is training to protect US, and that, for better or for worse, includes you nutjobs. If, God forbid, there was a terrorist attack here, you'd be the same people complaining about how the government wasn't prepared, how they should have seen it coming and taken steps to combat it, etc.
You can't have it both ways. You want to be protected? Let these brave men train and take the steps necessary to be prepared if we should need protecting. If that means a little noise in and around our neighborhoods (and they've flown above my neighborhood) for a few days, so be it.
Please tell me we in Denver have more going for us than to beat this (non)issue to death.
June 18, 2008
1:51 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Fine, Eli...you're the self-appointed expert here, I assume you've done these trainings yourself. But I have a question. Why didn't you address your point to milwife, who asked me if I didn't want them to have knowledge of this city?
June 18, 2008
1:53 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"it's those very questions that make sure such protections are built in"
The self-interest of the makers of such a weapon and the police departments using it is a much more effective method of ensuring those protections than your questions, MTS. Not that I'm saying "don't ask them". Have at it. I'm simply saying that self-interest on the part of the manufacturer and law enforcement agency is a much more effective motivator.
June 18, 2008
2 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, a lot of that "self-interest" stems from knowing such questions will be asked if those protections aren't built in. Yes, they would want to avoid being sued (and ten to one you believe in "tort reform"!). They wouldn't have to worry about being sued if this country turned into a land of sheep who never demanded accountability from its government. Part of demanding accountability is being an engaged citizen who asks a lot of questions, even if their fellow citizens try to shout them down for doing so.
June 18, 2008
2:04 p.m.
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me2 writes:
Think back to 9-11 and answer this. How would a fleet of helicopters have made any difference in that scenario?
If the purpose of these exercises is to confront Islamic radicals in American cities fine, but since the terrorists might attack shopping centers or use suicide bombers, I just can`t see the choppers being much use in these situations. We already have police helicopters, what would the military ones do that can`t already be done?
June 18, 2008
2:08 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
me2, I was wondering if anyone would ever raise the issue of how exactly a fleet of helicopters is going to stop one determined suicide bomber from blowing up a city block. I can certainly see how such exercises might be useful in training with the aftermath of such an attack, but we have posters on this forum telling us they are to protect us from one.
June 18, 2008
2:15 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"Fine, Eli...you're the self-appointed expert here, I assume you've done these trainings yourself."
I am not a "self-appointed expert". I am a trained military professional with a year of live combat experience, which would probably have been more had I not been injured. I've cleared hundreds of buildings and rooms. I know how to train and have done very extensive training for fighting in urban areas. Do you call your car mechanic a "self-appointed expert"?
"Why didn't you address your point to milwife, who asked me if I didn't want them to have knowledge of this city?"
I was addressing both of you with that post. I should have clarified that.
June 18, 2008
2:22 p.m.
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temurlan writes:
There is a great video taken from a news chopper showing them in action. It's the second video from the left. It gets really interesting half way though the 10min video.
http://cbs4denver.com/local/terror.ex...
June 18, 2008
2:40 p.m.
DisabledVet writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
June 18, 2008
3 p.m.
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Eli writes:
DisabledVet,
Not cool, not cool at all. Don't allow yourself to be drug down to that level.
June 18, 2008
3:06 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
Eli, I was thinking the same thing about DisabledVet's comment to artstarrz. Artstarrz seems to have that effect on some people. He is one that needs to be ignored.
June 18, 2008
3:15 p.m.
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meatwad writes:
heh heh heh....hey....hows it goin?
June 18, 2008
3:26 p.m.
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JSeifert writes:
Everyone give up on Angle and people that like, You can not change Socialist minds. They hate the Military , they hate the police, they hate everything that Americans believe in. They want to live in some EURO dream land and run through the fields of flowers why everyone else actually has to do the hard work in the real world.
To the Military personnel THANK YOU and SF. To the people that support them THANK YOU. To the people that hate them DIE IN COMMUNIST HELL!
June 18, 2008
4:10 p.m.
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bigjking69 writes:
I have never seen a bigger group of whiners! When we get hit again by some sort of Islamic radicals every one of you will be begging for the government to come save you and your family, and asking "why didn't you do more?" But heaven forbid that the military did any training prior to get ready for a terrorist scenario. It would be a shame to interrupt your happy hour or you watching Desperate House Wives, for three nights of training.
Another thing, for those paranoid nuts who always scream posse comitatus!!!! The military only gets involved when all civilian resources are incapable of handling the situation. That decision resides with the individual state. Those who know the constitution the best are those who protect it. Perhaps you should join the military before you start knocking it.
When did Americans turn into a bunch of spoiled brats? Ask the British how that turned out for them?
June 18, 2008
4:16 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
mytwosense.... you are one paranoid person. What next, the world coming to an end or something? Somebody with their hands on the trigger going off yet? Geez, using your logic, every time a fighter jet takes off from Buckley, you must be running for cover. I think the drugs fried your brain.
To answer your post, when I watch TV, I watch the Military Channel at times, but I also watch Discovery, National Geographic, Science Channel, History, History International (it had a piece on the Revolutionary War and George Washington last night, and lo and behold, George Washington is the one person responsible for forming the Army after he was annointed the General to lead the Revolution), along with HBO, Showtime, ESPN, TNT, USA and the list goes on. Point being, I don't sit glued to the Military Channel, but nice try. Come up with something better than really weak assumptions.
Starry-eyed groupie, huh? For women I am, lol, but another brain fart on your part. I get into history, along with sports, science, humor and so on. What you call groupie is what the rest of us would call diverse interests. You should try it sometime and get out of the fog warping your head into delusions.
And the last part, you don't get sarcasm, do you? I feel sorry for you.
One other thing, I'm a native and I've lived in the Denver area my entire life, so don't bother pulling that out of your hole.
June 18, 2008
4:24 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
rememberthis, do you know about the PanAm flight going down in Lockerbie, Scotland? What about the trains in Spain? I think you underestimate what capabilities terrorists have, just like there were people that underestimated what the Japanese were capable of in the late 1930's and early 1940's.
June 18, 2008
4:32 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
big_d, the 1993 WTC attack wasn't from a plane, so would you explain how anyone could be ceratin that terrorists would fly planes into them, and the Pentagon also?
The 1993 attack was from the underground levels of the WTC with vans holding explosives.
June 18, 2008
4:36 p.m.
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jtriska writes:
You are all a bunch of f'n sheep. Oh the big bad terrorist is out to get me and my freedom. Wake up pHu ckers it's the government that's out to get your freedom. And yes, CT, if given the order the military would dust my hood in a minute. Are you denying that fact?
June 18, 2008
4:40 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
rememberthis, it was both towers of the WTC that fell, after each burned for awhile. The resulting collapse caused another closeby building to fall along with damaging several other buildings in the nearby area. See, this is how it works. The fire burned at a high temperature, fueled by the jet fuel, and the steel girders reach a point where they weaken. The kinetic energy of the floors collapsing where the jets impacted means the top floors, and their weight, pound down on the floors below them, and as more weight falls down on each of the floors, the buildings collapse. In simple enough terms, it's like dominoes.
Don't read more out of it than what's there.
June 18, 2008
4:44 p.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
I'm waiting to hear how flying pink elephants exist. Thanks for the laughs, but I'm outta here.
June 18, 2008
5:10 p.m.
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Eli writes:
RememberThis,
The conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 have been thoroughly debunked. Popular Mechanics did an extensive piece on this which eventually evolved into a book. It may be worth it for you to check it out.
http://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-My...
June 18, 2008
5:12 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Charles,
I don't recall any conservatives promoting ideas of martial law over training exercises 10 years ago.
Not saying it definitely didn't happen, but I certainly don't remember any prominent conservatives saying any such thing.
June 18, 2008
6:01 p.m.
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me2 writes:
I will try it again. In all the terrorist attacks on the western World, how would a fleet of choppers have changed the outcome?
In London, our embasies, The Cole, Spain, and 9-11. The only difference I can see is after the fact, if the terrorists are running around on the streets and can be shot from the air.
Once they go into buildings, then the pilots have to land and unload troops, who then need to run down people in an urban setting. Fine, but we haven`t had one of those anywhere. Of course the reverse happened in Mogadishu, there is a prime example of why helicopters are not the best forces to use in cities.
June 18, 2008
6:33 p.m.
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MUG2008 writes:
firefox-
you are compartmentalized.
you think you are helping Americans but in reality which you will never acknowledge is that you are assisting the enemy. You work for the Big Corporation USA GOV.
You are their arsenal on American people.
Will you shoot, tase or kick the legs out from underneath and then tackle an American who is protecting their home and family from invasion by F.E.M.A. or the Elite owned USA Government?
June 18, 2008
6:48 p.m.
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MUG2008 writes:
All this is B*LLSH*T. Everyone knows 9/11 was done by the BUSH and CHENEY SHOW. All this HOMELAND NAZI "DEVIL" CHERTOFF b*llsh*t is invasion of AMERICA! INTIMIDATION AND DEGRADATION.
Industrial Military Complex aim to use H.A.R.R.P. as weather manipulation (all the rain, tornadoes and earthquakes are manipulations capable by H.A.R.R.P.) to create seemingly natural disaster when in fact they are man made intentional destruction of American citizens property and food supply (harvests). THen the thugs go in and arrest you for being on your own property and confiscate your legally owned guns. They render you helpless and dependent on them. Just where they want you to be. A Helpless, penniless and dependent slave. They degrade you, harrass you and push you to brake one of their millions of RULES so they can cuff you and throw you into their prison system where you will never get out. DO NOT TRUST THE GOVERNMENT!
The Elite said they would create a food shortage and we are looking at their PLANNED destruction of American farm land and harvest.
June 18, 2008
6:50 p.m.
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MUG2008 writes:
“It is possible to fool all of the people all the time; when government and press cooperate.”
GEORGE SELDES (legendary investigative reporter, 1938)
“The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread… We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
JOHN SWINTON (former Chief of Staff New York Times in his toast to the New York Press Club. Quote1880)
“Those who manipulate the unseen mechanism of society constitute an Invisible Government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed; our minds molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested largely by men we have never heard of.”
EDWARD L. BERNAYS (Sigmund Freud’s nephew and the father of psyops, mass spin control and modern propaganda. Bernay’s techniques sold WWI to Americans thru the “Committee on Public Information”. Josef Goebbels as Hitler's Minister of Propaganda was an avid fan of Bernay's work for the Third Reich. Bernays partnered with William Paley to run CBS. Edward Bernay’s work was also the foundation for CIA mass media manipulation via “Operation Mockingbird”. Quote: Bernay’s book “Propaganda” published 1928)
“Our job is to give people not what they want, but what we decide they ought to have.”
RICHARD SALENT (President CBS “News” division 1961-64 & 1966-79 )
"News is what someone wants to suppress. Everything else is advertising".
REUVEN FRANK (President NBC “News” from 1968-1972 & 1982-1984)
“You could get a journalist cheaper than a good call girl, for a couple hundred dollars a month.”
PHILIP GRAHAM (editor of the Washington Post quoting his CIA operative source as he discussed the availability and prices of journalists willing to peddle CIA propaganda and cover stories. Quote 1991)
June 18, 2008
6:59 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"You might try opening your mind and watch "Loose Change"
I have.
June 18, 2008
7:04 p.m.
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natasha writes:
So, I don't know, it's like kind of weird that our government is totally lying to us. Like we don't know that this has sooo much to do with the DNC. Gag me with a spoon.
June 18, 2008
7:05 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"Once they go into buildings, then the pilots have to land and unload troops, who then need to run down people in an urban setting. Fine, but we haven`t had one of those anywhere."
Me2,
It's preferable to clear a building from the top down when possible. A real-world situation where this could have been applied would be the incident at the Beslan school.
In the case of a car bomb or something like that, you're right that this type of training would not apply. There are countless scenarios where "air assault" as it's called would not be a tactically sound thing to do. What is your point?
June 18, 2008
7:30 p.m.
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me2 writes:
Thanks Eli, well my point was a question really, if this is anti terrorist training, it is probably the least effective kind there is. House to house is reality, not air power over a city.
I just wonder who thought this up and what they hoped to accomplish.
I hope they don`t have any mishaps in those close quarters.
June 18, 2008
7:31 p.m.
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YoMamasMan writes:
This conversation has gone far beyond helicopter exercises. It has become political in nature, and subjective to say the least. On one side our military has made it possible to enjoy our 1st world comforts'. On the other hand our political leaders' have destroyed our economy and murdered thousands of America's youths'. My (again MY) view is that why don't we become isolutionalist? Let Europe deal with their own problems. Let the middle east enjoy the special hell they have created for themselves? Why is it sensible to continually drive up the price of oil (I bet the Texas Rangers were pretty expensive)? I loved(past tense)my Chevy Tahoe but my Qu**r Ford Focus sure does make the Mortgage payments easier to take. We should forget the middle east because they won't matter anymore if we push alt. energies (they just got a Toy to go 100 mph)
June 18, 2008
7:54 p.m.
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Eli writes:
As far as what they hope to accomplish, please see my 1:42 post for some of the benefits of this kind of training.
The same benefits described there, regarding training in unfamiliar areas, applies to the pilots as well. I've been on many, many missions involving helicopters in Iraq. They are quite useful in guerilla warfare, especially in urban areas.
Another example of successful use, albeit not by American forces, would be Operation Barras. Google it and you'll find a number of descriptions of the mission.
June 18, 2008
8:15 p.m.
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Esquire_Esquire writes:
U.S. Open Golf Champion Payne Stewart's private jet was intercepted within 5 minutes of non-responsiveness with air traffic control. Commercial airliners were joyriding through our airspace for 45 minutes AFTER planes had already crashed into WTC I&II.
Either a stand down was ordered, or the negligence was so gross that leaders should be on trial for negligent homicide.
If our government couldn't protect us on 9/11, they should be fired, not granted more power. Does a C.E.O. get a raise and more stock options after a colossal blunder?
Moreover, with our southern border as wide open as the legs of a French Quarter harlot, terrorists have had every opportunity to infiltrate this country and attack us en masse these past 7 years.
But nothing. The terrorist threat is completely overblown to keep people in a state of fear.
Fearful people are predictable. Happy and free people are creative and spontaneous - which is not ideal for the socialist central planners who have run this country for the past 8 years and beyond. Fearful behavior is predictable, glee is not.
June 18, 2008
9:10 p.m.
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GetReal writes:
Circa '73
"What's The Buzz, Tell Me What's A Happening"-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLFAyw...
Dig it.
June 18, 2008
10:25 p.m.
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NoCoptersHere writes:
This military training is absolutely sickening. It's bad enough my tax dollars from my $9.00/HR job have to go to murdering civilians in foreign countries, but now they have to train for the killings in my city? Get the military out of Iraq(Afghanistan and all the other countries we occupy to) and out of Denver.
June 18, 2008
10:32 p.m.
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NoCoptersHere writes:
Oh yeah and this is what our military is all about.
Protect our freedoms the military does not.
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/How_to_trai...
June 18, 2008
10:46 p.m.
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purplewolf writes:
How do we protest this?
June 18, 2008
11:56 p.m.
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The_Hat_Lady writes:
Funny thing about this? I heard about this through Yahoo Answers - I understand people were panicing, car alarms were all going off, even a few windows broke.
I like the apology - we're sorry we didn't tell you - too bad.
Typical city response.
Nice lie too about the DNC... are you telling me WorldCon(Denvention2008) needs that kind of security? Has George Takai become that valuable a national commodity?
June 19, 2008
4:19 a.m.
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purplewolf writes:
Also, if they are using Denver as a "training ground" does the city get some type financial reimbursement?
And as a Denver tax payer how much can I sue for mental distress?
June 19, 2008
6:58 a.m.
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Alive writes:
Those choppers are a symbol of security to me. Only the paranoid or our enemies should fear them.
But hey, that whole concept of security is just a "neocon" trick to take all your freedoms away isn't it? Isn't it just awful living in our repressive police state fascist society? Oh the suffering!
If only we could be like Iran. Now those people know how to party!
June 19, 2008
9:35 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
rememberthis........ why do you want me to go back to school? Do you need help with your homework? Sorry, but I think you're a lost cause. You can say all you want that three building collapsed, which is somewhat true, but only two had planes flown into them. The other collapsed when the WTC towers fell. Guess what, several other buildings in the vicinity had damage to them but they didn't collapse. Care to explain that? You can't dispute the facts.
I'd suggest you learn about building engineering and physics, then you might get it. It wasn't kerosene that caused the fire....... try jet fuel, highly flammable and it burns at a high temperature, higher than the fuel you put in your vehicle. Have you ever flown? I think you need to learn what is possible and what isn't. Did you know that a Boeing 707 was flown by a pilot that was able to do a barrel roll in it. Now tell us, since that IS a fact, what do you think is impossible? I'd also like your explanation as to how there was only a hole a few feet wide in the Pentagon? When a plane crashes into something, it doesn't leave an imprint of only a few feet. Now it was stupid of you to say that. What's your explanation for the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania? The one where the passengers decided to fight back, the one that has documented cell calls of what was happening? How does that fit in your deluded conspiracy theory? Once they found out other planes were being taken over and crashed into buildings, they took action to prevent the same with theirs. I'd not try to relate fantasy and pink elephants, because it tells us what's going on in your head.
Eli, thanks for the post after his rant. Even with the obvious proof in front of them, some people will believe what they want to believe.
June 19, 2008
9:44 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
AmaranthArticia, do that and you won't see the light of day again. Your firecrackers can't protect you after shooting "missiles" or "projectiles" in their direction.
June 19, 2008
10:03 a.m.
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Eli writes:
It's interesting to note how conspiracy theorists react when their conspiracies are challenged.
When it was suggested to RememberThis that he check out the arguments presented by Popular Mechanics, he won't even consider it. Popular Mechanics is immediately dismissed as not trustworthy, but the word of the "documentary" Loose Change is taken as gospel.
This is done while making the assumption that I have never seen Loose Change (which I have), an assumption based simply on the fact that I do not believe the conspiracy theory.
RememberThis, your arguments are based not on fact but on faith in the word of those who present the argument that you want to belive.
June 19, 2008
10:08 a.m.
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meatwad writes:
you guys feel better now? :P
June 19, 2008
10:48 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
Eli, good point. Documentaries can be slanted to decide whatever outcome the presenter wants.
June 19, 2008
1:50 p.m.
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Esquire_Esquire writes:
So does anyone have an answer as to why no fighter jets were able to make it to the Pennsylvania and Pentagon planes? They had over an hour. I guess there was too much confusion in Norad, right? Oh wait, Payne Stewart would have been shot down if he wasn't flying in the middle of no where, according to the Air Force. But known hijacked airliners got a free pass right over Washington. LOL
Not even the air defense weapons on the Pentagon itself seemed to function that day. Give me a break.
Conspiracy or not, the top brass of the military and the federal government should stand trial for negligent homicide.
Either through cold calculation or negligence they allowed this attack to happen.
Forget about the collapse of the towers - a convenient distraction to divide us and forget about the incompetence of our leaders on 9/11.
June 19, 2008
2:25 p.m.
Suggest removal
Eli writes:
Yes, RememberThis, I'm on the payroll.
I'm not sure where you got the idea about some claim of the towers being made entirely of aluminum and glass, as it is not in the Popular Mechanics article which you can find here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/techn...
However, the myth regarding melting steel is addressed.
But we know you won't look, because your arguments are faith-based and not fact-based. Choose to remain ignorant if you wish, as matters of faith are impossible to debate.
"You support the devils work"
Yet another matter of faith, RememberThis. The devil does not exist. I am not interested in your faith-based distorted version of reality. I am interested in hard fact only. You are lacking there.
June 19, 2008
2:28 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Esquire_Esquire,
On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked — the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.
Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.
June 19, 2008
2:54 p.m.
Suggest removal
Esquire_Esquire writes:
"Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them."
No excuse. After all the drama the past 30 years of plane hijackings it was deemed impossible for an american plane to be hijacked? What was the point of airline security,then?
Just proves my point that every last one of the military and political leadership should have been sacked after 9/11, not given more power. If the supposedly brightest minds didn't see airliners used as weapons, even though the declassified CIA project Northwoods proposed a similar false-flag operation 20 years prior, plus all the memos floating around about it in the months before - they should be fired and tried for negligent homicide.
June 19, 2008
3:01 p.m.
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jay writes:
it is the heighth of ignorance to try to claim that NORAD didn't consider the threat from hijacked airliners in the US.
apologistic ignorance.
June 19, 2008
3:23 p.m.
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Eli writes:
I never said they had never considered the possibility, jay. Another straw man argument.
Can we go ahead and lump you in with the crazy conspiracy theorists?
June 19, 2008
3:25 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Oh, and "heighth" isn't a word. I thought you were educated?
June 19, 2008
3:27 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Esquire,
Arguing incompetence is fair enough. On many levels I would agree. But the conspiracy theories are nothing short of idiotic and easily proven false.
June 19, 2008
4:05 p.m.
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Esquire_Esquire writes:
All the Gulf on Tonkin conspiracy theorists turned out correct.
9/11 is 'easily' proven false if you take liars at their word.
Unanswered 9/11 Miracles:
On the day of the hijackings the US Government is running drills with its Air Force where it is simulating "Multiple Hijackings of Aircraft" within the United States of America. This drill causes great confusion amongst Air Traffic Controllers as it provides a "Cover" for the real Hijackings. Without these drills it is very possible that the Aircraft that were hijacked could have been intercepted far earlier. Certainly one has to consider this some sort of "Miracle"
Surely "The hand of ???"
The Miracle
Months prior to the hijackings the US Government changes the rules of engagement for hijacked Aircraft. Now in order to send up planes to intercept, the approval of the Defense Secretary, one Donald Rumsfeld, is required. Unfortunately he goes missing for 30 minutes, on the morning of the attacks, again impeding the ability of intercepts to be flown. Not only this but on the day of those intercepts, supersonic US fighter aircraft that are scrambled suddenly have a top speed of only around 200 MPH.
Surely "The Hand Of ???"
The Miracle
The US President is on a pre-scheduled event in a school in Florida. The Government has no idea of how many Aircraft have been hijacked or what the targets of the hijackers are. Indeed, given that the president’s location that morning had been televised, the President himself might well be a target. Yet, rather then rush him to safety as they are trained ~ and expected ~ to do, the Secret Service is certain the President is not at risk. They let the President sit in the classroom and continue with his story about a pet goat for the next half hour ~ even after he was told the second tower was hit. A miracle of faith if anything.
Surely "The Hand of ???"
The Miracle
Five Israeli Citizens manage to be across the river from the WTC towers and are in place to film the planes crashing into the towers. Great is their Joy as they realize that the United States will certainly discover that Al Qaeda is the Culprit and this will lead to the destruction of Israel's many enemies. How they came to be there is certainly a miracle, and that the attack lead to the destruction of their arch enemies, the Iraqis, even more so. Why, after traces of explosives were detected their vans by bomb-sniffing dogs these men were inexplicably released by the police, only adds to this miracle. (They later admitted during an interview on Israeli television that they had been sent to the the United States “to document the event”, but no one asked them who sent them.)
June 19, 2008
4:07 p.m.
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jay writes:
still struggling with the strawman argument, eh, eli?
"Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats"
ignorance. apologistic ignorance.
June 19, 2008
6:34 p.m.
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purplewolf writes:
Ok. I'll play the game. The company the "Dancing Israelis" worked for was funded by the Federal Government.
http://www.fedspending.org/faads/faad...
June 19, 2008
9:34 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"Without these drills it is very possible that the Aircraft that were hijacked could have been intercepted far earlier."
You're big on theories but short on explanations. How would this have made a difference?
As for the other two, all I can say is you've GOT to be kidding. You are really, really reaching here. No sane person can take this kind of garbage seriously.
Jay,
Are you trying to make the case that NORAD was monitoring all air traffic in the United States as opposed to looking for outside threats? What point are you trying to make here? Was NORAD in on 9/11? Come on man, out with it. Throwing around the word "ignorance" does nothing to advance a point.
I've always known you to be a bit loony, but I never knew you to be a conspiracy theorist. I have to say, I am surprised.
June 20, 2008
10:12 a.m.
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Esquire_Esquire writes:
You ARE ignorant, Eli.
When your cherished delusions are shattered, you call it 'garbage'.
When someone questions your reality, they're 'insane'.
What is irrational about securing the President when America was "under attack?"
Do you have a Bachelor of Arts degree, because you surely do not possess the critical thinking skills of a scientist.
Get over yourself.
June 22, 2008
3:55 p.m.
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LibertyOrDeath writes:
To those who argue the military should be performing police functions, go back and read history and the reasons the Founding Fathers were fearful of a standing National military, and why, after reconstruction in 1878 Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act.
Furthermore, the increasingly militiarization of our civilian PDs should be of concern to everyone. For one thing it furthers the “us versus them” mentality of both civilians and PD. For those PDs that have the philosophy of “community policing” and who offer Civilian Police Academies, my hat off to you. For civilians living in such a community, go through the Academy and get to know your fellow citizens who are cops.
Secondly, increasing encroachments on all our freedoms, but especially Second Amendment rights (which protects ALL others) takes away not only our freedoms but also our RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITIES to protect ourselves; and further concentrates power and makes us dependent upon those in power. Exactly what our Founders warned us to be vigilant against.
With that in mind, to all you LEOs and active military, consider the following statement:
"I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government"
Your answer to this question will determine whether or not you and I are on the same side.
One in four U.S. Marines would be willing to fire upon American citizens in a government gun confiscation program, according to the results of a survey undertaken in 1995 at a Marine Corps base in southern California.
VERY DISTURBING!
Just Google “Combat Arms Survey” or the statement I asked you to consider (in quotes above), and read for yourself.
When I served on active duty, as did my father and brother – over 60 years combined – and as I continue to serve now in another capacity; I took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the US. That oath does not have an expiration date. My loyalty is to the Constitution first and foremost. I am sworn to uphold it against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. I pledged my allegiance to this Country - idealized in the Constitution - not it’s government, President, Congress, other authority, or any other ideology.
The fact that we are having this conversation indicates to me that there is no conspiracy. Otherwise, many of us would probably be fighting in a civil war right now.
Give some serous thought to the question and what side you're going to be on if it ever comes, though.
In the meantime, also be thankful we are not in a civil war and enjoy your liberties.
Relax people. But ALWAYS stay vigilant- KNOW and STAND UP for your rights.