Four Denver blazes take their toll on families, properties

Early a.m. fires at two churches; one may be arson

Alan Gathright and Hector Gutierrez

Published June 4, 2008 at 7:04 a.m.
Updated June 5, 2008 at 5:52 a.m.

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Photo by George Kochaniec Jr. / The Rocky

A resident of the Airway Motel, right, is comforted by a friend after her unit was gutted by a fire Wednesday morning.

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Denver firefighters battled four blazes Wednesday that left two churches badly damaged, three people homeless, one man with serious burns and at least four pets dead.

Arrest in two church fires

Investigators said they believe a man found near one of the churches set the two buildings on fire. He was taken into custody after a jogger helped detain him, neighbors said.

The first fire was reported at 3:33 a.m. at the Rocky Mountain Miracle Center, 1939 S. Monroe St.

"The woman was out running this morning and she passed the kid, and he was holding a gas can and a can of soda," said Yvette Ramirez, a neighbor whose home was seared by the blaze.

"She thought, 'Hmmm, that's odd,' " said Ramirez, who heard the jogger recount the incident to police. The jogger then noticed smoke pouring from the second blaze at the Church In Denver, 1900 S. Cook St. - less than three blocks away. She called to a neighbor to call 911 about 5:40 a.m.

"Then she ran back and got this young man and said: 'I see there's a fire and I think you should stick around,' " Ramirez said. "He didn't want to, but she kept him there, which is amazing because she's a wee thing," she said.

Fire Cmdr. Joe Hart confirmed that the man was detained after the woman reported him. Investigators have not released his identity.

Arson investigators think a fire accelerant was used to set the Church In Denver blaze, Hart said.

The first fire, at the Rocky Mountain Miracle Center, destroyed an outside shed, an adjacent fence and charred the church interior. Church elder Gene Gruhler said a woman and her son who live on Cook Street with the man who was arrested apologized for his behavior.

"They said he seemed very normal and laid-back and they don't understand what happened," Gruhler said. "We said, 'You don't have to apologize, we just hope he gets some help."

Motel blaze doused fast

The third fire, about 11 a.m. at the Airway Motel, 1536 Verbena St., left three people homeless.

Firefighters contained the blaze to one unit and extinguished the flames in 18 minutes, said Lt. Philip Champagne, fire department spokesman.

One man suffered smoke inhalation, Champagne said.

The man's wife was not injured, and a child who lived with them was not home. Two dogs and two cats died in the blaze, however.

Champagne said the Red Cross was assisting the displaced residents.

Blast in University Park

The fourth blaze, after an explosion in a University Park home, seriously burned a man.

The unidentified resident, who is in his 50s, was taken to a burn unit. His condition was not available Wednesday night.

The victim's wife and two teenage sons were not at home when the fire started in the 2400 block of South St. Paul Street.

Neighbors said they saw smoke coming from the two-story home and heard pops before hearing a much louder explosion.

Soon afterward, they saw the victim race from the stone-and- wood home. Neighbor Lori Marks-Connors said she saw severe burns on his legs. "I said, 'Are you OK?' but he was a little bit out of it," she said.

The fire spokesman said the victim told investigators that he had smelled gas and turned on the electrical dryer when the explosion occurred, Champagne said.

The family's sheep dog has not been found. A sport utility vehicle parked in the garage was destroyed.

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Comments

June 4, 2008

8:40 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bob299 writes:

MarineGrunt,

Seems like a pretty liberal interpretation of religion or the lack there of.

Nice very nice.

Glad to meet a man who can think for himself.
June 4, 2008

8:59 a.m.

Suggest removal

Cowboy63 writes:

You can burn down every church in the World if you want...

It still won't change the fact that you'll be on your face giving an account of yourself to the King of Kings one day.
June 4, 2008

9:10 a.m.

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HolierThanThou writes:

You can burn down every church in the World if you want...

Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and Buddhists will loan them some space.
June 4, 2008

9:11 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

It's called FREEDOM OF CHOICE, marinegrunt...

He's giving YOU an opportunity to "feed the children, provide potable water and protect the innocent"...

What are you doing about it? (0ther than whining)
June 4, 2008

9:19 a.m.

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Spencer writes:

PJ Mama and cowboy, you can plan on laying on your face one day in front of some guy calling himself "King of Kings" but I don't share your beliefs and don't plan on laying on my face for some dude calling himself "King of Kings". Sounds like a wild rodeo for you two. enjoy
June 4, 2008

9:20 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

Or, realizing that he's fictitious, we can choose to do those things anyways realizing that the world is a harsh place and it's just tough breaks when people suffer.

The bible does not have final say on morality.
June 4, 2008

9:21 a.m.

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musicman80 writes:

Cowboy63 well put! Thanks
June 4, 2008

9:21 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

and for the record...

NO organization has founded more hospitals, schools and charities throughout the World than the Christian Church.

The unbelievers talks the talk, but the church walks the walk.
June 4, 2008

9:23 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

NO organization has killed more people throughout the world than organized religion.
June 4, 2008

9:28 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

Also, if you want to strictly divide the world into Christians and unbelievers...I bet the unbelievers as a whole have founded more hospitals, schools, charities.
June 4, 2008

9:29 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

sorry, spencer.
but it ain't optional.

"EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess"

that includes you Brother. Now, you can do it now, or you can do it later - but you will do it.
June 4, 2008

9:32 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

Are you kidding me PJ? You add up all the people killed by organized religion and you think Stalin wins?

Also, your attempt to throw in lefty as an additional insult amuses me.

There is no eternal life after death, deal with it.
June 4, 2008

9:35 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

If I had to be judged by some omniscient being (and I don't think that will happen), I'd rather be judged as I am. A decent, moral, free-thinking skeptic.

Faith has no merit to me as a virtue.
June 4, 2008

9:36 a.m.

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Spencer writes:

sorry goatroper, don't share your beliefs not going to your party. You can preach to me all you want but I think it is nothing fairy tales.
June 4, 2008

9:41 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

well, marinegrunt - at least you can't say you weren't told.

Good luck with that.
June 4, 2008

9:43 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

No PJ, like I said, I'd be able to stand up for my own virtues that don't include irrational belief.

I also don't believe Pascal's wager is any reason to believe in something.
June 4, 2008

9:44 a.m.

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jd writes:

"The importance of having a sense of the sacred is simply this--if one does not appreciate holy things, he will lose them.
Absent a feeling of reverence, he will grow increasingly casual in attitude and lax in conduct. He will drift from the moorings that his covenants with God could provide. His feeling of accountability to God will diminish and then be forgotten. Thereafter, he will care only about his own comfort and satisfying his uncontrolled appetites. Finally, he will come to despise sacred things, even God, and then he will despise himself.

"On the other hand, with a sense of the sacred, one grows in understanding and truth. The Holy Spirit becomes his frequent and then constant companion.
More and more he will stand in holy places and be entrusted with holy things. Just the opposite of cynicism and despair, his end is eternal life." by D. Todd Christofferson

As for most of the killings in the name of Christianity, they had nothing to do with religion, they were political using Christianity as a cover. Not all of course but you also have to remember that you are holding people from hundreds of years ago to todays standards. They didn't have the knowledge and understanding of the people of today. But the real question is what are you doing to make the world a better place or are you one of the cynical group?
June 4, 2008

9:44 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

PJ, what the grunt has said is no worse than you trying to paint all atheists as Stalin and Pol Pot.
June 4, 2008

9:49 a.m.

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rmnreader writes:

Cowboy - "it AIN'T optional" Really? Because last I heard everyone has a right to thier own beliefs or did I not get the memo from you "christians" that you now control my thoughts & beliefs?! Believe what you want but just because someone does not have your same beliefs does not mean you can conclude what they believe for them. Typical trying to shove thier beliefs down everyone else's throats.....
June 4, 2008

9:53 a.m.

Suggest removal

BlueSled writes:

I have been watching "MaryGrunts" posts for awhile now and I'm convinced he is just here to irritate people. He might even be paid to irritate people here.

He's actually as harmless as a little, cute ladybug =)
June 4, 2008

9:55 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

Indeed grunt, every time a Christian is caught doing something immoral the others are quick to point out that "he's not a true christian". If nothing else, I hope [the fictitious] God finds these people guilty of disloyalty.
June 4, 2008

10 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

I get a smile out of hearing all the non-believers writhe in agony when faced with the truth.

You guys keep trying to turn this into some personal insult fest, but I'd bet when the story comes out about this guy torching churches - his line of reasoning will sound just like yours.

Are you guys seriously bringing up things from 200+ years ago to base your bitterness on???
June 4, 2008

10:02 a.m.

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BlueSled writes:

Christianity teaches that EVERYONE is a sinner and that's ok, because you have been forgiven. It doesn't mean anyone, Christian or not, has to be perfect.

That is the basis of Christianity...all you have to do is believe. It's not about works on Earth, like other religions.

True Christians know humans are imperfect.
June 4, 2008

10:03 a.m.

Suggest removal

Heidi writes:

Say there is a one, true God. His intention for people on this earth is to not judge and condemn others. I would think that we are all supposed to be kind to one another.
What I don't understand is the thought that someone can murder, rape, commit adultry, and steal. If they repent to God and accept the Lord Jesus as their saviour before they die, they earn their ticket to heaven. But if someone goes through life without the belief that God exists or Jesus existed, they go to hell, no matter how they live their life.
Do you believers actually believe that the millions of people that don't even know the bible exists are to spend eternity in hell?
June 4, 2008

10:07 a.m.

Suggest removal

BlueSled writes:

Marinegrunt, I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. It was completely out of line for me to just totally destroy you like that. Again, I am so, so sorry.
June 4, 2008

10:08 a.m.

Suggest removal

Spencer writes:

Posted by PajamaPulitzer on June 4, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Bagel: If you don't think you be judged and it turns out you're wrong you're in deep doodoo. Yes?

So your beliefs are basically just a CYA thing? What if you're judged and all the ridiculous teachings have been wrong? What if God is gay? You better start loving everyone, you know that whole CYA thing.
June 4, 2008

10:08 a.m.

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Heidi writes:

Of course everyone is a sinner. But why should we embrace that? All you have to do is believe and you can rape and pillage all you want!
June 4, 2008

10:14 a.m.

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happymike44 writes:

Well this guy was one of god's big jokes.
Who openly starts a fire and then walks around carrying the gas can.
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
June 4, 2008

10:23 a.m.

Suggest removal

Heidi writes:

PP, I attended Catholic schools for 10 years. Maybe that wasn't the answer.
June 4, 2008

10:24 a.m.

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rmnreader writes:

10:08: Once one has received grace they are moved not to do these things.

So PJ a sexual offender who becomes born again will no longer offend because the believe?! Sorry but completely false it is a tangible fact that a true sex offender will offend again regardless of the punishment of circumstances - period.

Try again....
June 4, 2008

10:37 a.m.

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KCharles writes:

I really like lady bugs. They are one of my favorites of all of God's creatures.
June 4, 2008

10:38 a.m.

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Heidi writes:

PP, you haven't answered my question:

Do you believers actually believe that the millions of people that don't even know the bible exists are to spend eternity in hell?

How will I find answers about that?
June 4, 2008

10:39 a.m.

Suggest removal

spencerr writes:

Marinegrunt, rmnreader, Heidi, Spencer,

Do you believe in macro-evolution (i.e. - some time over the last six billion years, the correct amino acids randomly came together in a primordial soup under favorable conditions to form a living cell, which over time evolved into various critters, which in time evolved into us)?
June 4, 2008

10:42 a.m.

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spencerr writes:

And from my limited knowledge of the bible, the main definition of hell is a place where God is not...the absence of God. It is not necessarily fire and brimstone. We don't know what it is. For those of us who know God, spending eternity without him is hell. For those of us who do not know God, it seems to me that dark silence, like sleeping without dreaming, would not be so bad.
June 4, 2008

10:42 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

Why does religion afford people a special exempt-from-crazy pass when they claim to talk to an invisible being no one else can see or hear?
June 4, 2008

10:43 a.m.

Suggest removal

Heidi writes:

spencerr, primordial soup? Is that like a cordial cherry?
I hear it takes many years to perfect the perfect soup. So that could be the answer. I suppose MarineGrunt has missed out on a few of those amino acids, so he remains a ladybug.
June 4, 2008

10:43 a.m.

Suggest removal

spencerr writes:

Nobody is exempt from crazy, either. We do crazy things, we rot in prison the same as you.
June 4, 2008

10:45 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

sweet Heidi...

At least YOU know the Bible exists.

Don't worry about "the millions of people that don't even know the bible exists" - every time I talk to an athiest, all I hear is, "what about the guy in the bush of Africa who never heard of Jesus".

This guy has got more people worried about him than anyone else in the World!

Just start with taking care of yourself and God will do the rest.
June 4, 2008

10:45 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

PJ, a lot of crazies would tell you it was their faith that caused them to kill abortion doctors. Proving nothing.
June 4, 2008

10:46 a.m.

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Heidi writes:

spencerr at 10:42, that sounds like the best explanation I have ever heard!
June 4, 2008

10:47 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

"Just start with taking care of yourself"

Wasn't this very ideology admonished by you or PJ an hour ago?
June 4, 2008

10:47 a.m.

Suggest removal

spencerr writes:

LOL, Heidi, though I don't see how a cordial cherry is like a primordial soup. Seriously, micro-evolution is more-or-less proven (less, because in science you can only disprove), but macro-evolution is not scientific and takes faith the same as Christianity, Budhism, and Hinduism. Most true atheists point at "scientific" Darwinism, which is actually scientifically flawed.

If you know the facts about both, it takes just as much faith to believe in Darwinism as it does to believe in Christ as our savior.
June 4, 2008

10:51 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

spencerr, that is so wrong it is infuriating. Evolution is a scientific theory, meaning it is a model built to fit the facts. It is not speculation, and it does not require faith. It has as many facts that are correctly modeled by it as the scientific theory of gravity.

You also miss the point, scientists do not have faith in anything. They come up with a model and test it.
June 4, 2008

10:55 a.m.

Suggest removal

KCharles writes:

where does Garfield stand on macro-evolution?
June 4, 2008

10:55 a.m.

Suggest removal

spencerr writes:

Marinegrunt took the bait.

Macro-evolution is not scientific in the same way that Christianity is non-scientific because it takes true faith once you know the facts.

Macro-evolution operates under the assumption that when various specimins within a species are geographically separated, they develope, or evolve, into two different species. This is flawed for two reasons...when the two groups of specimins are geographically separated, their gene pools become smaller and not bigger, and there is no way to add BENEFICIAL genes into a gene pool. Mutations, at least in the animal kingdom, are 99.9 out of 100 times either idle or simply detrimental, and they are few and far between. Following this logic, how did we go from one cell four billion years ago to humans now. Let me repeat my two points-geographical separation makes the gene pool smaller, and there is no way to add a significant amount of beneficial genes into a gene pool.

Impossible scientifically. However, you don't have proof that God doesn't exist.

Takes more faith to believe in Darwinism.
June 4, 2008

10:56 a.m.

Suggest removal

Unicorn writes:

I personally believe that your spiritual health comes from within. MarineGrunt has the right idea where helping out your fellow man is concerned. It is one thing to attend church, donate to the collection plate and trust that your church will use that money to help others. It is quite another to donate personal time and skills to help out those in need. If more people saw to their own spiritual health by donating time and skills to others less fortunate, this world would be a better place.
June 4, 2008

10:57 a.m.

Suggest removal

Cowboy63 writes:

Bagel -

"scientists do not have faith in anything"???

that would be a surprise to Isaac Newton, Magellen, Copernicus, etc.
June 4, 2008

11:04 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

Cowboy, you obviously understood that scientists do not have faith in scientific theory. Clearly some scientists can be religious. Wow, way to catch me.

Spencerr, are you confusing me with grunt? I simply cannot understand where you get your ideas or information. Few and far between is exactly how evolution works. It is not impossible scientifically, or perhaps the thousands of biologists that study evolution might have noticed this.
June 4, 2008

11:08 a.m.

Suggest removal

Cowboy63 writes:

Bagel - you need to RELAX!

You're getting too worked up. Just state you case without losing your cool!

Once again. I'm sure when the story comes out - the guy who felt he needed to torch these churches will spout all the same "reasoning" you do.
June 4, 2008

11:13 a.m.

Suggest removal

musicman80 writes:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16
June 4, 2008

11:13 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

Calmer than you are.

Nice to equate me with someone who burns churches. That clearly makes my arguments invalid. My arguments are why I don't believe in religion, not why it's okay to burn churches (it's not). It's also cute of you to put reasoning in quotations, when you believe in the very opposite of reason.
June 4, 2008

11:14 a.m.

Suggest removal

rmnreader writes:

PJ - Having faith to help you through a difficult time in life and reading a book that says if you believe in it there is a power that comes over you "moving" you not to do bad things are 2 totally different scenarios in my mind. I have faith in myself to be able to get through a difficult time I am not relying on blind faith to help me through it. BTW what does your passage "once you have recieved grace you are moved not to do these things" say about all the priests sexually assaulting little boys?!

Spenserr - I would have to know more about it to have an opinion on macro-evolution. However growing up in a highly religious family a have formed my own views based on my religious education. While there is no proof god does not exist there is no proof that he does and the part that gets to me is how everyone uses this unproven being to excuse thier actions - prove it to me then you can blame being a rapist on him or her.
June 4, 2008

11:14 a.m.

Suggest removal

musicman80 writes:

MarineGrunt, what is the scientific evidence? Just curious..
June 4, 2008

11:19 a.m.

Suggest removal

rmnreader writes:

Posted by Unicorn on June 4, 2008 at 10:56 a.m.
I personally believe that your spiritual health comes from within. MarineGrunt has the right idea where helping out your fellow man is concerned. It is one thing to attend church, donate to the collection plate and trust that your church will use that money to help others. It is quite another to donate personal time and skills to help out those in need. If more people saw to their own spiritual health by donating time and skills to others less fortunate, this world would be a better place.

That was so well stated Unicorn and so accurate that I just needed to post it again in complete agreement with you!
June 4, 2008

11:19 a.m.

Suggest removal

Heidi writes:

Wow, this is exhausting. Have a good day people!

I have one comment about this article, though. "Man detained in church fires" Is this form of torture a new interrogation technique?
June 4, 2008

11:20 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

musicman, there are plenty of facts in fossil records, vestigial organs, common DNA among different organisms, etc... that is well fit by the theory of evolution.
June 4, 2008

11:20 a.m.

Suggest removal

Cowboy63 writes:

C'mon, Bagel.

You can believe what you want to believe. (like I said before - good luck with that). But,..

- you know as well as I, when this guy starts talking, he's going to spout all the worn-out atheistic nonsense.
June 4, 2008

11:24 a.m.

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KCharles writes:

Magic sky fairies & garfield? 5th grade level references may in it self define a 5th grade level debate. but they are cute- cute like a ladybug.
June 4, 2008

11:29 a.m.

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musicman80 writes:

MarineGrunt do you consider yourself a good person?
June 4, 2008

11:38 a.m.

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Bagel writes:

Cowboy, you should be on the police force since you obviously know for a fact everyone's intentions with anecdotal evidence.
June 4, 2008

11:44 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

I just say wait and see.

I can already hear the guy's jailhouse rant... "Crusades!.. priests!.. oppression!.. Inquisition!.. church done me wrong!..
June 4, 2008

11:49 a.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

Fair enough. And if the guy happens to call himself a Christian, I predict the very first statement will be "this guy's not a TRUE Christian".
June 4, 2008

11:54 a.m.

Suggest removal

spencerr writes:

Grunt, because you were brainwashed by a liberal/anti-religious/socialist public school agenda to believe that everything you were told about darwinism must be fact, does not make you a thinker.

There are not just gaps...there are clear discrepencies. And I am not even claiming that evolution is wrong...I am just claiming that science is more damning to evolution than it is to creation or intelligent design. Because you say that because some 100-level college biology class presented to you by a biased professor is correct, does not make me a non-thinking dumb-butt.

For you to claim that I am a moron is not dissimilar to me claiming that, while still a patriotic hero, you are nothing more than a muscle-headed jarhead who spent twelve weeks learning how to fire an M-16 and wipe his rear the marine corps way. What was it that attracted you to that particular branch anyway...were you computer-averse, or were you just macho. I know, maybe it was because they let you play with guns. Hoora...the only place on earth where they let you blow stuff up without throwing you in jail afterwards.
June 4, 2008

noon

Suggest removal

spencerr writes:

Bagel and Grunt. Try this link. It has more of the specifics about which I was referring. I can't remember the name of the PhD who does a much better job of taking macroevolution apart, but I will provide a link tomorrow that will let you in on some of his ideas. Also, it might open your eyes to see Ben Stein's new movie (though I admit that I haven't seen it myself, I hear that it is very interesting).

http://creationismunleashed.blogspot....
June 4, 2008

12:07 p.m.

Suggest removal

spencerr writes:

"There is more evidence, scientific evidence..." No there is not. I simply pointed out two facts that, along with hoards of other evidence, disprove macroevolution.

And Bagel, I will provide you that link tomorrow. I don't do this stuff justice. I haven't studied it personally because some of the intricacies are beyond the mind of someone who got a "B" in 100-level biology and didn't take his biology understanding any further. There are like eight hours of DVDs worth of very valid points. However, it is simple enough to understand...and the guy who argues it has a PhD in some sort of biology. He makes a lot of good points that are hard to refute.

Even if I didn't make a believer of you, it might be worth your time to endulge the material so that you can further strengthen your understanding or belief in Darwinism.
June 4, 2008

12:11 p.m.

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spencerr writes:

How did an article about a man with a gas can and a burning church turn into religious bickering anyhow?
June 4, 2008

12:19 p.m.

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rmnreader writes:

PJ - no proof = blind in my eyes.

"I have to wonder whether a person who would sexually assault a child is really a Christian, or one who simply proclaims to be a Christian."

Now that is not very Christian to doubt another brothers faith is it?! I'm picking on you - but your comment is spot on. If you do anything to hurt another person, animal, organization etc how can you (not you in particular) claim to have been a christian? Adversely how real is your born again christianity after you have harmed someone? My biggest problem is - harm others but become christian and all is forgiven - I think it is a facade for many. I know there are a lot of bad people out there claiming to be god loving people. The problem is how can I tell if the local Joe priest is true or whether he is just hiding behind his collar? My beliefs are that it is not that simple. Don't get it or believe it & never will.
June 4, 2008

12:20 p.m.

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OhBrother writes:

I don't know if some of you are trying to justify this guy burning down churches by stating why you do/don't belive in "god" but arson is a crime. a church is a reflection of a community, good and bad. taking that away from people in this manner will do no service in getting your point across, if that was even this guy's intention in the first place.
June 4, 2008

12:21 p.m.

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Bagel writes:

spencerr, I don't have the time to refute all of the arguments on that page, but I'll hit one or two (numbered according to how they are on his page).

1. No scientist would ever suggest a mousetrap evolved all at once. Evolution is all about small changes. There are many cases in which a complex orgam can evolve from something simple.
2. This assumes that DNA was always the DNA we have. Why does this have to be?

4. People love to misunderstand entropy and the law of thermodynamics. This in itself is usually enough to make me disregard the person as uninformed. The simple fact is, the Earth is not a closed system. The Sun provides all the energy that could ever needed for evolution to take place.

5 & 6. The absence of fossils do not disprove transitional forms. Read up on how fossils have to form, and you will understand why you and I will probably turn to dust, not fossilize.

8. Devolution is a false concept meant to throw doubt on evolution. There is no such thing. Evolution does not state that organisms have to increase in complexity. The fact that vestigial organs may still have functionality merely suggests that evolution hasn't finished getting rid of them.

9. Evolution and biogenesis are completely different topics.
June 4, 2008

12:27 p.m.

Suggest removal

Bagel writes:

PJ, I find it insulting that you assume Christians are the only ones who "want to be perfect and loathe transgressions". Read up on Buddhism, a religion that predates your own.
June 4, 2008

12:38 p.m.

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roger44 writes:

What all you Christians going to do when you get to the pearly gates and St Peter is wearing a turban? The Bible was written by man, it's his interpretation. Could be the guy that set the fire was told God will fix it all, and how great it will be if he follows the guidance of a man/woman on the pulpit, and found out different. Man cannot fathom that maybe this is all there is and came up with the conception of God. Most Christians will come up with a reason God lets the children starve, or no water, or natural disasters. They don't quite make sense to me, but I'm a skeptic. Their God must have quite a twisted sense of humor to let these things happen. People have made men their Gods, like Kenneth Copeland in his mansion and all his airplanes and businesses started by the flock who are fool enough to keep sending money. People thank God for surviving a tornado, yet he's the one that created it? Give me a break. Seems to me if they are real believers
they would be glad to get their final reward by his hand--makes sense doesn't it?
June 4, 2008

12:43 p.m.

Suggest removal

spencerr writes:

Like I said Bagel, I am not the man to argue with you. However, you wrote in argument number eight that "evolution does not state that organisms have to increase in complexity."

If they don't increase in complexity and decrease instead, then logically we would have gone from a single-celled organism to something less (or less complex anyway), not humans and whales.

I also think your first argument is flawed because you are not addressing the author's basic point; he thinks that a large system must necessarily evolve all at once or not at all. This makes sense to me. How does an entity that did not previously have eyes separately evolve to have pupils, cornea, lenses. That's not possible. It has to develop all at once, which flies in the face of evolution. Otherwise, the pupil evolving by itself before the others would provide no advantages to the specimen.

Your second argument depends on my earlier statements that there is no way to increase beneficial genes in the gene pool and that when two specimens separate, the gene pool is decreased and not increased. The PhD to which I referred makes a stronger point than I did earlier.

Anyway, I will give you the better link tomorrow. The PhD to which I was referring is better. There is much more detail regarding the fossils point.
June 4, 2008

12:56 p.m.

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rmnreader writes:

PJ - Nobody is or will ever be perfect whether religious or not. But I personally - although not a religious person - do strive to be a good person with morals and compassion to those who are deserving of my compassion while still watching out for #1 (me). Just because I am not religious does not mean that I cannot achive this just as you can - if you choose. Religion does not define you or me - we define ourselves solely on how we choose to present ourselves & deal with everyday life.

Oh brother - Just because I am debating religion does not in any way mean that I condone this guy burning churches. Whether it was a church, school, home or business it is wrong & he is harming the people who gather under that roof.
June 4, 2008

12:56 p.m.

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Bagel writes:

First, one PhD against the thousands of biologists who think evolution is valid does not sway my opinion. See Kurt Wise, who rejected geology simply because the bible did not agree with it, not because he was convinced of error.

Secondly, you keep misunderstanding. Evolution does not say you have to increase OR decrease in complexity. It merely states that beneficial mutations are more likely to pass to the next generation.

A large system not evolving all at once is the basic tenet of evolution. I will take your point about an eye and give you a simple example of how small changes could lead to the complex system we have now:

-Atoms react to photons (light). Specific molecules react to different wavelengths. If an organism's mutation placed several of these molecules together, they would have a simple photocell that could be responsive to visible light. If a sea-based organism developed this, they would notice a decrease in light when something passed above them, which would help them gather prey.
-Years down the line, the progeny of that organism might develop a covering over that photocell to protect it from damage.
-That organism's spawn might develop mutations might make that covering able to open and close. You now have the basic workings of a pinhole camera.

And on and on. A 2 minute thought experiment shows how slowly accumulating beneficial mutations will lead to complex systems.
June 4, 2008

1 p.m.

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Bagel writes:

PJ, your argument boils down to you being uncomfortable with the thought that your ancestors were once different than you. If you want to willfully ignore knowledge to make yourself feel better, that's your right. Personally, I think it's silly. The fact that I descended from something else makes no difference on who I am.
June 4, 2008

1:13 p.m.

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Bagel writes:

Evolution does not actually say that men were descended from today's apes, but that we share a common ancestor.
June 4, 2008

1:34 p.m.

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Bagel writes:

You're setting up a strawman that holds no merit, and still seems to be based on your need to be 'special' rather than on any scientific grounds.

Do I believe that a dog and I were descended from a common ancestor billions of years ago? Yes. Are we different? Clearly. I don't know why I should even have to say that.
June 4, 2008

1:35 p.m.

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Bagel writes:

Also, Bagel's the name of my dog, so you can hunt him for jerky at my house, though I will be displeased to find you doing so.
June 4, 2008

1:51 p.m.

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rmnreader writes:

Marinegrunt - My gma (who played organ for her church PJ) sent me packages with oatmeal chocolate chip cookies & mac & cheese until I was in my early 30's! Only reason she stopped is because she got dementia. Grandma's can be the greatest - thanks for the warm & fuzzy thought!

BTW - respect for your elders just moved both you & PJ up a notch for me. So lacking in today's society that it is sad.

Whole different topic - sorry guys.
June 4, 2008

1:54 p.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

MarineGrunt,

God doesnt let children starve to death, its mans choice. Choice, in my opinion, was god's worst decision. Men are the lowest of beasts and the cowardly of cowards. I agree with you that you dont need to believe in a 'shy fairy' to back yourself up...But it sure helps to think there's something better than this, that, and certainly you.. Perhaps taking your course, the easy course (you live and die, end of story) is the best thing to do. But I guess I'm just thick skinned and thick headed.

I'd rather believe that harder of the two...Blind faith. Am I a zealot? If I we're Muslim, sure. After all, they went berzerk over a few cute silly cartoons. But hey? You can go ahead and burn down a church or two if you want, I promise I wont kill you. I wont respect you, but I wont kill you, I promise.

That would just be...Irrational(?)

Have a good day, and thank you for serving, btw. I appreciate your patriatism.

God bl.....er? I mean, I hope the best for you.

Isaac
June 4, 2008

2:12 p.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

Bagel: If I caught you hunting my dog with ill intent at my house I'd be a bit...more than 'displeased'. Let's just say if it were in my house or in my yard someone wouldnt be whistling while he (or she) worked.

Though I do find you rather enjoyable on this forum conflict so far, I do respect your point of view. The funny thing is, until we both die, I guess its a coin toss huh? Let's just wait and see my friend.

Respectfully,

Isaac
June 4, 2008

2:18 p.m.

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Bagel writes:

Heheh, well the mutt does make my life difficult, but I do love him. Displeased was certainly an understatement for me.

I'm certainly open to the fact that I could be wrong, but I'll just never have 'faith'.
June 4, 2008

2:26 p.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

Bagel,

I'm just so glad to hear. I am a huge animal lover and would not tolerate someone beating my dog (or someone elses) when Im there to stop it. Its just cowardly....If your mad, theres another man out there (I'll volunteer) that is willing to fill that void of anger for you.

Yes, I agree. Faith is a tough thing to swallow, but its the only path for me, and your welcome to walk down yours. we all choice which road to take in the road trip of life.

Isaac
June 4, 2008

2:36 p.m.

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NotUrFriend writes:

Fresh,

Hahaha, we'll just see. :) Frankly, I dont think I'd want to live forever. Let's be civil and wait and see, ok?

Have a good one buddy, stay out of the rain.

Isaac
June 4, 2008

2:44 p.m.

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Heidi writes:

Fresh,

"god was made up to keep your asses working everyday."

I just looked out back and my asses are all working with my slaves, plowing the fields. It's all good here, no matter who is in control!
June 4, 2008

3:42 p.m.

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HolierThanThou writes:

Quit fire bombing churches! Look at the mess it made of this message board.
June 4, 2008

4:20 p.m.

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4gColoNative writes:

A thread out of control, eh?

Belief in god(s)is a sign of being frightened at one's core, whether you'll admit it or not. Frightened that humans don't get more time than the mortal animal body allows. Frightened that us super-animals don't serve some higher purpose... just affecting others and our environments for a finite amount of time and nonetheless becoming dust in the end.
Any frightened person (moron or genius) can ascribe powers to supernatural being(s). Started with the cavemen.
June 4, 2008

5:47 p.m.

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jay writes:

"god" is an imaginary friend for adults
June 5, 2008

9:22 a.m.

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Who_Me writes:

A lot of people have died for Christ, even though they didn't want anything to do with him. Please God, protect me from your followers.

Why does God hate amputees so much? If all of these other purported miracles have taken place through divine intervention, then why are no cases of a human regrowing a severed limb? Don't you think enough amputees have prayed like hell to have their bodies restored?

Your Hell, you burn in it.
June 5, 2008

10:22 p.m.

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mfree1950 writes:

I think that I don't really understand the concept of eternity. The arguments and nit-picking (i.e. what about those people who,ve never been introduced to Jesus, bla, bla, bla ad. infinitum or how can he allow cancer or starvation) are great and endless human thought patterns to dispel the fact that there is a higher intellect and that we are only human.
Ask yourself a question: Can a rabbit or cat speak English or Russian?
How then will we as humans ever totally comprehend the higher levels of spiritual reality?
This group of postings reminds one of all-nighter discussions between dorm-mates at the freshman year of college level.
I choose to have faith because it is the most positive way to go about life for me.
I don't feel I deserve the blessings of family and experiences I've had.
It is also apparent to me in my meager human level of intellect and reasoning that this life is really not random.
The crusades=politics, read your history!
What about the geometry of human existance? Let's see the numbers of dead in the crusades and The Inquisition versus The armenians,
The Ukraine of the 1920's, and WW11.
How about The African Massacres of the last decades?

No. I'm not a member of the the moral majority or the church of what's happening now.

Mike

Home › News › Local News

Four Denver blazes take their toll on families, properties

Early a.m. fires at two churches; one may be arson

Alan Gathright and Hector Gutierrez

Published June 4, 2008 at 7:04 a.m.Updated June 5, 2008 at 5:52 a.m.

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Published June 4, 2008 at 7:04 a.m.
Updated June 5, 2008 at 5:52 a.m.