Candle ignites townhouse in Northglenn

By Bill Scanlon, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Published July 30, 2008 at 9:02 a.m.
Updated July 31, 2008 at 12:53 a.m.

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Photo by Bill Scanlon, Rocky

A sign prohibits entry at the townhome that was heavily damaged by fire this morning.

Photo by Bill Scanlon, Rocky

A fire caused by a candle caused an estimated $45,000 damage this morning in Northglenn, forcing a mother and her daughter to move in with relatives. The family's power had been turned off.

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Comments

July 30, 2008

9:19 a.m.

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HolierThanThou writes:

You know what's cheap?

Socialism for the poor. Yes, that's right, Cleetus.

Socialism for the poor is cheap. A good old-fashioned welfare state that gives money for poor people to keep the lights turned on and feed their kids is cheap.

You know what's expensive and I mean really expensive?

Socialism for the rich: Bailing out giant business failures with tax dollars, funneling a trillion dollars to war profiteers, subsidizing the offshoring of American jobs to China, and not forcing rich @#holes to pay their fair share for their American dream. That's what's expensive.
July 30, 2008

9:29 a.m.

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mytwosense writes:

I believe xcel does have a hardship program, at least I've seen it mentioned on my electric bill. Perhaps this woman wasn't aware of it. At any rate, I can see how energy bills this year can start to spiral out of control.

I feel very bad for this woman and her daughter. Most of us have hit hard times in our lives at some point. Perhaps something can be done, some donations of clothes and other household items they might have lost in the fire. The RMN might know how to reach her.
July 30, 2008

9:34 a.m.

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winterwoman writes:

The hardship program that Xcel has is crap. It takes a long time to get them to accept you into the program and by the time they do you owe a ton of late fees. and they only give a small amount of time to pay what you owe.
July 30, 2008

9:37 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

Sorry, buddy. This has nothing to do with socialism of any kind. This is just about not paying your bills and forgetting to blow out the candle.

Get your priorities right; pay your bills; or adjust your lifestyle as needed.
July 30, 2008

9:38 a.m.

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smidgen writes:

How long have they lived there with out electric???Are they illegle allieans and afraid to ask for help???Something is very wrong.I don't beleive in long time welfair,but short time help is something many need and in out bleak financial out look -many may need short time help very soon!!!!
July 30, 2008

9:47 a.m.

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philvysor writes:

Cowboy, sounds like you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Or maybe you still live with Mommy & Daddy! Sometimes people have their priorities right but something unexpected happened like lets say a layoff. Show some sympathy, one day you may need some in your life.
July 30, 2008

9:49 a.m.

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gs writes:

How about the landlord? No rent plus deductible to be paid. Other tennants complaining. I really don't believe it is governments place to bail people out. It's time to get out of that role.
July 30, 2008

10:03 a.m.

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LoFat writes:

I checked with the Colorado P.U.C. on shutoff rules for utilities customers. I was advised that most of the people being shut off were many months in arrears and had not contacted Excel for any assistance. I was advised that one man was over $7,000.00 in arrears on a single family dwelling. I was also advised that many of the people just do not pay their utility bills, after all they need their utilities and shouldn't be cut off. As far as socialism for the poor, "If ya can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em". if you are cold, put on a sweater. Turn off the lights when you are not in the room. If you are having difficulties,do not let your utilities reach the shut-off condition before you contact the utility. I believe in helping people when they really need help but it seems it is the same people month after month.
July 30, 2008

10:04 a.m.

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mytwosense writes:

Cowboy63: "Get your priorities right; pay your bills; or adjust your lifestyle as needed."

It's not that this isn't sensible advice, but it completely overlooks the plain fact that sometimes life throws us a surprise curve ball. Sometimes one after another, and there's only so much "adjusting one's lifestyle" that can be done.

Like I said before, the majority of us have hit hard times at some point, maybe because of sheer bad luck, maybe through our own lack of foresight, and sometimes a combination of both.

But based on this post and others I've seen from you, it appears you have little empathy for other people. I guess you just post on these forums to demonstrate how superior you think you are to the rest of us imperfect mortals.
July 30, 2008

10:12 a.m.

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farsidefan writes:

Cowpie,
You are an embarrassement to the real cowboy way of life: helping others when they need it.
July 30, 2008

10:18 a.m.

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itZmeD writes:

I can not believe how some people do not even care such a tragic thing happen to this mother and her daughter. They are obviously having a hard time if their power is out now additional financial worries with this fire. PS is the hardest company to work anything out with, if you cant make a monthly payment and get shut off, they expect the whole balance to be paid in full to get it back on....double edged sword? I think so!

Cowboy, you must not even begin to know what it is to be financially strapped, I agree with philvysor "sounds like you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Or maybe you still live with Mommy & Daddy! Sometimes people have their priorities right but something unexpected happened like lets say a layoff. Show some sympathy, one day you may need some in your life." Life is not always a bed of roses!
July 30, 2008

10:21 a.m.

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Newenergycommie writes:

Another battle won by environmentalists. Wind and solar are the only answers, right? Access to cheap electricity should be a civil right. Build nuclear and coal-fired power plants now.

http://www.stopwaronpoor.org/
July 30, 2008

10:24 a.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

What a shame. A family is obviously struggling with a multitude of tragedies.

And the response of some low IQ people..... using their tragedy to whine about McCain, whine about oil companies, and some irrelevant back and forth about philosophical nonsense like socialism.

I can guarantee one thing.... this family could care less about whether some uncaring morons hate McCain or not. They couldn't care less what policies that Democrats and Republican politicians enact for oil companies, and they don't care about philosophical nonsense drivel about socialism. Their concern is about RELEVANT issues... like the damage to their home and how they will cope with an uncertain future.
July 30, 2008

10:28 a.m.

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DJCC writes:

Are people really so cold hearted in this world today that it's necessary to flame someone that falls on hard times? I've sat and read post after post for some time and never felt so compelled to respond as I did after reading cowboy's remarks. Have you never been in a situation where you lost a job and couldn't afford to pay the bills for a couple of months? Have you never suffered an illness and been unable to work thereby losing your source of income?

Good people every day are losing jobs left and right. Everyone is feeling the crunch of higher gas prices at the pump, higher food costs at the grocery store and higher utility costs in the mailbox each and every month. I personally have had that high paying job in the past where I never had to worry about a bill, and was able to save a pretty nice little chunk of change. Enter a major health issue called cancer and boom! it's all gone in a heartbeat.

I've seen all too often people on these boards blaming this party or that party for everything, or it's the illegal's fault we're in the situation we're in. But let me ask you this - what are you people doing to change it or improve it?

In the case of this poor lady and her daughter, we have no idea if she was waiting for payday to pay her bill or what, and XCel is going to shut you off in their time regardless of what arrangements you make with them. I suppose the "adjustment to her life style" would have been to move out onto the street and panhandle on the street corner with her daughter? Have a little heart as it was stated earlier and I have to say, for those flaming this poor family, I truly hope that one day you hit bottom dirt just so we can all sit back and say - PAY YOUR BILLS! and let's see just how easy you find it. No, I'm not going to come back for a battle of the words. That's just craziness the way people tend to want to bash back and forth. Just my 2 cents worth.
July 30, 2008

10:29 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

Reality check. Getting your power turned off takes months - hardly an "unforseen curveball".

You limosine liberals need to buy into the notion of personal responsibility. This story is so full of holes, yet it was enough to hook the social welfare crowd like yourselves.

If you guys were rolled out of bed suddenly at 2am, I have no doubt you would leap up stammering, "MORE PROGRAMS... MORE GOVERNMENT... MORE WELFARE IS THE ANSWER!!!"
July 30, 2008

10:36 a.m.

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Fred writes:

I was watching the news last night and they were talking about the record heat as of late. They were talking about how we’re setting record for consecutive days above 90 degrees.

They then went on to show a financially challenged lady with her doors and windows open because as she explained, in Spanish, that it’s really hot outside. She admitted to being rather used to it though.

The very next scene was of a man whom I think worked for the energy company and was giving statistics on how many dollars have been awarded to low income families already this year to avoid having their power (Air conditioning) cut off. They encouraged ANYONE how is in financial need to contact them immediately.

As I wiped the sweat from my brow, in my home with the windows open and no air conditioner to run even if I chose to, I thought to myself….
Glad I’m paying a rate high enough to subsidize the poor so that they may have air conditioning while I sweat it out.

I can afford air. I chose not to install it off of principle yet I get to subsidize others who have their temps set on 65?

I'm all for helping those in need. I just don't like to see those that I'm subsidizing living more comfortably then my own children.

Then again, as the Spanish speaking lady said, I’m used to it. I’m used to seeing kids in the projects walking out of their government housing wearing $100.00 dollar Nike’s and a hoody to keep them from getting chilled in their apartment with the AC blaring.
July 30, 2008

10:39 a.m.

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Newenergycommie writes:

Big_D,

They had their electricity shut off. Big Oil doesn't supply electricity. If the liberals get their way, wind and solar will be the only sources of new electrical energy. Big Oil is heavily invested in those two energy sources. Why? Because they will make a killing. They only make 8% on oil. The returns on wind and solar boggle the mind. (High capital costs, low operating costs, very revenues and plus tax subsidies). Projects can be financed with tax credits alone. Tax payers get to pay for the plant and Big Oil gets 20% plus profit. The sheeple are screaming for a higher priced less reliable source of energy to save us all from climate change. Big Oil will be happy to help.

Look for more stories like this. Xcel wants higher cost renewable power sources because they can make more money. The PUC wants higher cost renewables because the members where installed by Ritter and he is trying to save the world and doesn’t care about Colorado. After all who gets hurt, just some poor people. We can lower electric prices; you libs just will not let us. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
July 30, 2008

10:41 a.m.

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mytwosense writes:

Cowboy: "You limosine liberals need to buy into the notion of personal responsibility. This story is so full of holes, yet it was enough to hook the social welfare crowd like yourselves.

If you guys were rolled out of bed suddenly at 2am, I have no doubt you would leap up stammering, "MORE PROGRAMS... MORE GOVERNMENT... MORE WELFARE IS THE ANSWER!!!"

Yeah, I gotta agree with the poster who pointed out you don't sound like a true cowboy. You just sound like a bitter little man sitting in your glass house throwing rocks at everyone else...and I imagine that nutcase who shot up a liberal church this week had a very similar outlook on liberals that you do.
July 30, 2008

10:53 a.m.

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mytwosense writes:

TryThinking: "Big Oil is heavily invested in those two energy sources."

Not really, although BP is probably doing more than the other big oil companies, or at least according to the PR they are. But for the most part, Big Oil may have some nominal investments in alternative energy, but more of their excess cash is going back to stock buybacks, dividends, and PR campaigns to clean up their image. And this is easily found information in respected financial publications, it's not a liberal rant of any sort.

The major solar and other alternative energy players are from a brand new breed of innovators and entrepreneurs. If you're interested in the industry, a good site to check out from time to time is www.greentechmedia.com

They really have a good check on the pulse of major industry happenings.
July 30, 2008

11:05 a.m.

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Fred writes:

Froward,
No compassion? Nice personal attack.
I have no need to put my charitable deeds on the table. I do not need accolades or thanks from the unnamed internet masses to perform the acts of kindness and generosity my family provides.

I simply despise being forced to contribute to people who in many cases are living better off then my own children. My own children have hand me down shoes and clothes and live in a house half the size we can afford with no AC because I believe in conservation.
You see, I act on my beliefs instead of being a hypocritical internet soapbox queen like most that spend the majority of their day bickering on this very site. From your history of posts you seem to fall into that category.
July 30, 2008

11:18 a.m.

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ShadyGrady writes:

Well my friend
You gotta say:

I won't pay, I won't pay ya, no way
(now now) Why don't you get a job
Say no way, say no way ya, no way
(now now) Why don't you get a job

(courtesy Dexter Holland)
July 30, 2008

11:23 a.m.

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NDeeZ writes:

HolierThanThou writes:

You know what's cheap?

Socialism for the poor. Yes, that's right, Cleetus.

Socialism for the poor is cheap. A good old-fashioned welfare state that gives money for poor people to keep the lights turned on and feed their kids is cheap.

You know what's expensive and I mean really expensive?

Socialism for the rich: Bailing out giant business failures with tax dollars, funneling a trillion dollars to war profiteers, subsidizing the offshoring of American jobs to China, and not forcing rich @#holes to pay their fair share for their American dream. That's what's expensive.

WoW!!! Right on!!!
July 30, 2008

11:24 a.m.

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Cowboy63 writes:

"Cowboy63 Obvously has never had to decide economically whether to eat, pay rent or the utility Bill."

You couldn't be more wrong if you guys tried. I've had to make plenty of hard choices down the line and they all came with a price.

Once you've been around a while you'll start to understand the saying: "You bite it - you chew it."

If the story was updated to say that they were spending their money on crack - would that change your opinions? Like I said; this story is so full of holes, but you fell for the old "more social welfare" angle hook, line, and sinker.

I may be a Cowboy, but you all are the cattle.
July 30, 2008

11:31 a.m.

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Broomhilda writes:

You don't have to be "born with a silver spoon in your mouth" to get sick of feeling guilty about people who make poor choices with sad consequences. Many people are struggling but there are also a lot of programs and kindhearted people providing help. I see it everyday.
The sad truth is many people never learn common sense survival, and some us are sick of working hard paying our taxes just to feel guilty that it's never ever enough! That doesn't mean that we FAVOR throwing money at big corporations or that we are Republicans!
July 30, 2008

11:31 a.m.

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Steve_In_Denver writes:

GS...you don't think it's governments place to bail people out? But I'm sure you think it's perfectly fine to that government bails big business out. I think you need to rethink your position.
July 30, 2008

11:31 a.m.

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Newenergycommie writes:

mytwosense,

My comment was in response to the “Blame Big Oil and their profits rants above”.

I'm in the industry. BP has virtually cornered the market in the purchase of utility sized wind turbines. You didn't dispute the fact that these sources of energy are the most expensive sources and are the least reliable. That is a fact. If you raise the price of electricity by pushing renewable technologies before they are commercially competitive the poor will suffer. Do you agree?

The Sierra Club and California approve of only one kind of fossil power, natural gas fired combined cycle. With gas at $13/mmBTU the fuel cost alone for such a plant $91.00/MWhr. Wind is in the $70 range and solar is in the $200 range. Coal is closer to $17.00. Which one will keep the lights on for more people?

We have the Saudi Arabia of energy in Wyoming and Montana, namely low sulfur western coal. Guess which fuel is off limits for new development in USA but can be used without restriction by China, India and Abu Dhabi and others? Even the German environmental community is putting coal back in the mix.
July 30, 2008

11:39 a.m.

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fntsymtn writes:

I suppose if you compare the investments that big oil has made in alternative energy research to their other investments, then I would say the investment has been nominal, but I hardly consider billions of dollars of existing and planned investments nominal.
July 30, 2008

11:43 a.m.

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mtripodo writes:

Froward: When you say "one day he will feel the sting of this failing economy brought on by the current administration."

Where to begin? You do realize that oil prices were very stable and the economy was growing by leaps and bounds until the Dems got elected to congress and screwed everything up for the rest of us, don't you?
July 30, 2008

11:48 a.m.

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philvysor writes:

Fred, you complain about the people who live in the projects wearing the $100.00 shoes and jackets, well you should think about where they recieve these items. Goodwill, Salvation Army, they may even be hand me downs from family members. Heck they might even be some of the items you and your kids donated. So until you have too go to these places and shop don't knock it! Between you and Cowpie who is worse.
July 30, 2008

11:59 a.m.

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philvysor writes:

You don't have to be "born with a silver spoon in your mouth" to get sick of feeling guilty about people who make poor choices with sad consequences. Many people are struggling but there are also a lot of programs and kindhearted people providing help. I see it everyday.
The sad truth is many people never learn common sense survival, and some us are sick of working hard paying our taxes just to feel guilty that it's never ever enough! That doesn't mean that we FAVOR throwing money at big corporations or that we are Republicans!

Hilda, one day you or a family member will make a bad choice or have a sad consequence, and when that day comes may the people you know in this nation turn to you and your family and say. " I AM SICK OF FEELING GUILTY FOR THESE KIND OF PEOPLE."
July 30, 2008

12:09 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Big_D hello. I do not think that anyone does not think this is a tragedy. No one and calling people names does not help. What led to this tragedy? It would be nice to know the details. Would it not? Still a tragedy, but details can lead to answers, lead to solutions and understanding of the situation. Not to sell papers, not to sell ads........but to tell the whole story and use that story to help others.
July 30, 2008

12:10 p.m.

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Fred writes:

philysor,
Nice assumptions but your wrong. I knew and lived among the people I was writing about.
They weren’t buying from the Salvation Army or goodwill. They were selling their food stamps and going to the mall to buy their clothing. I witnessed on MANY occasions.
Had they been going to the Salvation Army or good will I’d have asked for a RIDE instead of walking and taking the city bus.

The way in which they spent their money is why they remain in the projects while I got out. While they were PAYING for $100.00 Nikes I was enlisting to EARN my way through school. Turns out that didn’t cover everything so I worked several jobs and was strapped with student loans while working through school.
So take your uniformed opinions elsewhere.
July 30, 2008

12:15 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Lets do a "What if" scenario......

What if the fire was caused by an unattended candle. What if they were not home at the time. How about for argument sake, they went to a movie or show? What would that do to peoples thinking?
July 30, 2008

12:18 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

Trythinking: "'I'm in the industry. BP has virtually cornered the market in the purchase of utility sized wind turbines. You didn't dispute the fact that these sources of energy are the most expensive sources and are the least reliable. That is a fact. If you raise the price of electricity by pushing renewable technologies before they are commercially competitive the poor will suffer. Do you agree?"

First of all, I'm skeptical about your claim that BP has cornered the market. Do you have a source?

As for your question, pray tell us, who is charge of deciding when a product is "commercially competitive"? That seems to me to be a market decision. At any rate, as there are a great deal of alternative energy companies actually doing business NOW, and putting up both commercial plants and residential systems, I would say the market has decided it's now "commercially competitive"!

TryThinking: "We have the Saudi Arabia of energy in Wyoming and Montana, namely low sulfur western coal. Guess which fuel is off limits for new development in USA but can be used without restriction by China, India and Abu Dhabi and others?"

You make it sound like nothing is happening there even though Wyoming is the leading producer of coal in this country, in fact, there is a huge energy boom happening in Wyoming.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if some companies are backing out of their plans to build new coal plants because they see wind as more viable. Wyoming, with all it's vast stretches of plains, is an excellent place for a wind boom, too.
July 30, 2008

12:24 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

Froward: "I Too despise being forced to contribute to people who in many cases are living better off then my own children.
like Haliburton, exxon/mobil or blackwater. even sen Stevens pisses me off.
or my tax/gas dollars going to Dubi, Iraq, Saudi Arabia...

helping other AMERICANS however, I do not mind."

I second that. I wonder if Fred had the same sense of outrage when the news got out that Halliburton was overcharging the government billions of dollars?

Probably not.
July 30, 2008

12:35 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Cowboy may have been blunt and a bit brutal, but nowhere did he or anyone else say that it was not a tragedy that the fire occurred. I would have put it differently for sure. But to not create dialogue and jump to assumptions about his heart or lack thereof is not fair to anyone. Plays much better on a blog..........Difference is on the circumstances of the fire and how it is being put forth in the media.
July 30, 2008

12:35 p.m.

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Fred writes:

Man oh man....the assumptions on here.

Corporations bilking taxpayers of "billions of dollars" should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

And sense you want to quote Froward....

Froward and yourself toe that party line tooth and nail. I’ve read many of your posts over a long period of time.

How do you rectify your stance that you believe in “helping American’s” and not those from the Middle East yet clearly support illegal immigration or more specifically not enforcing our immigration laws?

Sounds to me like you two are a bit scared of those “brown” people from the Middle East.

Go ahead…tell us the truth. You don’t really STAND for anything. You simply spout off what you’ve heard and read on your far left news sites yet you can’t even see the contradictions.

Sheep. Plain and simple. Your coat is just of a different color then Not-chase-B’s.

It must really be depressing to be a partisan hack. You people on BOTH sides need to let go of the hate. It’s clouding your judgment.
July 30, 2008

12:37 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Big D and others,

Cowboy also put forth a very controversial scenario and he was chastized for that scenario........Is my scenario controversial and therefore lacking in heart
July 30, 2008

12:46 p.m.

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davies writes:

I met a nice struggling single mom back in the 80s in Minnesota. She had holes in her winter boots, but always had cheap Schmidt beer in her fridge. She lived in a subsidized apartment, but she had a decent state job. She got off work at 3:30 and liked to go to happy hour a couple times a week because her day care service would keep her son until 6 PM, and she liked to unwind before going back to single motherhood.

They moved in with me. It was kind of a pain because the electric to her apartment had been shut off, and a couple of the rooms were pretty dark. We eventually paid off her delinquent utility bills, back rent, and a judgement from a car accident when she was uninsured. I was amazed when I did her federal tax return and filled out the Earned Income Credit form: she got a bigger refund than what had been withheld from her check in the first place.

I married her, adopted her son, and we had two more kids. She was for the most part a good and kind wife and mother for twenty years. Then she got restless, and now we're divorced. Too bad, but the point is she proved to me that she could be a productive and responsible member of society for those 20 years. Now she's struggling on her own again, and I don't really know what to think about it. Maybe some people are just not cut out to make it entirely on their own.

Sorry, that's it.
July 30, 2008

1:06 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

COLib, no, Cowboy didn't say this wasn't a tragedy. Nor did he acknowledge that it was. I'm sure you have the same ability to scroll up and read just like the rest of us, but I'll save you some time. Here is what he did say about this woman fleeing her home that was on fire:

"This is just about not paying your bills and forgetting to blow out the candle. Get your priorities right; pay your bills; or adjust your lifestyle as needed."

and..."You limosine liberals need to buy into the notion of personal responsibility. This story is so full of holes, yet it was enough to hook the social welfare crowd like yourselves."

But hey, if you want to take up the guy's defense, knock yourself out.
July 30, 2008

1:06 p.m.

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cooperjtd writes:

First off, Gene, you are a friggen idiot. I'm sure if your wife forgets to put the seat down for you, you go off and say 'A preview of U. S. A. under the OsamabamaMessiah' Somebody really needs to shut down his account.
Now that I got that off my chest, I feel sorry for the two, no renters insurance, not enough money to pay basic bills. The increase in utilities is outlandish to say the least. I currently live in Dallas (born and raised in Denver) I have a small house, keep it at a cool 87 at night and hardly any lights on ever, my utilities were over $500 (electric) last month. the state was deregulated some time ago and things have just run crazy from what I've been told. The biggest outrage is that the utility company doesn't tell you what they are charging you per unit, until AFTER you use their service. It seems to me that maybe there should be an investigation as to the gouging of consumers by utility companies.
I wish the family luck on their struggle during this tough time.
July 30, 2008

1:18 p.m.

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davies writes:

Hey there my2: I don't think the Cowboy is totally indefensible. For your consideration, this is just another minor story about a house fire in which no one was injured, except for the fact (in the headline) about the woman burning candles because her power was shut off, and the candle ended up causing the fire.

So think what you may about Cowboy's compassion or lack thereof, one can agree that objectively speaking, the newsworthiness of this article is due to unpaid electric bills.

Of course, the arguments are speculative: is she a good mother facing unforseeable difficult circumstances? Or will it turn out that she's an abusive, irresponsible crack user or some such thing? My point being, we don't know either way.
July 30, 2008

1:20 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

Fred: "How do you rectify your stance that you believe in “helping American’s” and not those from the Middle East yet clearly support illegal immigration or more specifically not enforcing our immigration laws?"

I do support the people of Iraq. I think it's terrible we've put them in the crossfire of an immoral war that has killed probably hundreds of thousands of them at this point.

And it's an immoral war because we were lied into it, and young American soldiers are dying because of that lie.

We went there because Saddam posed a threat to a tightly controlled supply of oil on the market. Yep, we didn't go to Iraq to get more of their oil on the market, but vice versa. Fast forward several years later to $4 gas and Big Oil pigging out at the trough...that's what our soldiers are dying for, and if you support that war still, you have their blood on your hands as far as I'm concerned.

Moving on to the people of Afghanistan...I support military action there to stamp out the Taliban once and for all, and gee, maybe to even catch bin Laden. Remember him, or is he irrelevant to you, too? I thought we should have helped Afghanistan when I first heard about the Taliban, which was long before 9/11. We didn't do anything then because greedy opportunists in this country wanted to get a pipeline into Afghanistan...and they even invited members of the Taliban over here to court them!

Let's direct our attention now to the people of Saudi Arabia. Can't say I supported the removal of our troops there after 9/11, considering the majority of the hijackers were from there, including their mastermind, who had long demanded we remove our troops from his homeland.

So, there's my position on supporting the people of the Middle East.
July 30, 2008

1:33 p.m.

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Newenergycommie writes:

mytwosense,

Doubt my background all you want, but I know this business.

Try to buy a 1.5 MW wind turbine for delivery any time between now and late 2010. Call GE, Vestas, Clipper or any of the other wind power suppliers. If you find one or 50 1.5 MW machines with a 2009 deliver date, I have a nice commission check waiting for you. Just Goggle "BP and wind". They may not have "cornered the market" but they sure have tied up their share of manufacturing slots going forward. The other huge player is FP&L.

The reason a lot of alternative energy companies are doing business now comes down two factor, subsidies and making conventional froms of energy more expensive. A wind farm can be fully funded using a combination of accelerated tax depreciation and production tax credits, both on the backs of tax payers. And yet the energy is still priced above coal power and requires mandates and transmission line subsidies for implementation. A wind farm only uses the transmission line 1/3 of the time, but the rate payers get to pay for it 100% of the time. That is a little hidden subsity. Colorado's SB100 let's rate payers pay for the transmission lines before they are built to help wind.

Coal is cheaper. There is no debate about that. Xcel’s cheapest coal plant makes energy 24 x 7 for $15.60/MWhr. The most expensive coal plant makes power 24 x 7 for $40.07/ MWhr. The wind farms have a cost about $ 54.12 in interest costs alone (@ 7%). The only things cheaper and more reliable than coal are nuclear and hydro.

Why aren't new coal plants being built? Sierra Club and CO2 scare.

http://www.enn.com/top_stories/articl...

Debate it all you want, renewable raise the price of power. If they didn’t they would be installed without mandates and without subsidies. The most prevalent renewable, hydropower, was installed in spite of the fact that it was renewable not because it was. It was economically competitive.

As an energy supplier and project developer, the price of power cannot be high enough. It is so much easier to finance a plant when the power price is above $100/ MWhr. $200/ MWhr is better. As a human being and a consumer and someone that wants what is best for the country and the state, the power price cannot be low enough. The environmental community doesn’t care. They want high prices regardless of who is harmed. They continually claim that renewables are cheaper, with zero, zip nada proof and volumes of proof to the contrary.
July 30, 2008

1:34 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

My2Sense, Is my scenario callous and without heart? Yes or no
July 30, 2008

1:38 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Big D What is my excuse? Excuse for what?
July 30, 2008

1:41 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

COLib, I'm going to assume the candle actually WAS unattended. Unless they watched it ignite their house and did nothing, which seems highly unlikely.

So no, your scenario wasn't callous, but I really don't understand the point you are trying to make. Unless you're attempting to compare your post to Cowboy's posts.

He wasn't conjecturing about what actually happened. He was assuming this woman made irresponsible lifestyle choices, best I can tell. There was no sympathy, no empathy...and no deviation from his usual posts everywhere else on this forum.
July 30, 2008

1:49 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

TryThinking, your point that renewable energy raises the price of power isn't exactly your original point. Which seemed to be your usual finger-pointing at liberals for every thing under the sun you want to find fault with (a considerable amount of things, at that). In this case, environmentalists are responsible for poor people not being able to pay their energy bills.

I've seen on my own electric bill some sort of renewable energy "surcharge," along with numerous other surcharges that require a tax accountant to figure out. Or rather, a savvy marketing exec. The environmentalists didn't put that surcharge there, Xcel did. Now, if you seriously want to defend Xcel's practice of assessing countless surcharges to their bills, go ahead. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see you choose your predictable side with the Goliaths of this world.

Yep, the poor huge utility companies and oil industry - the richest in this world - are victims of the evil environmentalists are to blame for everything. CO2 doesn't trap heat, coal doesn't pollute, and the carbon industry folks truly just have the public's interest at heart, never their own.

Anyway, what is your solution? To ban any product from coming to the market until it's dirt cheap? But that's not really a "free market" solution, now is it?
July 30, 2008

2:04 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Again Big D I changed Cowboys scenario.......is it heartless too?
July 30, 2008

2:05 p.m.

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Rallyracer7 writes:

Too bad.... Sounds like her kids should have been helping her out a little sooner. I feel bad that they were out of power, and now are out of a home of their own, but if her daughter has a place of her own, why didn't she help her mother out? I am just so confused as to how people fall on hard times when I see "help needed" and "now hiring" all over the state. I do think they need some help and it was a great thought by whoever posted that, but as another person said, why are we paying for the poors misfortunes, when many of us ourselves have cut back on things we need so as not to fall on hard times. I think many people blame the government for their own problems, when it is they who are causing them. Go to school, get an education, its free, and will allow you to get a job. I am sorry people are living on the streets, but its much easier to beg than work for what you want.
July 30, 2008

2:07 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Big D I will rephrase. Cowboy stated crack was reason..... My scenario is that what if she were out at a show or movie........and the townhome went up in flames.......would that change the story of her spending money on entertainment rather than other necessities.............. How would the news story play then on the RMN?
July 30, 2008

2:14 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

rallyracer, how do you know this woman didn't have a job? Do you think having a job equals financial security? Hate to break it to you, but it doesn't.

I guess you're not aware of the large block of "working poor" in this country. A number that is expanding, not shrinking.
July 30, 2008

2:15 p.m.

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Newenergycommie writes:

mytwosense,

Pick a subject. My original point was that Big Oil doesn't sell electricity so why do folks like forward69 blame them for these people's electricity related plight.

You are showing your strips. Xcel can only make money that they are allowed to make based on the PUC. They are a regulated monopoly. They only way to increase profits is to implement higher and higher cost resource. They still make the same regulated return, but on more dollars deployed. Xcel and environmentalist don't have the same goals, they just both get what they want by pushing higher priced renewables. Check out the background on Matt Baker, Ritter's newest monkey-boy on the PUC. Tell me he wants to keep power prices low or if he is an environmental extremist.

I am neutral. Do you want $17 coal power or $200 solar? Pick one and live with the results. But don’t b#tch about the price or whine about people not being able to pay their bills.

The lesson is over for today. I need to keep the power on for your air conditioning.
July 30, 2008

2:28 p.m.

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davies writes:

My2: "The environmentalists didn't put that surcharge there, Xcel did. Now, if you seriously want to defend Xcel's practice of assessing countless surcharges to their bills, go ahead."

Please. Utility companies are State regulated, and so are the fees they are permitted to charge their customers. The persons/legislators who mandated that utilities provide some of their energy from renewable energy sources, are doubtless the ones who agreed to allow the fees to be added to our utility bills. When the government mandates that utilities incur extra expenses, the government is obligated to allow the utilities to recover those expenses. The renewable energy surcharge on your electric bill was indeed most likely put there by 'environmentalists'.

You should understand how business works if you're going to comment on it.
July 30, 2008

2:31 p.m.

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rickg19611 writes:

"I Too despise being forced to contribute to people who in many cases are living better off then my own children."

You mean like despising corrupt politicians in Denver that offer their fatcat party bosses sleazy "no-tax" gasoline deals at the taxpayers expense? The same fatcats that have made millions of dollars from crooked real estate deals with convicted felons and book sales to morons dumb enough to worship at a corrupt politician's feet? And then have their mindless supporters make excuses for such corruption?

CONFISCATE the hundreds of millions of wasted political dollars raised this year to run endless putrid ads on TV and distribute it to the needy.

FINE the corrupt politicians that approved the illegal sales of tax free gasoline to the fatcat buddies and donate every cent to the needy.

OUTLAW political conventions done in person and take the $200 million these needless dog and pony shows cost ($60 million for security for ONE convention alone) and donate every cent to the needy.

If a moron politician wants to move his "speech" from one location to a more expensive location (one that results in an additional $9.7 million in security), then make that moron cough up 3 times as much in donations to the needy. Make the mindless morons that attend that "free" event (taxpayer funded) pay $100 per seat. And donate every cent to the needy.

It's time for hypocrites to stop worshipping at the feet of corrupt fatcat politicians, and start ACTING out the "principles" they claim to support.
July 30, 2008

2:32 p.m.

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Rallyracer7 writes:

No Sense,

I am aware of the working poor, I'm keeping their lights on, while i go to school, while i work two jobs, while I live my life responsibly. If they were educated, which public school again is "FREE", as well as being educated by the mostly liberal media about turning their lights off when they leave the room, about opening the windows and turning off the A/C during the night, about many energy saving methods they wouldn't be the "working poor". It is unbelievable that I can have time to work two jobs and go to school, and afford to race a car, while the poor are complaining that they don't get enough help because they sit on their butts when they get home. I understand children take a lot of extra time and money away, so why start a family before you are financially secure? People are making excusses not money. I would be willing to bet that if half of the poor people knew how to properly handle their money, they would not be poor. STOP SPENDING ON THINGS YOU DON'T NEED!!!!!!!!!
July 30, 2008

2:41 p.m.

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timeandagain writes:

mytwosense and froward69 sure seem to have a lot of posting time here at the RMN... I hope they are also doing their fair share of work so that they can earn a taxable income (thereby giving their altruistic BS some credibility). My suspicion is that they both TAKE far more than they CONTRIBUTE. Hence their pompous and unrealistic perspective...

I am willing to bet that the two of them combined do not earn more than $45,000/Year. That amounts to a very paltry tax contribution for a couple of loudmouth "givers"!!
July 30, 2008

2:49 p.m.

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Newenergycommie writes:

Rally,

I'm envious. I raced a GT4 road racer back in the day. Second kid came along and the racecar went bye. Love the kids, but I do miss the smell of race gas and hot carbon fiber brakes. Always wanted to do rally, ever since Hans Stuck schooled the SCCA field, including the other Audi driver, in a rain race.
July 30, 2008

3:03 p.m.

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Rallyracer7 writes:

It's a blast Trythinking. No need to be envious though, i'm not in the pro series haha. Still just racing the local SCCA races and trying to make a better name for myself. I am invious of you road racers. One of my good friends races in the Speed GT series in a mustang, and I can't tell you how much fun that would be. I love driving on the dirt though, and the trees make it thrilling as nothing else.
July 30, 2008

3:04 p.m.

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philvysor writes:

Ok so now we know the lady was not on crack nor was she a illegal immigrant. She is not someone who does not want to work or does she live in the projects and sells her food stamps for $100.00 shoes. But she is a person whom had surgery less than a month ago. So much for 3/4 of the assumptions.
July 30, 2008

3:15 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

Wow, rallyracer, what a fine upstanding citizen you are! Did you get your thrill for the day bragging to a bunch of strangers on the Internet what a perfect human being you are?

And timeandagain, I'm self-employed, so I can spend my time however I please. On the other hand, you're most likely posting here on your employer's dime.
July 30, 2008

3:15 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Phil, Big_D and others that have crapped on everyone here for being "insensitive". Most on here that you are accusing of being insensitive have talked about the RMN story being pathetic and the only reason it was a story in the first place was the Utility angle. Others wanted to consider the fact that personal responsibility can play a significant role in what happened here.

Phil, Big_D M2S and others called people names and Big_D used a-holes............

Phil, Big_D, M2S. How did the fire start. What were the circumstances that led to the fire? Easy question, but much easier to blast others. I have not blasted you. Never. Asking to find the details of what happened, apply logic of those results to:
1. Validity and "sensationalizing" of this story by the RMN
2. How those results are associated to personal responsibility and the examples that people have given of sacrifice and priorities in our lives.

Simple task. But may be difficult to do so objectively and not resort to assumptions and name calling. You up for it?
July 30, 2008

3:21 p.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

Froward,

Serious question.....still trying to get info from you regarding your solar and alternative energy for you and your company. will give out email if you would like. Looking into an eco consulting thing with residential housing............would like to get your feedback.....and dammmit need a loan, you rich sob :-)
July 30, 2008

3:23 p.m.

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Rallyracer7 writes:

No, Two Cent, I wasn't bragging, I simply stating that if a human, black, white, purple, green, orange, poor, uneducated, etc. puts their mind to something instead of sitting around, they can achieve much more than they would have previously believed. Also, I do feel bad for the woman and her teen, I would not like to be in that situation one bit. As I said, it was a great idea posted that RMN should help us give to them. On the other hand, because we were on the subject of poor people, I like everyone else pay taxes in order to fund public schools, thus making them "Free". I am more than happy to do that, because it means we will have an educated population that understands the meaning of the American Dream, and that they will be able to contribute constructively to our society.
July 30, 2008

3:46 p.m.

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rmnreader writes:

I just want to put out there that just because public education is free it does not mean that everyone has the opportunity to get an education. Family illness, absent parent or parents as well as the quality of our education are just a few hurdles that come to mind. Doesn't Colorado have one of the lowest ranked education systems in the US? Not everyone grew up like me with a good education system (not CO) and a supportive father who worked his fingers to the bone to make sure that I knew I could achieve anything that I wanted. As I have said with other articles - a youth's brain has not fully matured until the are in their early 20's - for some that is too late to erase the past & start over or maybe they just don't know how. It is just a vicious cycle that has effected people who are now parents & grandparents struggling to try to teach something that they were never taught. I guess that I just think everyone on here should be a little more open minded about the plight of your fellow man or woman and instead of griping about where they are now how about trying to help them go forward?
July 30, 2008

4:09 p.m.

Suggest removal

fntsymtn writes:

forward, if you feel it is unfair that you pay less in taxes than your employees, why don't you donate the difference to your government? Or better yet, your employees. You are talking about your feelings regarding YOUR taxes, right?

And, of course, you are talking about total tax, not income tax, correct and you feel that by increasing your total income tax contribution you can make up for the gap between your after-income-tax income and your employees after-income-tax income. So, why don't you pay yourself the same that you pay your employees and clear up your conscience, or equally distribute your companies revenues between your employees. That way everyone that works for your company has the exact same tax burden?

Warren Buffet could do the same, but instead chooses to ride on the backs of his employees to wealth. I don't see him divesting all of his wealth for the benefit of the public or his employees, only making meaningless statements regarding how the government doesn't make him (and everyone else) do the "right" thing.

Prove to me that you are personally righting the injustices done to your employees regarding their tax percentage, and I might take your terrible feelings under consideration, and possibly consider your ploy for "taxing the rich".
July 30, 2008

4:12 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Big_D

You can call me names you can throw a tantrum at my deceit, etc...................You are more than welcome to do that.........but I have a few words for you and comment before the punch line.

Fish On! Fish On!

Reading this story I DID agree with Cowboy in his statement that this story has SOOO many holes in it. I did not agree with the way he presented his views. It was callous. It was not wrong but it was callous. With this said, I decided to look at other sites of reference for this story. IT DID HAVE Many holes in it. In my mind the RMN was COMPLETELY negligent in its reporting duties. It created this story without regard to details and facts. This story has been on the front page of the online version here all day. The Post buried it early on in the Local section. The blog on Post was less than 10 and most were like the ones you have been criticizing(sp).
YOU and OTHERS accused some of us for being callous for questioning and putting personal responsibilities at the top of the docket here. Based upon the 9:02am story and even the 1:08pm update to this story, you had some cause for argument with us regarding callous thoughts. But then you accuse me of my "scenario" and not knowing the facts as being callous. Well here is the punch line Big_D

My scenario WAS FACT. Ms Hereford left a candle burning as they could not afford to pay their Excel bill to go to a Movie.

SO Big_D as you refused to answer my 2 questions, I will however answer yours. 1. Very sad. Even with answering your question #2 I am still very sad. It is heartbreaking and 2. YES I do question their priorities of responsibility. I too would love to go to an airconditioned movie, but I have made other priority of bills and self preservation. Saving for a rainy day as they say. Because we all know there are rainy days.

Some smelled a news rat and by golly there was a rat. I did see I did see a rat.........errr putty cat........
July 30, 2008

4:19 p.m.

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happymike44 writes:

This poor woman has lost everything.
Yes it is not the smartest thing to leave candles burning.
While you are sleeping.
She was without lights through no fault of her own.
Many people who get sick can't get back on their feet.
It boiled down to paying rent and buying food or having lights and going homeless.
I hope you people understand it takes very little to lose you foothold in this world.
All I can say is I hope she is going to be alright and wish her the best.
I myself know what it feels like to fall ill and have to go it alone.
Just call me someone who understands and knows what t feels like first hand.
July 30, 2008

4:20 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

SSqured. READ the true facts of this story. Levels of detail have been reported since 9ish this morning that detail the facts............

Again Cowboy may have been crude and over the top, but in the end HE WAS RIGHT. Sorry Cowboy, dont mean to hack on you nor did I mean any disrespect.

Nor do I mean any disrespect to Big_D. I should have divulged earlier on, but really wanted to see how our political beliefs overshadow the True facts of a story and the role that a News Agency has on what is truly correct in the way we look at news. This is affected on both sides of the aisle.

Enjoy the evening
July 30, 2008

4:29 p.m.

Suggest removal

GILPINMAN writes:

I know what it is like to not have heat, electricity, have to hunt and fish just to eat, I know what it is like to have lost my home, my job. Both my parents were teachers when i grew up and we had very limited resorces, we had no money to pay bills and we didn't have the things others had. As a child and as an adult I have gone through many hard times. This was a sad story but we should all learn a lesson just like our parents and grandparents, put out that dang candle when you go to bed! I might be in the same position as them but i decided to get an education and better myself. I don't have to worry about the bills like I used to, because of the choice I made to go back to school and better my self. I feel sory for these people and I know how hard things can be. I learned that if knowlage is power then edcuation is empowerment! The way our society works schools are our last priority so in a way this is all our fault for not edcuating ourselves or each other. years ago every one used candles on christmas trees and through edcuation and experiance we colectivly figured out that was a bad idea. We are all to blame for the stupidity in our society if only because we don't care enough about our neibors and friends enough to empower them or ourselves to make the right decisions. just a thought.
July 30, 2008

4:35 p.m.

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Newenergycommie writes:

Rally,

You shouldn't have mentioned the racecar. Now you've done it. That is a politically incorrect way to spend your hard earned money. You should be working harder and sending the money that you waste on a noisy global warming causing thrill sport to Obama. He knows better how to spend your money than you do. He is going to take it anyway, so if you donate it you can be a self-important liberal, which after all the pinnacle of what we all strive to be. Trade the racecar for a Prius and you can really look down your nose at the great unwashed. You to can opine on things that you know nothing about and tell the world how it should be done.

I'm sorry writing "Prius" made me throw up in my mouth a little.
July 30, 2008

4:39 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Happy Mike and Gilpen Man. They were at the movies and left the candle burning!!!!!!!!! Not sleeping
July 30, 2008

4:41 p.m.

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fntsymtn writes:

forward,

curious, if you have, then your statement that it is unfair is without basis ... how can it be unfair if it's not actually happening?
July 30, 2008

4:58 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

Froward thanks for the links. Most are on my favorites. You had no way of knowing. Was looking for real world experience. Sorry to cause a waste of your time.
July 30, 2008

6:26 p.m.

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mytwosense writes:

COLib: "SSqured. READ the true facts of this story. Levels of detail have been reported since 9ish this morning that detail the facts............"

and: "My scenario WAS FACT. Ms Hereford left a candle burning as they could not afford to pay their Excel bill to go to a Movie."

Well, I don't see where it's reported they were "at the movies." This fire was called in after midnight. What makes you think they weren't home asleep when it started?
July 30, 2008

7:14 p.m.

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fntsymtn writes:

$.02

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_100...

Unless The Post has it all wrong, they actually were at the movies.
July 30, 2008

9:09 p.m.

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fiesty writes:

I have to hope that Cowboy is posting such drivel just to get the reaction he has, since the only other alternative is that he believes the nonsense he is spouting.

I'm a strong advocate for personal responsibility and financial planning for rough times, getting financial counseling, and can't stand people that expect the government to take care of them (like N.O.); however, even I recognize that sometimes there are events that no one can be prepared for unless they are millionaires! Let me give you three examples that have actually happened to folks I know, and what I guess is Cowboy's [and others of his ilk] response:

- Like DJCC said, sudden medical conditions can devastate you with the bills, especially combined with losing a job.
"Sorry ma'am, but you should have been personally responsible and planned for the possibility of a $875,000 medical bill."

- What about an elderly or disabled person who is already frugally living on a tight budget (often choosing between medication and food, or what medications are "essential"), and then fuel/food costs soar through the roof?
"Sorry sir, you paid into social security but it's not keeping with inflation, and your company fired you right before you were eligible for retirement [hooray for an 'at will' state!] so it's your fault for not taking responsibility for your future [retirement]."

- And then there's the single mother that did plan ahead; compared to the the financial advisor's recommendation of six months, had 12 months worth of income in savings. However, she lost her job in a round of layoffs. She couldn't get a job for over 19 months, because employers were laying off folks not hiring; she couldn't even get a job at a fast food place because no habla espanol. The higher fuel and food prices, especially with the added trips for interviews, cut into her savings that much faster. She accepted some help from family, managed a few odd jobs around the neighborhood, and didn't even take unemployment until the last four months. When she realized her job specialty wasn't in great demand anymore, she looked into retraining, but no school would approve a student loan because she had no income and a dependent.
"Sorry ma'am, but you need to take personal responsibility for your lay off- having 12 months of income saved up is just not acceptable! You are such a sponge living off the government [i.e. accepting unemployment benefits]."

In all three cases, the folks involved had stuff happen that they couldn't have predicted, or prepared for even if they knew it was coming. They tried desperately to avoid going into foreclosures on their homes, which is why they made drastic choices in their budget. I don't call that asking for a government handout. In case you haven't noticed, the economy is going to h*ll- we are starting a recession, which is making the situation worse.

So, Cowboy, try using a little common sense and compassion- not everything is just black and white.
July 30, 2008

9:14 p.m.

Suggest removal

fiesty writes:

Broomhilda- the point of my above post is that it's not necessarily always "people who make poor choices with sad consequences", but that bad luck [complicated by a recession] can happen to any of us. In other words, it's not always the person's fault, as that type of comment implies. Granted, in many cases it may be, but we cannot automatically assume so.
July 30, 2008

9:57 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

M2S you stated "Well, I don't see where it's reported they were "at the movies." This fire was called in after midnight. What makes you think they weren't home asleep when it started?"

I gave you the answer and you still refuse to look it up. You choose to Chastise me??????? It proves what DRIVEL you folks will eat up when spoon fed. Hell I, nor anyone else is not above having this done to us. While I take it as a learning experience, you choose to question my credibility without research that was hand fed to you.
Denver Post stated in their morning report that they were at the movies with quotes. I stated that on my 4:12 post.

You all were so ready to pounce on people for being callous, The story was LACKING and poorly done. A little research found that to be true. Hell Denver Post pulled it from their "front page" area fairly quickly as with a much more detailed picture, the sensationalized story was lacking.
July 30, 2008

11:41 p.m.

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Creative_N_Denver writes:

LoFat I would like to know the customer who was able to keep their electric on with a bill of $7000. I know of many with bills around $1000. and are now being turned off. Excell doesn't seem to be the type of company that would allow a bill to go to that limit.
I understand getting behind sometimes and calling to get help, or get on a payment plan, then losing your job happens, then your back to not being able to pay. Life is tough, I do know there are organizations out there that will also help.
LEAP helps only during certain months. However some people just can't get out from under. Times are just going to get worst before they get any better, if they get better, we can only hope!
July 31, 2008

9:44 a.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

SSquared.......

I understand why people are up in arms at Cowboy at his callous and over the top remarks. But do you now agree that he was correct in the fact that the story had many holes in it as written? Would this be this big of a story and what would the remarks be if the actual details of the story were divulged in the beginning?

Thanks SSquared....
July 31, 2008

9:45 a.m.

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fiesty writes:

ssqured - you're right. My husband is from a small farming town in the south, and when misfortune happened to a family, the community would help out each other.
July 31, 2008

noon

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

SSquared....

I try...repeat try.....some success some not so successful of judging on here. I try to creat a dialogue that gets somewhere.

Again while I do not accept the fact that Cowboy and his method of delivery was callous and way over the top. And I mean no disrespect to him nor anybody.

This said Cowboy had a point that needed to be looked at and in the context of this story. That was using his term had many holes in the story.

Read the Denver Post article regarding this story and see how the differences in detail would have played if the RMN used the same information. It does not change that this is a tragedy and that the people need help. But it does raise the issue of how news is presented and how the lack of information available changes the context of the story.
July 31, 2008

2:12 p.m.

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infidel91 writes:

Cowboy was right.
July 31, 2008

3:23 p.m.

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COLibertarian writes:

SSquared. Fair enough. I too come from a rural ranch background. Help and accepting help are a staple of those communities.

Something that I was told a very long time ago. You can only help those that help themselves.

Charity, good will, and helping with good ol hard work is a paramount or should be a paramount for any community of any size. However we must take into fact that at any given time there may not be enough to go around. In my book that is where the helping those that help themselves fit within the priority of our charity.

Home › News › Local News

Candle ignites townhouse in Northglenn

By Bill Scanlon, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Published July 30, 2008 at 9:02 a.m.Updated July 31, 2008 at 12:53 a.m.

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Published July 30, 2008 at 9:02 a.m.
Updated July 31, 2008 at 12:53 a.m.