Chopper alert came too late
By Alan Gathright, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published June 18, 2008 at 9:19 p.m.
Updated June 19, 2008 at 8:17 a.m.
Photo by Becky Alfrey © Special to The Rocky
Two Blackhawk and two Little Bird helicopters fly over Denver on Tuesday evening, June 17, 2008.
Photo by Glen Barber © The Rocky
Military choppers fly over Denver in training for the war on terror
Video: Military helicopters continue to train in Denver. Watch »
Denver city and U.S. military officials said Wednesday that the public should have been notified before this week's counterterrorism helicopter exercises, which have rattled windows and residents' nerves.
But all sides stressed the benefit of the military Special Operations commandos training with Denver police and fire teams for a potential terrorism threat in a "realistic urban environment."
"We're very, very pleased and honored to have the Special Operations unit here," Katherine Archuleta, a senior advisor to Mayor John Hickenlooper, said in a speaker phone interview that included a military spokesman.
"We think that the training that has been going on in the last few days ... has been very, very positive, not only for our own community but also for the police department and fire department and the Special Operations unit," Archuleta added.
Lt. Steve Ruh, a spokesman for the Special Operations Command, said that the team has learned that it pays to communicate with the public and city leaders before sending black choppers with armed commandos.
"We will do a much better job with our protocol and coordinating with the city before we come in next time," Ruh said.
Archuleta added: "We've talked about how we can help in changing the way you reach out to the community in other cities."
The confusion began when four military choppers began flying over the city Monday night, swooping low over houses and downtown high-rises and repeatedly circling Coors Field during a Colorado Rockies game.
Soon police dispatchers were getting calls from people wondering what was going on.
Denver police Lt. Ron Saunier, who was briefed a week earlier by the military, said the military asked police Monday to "respond to inquiry only." So Saunier said he provided a "very generic statement" to police dispatchers in case the public called.
"Obviously that wasn't enough," Saunier said.
Part of the challenge is that military commandos are covert by nature, to protect their personnel and conceal their tactics, Ruh said.
He said that Special Operations teams have done low-profile training successfully in other cities without news releases and briefings.
A 1997 Washington Post article said the Special Operations Command had conducted at least 21 such exercises in U.S. cities, including Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas and Seattle over three years.
"In city after city, the exercises have drawn fire from frightened residents who are not told beforehand that the roaring helicopters flying in circles several hundred feet overhead late at night ... are trying to get as close as possible to the buildings they appear about to crash into," the Post reported.
Concern over this week's exercises in Denver prompted the mayor's office to issue a joint statement with the Defense Department on Tuesday night suggesting the military hadn't heeded the city's request months earlier give the public proper warning before the exercise.
"The federal agencies sponsoring the ongoing multi-agency training in Denver agreed to make the proper notifications regarding the exercises to prevent surprise and inconvenience to Denver residents," the statement said. "There seems to have been a misunderstanding about the reach and scope of these notifications, and they did not occur in the manner expected by the city.
"Although these exercises are in no way connected to the upcoming Democratic National Convention, Denver officials were well aware that there would be heightened sensitivity to an exercise such as this because of its proximity to the Convention," the statement continued.
Mike McDevitt, a professor specializing in political communication at the University of Colorado at Boulder, said it was hard to understand why the military and city wouldn't give advance warning. Especially given that people would notice the noisy night chopper flights.
"From a PR 101 perspective, it seems clear that this has been mishandled," he said. "It seems like such an obvious P.R. call to work with local officials and then local officials issue a press release ... to let people know what was happening."
Ultimately, not informing people did just what city and military leaders wanted to avoid — "Fuel speculation about a connection to the Democratic National Convention," McDevitt said.
If you have photos or videos of the helicopters in action, please e-mail to photoed@rockymountainnews.com
June 17, 2008
5:18 a.m.
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AA_Cunningham writes:
Helicopters were Army MH-60 Black Hawks and MH-6 MELBs.
June 17, 2008
6:09 a.m.
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Vector049 writes:
Where was this big bad military on Sep 11, 2001?
June 17, 2008
6:34 a.m.
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Art writes:
Just wait til they start practicing the strafing runs for the Dem convention.
June 17, 2008
6:39 a.m.
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youngman writes:
What do they mean it has nothing to do with the DNC....yeah right!
just like the cutting down of all the trees by the Pepsi Center...nothing to do with the "Green" DNC
Don't frighten the masses.....or tell them the truth
the messiah is a commin
June 17, 2008
6:58 a.m.
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Firefox writes:
Hey Vector049 do you have a problem with our military (big bad)? Yes you are right it takes men like me to keep punks like you safe from those who would do you harm, you are welcome.
USMC
June 17, 2008
7:20 a.m.
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DahmersCookbook writes:
Saw these guys hovering above the old 'Gates' plant around 9:30pm. I thought Peckman was below being held hostage by aliens, I almost shat my trousers, almost.
June 17, 2008
7:34 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
This is done to make citizens accustomed to military hardware, and martial law easier to accept. Don't accept it, Posse Commititus puts citizen protection under police authority. Blending police and military is what tin pot dictators do to control their population.
June 17, 2008
7:58 a.m.
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airbornebigfoot writes:
just wait until the convention starts,
the military, and the local police will be trying out all kinds of
toys on the protestors. personally, I cant wait to watch it all unfold on CNN.
June 17, 2008
8:09 a.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
Number of times this exercise performed in history: Zero
Number of times this exercise performed since Sep 11 2001: Zero
And now, for the first time in history, is performed a few weeks prior to the DNC Convention.
Yeah... the only people stupid enough to believe that this had nothing to do with the Democrat party for fatcats, are the same clowns that naively believe that taxpayer funds won't be used to pay for Democrats to have a boozefest in August too.
June 17, 2008
8:18 a.m.
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hunter writes:
Hey FireFox,
I don't say this to make you mad but I'm tired of folks thinking that the only ones who protect freedom are those in the military. Freedom is protected first by the citizenry, i.e. the vote, the military is only sent in after elected officials see the need and sadly it seems that many thousand have died in combat fighting for something other than freedom. I'm glad that you and others want to do something for your country but what scares me is how blind patriotism has been and is used to accomplish the goals of a few. We need to remember that those we consider to be the first patriots of this country, the founding fathers, didn't trust government; we would do ourselves and liberty favor to do the same.
June 17, 2008
8:32 a.m.
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farsidefan writes:
I worked across from the state capitol when they had the G 8 summit here years ago. We had black helicopters flying all over downtown weeks before and during the event. The manhole covers around Civic Center were welded shut. All curb drains for rainwater were screened off.
We actually had a bomb threat called into our building.
We went outside and within minutes the black helicopters were circling, the police and bombing sniffing K-9's showed up, the police blocked off the area and the fire department was at the ready.
Bottom line : No bomb, but we went home early.
These folks are just practicing the boy scouts motto.
I wonder if the folks in Minneapolis are doing the same.
June 17, 2008
8:41 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
The media ban on this issue drives the intrigue.
Vector - on 9/11 we (the military) were scattered around the world with our hands tied by policians. After 9/11 the cuffs were loosened up a bit so that we could restore safety, but as soon as the short lived patriotism again transformed to poorly informed paranoids like yourself, military hands were once again tied. Until you have sat in some bunker waiting for the orders to go to get your axx shot at, until you are waiting on some sort of information while you ar in Saudi while you are watching the building your spouse works in get hit with an airplane, until you have eaten nothing for weeks but MRE's, you have not yet earned the right to criticise the military. When you get on the plane not knowing if you will ever see your family again, when you have delivered a death notification to a next of kin, when you have sat and earned a poverty wage as a member of the military who is out in a high threat area, when you have tried to gather up the fragments of your friend's legs just blown off by an IED, then you can criticise the military. But until you have joined us, walked in our shoes, and have been spit on by your fellow Americans because the press paints you in a bad light as losers, fodder, and baby killers, keep your damn mouth shut unless you are thanking us for the sacrifices we make daily. It is irresponsible ilk like you who hide your cowardice behind "freedom of speech" who are not deserving of the freedom that men and women have paid for with their blood. Some Americans are free by birth. Others have earned that right by setting aside their infantile selfishness, getting out, and doing something for the good of the whole country, even the gutless whiners like yourself.
For those of you afraid you are about to live under martial law - if ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest people on earth. You should feel privileged to host a training exercise. The military is not filled with gun toting monsters. It is filled with men and women who are just trying to do a job - serve their country.
June 17, 2008
8:45 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
MG, The military is for wars, domestic protection is up to the police. Bringing the military onto our soil to do the cops' job is martial law, AKA lost liberty.
June 17, 2008
8:48 a.m.
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Cabermon writes:
Remember that in addition to the noisy idiots of R-68, there are REAL terrorists out there who don't differentiate between Obama and McCain. Heck, some of them consider Obama an apostate Muslim, which confers on him a death sentance! Neither the DNC officials or R-68 can stop real terrorists, and Jack Bauer's on summer vacation. The FBI, Denver police & the US Military are our bets to prevent a terrorist catastrophe.
June 17, 2008
8:48 a.m.
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Diff writes:
Back when I was in the military and worked on fighter planes;
I had this bumper sticker:
JET NOISE!
The sound of Freedom.
June 17, 2008
8:53 a.m.
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hunter writes:
ColoNative tells us that the military is not filled with gun toting monsters, I would tend to agree. But in his previous statements he tells others that they have not earned a right if they haven't served. That is what scares me about some in the military, if this is how some of them think then there may come a day when we will think those in the military are nothing but gun toting monsters. To want to serve your country is an admirable act; just don't forget, taking liberties from Americans when ordered to do so is not protecting freedom.
June 17, 2008
8:56 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Angel - your knowledge of support agreements between the community and the military is overwhelming - you must have gone to Harvard for Law School. When natural disasters take place, who is sent in to help out already over-burdened local law officials? When there are bleeding civilians who have lost it all in a storm, who is on scene to provide the resources and man-power? When the National Guard has exhausted their state funded equipment and personnel, who is called in to provide the manpower? Please note that at every active military installation, community support agreements are in place. When Ivan hit the Florida panhandle, Eglin AFB was called to help. When Katrina hit, who were the first life saving helicopters on scene? Were they from the civilian forces? Angel, get a clue. The military are already on your soil. If you want to see violation of human rights, why not check out the routine prejudicial actions that take place by civilians against the Army in El Paso county?
June 17, 2008
9:04 a.m.
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Retread writes:
Our founding fathers also saw the danger of standing Armys, another way for our government to take our freedom. That is why we still have the second amendment to protect ourselves from standing Armys under government control. That being said, I love the sound of rotor blades in the morning, the smell of JP-4, and the sight of ships in formation. As long as they do not land on my front lawn and start pointing weapons towards me...
June 17, 2008
9:04 a.m.
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temurlan writes:
I wish I could have watched. Eveytime I see something like that or an airshow it makes me more proud of our military.
Firefox, ColoNative, rounds on me.
BTW, the other day, when I was home in Golden, I saw a Cobra gunship helicopter circling over Table Mountain. What's up with that? And yes, I can tell the difference.
June 17, 2008
9:06 a.m.
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Holmes writes:
I believe we should always support our troops, however it is even more important to support our constitution. Posse Comitatus is there to protect the citizens of this great nation from the tyrannical behavior of men who seek power at any cost. This so called "war on terror" has a faceless enemy with far reaching implications that may designate any American as an enemy combatant if they do not agree with the government of even choose to exercise their right to free speech in announcing that the "Emperor has no clothes". Do not be deluded to think we live in a day and an age where men will not do whatever it takes to see the plans they have made come to fruition. If you value the legacy given to us by our founding fathers and the sacrifice made by the men and women who serve our nation in uniform, then you should choose to not remain ignorant to what is taking place right now in America. Our liberties and freedoms are being taken away each day and are being replaced by what is being deemed to be "security" by our authorities. Be informed, be aware. This is not a criticism of anyone nor is it an accusation of anyone, this comment is simply a statement to all of us that these changes in American domestic policy once in force will not be removed and will inevitably replace the constitution as the law of the land. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS - AND REMEMBER ALL THOSE WHO DIED TO PROTECT THEM !!!
June 17, 2008
9:07 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Hunter - I'm simply saying that unless you have eaten some to the same dirt we have, lived in some of our tents, and have been blown up, shot at, and spitted on, you cannot know what we have put up with. Did you know that an E-5 in the military with a spouse and a dependent child is eligible for foodstamps because they are not getting enough pay to cover basic living costs?
June 17, 2008
9:07 a.m.
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schutz323 writes:
This is just great...we now accept the military in our cities...the more we accept this the easier it will be for our government to imprison anyone it deems a "terrorist." We need to fight back NOW
June 17, 2008
9:09 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
FOUR DEAD IN OHIO....says it all
June 17, 2008
9:13 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Schutz - Move to a city where there is an active military installation. Learn. How many towns have military bases in them? How do those communities react when realignment threatens closure? Communities begin to beg and plead for their bases to remain open. By and large, this country loves the military, and those of us who are in or have been in apreciate that love. What we fail to appreciate is the anti-military bias military coverage and paranoid people who are threatened by men and women in uniform.
June 17, 2008
9:16 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"This is just great...we now accept the military in our cities..."
Schutz, hopefully there is never a major natural disaster or terrorist attack near your home. If there ever is, I hope you remember making that statement and don't expect any assistance from the military.
June 17, 2008
9:18 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Ahhh. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to bring up Kent State. Your understanding of the situation there is outstanding. Please do more to bolster your posiiton than present an uninformed allusion to a communist backed, alcohol fueled, rioting and vandalizing mob of poorly informed and easily manipulated youth.
June 17, 2008
9:19 a.m.
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schutz323 writes:
ColoNative - the Constitution deems a standing military a threat to freedom...what we need in this country is a militia and for everyone to own a gun...I dont need protection from the big bad terrorists and I don't need blackhawk helicopters flying over our cities...let everyone in this country own a gun with absolutely no restrictions and then we don't need any protection from anybody
June 17, 2008
9:21 a.m.
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Firefox writes:
Notanamericansheep,
Patriotism for your information has kept you from speaking, Russian,Japanese,German!! I can tell you for fact that the towel heads (your words) I have shot at and that have shot at me do not hold the same morals you or I do, they would and do kill women and children without hesitation they fight the cowards fight with their IEDS. Did you forget 9/11 that is as far as I need to look to realize what side of this fight Iam on.
Sincerely,
3rd Battalion Fourth Marines Combat Out Post (COP) Haqlaniyah Iraq
June 17, 2008
9:24 a.m.
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Kered writes:
This is hilarious! I can just imagine a lot of you typing away wearing tin foil on your heads right now...it's a conspiracy! No, it's just a training excersise. It sure had me entertained for a while because it drowned out all the motorcycles!
June 17, 2008
9:25 a.m.
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hunter writes:
ColoNative, I did follow that point but I hope you see how you sounded. I don't hate the military, but I guess what I and some others know is that our very own military can be use for purposes that are less that honorable. It seems your point is about the men and women in uniform, mine is about what they may be asked to do. We can all still love our country and question those in power at the same time.
June 17, 2008
9:27 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
Ahh, JTF-6, and the drug war,
These wars on ________, are not wars for traditional means. These wars are wars on our freedom. By waging a phony war on an abstraction the safeguards must be dismantled, making it easier to justify the loss of rights to "win". Funny how 1990-1998 covers most of the Clinton years.
While I cannot list exact dates and events from then, it is easy to cite; the first Authorization for Use of Military Force, passed in September 2001 declaring the War on Terror as a war on American soil, the PATRIOT ACT, The Military Authorizations Act, all written to erode our Bill of Rights. These all pave the road to Martial law and suspension of our government. We stand today one national emergency from this possibility. Why do we accept this?
American children are indoctrinated into the American Exceptionalism, using definitions of words hijacked to misrepresent what freedom is, we all are then driven into a certain way of thinking.
Cultivating blind patriotism this controls our reactions when we are confronted with information detrimental to this indoctrination. That is how dissenters are now labeled Anti-American, or America haters.
I have several redneck friends who share the fantasy that liberals and malcontents should be rounded up and sent to detention camps. Making America pure would unify us and strengthen our resolve to win the war on terror. I don't project this onto yourself by any means, I just know that these thoughts are here.
These sentiments have been among the Americans for a century. Fascist admirers were among the corporate elite, such as Henry Ford, and Charles Lindberg. Our own George Bush's Grandfather Prescott financed the German war machine, and the Notsee party. Look it up. FDR was almost sacked in a coup by these same Fascist admirers. If it happened then, it can happen today. MG your service and loyalty is laudable, just reexamine your loyalty.
June 17, 2008
9:28 a.m.
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ColoNative writes:
Hunter - thanks for the clarification.
June 17, 2008
9:34 a.m.
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RedSox writes:
If this operation was done in anticipation for the DNC, then why was a similar operation conducted here in Boston, last week.
The GOP and the military must have something up their sleeves for the NBA finals. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Moonbat liberals, when will you get a clue?
June 17, 2008
9:36 a.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
Funny listening to the whiners attack the US military for doing their jobs...
The same whining clowns that will be the first to whine that the military didn't protect them when one of their inbred relatives becomes a victim of a terrorist.
Why stop at Spec Command forces in the drills.... bring in an armored division rolling M1's through downtown. Drop the 82nd into Boulder. It would be a "riot" to watch the granola heads running around wailing and with their hair on fire, as the 2nd ID rolls through LoDo.
June 17, 2008
9:38 a.m.
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jiggs86 writes:
Preparing for martial law.
Learn and prepare - infowars dot com.
June 17, 2008
9:44 a.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
It is just a show of force. I have yet to see a helicopter be able to chase a person, on foot, through the ground floor of an office building. Beside that the transition time from flying to leveling off to landing takes too long. The "pursued" will rapidly become the "gone". Clothing changes will possibly be part of the vanishing method used.
Urban crowd control may have been perfected in neighborhoods with a downtown full of one, two and three story buildings like Mogadishu, but not in American business districts with tall buildings. Shooting at American citizens goes well beyond crowd control and I can see that happening in downtown Denver. Too much collateral damage that won't be covered up and certainly will keep every lawyer, and then some, busy for a lifetime. If there is an insurrection by civilians I would give the amateurs the edge. The military and police will most likely stumble over each other.
I lived in Chicago and watched the '68 convention and post-convention games of the Chicago Police Department. Sure the police department had to defend themselves and needed to change their jackets from nylon to leather since they quickly found out that nylon burns like a SOB. In the long run the police lost and the majority of punks vanished. Only a few stood before a judge and years later became affluent businessman.
This is all going to end up "yesterday's news" and soon forgotten.
I think I'll go read a book about ancient history where the characters have more courage and a sense of right and wrong. This whole recreate '68 is too much silliness.
June 17, 2008
9:47 a.m.
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schutz323 writes:
Having a military conduct military operations in a US city is not a conspiracy theory to get people used to the military in the cities...these a gradual steps that are masqueraded as "protection" against the big bad terrorists...by the way, does anybody remember the chorus from the people right after 9/11 saying that the terrorists will not change our way of life? They have and we have allowed the government of the US to walk all over us and shred our rights
June 17, 2008
9:50 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
colonative and firefox, you both have excellent points. I think some posters have forgotten that Colorado is home to Buckley AFB in Aurora and Pederson AFB, Fort Carson and NORAD in Colorado Springs. They don't always train out in the middle of nowhere so that some people will be more comforted by not having to see military training. As it was said, the military is already on our home soil performing functions that the police would normally do. Natural disasters, and the police aren't as capable as the National Guard in assisting what's at hand. Americansheep, are you one of those conspiracy theorists that believe the U.S. government was behind the WTC attack, and the attack on the Pentagon? What would you expect the Air Force to do....... target every passenger plane and if they even slightly veer off course, shoot them down? Follow every commercial flight with a fighter jet?
Some people posting are probably appalled at the sight of the Army moving equipment from Fort Carson on I-25, or at F-16's taking off from Buckley (oh, the noise..... wah, wah), but I don't fear our military, I appreciate and admire the men and women that serve. I live close enough to Buckley to see fighter jets taking off and landing, and it still gives me goosebumps watching them. I've seen Blackhawks and other types of helicopters in the air and not once was I paranoid enough to think they were, or are, a threat.
June 17, 2008
9:55 a.m.
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bandelier writes:
Nothing but a sheepish show of GW Bush "BOO" power. Remember, kiddies - Colorado is now in play in November. So the McStain department of justice has to wave their collective juevos over the voters to make 'em think twice before voting for someone who might not support the killing machine.
Snore. Take your tiny-peckers elsewhere, nazi stains. You BORE me with your little boy games.
June 17, 2008
9:57 a.m.
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AngelontheSidelines writes:
Thanks MG for your declaration. The oath of the military is to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. I just hope impending martial law triggers memory of this oath among the current servicemen. I love my country and our constitution, loyal to that document and the people, I work to better it by denouncing the current direction we are headed.
June 17, 2008
10:01 a.m.
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Hause writes:
People should not be surprised. This has been brewing for at least 40 years. The concepts of liberalism and conservatism are BOTH valid. The problem is, people who follow either are the ones that cause the problems. Fanatics of each side makes up about 10% per (hence, kook fringe left and neocon right). 80% of us are in the middle. People who truly think and listen are liberal about some things and conservative about others. To be all one way or another is totally unhealthy, chaotic, close minded, selfish to one another, destructive, and subversive to the US. So, Denver is a pinnacle. It is the liberal left chaotic homage to self destruction. Not because people proclaiming to be Democrats, or even Liberals. But because it will be the nerve center for fanatics and radicals on BOTH of these sides. Because of this, I applaud the preparations to protect the people in the "We're Screwed 2008" joke of elections.
June 17, 2008
10:05 a.m.
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Shadow writes:
If a situation should arise, who do you want to take action? The hostage rescue team out of Quantico (Marines), or the DPD who are afraid of lawsuits that will come to rise over agressive tactics.
Rights that have or are being erroded:
1) Smoking ban --- smoking a legal act but being prohibited
2) Right to chose what food we eat --- proposed tax and in the name of socalled health fast food tax
3) The right to express ones opinion --- if some one does not like it it is hate speech
4) Forced to inhale pot. ---- an illegal act but when in a closed elevator with a pot smoker you get just as many fumes if not more damaging consequences from their pot soked clothes then from a tobacco smoker.
5) The Constitutional right of bearing arms --- anti second amendment (gun ban), that limit or remove ones right to defend ones self against criminals
6) The right to decide what vehical one drives for, to and from work --- all in the name of it may save one tree.
The fact that local governments have worked with federal anmd military authorities for years, going back to the Lincoln assasination. To try and prevent attempts on politiacl figures, and other notable people is nothing new.
So enjoy the air show and relax. There is no conspirocy to stiffle public opinion.
June 17, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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MrJim writes:
Holy Crap, reading most of these posts it would appear that Boulder has spread all the way into Denver. You all want your freedom, then bit-ch about the groups that protect that freedom for you. You liberals would be the downfall of this country if it wasn't for the fact that enough people are still left to do the right thing. Now go put on a wig and go in the ladies bathroom, the Gov made that legal for you now.
June 17, 2008
10:29 a.m.
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agreatsign writes:
I'll bet the liberal foil hat crowd are still hiding under their beds after a Black Hawk flyover!
June 17, 2008
10:32 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
It looks like the government is preparing for a WAR against it's own people....
The LEO's get the ( supposedly ) non-lethal weapons...
But the MILITARY have standing orders to shoot to KILL.
And you already know that the DPD KILLS whenever they feel like it.
No good will come out of this mindset.
I see a mass slaughter coming up when you PROVOKE a person with a gun.
FOUR DEAD IN OHIO...
" Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it "
-Santayana
June 17, 2008
10:39 a.m.
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BSquared writes:
I just want to say that living downtown, the first couple blackhawks that flew over my apartment scared the living $^!& out of me. Once my neighbor filled me in on what was happening it was pretty cool to watch. Dont think I want to get used to it, but thats the closest I have ever been to one as it shook the floor of my apartment flying by.
June 17, 2008
10:47 a.m.
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Eli writes:
Good post, zweivierzwei. And that is coming from a conservative and a combat veteran.
June 17, 2008
10:49 a.m.
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mayday writes:
The_Punnisher writes:
FOUR DEAD IN OHIO...
" Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it "
The lesson to learn from the Kent State incident is don't take rocks to a gun fight...
June 17, 2008
10:53 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"Replace you with someone that would take orders without thinking, replace you with someone that wouldnt mind standing up to this countries people."
I think you've been watching too many movies, Notamericansheep. The military is not filled with mindless robots who follow orders blindly. We are individuals with minds of our own, and we have the common sense and morality to be able to tell right from wrong. You would be hard pressed to find a member of the military who WOULD go into an unprovoked fight against Americans, not the other way around.
June 17, 2008
10:56 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
More praise for you zweivierzwei! I agree completely!! Wow!
June 17, 2008
11:08 a.m.
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Treetop writes:
The enemies of the United States are in the White House and Congress,...not in Denver. You better fear the military as long as the 'enemy' is in charge. And with all due respect, this country will not be saved by patriots in the military, unless the Commander in Chief is in their gunsights.
June 17, 2008
11:09 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
Americansheep, why don't you expand on your theories? How did WWII "go down"? How did 9/11 "really go down"?
hause, you're right in saying that leaning too much one way or the other isn't healthy.
zweivierzwei....... I would've loved to see the SR-71 in person, just once. I agree with you about seeing the jets and stopping to take notice. Have you ever been to an air show? Anyway, your post at 10:21 was excellent and hit the nail on the head!
June 17, 2008
11:12 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
Mayday; The bottom line is that you do not deploy the MILITARY in the United States to deal with aggression. Did the government learn that lesson? We may just find out the hard way..
I have the utmost respect for the military, WHEN IT IS USED IN THE PROPER FASHION!!!
The comments in the book " Starship Troopers " ( not the gawdawful movie ) about the use of CONTROLLED VIOLENCE and the role of the military makes excellent reading; this was written by a man who SERVED and was made a speaker at his alma mater AND was required reading at War Colleges...
But when you deploy the MILITARY in a DOMESTIC CAPACITY, you run the risks of destroying the fabric of OUR society.
From Wiki:
Starship Troopers is on the reading lists of the United States Army,[33] the United States Marine Corps,[34][35][36] and the United States Navy.[37] It is the only science fiction novel on the reading list at four of the five United States military academies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship...
The military does best when deployed abroad. NOT IN THE US.
Note what happened recently with the transport of nukes in the US....and what if those copters " accidentally " discharged a few rounds in YOUR direction?
Everything can be fun...until someone gets hurt...
June 17, 2008
11:14 a.m.
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Alive writes:
This is gettin' good. It is a good thing that people can say what they really think. The Internet is changing humanity. We are finally getting to know one another. And it is entertaining to boot. Have at it folks!
June 17, 2008
11:14 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
zweivierzwei, I hope you aren't looking to get attacked. I think you enjoy that somewhat. ;) Your post wasn't too long and I agree with every point you made.
I served in the Air Nat't Guard for 13 years and miss the sounds and sights of the F16 flying overhead. Those afterburners were awesome!
June 17, 2008
11:21 a.m.
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RonaldLewis writes:
I live in Uptown and heard the copters during most of the afternoon. While on my way to have dinner last night, I inquired about the activities with the Denver PD on 16th Street Mall.
The female cop responded, "What do you think?" WTF? The last I read, Denver was scurrying to finance a multi-million shortfall for the DNC and it was being reported that they might delay the event, or that Denver might be forced to pay for the shortfall itself.
"What do you think?" Her smart response really set me off. Anyway, the male cop responded that they were doing exercise for the DNC. However, in this article, the military is claiming that these exercises aren't even related to the DNC.
So, did the DPD lie or were they partially telling the truth? Or, were these exercises something more sinister? Americans really need to wake up. Stop sniffing the glue and pay attention to what's going on in your country.
June 17, 2008
11:24 a.m.
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mayday writes:
Unless we're prepared to drastically increase the size, equipment and missions of the various police forces, the military will remain the tool of last resort for these sorts of problems. Whether it's the Ohio National Guard stopping the rioting and arson in '70, or the 101st "forcibly" integrating black kids into white schools in '57 the military will have to step in when local law enforcement can't or won't handle the problem.
June 17, 2008
11:25 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
RonaldLewis,
I wouldn't read too much into what the DPD department had to say. Maybe the female cop didn't know and that was her typical response, so as not to look ignorant herself. If there was really something going on to be concerned about, street cops would have no knowledge of any classified information.
June 17, 2008
11:35 a.m.
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Eli writes:
“I KNOW we have a great military, but these guys are told to follow orders.”
LEGAL orders, notamericansheep. The military is trained to follow legal orders, and is trained on what is and what is not a legal order.
Also, I am unaware of any epidemic in our military regarding it being taken over by violent gangs. I am aware of some former gang members in the military- I served with a few myself, and I would say that the military is probably the best place they could possibly go in order to develop discipline and get rid of the “gang banger” mentality.
I am also unaware of a large influx of non-American citizens infiltrating the ranks. I know they’re there, there were two guys in my platoon alone who were not citizens, and earned their citizenship while serving. From my experience, they exhibited no signs of any desire to turn the military against American citizens.
June 17, 2008
11:40 a.m.
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The_Punnisher writes:
zweivierzwei writes: " About not misusing the military, well sure, but it does not always work like that in the real world. "
The quote FOUR DEAD IN OHIO IS FROM THE REAL WORLD!!
That is why I started with it. It looks like some people had better learn about the " Days of Rage " and the mindset of the country that happened then. This mindset is starting to become very familiar to those who lived through those days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category...
Are you ready for martial law?
Or are we going to allow the military to quench the violence with some violence of it's own? An " undeclared " martial law ( like the " police actions " we have seen before ) against the US Citizen?
We are opening a Pandora's box here. It's fun to play with the hardware ( The US WON'T play with the hardware I helped design, but it should ), but actually using it domestically is another thing...
June 17, 2008
11:40 a.m.
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Treetop writes:
History backs me up, why not look up Prescott Bush's role in the failed 'coup' in 1934? Don't look into the school books from public schooling, it's not mentioned. Read what Smedley Butler says, he was the most decorated Marine in his time.
Look up the business' that were closed down by the FBI, Prescott Bush again, they were closed for 'Trading with the Enemy Act'.
Look up how George H W Bush was meeting with the FBI Director only hours after John F Kennedy was assasinated. This was when George Bush was only supposed to be an 'oilman'. Our President had just been killed, where did George Bush the supposed 'oilman' carry enough weight to get a face to face meeting with Hoover?
Look up Salem Bin Ladens financing George W Bush's oil company, 'Arbusto Energy'.
Look up the middle man with Bin Laden and Bush, his name is James Bath. Former Director of BCCI.
There are too many connections from BCCI to list here, but it involves everything from a shadow government, to terrorist funding, to drug smuggling, to gay and child prostitution. Search the history of Franklin Savings and Loan, etc etc etc
Do NOT rely on the TV or newspapers for information, they are part of the conspiracy.
Do NOT rely on what I say either,....look into what I've said, and you will be sick to your stomach when you realize how bad things really are.
I love the United States, not the government
June 17, 2008
11:53 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
ColoNative: "Until you have sat in some bunker waiting for the orders to go to get your axx shot at, until you are waiting on some sort of information while you ar in Saudi while you are watching the building your spouse works in get hit with an airplane, until you have eaten nothing for weeks but MRE's, you have not yet earned the right to criticise the military."
I don't know why you're a member of the US military if this is your opinion, because last I checked, free speech IS one of our fundamental rights in this country and I assume you joined the military because you value those rights for all. But based on what you just said, it sounds like you'd rather defend martial law instead of democracy!
And I too am tired of all the bragging of certain people on this forum who served in the armed forces. I have a feeling the truly honorable servicemen and women in this country don't go around boasting that they served and that this gives them an elite privilege the rest of us don't have. I also have a feeling they were probably a lot more brave and courageous in times of conflict than some of their peers on this forum who like to tell us how superior they are to those of us who haven't served.
As I told another person on this forum once, you tarnish your badge of honor every time you shove it in someone's face.
June 17, 2008
11:56 a.m.
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mayday writes:
Punnisher:
That is why I started with it. It looks like some people had better learn about the " Days of Rage " and the mindset of the country that happened then. This mindset is starting to become very familiar to those who lived through those days
Unfortunately, the folks who need to learn those lessons are leftist protesters and the lesson is "Don't provoke the police into an appropriately violent response and than scream 'brutality'".
Y'all have tried that game plan many times before, always with the same response.
June 17, 2008
11:59 a.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
Sasquatch
Finally! Some one got it. Americans are too fat, lazy and spoiled to seriously ponder anarchy. I, for one, would love to be present, upwind of course, when that speaker is turned up. Then we can get back to serious complaining and whining as a country.
To put things into perspective....this isn't going to be another Bruce Willis movie.
The article started as an exercise, most likely for the reserves. Since then the paranoia level has escalated. If it were to hit the fan, so to speak, most of you would get in line, board the trains, and shut up when told to. A nation of fear would be born and we'd all regress back to the fun filled days of the Nazi's. The able bodied men would quickly be rounded up and most likely left in a ditch along the road. The female Denver cop was a hint...she gave a half-assed answer because she 1) she really doesn't care about the citizens sensitivity and 2) hasn't a clue as to what is going on and is 3) just following orders.
In other words if it gets noisy outside just stay in the house and watch TV. Wolf or O'Reilly or some talking head of your choice will sort it out for you. And then....just get in line. Your government will take care of you.
This has been a mixed comment so have at it. I'm bored today.
June 17, 2008
11:59 a.m.
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Cwillyrun1 writes:
treetop, are you aware that George Bush Sr. used to be director of the CIA?
June 17, 2008
12:04 p.m.
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mannaman writes:
We are prepping you for MARTIAL LAW. What are you doing reading anyways, you should be watching the sports games like all the other mindless sheeple who have given up their liberty and freedom for a FALSE Security and who revel in being lied to. Franklin said that YOU deserve neither. So go and vote, doesnt matter to us in the CFR and bildaberg group who OWN both political parties! None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. Go back to sleep sheeple and dont google CFR or Bildaberg group, its better not to know who controls/owns you! If a nation expects to be ignorant and free it expects what never was and never will be!
June 17, 2008
12:06 p.m.
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Treetop writes:
Cwillyrun1: He was Director of the CIA in 1974 for the first time ever,...not 12 hours after President Kennedy was assasinated.
You did not research the FACTS that I gave you, look into them if you think you can handle the REAL truth
June 17, 2008
12:08 p.m.
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saveferris writes:
George Sr wasn't director of the CIA until 12 years after Kennedy was assinated.
June 17, 2008
12:21 p.m.
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USPatriot writes:
Some of you in the military are confusing 'freedom' to mean 'security.'
Please remember the wise Ben Franklin once said:
"those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both"
Our government is using terror to scare the populace into believing that we do not need our liberties, we instead need the military to give us SECURITY. Two very different things.
June 17, 2008
12:29 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Bravo, USPatriot! Well said.
June 17, 2008
12:33 p.m.
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Treetop writes:
True Big_D, if we listed everything the Bushes were involved, we'd have carpal tunnel sydrome before we finished. lol
Even then, the Bushes are only a small part of the criminals involved
June 17, 2008
12:37 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
It doesn't make me a different person. Plus, I don't feel that I need to be honored. I was just doing a job. I was never in any danger, except maybe when I was in Saudi for a few weeks. I do feel proud to be a citizen of the US, though, despite everything going on currently. We are becoming more and more divided.
June 17, 2008
12:41 p.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
Treetop
So start naming the criminals and what have they done? If anything is true, and can be proved, then we'll have something to research.
June 17, 2008
12:53 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
I was, in no way, trying to discredit what you or anyone else in the military did or is doing. I do agree, it was different for you. I appreciate the sacrifices of our troops and families, even if I don't understand or agree with the choices our government has made.
June 17, 2008
12:54 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"As far as the Military toys go I am more interested in the stuff that makes little to no noise now."
Like what, Big_D?
June 17, 2008
12:55 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
steel: "In my book it does make you a different person. One who will stand up for your beliefs."
Steel, one of the most electrifying examples I have ever seen of someone standing up for their beliefs is the unknown man in Tiananmen Square who refused to back down from a military tank. I also give enormous credit to whoever was driving that tank, because he probably disobeyed an order to run over the guy.
Both were standing up for their beliefs, but just one was in the military - the other was a private citizen.
I don't see how anyone can watch this and not get goosebumps: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mrQqDqOx3K...
June 17, 2008
12:56 p.m.
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USPatriot writes:
Steel,
You are confusing security with freedom. Eventually we'll be at a point in this country when we wake up and realize that foreign entities own our landmarks, we're ID'd everywhere we go, and our gun ownership is revoked. That, is not freedom. That is a police state.
See China for more...
June 17, 2008
12:59 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"I also give enormous credit to whoever was driving that tank, because he probably disobeyed an order to run over the guy."
MTS, where do you get off accusing a tank commander of giving an order to kill a civilian?
June 17, 2008
1 p.m.
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leatherneck writes:
Against all Enemies Foreign and Domestic. It seems it’s the Domestic ones we are addressing here in Denver. I personally am not looking forward to the DNC. Military exercises are bound to happen more and more. It’s an obvious target for terrorism.
June 17, 2008
1:02 p.m.
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ashlandbus writes:
The REAL service to America. This is National Service in action. Want to talk about living in poverty? Put your money where your mouth is. You don't need a gun to serve your country. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25200476/
Americorps. Period.
June 17, 2008
1:08 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
Slow you down from doing what?
June 17, 2008
1:11 p.m.
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jay writes:
lol....that's right eli, because no one ever gave an order to take action that killed civilians in war.
wow.
June 17, 2008
1:12 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, are you defending a Communist army's use of tanks to intimidate its citizenry? If so, that's certainly an interesting position for you to take.
Nevertheless, if the tanks weren't there to enforce order ultimately through killing protesting citizens if necessary, one has to wonder why these tanks were equipped with deadly artillery. That is, a thinking person wonders...
June 17, 2008
1:12 p.m.
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leatherneck writes:
I can not believe some of the crap some of you people believe to be true. 911 was a very well planned sneak attack. Some of you that honestly belive that our military had something to do with it are complete idiots!!
June 17, 2008
1:16 p.m.
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Eli writes:
I said no such thing jay, spare me your straw man arguments.
Anyway, looking at the comment again I probably jumped the gun a bit too quickly there. As the Chinese aren't exactly known for using light handed tactics, I'd say it's probably fair to say that the guidance given was "Stop the protesters". I couldn't say for sure, obviously, because I don't know.
My initial reaction was to think that MTS was referring to the immediate chain of command, which would mean the commander of that specific vehicle, and would be a very unfair accusation to throw at someone. Knee jerk reaction though, regardless, so please accept my apology MTS.
June 17, 2008
1:16 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
So you just sit back and wait for it to come to you or do you reach out and take it? Or possibly it depends on what mood you are in that day. ;)
June 17, 2008
1:17 p.m.
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MattGuyver_007 writes:
Does anyone really think this has nothing to do with the impending Democratic National Convention? Of course it does! And good for the first responders / military for preparing. If something did run amuck wouldn't you want [them] properly prepared?
That's where it should stop, though. The military has no business policing the people unless martial law is declared... and in that case I would expect / hope there would be just cause.
June 17, 2008
1:19 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, apology accepted. Thanks for giving it. :)
June 17, 2008
1:37 p.m.
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SockRayBlue writes:
Big D
Regarding Operation Condor.....
This was back during the heyday of the Iran-Contra goings on. That was CIA action back then. We all are now aware that the CIA Wunderkind is a bunch of fresh faced college preppies that will tell you just what you want to hear. The old school types, that went through the Cold War, are gone. This next generation is a bunch of idiots that can lie as fast as any ten year old. Congress just has to remember that they now have competition and have to remember the lies they tell. Which could be the reason why the various members of committee's stick to asking questions and no longer ramble on ad nauseum.
If you're looking for a parallel to a government takeover this won't work. The enemies of our country are still "over there" and will be dealt with "over there".
June 17, 2008
1:39 p.m.
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jay writes:
it is not only the chinese that are using "heavy handed tactics" these days, eli.
the us has killed tens of thousands of civilians in a war of choice.
June 17, 2008
1:47 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
jay: "it is not only the chinese that are using "heavy handed tactics" these days, eli. the us has killed tens of thousands of civilians in a war of choice."
While my agreement with this statement will probably quickly dissipate my truce with Eli, I have to give it anyway.
Anyway, you know what scares me about our military? The fact that in the Constitution, the authorization of a military is given first for a domestic insurrection, THEN for foreign enemies. Our Constitution was originally crafted to give brute force power if necessary to a small group of elites - white male landowners - over the mass public. Thank God some amendments were added, but we still haven't changed the order of priorities for our military.
And so when I read a comment from a poster like Colonative who says one doesn't have the right to speak out against the military unless they served...and when I read articles about high-tech military aircraft circling our city in preparation for a convention supposedly to celebrate our democratic processes...some of my fears appear to be confirmed. This is one case where I truly hope I'm merely suffering from paranoia.
June 17, 2008
1:50 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Oh, and I forgot to add...when I read comments apparently approving the gunning down of young American citizens at Kent State.
Long story short, a lot of service people on this forum like to talk about how they fight for our freedom...but I wonder how easily they would turn on us if given the order to do so. And that's exactly why I gave kudos to whoever was driving the Communist army tank. He or she did NOT harm that protesting citizen. Let's hope if a situation does occur at the DNC convention, our own military and police will show the same kind of restraint and respect towards their fellow citizens.
June 17, 2008
1:52 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Jay,
Given your choice of the words "these days" and "war of choice", I will assume that you are talking about Iraq. Correct me if I am wrong there.
Collateral damage is a tragic but very real consequence of war. That is undeniable regardless of your feelings regarding the war in Iraq. What is also undeniable is that the U.S. military has not been given orders to intentionally target civilians.
I would even go as far to say that the U.S. military takes greater measures than any other military in the world to avoid these casualties. We invest massive amounts of dollars in precision weapons for this purpose. This doesn't mean that it doesn't happen anyway, and it doesn't mean that I am claiming or have even implied that "no one ever gave an order to take action that killed civilians".
June 17, 2008
1:54 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"Long story short, a lot of service people on this forum like to talk about how they fight for our freedom...but I wonder how easily they would turn on us if given the order to do so."
Please see the comments from myself and MarineGrunt above on this, MTS.
June 17, 2008
2:13 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli, I truly hope that if it came down to it, service people would refuse to shoot their own neighbors and fellow citizens. Unfortunately, history tells a different story.
I've been doing some reading of late on what happened after the US won independence from the British. There were actually a few further rebellions happening in this country, largely against taxation that was imposed by the new US government. While the state militia refused to kill their rebelling neighbors, the federal militia that was eventually called in to quell the uprisings did not.
And there are many instances since of the military firing on and killing union organizers and protesters in the early 20th century, and of course, we have what happened in Kent State...
At any rate, it looks like there is going to be a mass amount of both police and military during the DNC convention. While I would like to believe if it came down to it, the majority would hesitate before using force upon American citizens, experience tells me that this is unlikely.
And it's not helped by the fact that many people, at least on the RMN forums, appear to welcome the idea of physical violence against at least a certain faction of the protesters.
June 17, 2008
2:24 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"There were actually a few further rebellions happening in this country, largely against taxation that was imposed by the new US government. While the state militia refused to kill their rebelling neighbors, the federal militia that was eventually called in to quell the uprisings did not."
It was a very, very different country then, MTS. Before, during and after the revolution, the individual states were considered very much sovereign from one another (not by all, mind you. this was a big cause of debate in the years to follow the revolution. In part it is also what cause the rebellions you are referring to). You could say that the union back then was more comparable to what the EU is today than to what we now think of as the United States, with each state being a province today rather than its own sovereign state.
June 17, 2008
2:27 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
steel, I've heard that new "Crowd Control" weapons have been developed that can deliver microwave-like burns, and also cause someone to actually defecate themselves. It all sounds very conspiracy-theoryish, I know...but Hickenlooper has been straight up asked if such weapons will be used to control the protestors, and he refuses to answer.
If you don't believe me, do a "microwave weapons" or "Brown Note" search in Google News for more detail. You should be able to pull up articles from the Denver Post, Fox News, the Houston Chronicle, and various other sites about the speculation of these weapons being used at the DNC.
June 17, 2008
2:27 p.m.
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Eli writes:
"And it's not helped by the fact that many people, at least on the RMN forums, appear to welcome the idea of physical violence against at least a certain faction of the protesters."
I do agree 100% with this part of your post. I consider an equal amount of force to be acceptable, nothing more. Should protests turn into violent riots, nonlethal force is appropriate. Should rioters turn deadly, say for example going after police with a knife or a gun, then a deadly force response is appropriate.
Wishing for violence against the protesters is completely unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.
June 17, 2008
2:38 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Yeah, but what I worry about is who is in charge of figuring out what constitutes an "equal amount of force." I mean, if protesters start throwing rotten tomatoes or something, does that justify beaming them with ray guns that fry their skin?
That's just one scenario, of course. I've never actually been in a riot, so I don't know what exactly sets them off. I've been in a few protests, but they didn't get violent. Although people walking by who didn't agree with the protesters got kind of ugly...and you never know if such a situation could start a riot. Someone on the opposing side instigates it, but it's the protesters who get shot with a hail of rubber bullets. Or worse, according to what I'm reading. They're developing some seriously scary sounding "Crowd Control" weapons, and from what I've read, they want to test these weapons out domestically before using them in foreign military conflicts!
June 17, 2008
2:46 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
Wow, when I was a kid, the only danger at a parade would be the possibility of getting hit in the eye with a Jolly Rancher or smacked with a Hershey's Kiss.
June 17, 2008
2:48 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
...and the only defecation would be from a horse.
June 17, 2008
2:49 p.m.
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Eli writes:
That's a fair enough concern, MTS, and citizens do have legal recourse if police use excessive force. I know it can be argued that the deck is stacked against the victim there, and in some cases that may be true and some it may not, but the fact remains that law enforcement does not have the authority to use excessive force. I also think that often times protesters will scream "police brutality" when there is none. Protests held at the marine recruiting station at Berkeley would be a good example.
I have actually read quite a bit about the specific weapon you are referring to. No, throwing tomatoes would not justify the use of such force. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over tear gas being used for something like that, though.
Personally, I think you're much more worried than you need to be. Police using excessive force and abusing protesters would be the exception, not the rule, and when excessive force is used the public backlash against the department in question isn't exactly mild.
June 17, 2008
2:49 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
steel,
Wow, our minds were in the same place as the horse poo, in the gutter!
June 17, 2008
2:52 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
There is a possibility the tomatoes could be infected with salmonella. Wouldn't that be considered force with a deadly weapon?
June 17, 2008
2:53 p.m.
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Eli writes:
Oh, and regarding that microwave weapon...I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it doesn't "fry" the skin. It actually doesn't cause physical damage.
I do think it'd be a bit excessive to use in a situation like your tomato scenario, but whatever you're reading is giving you some false ideas about what this technology does.
June 17, 2008
2:55 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
"Our government is using terror to scare the populace into believing that we do not need our liberties, we instead need the military to give us SECURITY." I have stayed out of this one due to the freakshow it has become...BUT...are you kidding me? I think the terrorists used the terror! And it should be pointed out that we havent had another attack on US soil in 7 years! If our government was using this as a tactic, would'nt they have done it again to reel in the non-believers? Get real people.
June 17, 2008
2:59 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
Eli: "Personally, I think you're much more worried than you need to be."
Perhaps. I certainly hope I am. On the other hand, I can't shake the nagging feeling that some of could be a little more worried than we are. Taken as a whole, I've seen three articles today about disturbing government intrusion in our lives. This one, another article about cameras installed at intersections, and a third article about performing random urine tests on schoolchildren. While a handful of the posters express some real opposition to all of the above, the majority pooh-pooh the concerns, crack jokes, or bristle if we don't like it, too bad.
I am concerned. If the citizens of this country don't watch out, they're going to become a bunch of frogs who don't realize they're sitting in a boiling pot because the temperature was turned up so slowly.
June 17, 2008
3:02 p.m.
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Eli writes:
I think that was his point, steel.
June 17, 2008
3:05 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
mytwosense,
I am also concerned. But it is no surprise that there could be tragic happenings during the DNC and I feel more secure in the fact that we are gearing up to be prepared for any sort of attack. It is sad it has come to this, and we all should be at least a little concerned.
June 17, 2008
3:07 p.m.
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Eli writes:
You're getting into a whole bunch of different topics there, MTS. Each one of those could be debated individually and result in a very long thread.
I see the larger point...concern over big brother getting too big. It's a valid point, and issues like drug tests, cameras, etc. can and should be debated on their own merits. But they are not cause to think that the military is going to turn on American civilians and start slaughtering anyone who dissents.
June 17, 2008
3:13 p.m.
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temurlan writes:
Rocky reader while taking a photo of a helicopter: She said she waved at one of the copters "and someone waved back!"
That says it all right there.