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More churchgoers carrying firearms

Staffs seldom know who has guns, police say

By Hector Gutierrez, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Published June 12, 2008 at 10:23 p.m.
Updated June 13, 2008 at 12:43 a.m.

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Ever since a gunman went on a deadly shooting rampage at a missionary training center in Arvada and a Colorado Springs megachurch, law enforcement and security officials are encountering what they believe is a growing dilemma - people packing firearms when they go to worship.

Complicating the issue is the fact that many pastoral staffs don't know who among their flock is carrying a concealed weapon, security and law enforcement officials said Thursday during an informational meeting at the Heritage Christian Center in Arapahoe County. The meeting is a prelude to a three-day conference in November hosted by the National Association of Church and School Security.

John Casey, the former security director at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where Matthew Murray shot and killed twin sisters in December, said that after the gunfire ended several congregants raced to their vehicles to retrieve firearms.

"It looked like an NRA convention," said Casey, who is president of Paragon Training Group Inc., which consults with churches, Christian schools and daycare centers on security.

Arriving Colorado Springs police officers were forced to sort out whether the congregants were also the bad guys and whether more attackers were involved, Casey said.

"It caused a lot of confusion," he said.

At the time of the killings, the security detail for New Life Church had a plan in place, assigning two plainclothes guards to be armed and two others to be unarmed. They also had an intelligence official who was aware of the earlier shooting in Arvada, he said.

Littleton police Sgt. Gene Enley said he attended a meeting at which 10 people showed up, and he asked how many carried firearms to their places of worship.

"Ten people raised their hands," the sergeant said. "Nine said that no one knew they carried guns."

Casey said it was up to each pastor to adopt a policy on whether church members should be permitted to carry firearms onto church grounds.

He and Enley suggested that all churches need to somehow find out who among their congregations is bringing a gun to their houses of worship.

Enley and Casey said they discovered that many churches are not communicating with each other about security issues.

"Colorado has hundreds and hundreds of churches, and no one's talking," Casey said.

On Dec. 9, Murray killed two Youth With a Mission members in Arvada. Several hours later, he gunned down twin sisters in the parking lot of New Life Church. One of the church's armed guards wounded him; Murray then killed himself.

Comments

  • June 12, 2008

    10:47 p.m.

    Suggest removal

    MichaelClark writes:

    Just imagine the early Christians carrying swords to their secret or public places of worship. It looks like there is a lack of faith in the One being worshipped here. Yes, common sense is also a part of faith and obedience to God, but this is really a deeper issue for the professing Christian churches. Who are the real disciples of Jesus Christ, and what involvement should they have with these worldly mega-churches and their para-church cousins? Maybe God is using this obvious assault on the visible forms of so-called contemporary Christianity to separate the wheat from the chaff. Maybe the facade of Christian religion in America is about to be torn down or perhaps re-designed. The Devil certainly has his wicked hand in all this, but I think it's time for professing believers in Christ to think deeply about all this beyond just the "Devil's attack" mentality. What is God saying to his true church? Maybe it's what the Bible has said all along: "Come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord!"

  • June 12, 2008

    10:57 p.m.

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    Who_Me writes:

    God always seems to play a convenient role for these people. The security guard (ad nauseum) said something to effect of, "God guided my aim (or bullet) and I put him down hard." Wait, isn't this the same God who "guided" this guy into the church with his gun blazing away? More proof that a lot of people have died for Christ when they really didn't want to. Please Lord, protect me from your followers.

  • June 12, 2008

    11:23 p.m.

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    Chadley25 writes:

    As if people needed another reason to stay away from churches these days!

  • June 12, 2008

    11:24 p.m.

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    RockAshlar writes:

    WCWJC - What Caliber Would Jesus Carry?

  • June 13, 2008

    10:07 a.m.

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    happymike44 writes:

    Gee and people wonder why so many are not going to church.
    So much for love and charity.
    Wait till someone reaches into their purse it will look like a N.R.A. meeting when everyone pulls out the heat to take care of the problem.
    Also how is a person to really live the lords values when everyone is carrying a gun.
    People leave them at home where they belong before someone gets seriously hurt.
    Guns are for those who know how to use them look at the grnny at the sam's club.
    Now ask yourself do you want to be the person who repeats this action.
    Also I like how people use religion as a reason to justify their behavior.
    It scares me when the curch advocates wholesale violence against others and justify it with god told us to do it.
    Wonder what this week's sermon will be how to clean and quick load during a emergency your missing the point of christ.

  • June 13, 2008

    1:06 p.m.

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    Citizen21 writes:

    You are, by law, permitted to carry concealed so long as you have a permit. It is a right afforded to law abiding citizens, and one many are not willing to give up. Not one I am willing to give up- if criminals knew others carried, they might not be so brash. A "No Gun" zone just announces to the world that anyone there is defenseless or "easy pickins". You have a right to defend yourself.

  • June 13, 2008

    3:01 p.m.

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    Retread writes:

    Praise the Lord and pass the amunition!

  • June 13, 2008

    6:24 p.m.

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    USAPatriot writes:

    I wasn't aware that being a Christian made being a victim mandatory. Some here have no problem with the lambs being led to the slaughter...why is that? -USAPatriot

  • June 13, 2008

    8:16 p.m.

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    CAUTHON writes:

    " lambs being led to the slaughter"

    The great American philosopher Woody Allen :-) said the lion may lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep. Our supposed moral and intellectual leaders have devoted a lot of work to raising a couple of generations of sheep, and denying the existence of wolves, but the wolves are still with us.

    Prof. John Lott's papers show crime decreasing where people are allowed to have guns for self defense, and as best I can recall, the effect is larger than we might think based on the few people who actually get permits to carry. Probably it is the perception among criminals that the victims might be dangerous, and they don't know who has a weapon and who does not. If we really believe that robbing and murdering us is evil, then it is good that the criminals should be afraid to do that. And let’s not forget that when shall-issue carry laws are being debated, the argument is generally not about whether crime will decrease uniformly and monotonically in every precinct in the state, but whether blood will run in the streets for 200 miles as deep as the horses’ bridles, or only up to the stirrups; a lot of people are surprised when they see crime actually decreasing.

    Jesus generally favored non-violence, but he did say something about selling our garment to buy a sword; maybe now is the time for that. And, remember, having the gun does not mean we have to use it.

    In Tolkien's story about the ring, he told Denethor that it was so powerful and evil that it would burn his mind away even if buried beneath the roots of the mountain; that is fiction, this is reality, and the gun will not destroy your mind if you are careful about how you use it.

  • June 14, 2008

    1:01 a.m.

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    SteveW writes:

    All Christians trust in the grace of God for their salvation and the protection of their immortal soul. But in our mortal existence, we are responsible for our own lives and defense.

    If a Christian feels that s/he is the right person to defend the flock s/he belongs to, and is comfortable and legal to carry a firearm, there's not a thing wrong with that.

    Carrying of firearms by citizens has been legal in Colorado since 2003 with no problems. And the people who defended the church in Colorado Springs and stopped the mass murder from becoming even worse were armed civilians.

    Too bad none of those were at Virginia Tech or NIU.

  • June 14, 2008

    6:02 a.m.

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    lstovall writes:

    "law enforcement and security officials are encountering what they believe is a growing dilemma"
    I guess law enforcement doesn't trust law abiding citizens. A real dilemma is having someone come in and shoot everyone with no one to resist or stop the shooter.

    "many pastoral staffs don't know who among their flock is carrying a concealed weapon"
    That's why it's called "Concealed Carry".

    "churches need to somehow find out who among their congregations is bringing a gun to their houses of worship."
    And what benefit would this be?

    Some of these silly comments about the NRA convention makes it obvious that the people making such statements have never been to an NRA convention. There is nothing dangerous about law abiding citizens carrying guns. The criminal with the intent of killing people is what is dangerous.

  • June 14, 2008

    11:35 a.m.

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    rg writes:

    Jesus Christ had his own mode of execution; he preferred assassination whom Joseph Smith (Mormon) copied when Rockwell confessed to killing more than a hundred men for Joe. Jesus, though, enjoyed watching the execution: "Bring them hither and slay them in front of me," found in all versions: ask.com or google: Luke 19:27, as Jesus required his followers to hate mother, father, brethren, brother, sister in Luke 14 and if this doesn't sound like a cult I'm not a deicide, slayer of gods, whose sword and gun is the printed word. In Europe churches are vacant; the deicide emerges victorious. Richard Grimes http://www.geocities.com/r22037/think... (Its been a while since the Christ weasels hammered me}.

    Deicide Corner: “. . . There doesn't need to be a God for me. . .”-- Angelina Jolie, The Onion, A.V. Club, Sept. 7-13, 2000

    PS: Read the scripture so you won't say I'm taking it out of context citing parable, et al, notice the word "slay" or "kill" instead of "love" the favorite cry of the deluded along with: "God works in mysterious ways." rg

  • June 15, 2008

    5:38 p.m.

    Suggest removal

    Quilly writes:

    What does the Bible _actually_ say about carrying weapons? What does Jesus _actually_ say about carrying weapons?

    Luke 22:36
    Then he said to them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one.

    Luke 22:49-51

    His disciples realized what was about to happen, and they asked, "Lord, shall we strike with a sword?" And one of them struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. But Jesus said in reply, "Stop, no more of this!" Then he touched the servant's ear and healed him.

    Jesus realized that his disciples needed to be armed, and that they needed to have judgment on how to use those arms. In this case Jesus knew he must be sacrificed to Save us all. He never said for us to die like sheep. Certainly he wouldn't want us to be slaughtered by a madman.

    Finally this statement really bothers me.

    "Arriving Colorado Springs police officers were forced to sort out whether the congregants were also the bad guys and whether more attackers were involved, Casey said."

    Sorry, Mr. Casey, that law abiding citizens faced with a potential mass murderer forced..._forced_ I say... the LEOs to do their job. Which is, to be exact, separating out the bad guys from the good guys. I guess we should just lie on our backs, expose our throats to the crazies so that Law Enforcement has an easier job of sorting the DEAD good guys from the living bad guys. I guess I completely misunderstand this whole concept of self defense, Mr Casey. I thought it was, you know, to defend _ourselves_.