McCain: Backing surge took guts
He tells G.I. group he told public 'truth' as Obama pandered
By M.E. Sprengelmeyer, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Friday, July 25, 2008
Sen. John McCain said he is the one who showed real courage on Iraq by supporting the troop "surge;" when public opinion was turning against the war.
McCain drew a sharp contrast between his stance and that of Sen. Barack Obama, who has said his opposition to the invasion of Iraq was the courageous act when many in Congress considered such a position politically risky.
By going forward with the troop increase, "We rejected the audacity of hopelessness," McCain said, alluding to the title of Obama's second book, The Audacity of Hope.
The presumed Republican presidential nominee made his comments Friday in Denver before a Hispanic veterans group that responded with cheers and some standing ovations, but whose members made it clear afterward that they're divided on who to vote for in November.
McCain, a Vietnam veteran and former prisoner of war, found some friendly faces at the American G.I. Forum's national convention at the Grand Hyatt hotel downtown.
The Arizona Republican drew applause each time he pledged to support veterans programs, and thunderous approval when he praised Hispanic military heroes.
But the reaction was less clear for his fiery defense of the new military strategy in Iraq, which included repeated criticism and, at times, ridicule for Democratic rival Obama.
About 18 months ago, just as the presidential campaign was heating up, McCain and many other Republicans backed President Bush's proposal to send additional troops into Iraq.
Obama, a longtime opponent of the war, was opposed, already calling for an orderly draw-down of U.S. forces in Iraq.
Since the start of the campaign, Obama has pointed to his early opposition to the war in Iraq as the decision that took backbone. His most noted speech opposing the war came in October 2002, when President Bush's approval ratings were still high and other Democrats shied away from opposing a potential conflict with Iraq.
Now, McCain is turning Obama's argument on its head.
"Senator Obama told the American people what he thought you wanted to hear. I told you the truth," McCain said, adding he thought the Bush administration's initial strategy was flawed.
"I went to Iraq many times and heard all the phony explanations about how we were winning," he said.
McCain has criticized what he says is Obama's refusal to admit that the troop surge has worked.
Some veterans in the crowd agreed with McCain.
"I can't believe how we can consider any other candidate who hasn't served in the military," said Jim Maestas, 74, of Denver.
But someone also held up a sign saying "Peace is patriotic" at the end of McCain's speech, and other audience members had at best a lukewarm reaction.
Dora Gonzales, 56, an undecided voter from Colorado Springs, said she was moved by parts of McCain's speech, including his story about the heroism of a Hispanic Medal of Honor winner from the Vietnam War, the late Master Sgt. Roy Benavidez.
Gonzales said she was interested in hearing McCain talk about "what we need to get done to keep America safe." But at the same time, Gonzales said she's anxious to get the soldiers out of harm's way.
"I would hope we could eventually bring our troops home," she said.
She questioned the way McCain portrays Obama's Iraq position as surrender. "Where the rubber meets the road, they're similar," she said of the two candidates. "When I read what Obama is saying, he's not saying to pull out immediately either."
McCain got some of his biggest applause each time he pledged to support programs that serve his fellow veterans. "Whatever our commitments to veterans cost, we will keep them, as you have kept every commitment to us," McCain said.
Still, some critics, including a couple dozen people who staged an event outside the convention site on Thursday, accuse McCain of siding with President Bush and supporting "low-ball" figures for funding veterans programs.
G.I. Forum member Cipriano Griego, 63, of Denver, who served as a radar operator in the Navy, scoffed at McCain's pledges to support veterans spending and his Iraq strategy, too.
"I think what we ought to do is what Obama says - an intelligent, well thought-out withdrawal," he said.
Juan Espino, 79, who served in both the U.S. Army and Marines, said he was impressed by McCain's speech about Iraq policy.
"He has to know more about war because he was there," Espino said. "Obama can't tell me because he hasn't been there."
Still, Espino said he's keeping an open mind about the presidential race and hopes to get tickets to see Obama's acceptance speech at Invesco Field during the Democratic National Convention.
"I wish I could question both of them," Espino said, saying he wants to know what McCain and Obama would do to complete the new VA hospital promised for the Fitzsimons site.
Friday's appearance came before McCain's scheduled meeting in Aspen with the Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama. By appearing before the congressionally chartered Hispanic veterans group, McCain got a chance to face two key constituencies at once.
He's counting on enthusiastic turnout among fellow veterans to help him win in November. A new poll from Rasmussen Reports found him leading Obama 56 percent to 37 percent among military veterans. But this year, Latino voters also are considered a pivotal group, especially in Western states like Colorado that Democrats hope to turn from "red" to "blue."
Griego, who supports Obama, said it would be a mistake to think the Hispanic veterans group is anything close to united.
"It's about 50-50," he said. "We're not homogenous."
Vets sound off
Some of the veterans who heard Sen. John McCain's speech Friday in Denver weighed in on whom they plan to vote for in November.
* Domingo Berlanga from Flint, Mich., served in Korea. The 77-year-old is "leaning toward" Sen. Barack Obama.
"We got a lot of other people who went there (Vietnam) too," he said of McCain. "His ideas for the veterans I don't support. He is always trying to cut the budget for vets."
* Arthur Anderson, 55, of Aurora, served in the Air Force and Marines. He supports McCain.
"When somebody spends as much time in captivity, as he did, and never loses faith in their government, that's very remarkable. What McCain did as far as his military record is very impressive to me."
* Rafael Noboa, 31, served in Iraq. The Denver resident supports Obama.
"I have a military record and that doesn't qualify me to be president. I respect the fact that he has a military record and he suffered greatly but that doesn't influence me to vote for him or not."
* Roman Ortiz, 60, served in Vietnam. The Corpus Christi, Texas, resident is undecided.
"The speech was just rehearsed. There was not only one man who fought in Vietnam, there were a bunch of us."
* Phil Gonzales, 59, served during the Vietnam era. The Dodge City, Kan., resident supports McCain.
"His middle-of-the- road policies are the reason I support him. And as a veteran, his military record influences me a great deal."
July 25, 2008
10:29 a.m.
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DenverDan writes:
Break out the fiber. Mr.Burns is in the Houes.
July 25, 2008
10:34 a.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
I think he should take a tour of the places he's mentioned lately that don't actually exist, like Czechoslovakia and the Iraq/Pakistan border. And this guy is supposed to be running on the strength of his foreign policy?
July 25, 2008
10:35 a.m.
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HolierThanThou writes:
If McCain didn't keep stumbling into crap holes like the Keating Five and could refrain from embracing conservative delusions of peace through murder and prosperity through poverty, I might be tempted to vote for him.
Personally, I believe he's a decent guy who keeps buying a bag of ugliness because it's wrapped in the flag.
July 25, 2008
10:35 a.m.
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SL10 writes:
This should be interesting. As a vet myself I would love to see McCain how he will clean up his stance on vet benefits. Being he was against the new GI bill that became law thanks to the democrats. Finally! McCain should just come clean and state he is anti-vet at least I could respect him to some point.
July 25, 2008
10:50 a.m.
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danirobi writes:
McCain has been to Iraq yet he doesn't get the play that Obama "Messiah" gets. How about Obama saying that the soldiers in Iraq are forced to watch Foxnews because Bush tells them too? WTF? How about Obama not meeting with the troops in Germany because "the pentagon told me not too" hahaha BS if I ever heard it.
McCain has done more for this country this Obama will ever do. How about 144 days on the job???
July 25, 2008
11:01 a.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Does anybody understand the psycho-babble coming from YIOTA and danirobi? These posts are hard to read and nearly impossible to understand.
July 25, 2008
11:08 a.m.
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freethought writes:
I especially liked the way McCain just happened to be in South America when the hostages were rescued. Nice timing there also.
July 25, 2008
11:10 a.m.
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Diff writes:
yiota - sounds like are the one crying a pitching a fit - just like you are accusing the DEMs of doing.
I wrote this in another post but - recently my nephew stationed on the east coast was "told" to be on an aircraft parking ramp for a McCain arrival - not many people there and as he walked away from the aircraft - passing within a few feet, my nephew put out his hand to J.C. - he made no effort to shake his or any service-mans hand - put his head down -would not met his eye and just kept walking!
This young man, an US ARMY Iraqi vet was snubbed my MR military POW McCain!
(BTW no press cameras were at this event ... mmm )
Not that I was going to vote for him but...
I though McCain was a bit above the average Republican and I respected him for that and his military service - Now I would not give the BUM the time of day!
Maybe he will find enlightenment up on the mountain today . . .
Obama 08
July 25, 2008
11:15 a.m.
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freethought writes:
JM: I come to you seeking the meaning of life.
DL: Well for you, it's a little late, don't you think?
July 25, 2008
11:24 a.m.
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M2 writes:
Like my grandfather, McCain is old and stubborn in his thinking and outlook of life. Obama on the other hand is young, inspires hope and has a fresh outlook on life and this country. To be honest though... I just want Bush out... I'd rather have Mickey Mouse than that clown.
July 25, 2008
11:39 a.m.
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freethought writes:
M2 speaks the truth. What exactly will be the Bush legacy?
No child left behind? Health care reform? Tax reform? The economy? World status? MidEast peace? End to conflict and war?
NOPE!
Torture and domestic spying. That's the legacy for sure.
Still proud of him?
July 25, 2008
11:45 a.m.
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Frontranger writes:
I respect McCain but he is no leader!
July 25, 2008
11:58 a.m.
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Firedewd writes:
This is the latest circulating about the Obaminator today, can't verify yet.
Hello everyone,
As you know I am not a very political person. I just wanted to pass along that Senator Obama came to Bagram Afghanistan for about an hour on his visit to "The War Zone". I wanted to share with you what happened. He got off the plan and got into a bullet proof vehicle, got to the area to meet with the Major General (2 Star) who is the commander here at Bagram. As the Soldiers where lined up to shake his hand he blew them off and didn't say a word as he went into the conference room to meet the General. As he finished, the vehicles took him to the ClamShell (pretty much a big top tent that military personnel can play basketball or work out in with weights) so he could take his publicity pictures playing basketball. He again shunned the opportunity to talk to Soldiers to thank them for their service. So really he was just here to make a showing for the American's back home that he is their candidate for President. I think that if you are going to make an effort to come all the way over here you would thank those that are providing the freedom that they are providing for you. I swear we got more thanks from the NBA Basketball Players or the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders than from one of the Senators, who wants to be the President of the United States . I just don't understand how anyone would want him to be our Commander-and-Chief. It was almost that he was scared to be around those that provide the freedom for him and our great country.
If this is blunt and to the point I am sorry but I wanted you all to know what kind of caliber of person he really is. What you see in the news is all fake.
In service,
CPT Jeffrey S. Porter
Battle Captain
TF Wasatch
American Soldier
July 25, 2008
12:09 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Firedewd the rumor-spreader, your email is bogus. Very easy to "verify" this kind of stuff. You just want people to read and believe this crap.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/...
July 25, 2008
12:28 p.m.
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WestminsterJ writes:
Let's see: McCain is meeting with the Dalai Lama at a Tibetan Buddhist institute-sponsored conference in- wait for it- *Aspen, Colorado*, this weekend.
Doesn't this cast doubt on his Christian credentials? Isn't this another example of McCain's liberal let's-all-hold-hands-and-sing-kumbaya tendencies?
Oh, that's right, this is John McCain and not Obama. So it's ok.
July 25, 2008
12:34 p.m.
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RightDownTheMiddle writes:
I was wondering why Downtown seemed sleepy and bored today....
July 25, 2008
12:35 p.m.
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Nobama writes:
YourNeilness writes:
"Does anybody understand the psycho-babble coming from YIOTA and danirobi? These posts are hard to read and nearly impossible to understand."
I wanted to come out and play, but I'm pretty sure the Libs can't read and comprehend simple words. RE: the statement above. I thought YIOTA and danirobi were pretty clear, but apparently have a different view, so they get insulted. I get tired of playing that game. It's a very juvenile, but typical Liberal "debate" technique. Where's the discussion? All I see are references to McCain being old, then you go off on your tired old Bush rants. Don't you need some new material?
Anyway, you haven't posted anything to peak my interest, so I'll check around elsewhere. Knock yourselves out, but I may come back and play Whack a Liberal if you're not careful.
July 25, 2008
12:41 p.m.
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HolierThanThou writes:
Looks like the usual "latest circulating" chain letter full of conservative nonsense.
We've seen this before, someone pretending to report on events from camp so-and-so, along with the typical garbage about the "only people defending freedom".
Here's a concept: every American has a duty to defend their liberty. Most of us do so while out of uniform.
A bad thing happened when we went from having a citizen soldiery to establishing an elite professional army. The government under the conservatives then decided that wasn't enough. So, now we even have expensive private mercenaries thrown into the "bargain". Never mind about the military sales force peddling violence against the latest batch of brown people that annoy us.
Militarism is the foremost threat to our liberty. I would rather that we had a 100% draft of every able-bodied American to do some military training and take a turn in Iraq or Afghanistan even if just a month or two. Putting the whole burden of fighting on a few families is wrong. We are all responsible for the debacle.
When war is a spectator sport it's much too easy to treat it like a football league complete with the usual deference to a lot of jokers who claim to be from the front lines.
It's not a sport. It's an ugly bloody business. Bring back the draft and make it apply to everyone who has not served in the military, young and old. It would be an educational experience for everyone and well worth the trouble.
July 25, 2008
12:50 p.m.
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Frontranger writes:
McCain's meeting today had 8 people at it. 5 were from the media and 3 were from his staff. He's got people skills, damnit!
July 25, 2008
12:53 p.m.
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SL10 writes:
Yeah, a vote for McCain comes from the insane. I mean come on folks McCain does not give a shi* about vets who are fighting two wars. "If" he became Prez. Veterans will eat this fool up, if he undercuts the VA budget just so the rich get their tax cuts.
July 25, 2008
12:59 p.m.
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Frontranger writes:
Is it possible to be black and elitist?
July 25, 2008
1:06 p.m.
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SL10 writes:
News Update: McCain blows Bengay. More news at 7pm. LMAO.
July 25, 2008
1:06 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Nobama,
I'd love to have a debate, but that would require the other side to be able to state their arguments in an intelligible way. The constant misspellings, misuse of words and phrases and incorrect grammar make it nearly impossible to be sure of what the writer was intending to say. That’s why I asked if someone understood what they were talking about so I might be able to construct a retort. Something you failed to do, as well as anybody else in this forum. By the way, the phrase you were looking for is “pique my interest”, not “peak my interest”, those mean different things. How would I go about “peaking” your interest? Making it come to a point? Sorry, but that’s your job.
July 25, 2008
1:06 p.m.
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freethought writes:
NotChasB; You must be so naive to believe everything that Firedewd says.
I would love to have your email address so I could send you all the phony chain-mail that I get for you to believe.
Did you know that John McCain once headlined for a group of female impersonators?
Believe it, because I just put it into print.
Sukker!
July 25, 2008
1:11 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Firedewd shows how this tactic of spreading lies works on those who are anxious to believe them. NotChaseB willfully ignored my post showing that the email is bogus. Just believe what you want to believe and it will be true.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/...
July 25, 2008
1:11 p.m.
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Big_D writes:
LIARdewd not only are you lying about who you are the real soldier that had his message hijacked has asked all sites to remove it. How about some video to show what a liar you are to go with it: http://cbs4.com/local/obama.media.pre...
July 25, 2008
1:22 p.m.
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Firedewd writes:
YourNeilness: That was the first place I went this morning as I didn't believe it. After searching on Obama (which is probably their biggest subject now) I didn't see a reference for it. Thanks for the update.
July 25, 2008
1:23 p.m.
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Frontranger writes:
NotChasB, you are as dumb as it gets if you believe anyone despise veterans.
July 25, 2008
1:23 p.m.
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Shaggy writes:
Looks like our next President is in town while the plastic messiah is over seas acting like a President.
July 25, 2008
1:28 p.m.
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Firedewd writes:
Big_Dimwit .... I didn't say it was from me or I wrote it, I said it was what was circulating around!!!!!!!!! READ!!!! I didn't make anything up or try to pass on lies. Idiot!
July 25, 2008
1:30 p.m.
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freethought writes:
NotChasB: Sticks and stone, buddy, stick and stones.
Lets talk "lies and deception"
Like weapons of mass destruction, Mission Accomplished and No casualties.
Like phone tapping, undisclosed e-mails and cover-up.
You right-wingers can spot "lies and deception" because you invented it.
July 25, 2008
1:31 p.m.
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DenverDan writes:
There is a reason why there are only 30 comments on the fact that McCain is in town today, over 120 comments on anything that has to with Obama. The reason is people on the right can only talk down Obama, even make crap up to discredit him, I had to listen to rush L (Operation Failure)on the radio the other day and the whole time I did not hear anything on McCain is was all Dem bashing. The average Republican knows more about Obama than McCain.
July 25, 2008
1:32 p.m.
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freethought writes:
Firedewd, passing on gossip as "gossip" is still GOSSIP!
You did try to pass on lies.
Or can't you tell truth from fiction anymore?
July 25, 2008
1:35 p.m.
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davies writes:
Holier and naiver than thou: It's great to be "against war", just really great. Now you propose to make war an educational experience for everyone, in the apparent hope that then everyone will be "against war". I am against war too, yes sir; I am opposed to war; I think most people are. Back when I was younger and more naive, I was against war then too. The only difference is that now I understand that it really doesn't frickin' matter if you're against war or not. There are really only two questions that need to be answered about war: (1) whether you're in one, and (2) if you are, how to win it.
As far as I understood, we were not at war on 9/10/2001. On 9/11/2001, we were at war. So then the question became: How do we win this war? Many people felt like we should have concentrated on Afghanistan. Maybe not, maybe so. Since the Iraqis seem to be getting tired of the Al-Qaida types blowing them up, and are joining us in kicking their a$$es up in Iraq, most of the bad boys seem to be showing up with the Taliban types down in the Himalayas now anyway. Okay then, I guess we'll have to fight them there, if that's the best strategy.
But drafting everyone, young and old, male and female, regardless of their wishes and abilities, and sending them all off to take turns to fight in a war so that they can discover first hand that it is "ugly bloody business"? That's not a strategy, it's a surrender. Even Obama could tell you that my sweet little child.
July 25, 2008
1:44 p.m.
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SL10 writes:
NotChaseB, you are a serious joke. "Self Serving"? I enlisted to make the military a career like my father and mother. Yeah McCain did serve in military honorably, but that was in the past. He is not favored by vets of the present who also served honorably. He and his GOP croonies over 12 years cut the VA budget or slight increases that do not keep up pace inflation. So, you feel us vets do not deserve our earned benefits? Tread lightly with your answer.
July 25, 2008
1:47 p.m.
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ColdShot writes:
No! I am not proud of the RINO GWB! He has been a dismal failure in many area! His #1 claim to fame is the security of this country! well guess what...the borders are ALL still leaking! Kick the f'n illegals out and close the borders! That being said, the worst thing about it, is GWB was by far the lesser of the evils in both elections and would never in a million years have voted for the global warming scham monkey or the sorry excuse for an American gold digging worthless waste of air!
Maybe what this country needs is 4 years of a worse then Jimmy Carter President, BHO, to come back to terms with the fact that is the WRONG direction STILL!! I'll hope that the Islomofacist as pres doesnt completely destroy this country and offer your head to his buddies!
I really wish the treasonous socialists would just go find a country they would fit better in! There are many countries that believe they should wipe their citizens noses for them...you'll fit in there much better! Here in this country, responsibility for self is where its at!
July 25, 2008
1:49 p.m.
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Frontranger writes:
NotBrightB, I am actually not registered to any party! I just like to point out stupidity, racsism and prejudice when I see it. See your previous posts for proof......
July 25, 2008
2:03 p.m.
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freethought writes:
NotChasB: Sorry, Buddy, but I won. Take a poll.
I did not change any subject. You called for "lies and deception" and I gave you the "truth".
You have not contradicted me, so I guess you are out of real ammunition and have to resort to semantics.
Eight years of this administration spewing crap that you can't wait to swallow.
Bon apetit.
July 25, 2008
2:06 p.m.
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SL10 writes:
YIOTA, E-1s I think make over a $1000 a month not sure on combat pay. I have not kept up with the pay charts since 2000. So, I do not know what the pay grades get now-a-days.
July 25, 2008
2:07 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
YIOTA,
Thanks for the clarification. I didn’t see that previous article or those posts, so I found it quite confusing. Since I didn’t read all that stuff, I won’t make an attempt at a retort. I’ll just let it go.
July 25, 2008
2:10 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
You can always tell what Republicans are up to. It’s exactly what they’re accusing Democrats of doing.
July 25, 2008
2:15 p.m.
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HSTOWEL writes:
SL10 apparently you aren't informed and I'm wondering if you are really a vet. McCain is certainly not anti-vet. He's a retired Navy Captain (06) whereas I don't think Obama even served in the Boy Scouts. I'm not sure what qualifications "community organizer" brings with it. McCain has sponsored another version of the GI Bill that doesn't award full scholarships to college for only four years of service. Instead the amount attached is tied to the amount of service. If you actually served in the military then you would understand that lots of people getting out of the military after one enlistment would not be good for the military or national security. The military needs a number of people with experience to stay in for longer periods, not all until retirement necessarily, so that experience personnel are kept. I spent 24 years (8 active/16 reserve) and I can clearly see the clear thinking in the McCain bill versus the Webb bill. I'm not sure how any vet could want to hand over the job of Commander in Chief to the likes of Obama.
July 25, 2008
2:16 p.m.
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davies writes:
YIOTA: Thanks. You have more energy than me though.
ColdShot: Calm down. Liberals and Democrats have a right to their say. They're not treasonous, they're just nice people who generally have two things in common: (1) they are unable to recognize or accept that life on this earth can and will be unfair; and (2) they range from unduly optimistic to outright delusional if their belief that government has the ability to solve every problem.
And Obama is not an Islamofascist, he is a liberal Christian.
July 25, 2008
2:20 p.m.
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HolierThanThou writes:
The draft-everyone proposal always brings out the pro-war-but-too-scared-to-fight crowd every time.
Accuse me of being a sexist, but I'd be happy to modify the proposal to include men only. Women could mostly stay home and be cheerleaders for us.
Note also that I said "able-bodied" but older able-bodied men can fight. Our experience can help the younger guys keep things in perspective when the ugliness becomes unbearable.
The other reason I'd limit the conscription to men is that it's mostly men who make the case for war, and mostly well-dressed conservative men that know they're not going to be sharing a ditch with an ornery mug named Foo or Haji trying to kill them.
Men like that need to serve up front or patrolling some narrow alley busting down doors and looking for insurgents. But we can't leave out liberal men who don't think war is a good idea. Somebody has to be smart enough to actually lead men through the terrible mess. That person needs to be someone who doesn't harbor so many delusions about glory so as not be be overly traumatized when they discover that there is no glory. The military also needs officers who can critically evaluate the wisdom of their generals and are willing to question them. Otherwise, disaster and defeat is likely to ensue.
Why is subduing Iraq is taking so much longer than it took us to subdue the vastly greater powers of Nazi Germany and Japan when we had flaming liberals like Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt running the show?
I observe that most of the nation is ignoring the war. Bush's idea of sacrifice was to tell everyone to go shopping. If the war has no urgency for the majority of Americans then we are less likely to insist on a speedy conclusion to the hostilities. We become like an elephant unaware that it's being slowly bled to death.
July 25, 2008
2:29 p.m.
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HopiMedicineMan writes:
You guys don't get politics. The candidates are almost identical. What they do in office is dictated by lawyers and summarily changed by judges. What they say, the source of so much energy above, is almost never what we see enacted. What's important is what they had for lunch, what kind of limo did they come in, and were they allowed to drive it. These are the important things.
July 25, 2008
2:32 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
We are not at “war” in Iraq. It was an invasion and now it is an occupation. Democrats are not against fighting terrorism, we are against invading and occupying sovereign nations that never harmed the U.S. We think it would be wiser to hunt down the terrorists where they are, like along the Iraq/Pakistan……ERRRRRRR…. Afghanistan/Pakistan border. If Republicans are supposed to be so strong in this area, why did they pull the troops out of Afghanistan and forget about going after the terrorists? And why doesn’t their heroic leader know that there is no Iraq/Pakistan border? Unless, of course, this was a Freudian slip and the “border” he was talking about was actually Iran…..
July 25, 2008
2:35 p.m.
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davies writes:
Holier: "then we are less likely to insist on a speedy conclusion to the hostilities."
The only way to insist on a speedy conclusion to the hostilities, is to soundly and overwhelmingly defeat the enemy. Pretty hard to do when they're hiding among non-combatants.
But I think I do understand your plan on how to whip 'em but good: Send a rotating force of able-bodied old guys over to fight them for one-to-two month tours of duty, and have them led by liberals who want change, rather than say, experienced battlefield commanders. Brilliant!
July 25, 2008
2:55 p.m.
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YourNeilness writes:
Chase,
Democrats do not hate soldiers. I personally thank soldiers for their service when I meet them. I think they should not have been sent into a sovereign country that had not harmed the U.S. in order to occupy them and to serve as fodder for those that are offended by their presence (also referred to as “insurgents”) to kill them with IED’s. I think they should be carefully extracted from the situation (I’ll leave the “how” part of that to the military experts) so they can come home, where they are safe. I don’t think that because I hate soldiers.
July 25, 2008
3:06 p.m.
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jtriska writes:
Wow, goiter boy was in town today? Did he do his little bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb...... bomb, bomb Iran bit? I love that. We all know what's on his mind don't we. We'll never find out tho since he'll never make it to the oval office.
Hey camera guys, what did we tell you about showing him from the right side, the right side. No , not your right your other right, no his right.
July 25, 2008
3:09 p.m.
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jay writes:
"Even after his extensive Iraq remarks, McCain got his biggest applause of the day when he shifted to talking about veterans benefits issues."
wow...that is certainly surprising. maybe the vets in the photo op haven't been paying attention to mccain's actions.
i'm not quite sure how mccain can stand in front of a crowd of veterans and keep a straight face considering he:
– voted against providing $20 billion to the vets admin medical facilities.
– voted against providing $430 million to the vets admin for outpatient care and treatment for veterans, one of only 13 senators to do so
– voted against increasing va funding by $1.5 billion by closing corp loopholes
– voted against increasing vet admin funding by $1.8 billion by ending “abusive tax loopholes".
rhetoric vs. reality
July 25, 2008
3:26 p.m.
Suggest removal
freethought writes:
Y you otta SHUT UP!
July 25, 2008
3:33 p.m.
Suggest removal
SL10 writes:
HSTOWEL writes:
SL10 apparently you aren't informed and I'm wondering if you are really a vet. McCain is certainly not anti-vet. He's a retired Navy Captain (06) whereas I don't think Obama even served in the Boy Scouts. I'm not sure what qualifications "community organizer" brings with it. McCain has sponsored another version of the GI Bill that doesn't award full scholarships to college for only four years of service. Instead the amount attached is tied to the amount of service. If you actually served in the military then you would understand that lots of people getting out of the military after one enlistment would not be good for the military or national security. The military needs a number of people with experience to stay in for longer periods, not all until retirement necessarily, so that experience personnel are kept. I spent 24 years (8 active/16 reserve) and I can clearly see the clear thinking in the McCain bill versus the Webb bill. I'm not sure how any vet could want to hand over the job of Commander in Chief to the likes of Obama.
Last I checked I was and still am a (disabled) vet. But let me check for ya (looks at DD-214, "201" file, VHA Outpatient Card, VA Award letter, Service Medical Records). Yep, the government says I am a vet... Actually, the Webb bill is now being praised by DOD the very same people who were against it at the start. Hmmm.
McCain is so anti-vet.. Goto www.vawatchdog.org and read some info about vet issues and how the GOP has been anti-vet including McCain.. Larry Craig (R) Senator comes to mind also, remember him the in the bathroom scandal.. LMAO...
"I spent 24 years (8 active/16 reserve)"
Congrats, at least you will have your retirement at age 60..
"I'm not sure how any vet could want to hand over the job of Commander in Chief to the likes of Obama."
Better than giving it to McCain that is for sure... ;-)
"McCain has sponsored another version of the GI Bill that doesn't award full scholarships to college for only four years of service. Instead the amount attached is tied to the amount of service. "
Please tell me you read his version?!?!?
His version doesn't allow medically separated vets GI benefits aka military disability retirement..
July 25, 2008
3:35 p.m.
Suggest removal
freethought writes:
Sexist, bigoted, racist, homophobic, war-monger is one pigeonhole for McCain, er, I mean YIOTA.
July 25, 2008
3:37 p.m.
Suggest removal
SL10 writes:
Interesting reading....
jay writes:
"Even after his extensive Iraq remarks, McCain got his biggest applause of the day when he shifted to talking about veterans benefits issues."
wow...that is certainly surprising. maybe the vets in the photo op haven't been paying attention to mccain's actions.
i'm not quite sure how mccain can stand in front of a crowd of veterans and keep a straight face considering he:
– voted against providing $20 billion to the vets admin medical facilities.
– voted against providing $430 million to the vets admin for outpatient care and treatment for veterans, one of only 13 senators to do so
– voted against increasing va funding by $1.5 billion by closing corp loopholes
– voted against increasing vet admin funding by $1.8 billion by ending “abusive tax loopholes".
rhetoric vs. reality
July 25, 2008
3:37 p.m.
Suggest removal
YourNeilness writes:
YournEilness(funny!), perhaps you didn’t see the video of the Iraqi people celebrating and dancing in the streets when we first showed up on Baghdad(Staged). Perhaps you are not aware of the evil crimes that Saddam and his ultra evil sons committed on the people of Iraq(Not the business of the USA to avenge these atrocities). Perhaps you are forgetting that the US Senate voted yes to go into Iraq(There was stipulations to go back to the UN, which never happened). Perhaps you are forgetting that we found a huge training camp as well as documents linking Saddam to Al-Qaida(Lie). Perhaps you are missing the news reports about the yellow pancake uranium and the other small caches of this chemical or that chemical or the rounds that were fitted to deliver chemicals(Another lie. If they had chemical weapons, why didn’t they use them against the invading US soldiers?).
Perhaps you continue to ignore the entire story about Iraq, so you can continue to focus on one piece and continue to tell yourself and your lib buddies that America is bad(just these actions), America is an occupier(true), and America invaded Iraq(true).
Perhaps you don’t remember how Germany, Russia and France were violating the UN Resolutions for profit(don’t know anything about this accusation). Perhaps you are forgetting the previous 20 or so resolutions that were passed since 1991 against Iraq(So what? The USA violates UN resolutions, too). Perhaps you are forgetting that we are fighting an enemy that does not have country, a race, or a definable look(true, why aren’t we going after them?).
Perhaps you are choose to not understand that every time Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, Edwards, Murtha and Clinton declare the war lost(never happened) and CNN shows video of our own soldiers being shot(never seen this, but I’ve seen video of our hired mercenaries firing randomly at Iraqis) that you are emboldening the enemy(political rhetoric). Perhaps you choose to not understand that many of the deaths over the last 1.5 - 2 years are due to the lengthened time we have had to stay in Iraq due to the enemy continuing to send in more of their people(Right, because we sent in thousands of targets for them to practice on).
Perhaps with some cooperation and less divisiveness we can finish our mission there(We are finished, lets go after the real terrorists, like Bin Ladin). Then we can move on to dealing with the resurgence in Afghanistan and whatever other disaster needs attention(good idea).
July 25, 2008
3:38 p.m.
Suggest removal
RightDownTheMiddle writes:
I'm really starting to hate WcCain.
What happened to 2000 McCain? This new GOP WcCain version is disgusting and pathetic.....
July 25, 2008
3:40 p.m.
Suggest removal
Diff writes:
USAF pay - I was in at the end of 'nam and early in the 70s - I was married while in the service and I was getting less that $350/mo as an E-3 plus about $140 ( untaxed) as housing allowance -
When I was stationed in CA - I was eligible for food stamps and public assistance from the state - however I never took either.
July 25, 2008
3:42 p.m.
Suggest removal
SL10 writes:
YIOTA writes:
SL10 - When I get home I will look in my chest. I used to have a folder that I made when I was in the military and it contained every pay stub that I ever received. I will be curious to see what my wage was compared to todays wage.
I dont know how we will ever bridge that gap in the military as far as pay. Its such a different enviroment and pay structure. You have your base pay then you get incentive pay for so many different things. Obviously unlike a civilian, you cannot simply go get a new job that pays better has better hours, does include travel, etc. However, I can also understand from the economics side why the pay is fairly low at the E1 - E3 level.
Like all walks of life some people do better at managing their money than others. However it is heart breaking to see some of the military families struggling to make ends meet.
YIOTA
You can goto http://www.military.com or maybe http://www.vawatchdog.org for more info...
July 25, 2008
3:44 p.m.
Suggest removal
Diff writes:
Yiota - you should really go see a Doctor
about that sever case of diarrhea of the jaw...
July 25, 2008
3:50 p.m.
Suggest removal
SL10 writes:
NotChasB writes:
SL10
I also enlisted right out of high school and ROTC.
I'm a Vietnam Veteran and did two tours 1971-72 and do not expect to have the VA take care of me for the rest of my life. I don't even bother with their medical sevices. I have choose to take care of myself and my family for years and not be dependent on the government for anything. The VA was messed up long before McCain or the The Republicans cut the budget.
You have some serious answering to do yourself. Why in the heck did a career guy like you sellout to the Dems and liberals that hate our guts. I still remember smacking around some fithy abusive hippies in LA that are the forefathers of leftwing indoctrination in our universities and polititians. Are you another John Kerry sellout? Sure, Obama cares about you. I'm ashamed to feel the need to even answer you. Take a hike soldier
Not all vets have your means of support and unfortunely do have to rely on the VBA and VHA system to live, unless you think us less fortunated vets should die off to save you money?!?!?!
At least Obama has a clue about vets issues, partner..
McCain needs his aides to help find a clue, cause he can not remember half the time what is going on...
July 25, 2008
4:10 p.m.
Suggest removal
Cowboy63 writes:
This November ends like so many before... Democrat tears over another candidate that couldn't deliver.
Refusal to even discuss energy production will be Obama's (and other Democrats) downfall. However, it doesn't help that he chose to shoot hoops in Germany rather than meet some wounded troops (because cameras weren't allowed).
July 25, 2008
4:14 p.m.
Suggest removal
Who_Me writes:
Dolly Obama - who cares? I dress up and wear a robe while walking down the 16th St Mall and people give me dirty looks. Some dude from Tibet does it and it's news?
July 25, 2008
4:33 p.m.
Suggest removal
Cowboy63 writes:
Nope, sorry Artstarzz.
Obama was welcome - the sideshow wasn't - he opted out.
(and McCain's numbers continue to rise)
July 25, 2008
4:43 p.m.
Suggest removal
me2 writes:
All this because a couple of candidates take trips and meet folks? What would happen if one or both of them did something really radical?
You could all do us a favor and stop with the "he wouldn`t meet with (fill in the blanks) stories.
I think they call this hearsay in court.
July 25, 2008
4:47 p.m.
Suggest removal
davies writes:
freethought writes: "Y you otta SHUT UP!"
That wasn't nice. Log off and calm down now.
I don't like the picture of McCain holding Dollie Lhama's hand. Remember when W took a stroll holding the Saudi sheik's hand? Didn't like that either. What's with this hand-holding? It's unpresidential, un-American, un-hetero uh, never mind. But just shake hands and then disengage. Could be a metaphor for Iraq, eh? As in, the Republicans don't know when to disengage...
Well, it's about as intelligent as 90% of the rest of this junk ;-)
July 25, 2008
4:55 p.m.
Suggest removal
freethought writes:
davies, you are absolutley correct. I need to take a breath and realize that YIOTA has every right to flap his gums over the stupid bu77sh7t that spews forth from him like a geyser, on and on, over and over, continuously spouting the most rediculous clammer over nothing that he knows about.
Now I feel better, Thanx
July 25, 2008
5:55 p.m.
Suggest removal
ksells writes:
Reply to Firedewd
#
In service,
CPT Jeffrey S. Porter
Battle Captain
TF Wasatch
American Soldier
Cpt Porter,
I guess you decided to ignore higher command when you decided to post partisan political comments against explicit orders. That worries me. Has the concept that you follow orders become a "I will if I want to, but I will not if I don't" way of thought? And that's a joke saying you're "In Service" when you refuse a general posts an order on to do so. You can't be if you are violating the very principles of the service. You are lucky that there are people above you who have no more moral fiber then you do and will protect you. And it makes me wonder about the quality of our officer corp when a Captain no less chooses to say the hell with orders. Well Captain, I feel sorry for anyone under your command because I wouldn't want to be looking over my back going into combat.
July 25, 2008
6:13 p.m.
Suggest removal
Eli writes:
Regarding that letter debunked by snopes, what the hell is a "battle captain"? In three years of active duty in a line unit, not a single time did I ever hear the term "battle captain".
I'm not even remotely close to being a supporter of Obama, but for Christ's sake can we stop circulating this kind of garbage? Especially when you need to end your post with something like "can't confirm it yet"? If you don't know if it's true, don't post it.
For that matter, even without snopes, common sense should tell you that the story is garbage. Obama might not be my favorite person in the world, but the man is not stupid. He's well aware that cameras are on him pretty much everywhere he goes and that his actions and words will immediately appear in the media. Does anybody really believe he is so stupid that he'd just blatantly blow off soldiers and not realize the damage that would be caused by the immediate public backlash? Even if he absolutely despised veterans (and before you lefties jump all over me, I am NOT saying that he does), he has more than enough political savvy to know that to openly display that contempt would be political suicide.
July 25, 2008
6:17 p.m.
Suggest removal
ksells writes:
I've come to a conclusion that I have wronged many of the military. I think now that the most likely person who posted the "Captain Porter" post was probably a child. The tip off was the title "Battle Captain". My respect to all those in uniform and my most deepest disrespect for those whose disrespect our military. in my defense I can only say I was outraged that an officer would behave this way.
July 25, 2008
7:16 p.m.
Suggest removal
Dynamicdave writes:
Cowboy63, you're right about Obama and the wounded troops. not artstarzz. Obama DID have the option to visit the wounded but felt it wasn't important or pressing enough. Nice job, BO.
July 25, 2008
8:35 p.m.
Suggest removal
GetReal writes:
This is really lame coverage of McCain's speech today by The RMN.
The bigger story was that McCain finally came out to truthfully and eloquently challenge Obama on his Iraq policy, firing both barrels-
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives...
July 25, 2008
10:05 p.m.
Suggest removal
davies writes:
Hillary Clinton would not have held hands with the Dolly Lhama. She would have squeezed his hand tightly, smiling for the photos, and said through her clenched teeth "You talk me down or show me up on this little event, and I'll nuke your little Mongoloid country back to the frickin' Stone Age, if they ever got out of it in the first place!"
Then she would have let go of his hand, so she could smile and wave.
July 25, 2008
11:59 p.m.
Suggest removal
unfug writes:
have another cup of koolaid, YIOTA.
July 26, 2008
1:49 a.m.
allen12 writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
July 26, 2008
4:42 a.m.
Suggest removal
gwats writes:
Mr. McCain used to be a decent guy. I, a lifelong Democrat, used to admire his courage in standing up to George Bush Jr and the Neo-cons.
Now, I don't know who he represents and what he stands for other than more years of War in Iraq, sacrificing good lives that are not his to throw away on a War America can't win. It seems his stance on any given issue swings back and forth based on what crowd he is speaking to or what donor has the largest check for his campaign. Does he REALLY support our veterans? Or just the ones who fought in 'his' war? His record indicates he will kiss any ring, tell or repeat any lie, (especially that 'surge' nonsense) accept any advice no matter how tainted the source, to get elected President. Richard Nixon must be very proud!
July 26, 2008
5:34 a.m.
Suggest removal
CP writes:
Obama was against “the surge in Iraq”.
Obama admits “the surge” worked.
Yet Obama says he still would not have used “the surge.”
For those of you without a brain, Obama is telling you he would have LOST the war in Iraq.
But Obama lemmings are too dense to admit it.
July 26, 2008
7:23 a.m.
Suggest removal
davies writes:
Fro69, you sly dog. I went to that web site and watched the video. You would go ballistic if he had a chance to get elected. You're just trying to siphon off votes from McCain, to get your man BO elected.
July 26, 2008
9:05 a.m.
Suggest removal
Charles_B writes:
Saying it took courage to back the "surge" is like saying it took courage for the lemmings to walk over a cliff.
It may have taken courage, but it was still stupid.
July 26, 2008
10:08 a.m.
Suggest removal
allen12 writes:
Obama is NOT qualified to be President. Community service and 100 days + as a Senator does not a President make. He is full of false rhetoric, propaganda, and factual inconsistencies. You can pout your leftist unAmerican rant as long as you want. You can post as many fake vets and slanted facts as you desire. Bottom line: America, real Americans are not going to listen to this America hating zealot. His record of associations prove he hates whites, Jews, and America. Facts not fiction, his words not others. No real American, who loves this country would EVER support Obama. McCain warts and all is not only a better person, a better American, but a better Human Being than Barack "Don't Call Me Huissien" Obama. Obama has no credibility, no credentials to be President. People who pull for Obama hate America. They want to see us lose, they want to see us lesser than what we are.
July 26, 2008
10:11 a.m.
Suggest removal
rg writes:
Have a heart; McCain is disabled; the VA sends him nearly $5,000 monthly; the guy can't work; his wife is worth one hundred $million; his senate salary, his speech-making, his perks just don't pay enough. He needs $400,000 as President with its enormous perks. Michael Savage, talk show host, upon noting Obama's recent success in Europe, Iraq and Afghanistan says: "I'm going to vote for the creep." The creep he speaks of is McCain; however, Savage needs clinical help. McCain collects his disability pay while denying veterans rights they gained as surely as he did. I thought drawing disability pay precluded you from drawing pay as a worker.
July 26, 2008
10:28 a.m.
Suggest removal
Colorado_Bill writes:
Don't lie to me, McCain!
You thought the way your party told you to think and voted the way your party told you to vote.
That is not an example of courage.
That is an example of a hypocrite who has put the interests of his career and his party above his country's.
July 26, 2008
10:54 a.m.
Suggest removal
KW writes:
Obama is still saying the surge in Iraq hasn't worked? Then why does he propose that a surge in Afganistan will?
Fortunately, Obama is like the New Coke. After a couple of sips, most people realized the old recipe was the real thing.
July 26, 2008
10:57 a.m.
Suggest removal
allen12 writes:
Froward69:
If Barr had a chance in Hell we would be all over him, that goes with many others, but McCain is our date and we have to to dance with him. We can't get caught like we did in '92 when Perot let Clinton win.
rg: Give me a break! How many ID's do you have for yourself, SL10, rg, artstarzz? We all know its the same guy. What bothers me the most about you guys is that your worse than the supposed "Chicken Hawks". Al least they had the guts to say what they wanted and didn't pretend to be fake vets.
Obama is without merit. At least McGovern, Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, were respectable men who achieve something in their lives.
Kerry and now Obama are so unqualified to lead.
McCain trumps Obama with his personal courage alone. If it comes down to depending on two guys to save my life, be there for me and my family, its John McCain every time.
Obama will make a us a second rate, third rate country. He will dumb us down and tear our fabric apart. He doesn't care if we do not prosper because it is not in his mind think to have America win. He has a morbid world view because of his mixed racial make up and the way he was raised. That is why he did so many drugs for so long, his words, not mine.
Regardless if you are a Democrat, Republican, Independent, etc....If you love this country, if you believe in America, First, Last, and Always, then you will vote for John McCain.
If you loathe America and want us to fail, you will vote Obama.
July 26, 2008
11:12 a.m.
Suggest removal
Steve_In_Denver writes:
Yeah...right...McCain showed a lot of Courage by siding with the Bush administration yet again...this took a lot of guts. (hahahah) Why not show some REAL courage and put your VOTE where your mouth is McCain and show some support for Vets. Or where was this so called courage when he left his disabled wife who stood by him through all his tough times for a younger richer woman?
It's amazing to me to see what McCain's campaign has been reduced to. They are desperate...Courage...hahahaha.
July 26, 2008
11:18 a.m.
Suggest removal
Coco writes:
McCain = No Country for Old Men
July 26, 2008
11:25 a.m.
Suggest removal
GetReal writes:
Charles_B writes:
"Saying it took courage to back the "surge" is like saying it took courage for the lemmings to walk over a cliff.
It may have taken courage, but it was still stupid"
Gee Charles, maybe you could expound on why backing a successful military strategy that has drastically cut the number of casualties, brought needed stabilization that has moved Iraq closer to being self sufficient, and will eventually facilitate the draw-down of U.S. troops "stupid"?
Why don't you just say what I believe you and countless other "Progressives" really wished for- that being the surge wouldn't make a difference, there would be more deaths and America would retreat in a humiliating defeat.
As always, any success in the war on terror must be immediately questioned, downplayed and then ignored by libs and their willing accomplices in the MSM, and in some cases(read today's Littwin column) are spun as actually helping Obama.
Straight from the Media Matters playbook, and not surprising, simpletons like yourself lap it up like drooling Pavlovian dogs.
July 26, 2008
1:09 p.m.
Suggest removal
SL10 writes:
rg writes:
Have a heart; McCain is disabled; the VA sends him nearly $5,000 monthly; the guy can't work; his wife is worth one hundred $million; his senate salary, his speech-making, his perks just don't pay enough. He needs $400,000 as President with its enormous perks. (Editted to keep to 3000 characters)
McCain views on SSA....
McCain gets Social Security but criticizes system
By DAVID A. LIEB, Associated Press Writer
www.yahoo.com
Thu Jul 17, 3:21 PM ET
KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Although Republican presidential candidate John McCain has called Social Security "a disgrace," he still cashes his own retirement check every month.
"I'm receiving the benefits, the system is broken and, unfortunately, my children and grandchildren, according to the trustees of the Social Security system, will not have the same benefits the present retirees have," McCain told reporters Thursday on his campaign bus.
McCain's 2007 tax return shows Social Security benefits of $23,157 for the year, an average of $1,929.75 a month. He said he started receiving the payments "whenever I was eligible."
Asked last week by a young woman at a town-hall meeting in Portsmouth, Ohio, if she is likely to receive Social Security benefits one day, McCain said it is unlikely without fixing the system.
"Americans have got to understand that we are paying present-day retirees with the taxes paid by young workers in America today," he said. "And that's a disgrace. It's an absolute disgrace, and it's got to be fixed."
Social Security benefits are projected to exceed the system's tax revenues in about nine years. The program's trustees have said the Social Security trust fund will be depleted by 2041 unless the system is changed.
McCain, who will turn 72 next month, was eligible to receive full-retirement benefits when he turned 65. In 2008, the maximum benefit for a person retiring at full retirement age was $2,185.
McCain reported a total income of $405,409 in 2007. As a senator, he is paid $169,300 a year. Last year, he donated $105,467 to charity, his return shows.
McCain's wife, Cindy, reported a total income of more than $6 million in 2006, according to the campaign. She files her tax return separately from her husband and has received an extension for 2007. Heiress to a large Arizona beer distributorship, she is reportedly worth more than $100 million.
People are not required to take Social Security payments, according to B.J. Jarrett, a spokesman with the Social Security Administration.
"An individual does have the right to refuse his/her Social Security retirement benefit. However, Social Security is an entitlement program and an individual would essentially be forfeiting a benefit based upon contributions during his/her working lifetime," Jarrett said.
July 26, 2008
2:33 p.m.
Suggest removal
davis_x_machina writes:
I'm trying to figure out when the U.S. Army instituted the rank of Battle Captain from the letter above purporting to give the straight of what happened in Afghanistan. Even if this is real and the letter writer is a "battle captain", how would Senator Obama's visit differ from mcinane's stroll through a Baghdad market- which got bombed the next day- with a reinforced rifle platoon for cover and helicopter gunships overhead?This "battle captain" says the news is all fake. I think this letter and the "battle captain" author is the fake. I see I'm not the only one to wonder. certainly in my time with the 2nd Bn., 12th Inf. Reg., 25th Inf. Div. RVN 1965-1966 I never heard of a "battle captain" . I think the wingnuts are going to have to hire a better class of propagandist if they really intend BS like that to fly.Regardless, My question still stands how does one VIP's visit to a combat zone differ from anothers?
July 26, 2008
3:02 p.m.
Suggest removal
sawzallartist writes:
The letter you are referring to has been uncovered as a blast email from the RNC. A LIE.
Violence is down because of 6 million displaced Iraqis, the genocide that occurred while we were flubbing the occupation and maybe a little bit surge. McCain gave credit for the Anbar Awakening on the surge...when that started months before it was used as reasons to have a surge. That is not understanding the situation.
July 26, 2008
4:37 p.m.
Suggest removal
SweetRevenge writes:
Charles_b
The surge is working, therefore backing it was not stupid.
Do you have FACTS that say otherwise, that say the surge is not working? If not, then stop making emotional assertions based on what we can only presume is illogical conjecture.
July 26, 2008
6:10 p.m.
Suggest removal
gr8fun4me writes:
I used to be vote Republican but no more. Every time they've been in office a major event happens that doesn't do the country any good at all. During the Reagan years we had the huge Savings and Loan Scandal that closed 211 banks. A major recession during George Bush senior's reign, the Enron scandal and then the mortgage mess and the Iraq war during George Bush's Jr reign. Folks, there is a pattern here. All the deregulation hasn't done anything but cost the taxpayer big bucks. The mortgage mess is going to cost the taxpayer hundreds of billions of dollars, some estimates are close to a $1 trillion. The pattern is deregulate the industries (phone, airlines, energy) on the premise of lowering the bills but it only works for a little while until the greed kicks in. I want the brightest person we can get to run the country, period. And we all know who that man is, plus he is amazingly organized!
July 26, 2008
6:11 p.m.
Suggest removal
Charles_B writes:
GetReal asked:
"Gee Charles, maybe you could expound on why backing a successful military strategy that has drastically cut the number of casualties, brought needed stabilization that has moved Iraq closer to being self sufficient, and will eventually facilitate the draw-down of U.S. troops "stupid"?"
Because your premises are false.
July 26, 2008
6:27 p.m.
Suggest removal
Charles_B writes:
SweetRevenge asked:
"Do you have FACTS that say otherwise, that say the surge is not working? If not, then stop making emotional assertions based on what we can only presume is illogical conjecture."
I don't need to prove a negative. You need to prove a positive--a direct causal relationship between the so-called "surge" and the improved conditions on the ground in some parts of Iraq.
You need to quit conveniently forgetting that the chief barometer of the "success" of the surge was put forth as "political reconciliation" for which the surge was supposed to provide "breathing room". I would like to see you make a case that on that front the surge has "succeeded".
It is tremendously arrogant to claim that what is going on in Iraq is some sort of "victory" given the tremendous resources it in both blood and treasure it has cost us, the horrific loss of innocent Iraqi lives that invasion catalyzed, and the *fact*--as proclaimed by *our own intelligence officials*--that the state of our general security is more perilous now than when we invaded.
You can look for silver linings all you want, but the decision to invade Iraq was *the wrong one* under any honest cost/benefit analysis.
I'd be glad to discuss honestly the circumstances in Iraq that have engendered more stability, but not in the partisan frames that you choose, or on a foundation of mistaken assumptions.
July 26, 2008
6:32 p.m.
Suggest removal
GetReal writes:
Charles B-
With all due respect,
You're an idiot.
Until you are prepared to attempt a logical defense explaining your asinine position that the surge was "stupid",
Could you do us all a favor and just STFU?
Thanks in advance.
July 26, 2008
6:49 p.m.
Suggest removal
Charles_B writes:
GetReal:
So you're unable to support your premises?
Fair enough..
July 26, 2008
7 p.m.
Suggest removal
GetReal writes:
Wow,
The worlds leading wire service, the Associated Press, has just declared -
THE U.S. IS NOW WINNING THE WAR!!!
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jz...
That popping sound you hear is Moonbats heads exploding everywhere.
July 26, 2008
7:09 p.m.
Suggest removal
GetReal writes:
Charles-
If the surge was not responsible for the turnaround, by all means make your case for what was.
While you are at it, explain why you consider the surge stupid.
You've been asked multiple times and have yet to give your reasoning.
Cut to the chase or our conversation is over.
July 26, 2008
7:18 p.m.
Suggest removal
SweetRevenge writes:
charles_b:
Put up or shut up. YOU asserted that those who supported the surge were stupid. It's YOUR assertion. Prove with FACTS that the surge did not work.
Soldiers die in wars. It's what they do. You have to prove it was in vain. You are always asking others to be logical in their assertions. Now you prove yo