Protesters, police educate, gear up for convention
By Sara Burnett, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published July 17, 2008 at 7:32 p.m.
Updated July 18, 2008 at 11:32 a.m.
Barry Gutierrez / The Rocky
Ron Lewis shoots video and transmits it to his Web site, ronlewis.com/live, at an event Thursday by We Are Change Colorado. The organization said it plans to video DNC protests and police, posting clips on YouTube.com for the public to see.
A sample of groups, some of their causes and what they're planning:
* Students for Peace and Justice: Grass-roots movement against the war in Iraq. Supports immigrant rights, more diplomacy with Iran and end to death penalty. Part of Alliance for Real Democracy, which plans concerts and classes in City Park.
* Escuela Tlatelolco de Estudios: Denver private school for young Hispanics, also active in issues affecting immigrants and indigenous communities. Has permit for an immigrant-rights parade on Aug. 26.
* CODEPINK: Opposes the war in Iraq, wants resources put into health care and education. Name is a play on President Bush's color-coded terror alert levels. Part of Alliance for Real Democracy events at City Park.
* Americans for Safe Access: Advocates for safe and legal access to marijuana for medical and other scientific use. Has permit for a parade on Aug. 28.
* Unconventional Denver: Uses direct action to hold Democrats accountable for policies such as environmental degradation, war and corporate funding of political campaigns and conventions.
Direct actions could include targeting delegate hotels and parties, trying to block delegate access to DNC.
Photo by Barry Gutierrez
Patrons at the Appaloosa Grill on the 16th Street Mall peer out the window to watch Shannon McNamara, left, and Rob Weiland, right, members of We Are Change Colorado, prepare DVDs to distribute.
Dozens of protest groups are planning a full schedule of classes, concerts, marches and other actions during the Democratic National Convention, hoping to capture the world's attention and recruit new activists.
They are both energized and organized, and most insist they are not looking for trouble.
"We are completely peaceful," said Rob Weiland, a 37-year-old courier from Denver and member of the group We Are Change Colorado. "We follow the ideals of Ghandi."
The organization will be videotaping other groups and police during the DNC, scheduled for Aug. 25 to 28.
They'll post the videos on YouTube.com or the group's Web site so the public may see what's happening without the filter of mainstream media, Weiland said.
If any protest groups are provoking police, he said, "our cameras will be on them."
The Alliance for Real Democracy, a coalition of 18 groups, is planning a week of classes in City Park on topics such as non violence and how to organize a demonstration. A concert with Denver band the Flobots also is in the works.
The large-scale effort is being planned by six or seven different committees, focusing on areas such as fundraising, promotions and working with city officials, member Duke Austin said.
"This is on a much bigger scale than anything we've done so far, so it requires additional organizing," said Austin, a 33-year-old Ph.D. candidate at the University of Colorado who leads the group Students for Peace and Justice.
"I think it will be an incredible learning experience for everybody there," he said.
Police, meanwhile, are doing some preparing of their own.
By the time the convention starts, most officers working the DNC will have completed at least 30 hours of special training, Mayor John Hickenlooper said. It includes how to diffuse problems, so that nonviolent situations don't escalate.
While the majority of protesters don't want to break the law, the city is readying for "some bad characters," Hickenlooper said.
Denver received a $50 million federal grant for security that will be used for personnel and equipment.
The city won't say what type of equipment it's buying with the money.
But a local company announced last month it had sold Denver 88 guns that fire a pepper spray-like substance instead of bullets for use during the DNC. The weapons may be used to incapacitate people, stop riots or disperse crowds.
Those purchases worry Ben Yager, 23, of Unconventional Denver, a local offshoot of the national group Unconventional Action.
The group is often mentioned as one most likely to cause problems for police during the convention.
Its approach is one of direct action, such as blocking access to corporate-funded parties or blocking delegates from leaving their hotels to go to the convention and vote.
The activities could land members in jail, the group's Web site acknowledges.
But the site also states that if people are arrested, they're expected to be released in time to join a caravan to the Republican National Convention in Minnesota.
Asked whether the group was planning violence in Denver, Yager said, "Absolutely not."
"We're preparing for the police to be violent," he said, adding that the equipment purchased by police is likely to be used first on groups like his.
The group held a camp in the mountains last weekend, where they readied for the DNC.
Participants won't discuss details of the camp, but Yager said among the topics was how to protect oneself from police, and how to "do it in a way that won't get you sent to jail."
Protesters who do end up behind bars will have some allies.
Today at the University of Denver, the People's Law Project will train attorneys who are volunteering to represent people who believe their First Amendment rights are violated during the DNC.
The group encouraged any activists or other members of the community to attend a noon lunch on free speech rights.
July 17, 2008
8:37 p.m.
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Alive writes:
Communism will not be allowed to take over this nation. Period.
July 17, 2008
9:22 p.m.
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bigkid writes:
hope they tear up the place and destroy the Dirty Nazis Convention
(DNC)..the DEMONRATS deserve it and "Dumbo Obama" will be toast
July 17, 2008
9:32 p.m.
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Mike846 writes:
The Dems are so caught up in political correctness they end up with everyone from Marxists to PETA in their face simply because the fringe groups think the Democrat Party will maybe listen to them. Of course, the decisions are all made by old-line party hacks, "super-delegates" and the usual suspect power brokers. As messed up as the Republicans are this year, from Bush on down, if the Dems can't win Congress AND the Presidency, they are truly doomed to extinction. They've got it all on a silver platter in front of them, and continue to shoot themselves in the foot. What a voter tells a pollster is one thing; what they do when it comes time to pull the lever is another. Its going to be violent in the streets, and our brave police are going to be right in the middle of it, with no support from the Dems, who will probably harshly criticize the methods of the very people who are protecting them and our city from these hooligans. Hide and watch. Hickenlooper will say the police overreacted, the Dem bosses will blame it on Bush infiltrators who instigated the trouble, and the national media will support them both. I actually think its a GOOD thing that there will be lots of video cams, cell phone cams, and the like around. Its going to be tough to deny who started the trouble when "the whole world is WATCHING!". Of course, just like they did in Chicago in '68 and in Los Angeles last year during the march of illegal aliens (yeah, those folks are really hiding in the shadows, alright), the media will carefully edit THEIR pictures so that the rock and bottle throwing from the "activists" that starts it all is not shown. These people are as predictable as the sun rising and as transparent as SaranWrap. Gimme a break. Mike
July 17, 2008
9:38 p.m.
cboeman writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
July 17, 2008
9:52 p.m.
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meesterbig writes:
The happiest guy in Denver these days is Ward Churchill's attorney, David Lane.
July 17, 2008
10:07 p.m.
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AC writes:
Tommy writes:
"The Democrats draw all of the fruits and nuts around. The Democratic party today is for losers that don’t own any property, are Communists, and/or plain old morons that don’t understand the real world in which we live. Obama isn’t far from that either."
Tommy, seek help.
July 17, 2008
10:47 p.m.
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raveille writes:
I can't agree more with the comments here so far. Man, it's refreshing to see that there's still people out there that actually see past Obama's BS politiking and rhetoric...
July 17, 2008
10:58 p.m.
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Gern writes:
Democrats hate their own country. They deny that American culture even exists or that American culture is something worth loving and defending. They hate that we are a sovereign nation. They hate that we have law and order. They hate that others have the right not to be politically correct. They hate that some people who are smart and self-reliant usually enjoy a better standard of living than most because they planned ahead, obeyed the law, and worked hard. They hate that a parent who does well in life--thanks to his or her own smarts and hard work, can leave their own money to their own children. They hate the fact that they cannot force others to think and behave as they wish. They hate people of faith. They hate the family unit, especially if it's happy and stable and has a real mother and a real father. They hate bravery and loyalty and any sense of duty to country. It is therefore no surprise that they will attack our Democratic process--something that tens of thousands of Americans have died to defend over the centuries (an act which all Democrats openly mock and sneer at), because destroying is the only thing Democrats are good at. They can't kill enough babies or surrender wars fast enough and it enrages them. They essentially stand for nothing but self-hate and failure and cynicism and anarchy and social destruction and I hope their violent, ruinous, actions at their *own* convention helps wake the rest of America up to what Democrats want to do to America--RIP IT APART!
July 17, 2008
11:08 p.m.
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pmm writes:
Fascists such as Tommy and the rest of the echoing dittohead idiots are such windbags and cowards. Yawn. I got your communist manifesto right here big man.
July 17, 2008
11:20 p.m.
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pmm writes:
Hey Gern get worked up into a lather much and project your own shortcomings onto others? You did a nice job right there of showing why the country is going to send the Republicans one big pink slip in November. It must ge hard to be such a liar and an incompetent fascist with no love for anyone in this world. You people have shown the whole world for what you are...incompetent losers who refuse to take responsibility for themselves and are easily manipulated by drug addicts and bullies and the worst President in the history of the Republic. Prepare to be even more irrelevant and marginalized and bitter while the grown ups do everything you people couldn't do, like catch Bin Laden and win the war on terror. The Neocon Bush era of failure is over. Buh Bye.
July 17, 2008
11:57 p.m.
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pmm writes:
And you know what Gern?
Yes. We. Can.
July 17, 2008
11:59 p.m.
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Openminded1 writes:
To be honest, I'm beginning to wonder, who is really on these blogs. To read some of the conservative remarks, makes me wonder.....
July 18, 2008
2 a.m.
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18Zwife writes:
Protester and Peaceful. Can you say oxymoron? Sure, sure you can.
BTW you “peaceful protesters”, Ghandi is actually spelled Gandhi and he was once a military officer. Ouch!
Code Pinko as well as the other groups are Marxists. Marxists aren’t anti-war, they’re anti-U.S. military.
July 18, 2008
2:13 a.m.
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N_IGMA writes:
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Can't wait to see the carnage these LIBTARDS cause.
July 18, 2008
3:03 a.m.
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BlueC writes:
Hehehe it would be fun as hell to go to the convention just to spread rumors that random people are GOP agents. Man, i saw that guy a few yrs ago at a republican convention we were protesting at holding up a BUSH is #1 sign. Don't say anything but that chick over there with the camera works for the GOP. Don't look but those guys over there work for Fox news.
July 18, 2008
4:20 a.m.
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Shadow writes:
meesterbig writes:
The happiest guy in Denver these days is Ward Churchill's attorney, David Lane.
___________________________________________________________________
Now thats is the truest statement I have read in a while. With people like Froward69s spin on reality.
Statments like cboeman writes:
because our rights are so diminished, I guarantee you some of these sicko cops plan on killing a few people. but events like these will restore our rights again, and they will be punished
This circus will be very entertainning. I hope its as entertaining as the comments coming from some of the people logged on here.
July 18, 2008
5:47 a.m.
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mlpjlk writes:
this is the case of chickens coming home to roost. Maybe you can get Jesse there and cuts their nuts out....
July 18, 2008
5:53 a.m.
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KenInIowa writes:
While there are fringe groups on both sides of the aisle, I am not sure it solves anything to use name calling as a tactic to prove a point. Such incivility serves just to make the process worse than it already is. If you would write with some sort of basis, and have enough to prove your point other than "Bush s*cks" or "Commi-crats". Such comments do nothing to challange the mind of the reader, and indeed educate them.
As far as the protests go, in this day and age, how can you not expect them?
July 18, 2008
5:53 a.m.
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LWagner writes:
Is a moderator present on this site? I believe wholeheartedly in the 1st Amendment, but name calling adds no substance to any discussion, and only wastes people's time. If one has nothing to say in a constructive vein, please just keep your prejudices to yourself, and your fingers off the keyboard.
July 18, 2008
6:26 a.m.
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TJH writes:
The world will see the nuts in all of their glory, as they protest and riot. Then, they will crown their say all but do nothing fellow Hussein.
Did you see that Chicago's mayor wants the National Guard called in because of the crime? You know, the same city and State that Obama represented in the State and Federal legislatures...
July 18, 2008
6:32 a.m.
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BlackOut writes:
<< Froward69 writes:
Funny how the fascists denounce Communism when that's exactly where the Conservative republican ideology leads... The only reason they haven't succeeded is the US Constitution. however they have tried to undermine it in this very administration.
http://www.midasjones.com/html/what_i... >>
So the US government is now both Fascist and Communist? Do you even know the difference between the two?
Democrats have done plenty to undermine the US Constitution. For starters, Tipper Gore and her husband Al, perhaps you’ve heard of him, helped push the censorship artists during the early 80s. They saved us from ourselves. Now Gore is proposing that we as US citizens must make drastic changes within 10 years to save the planet. I guarantee you this will undermine the US constitution as well.
July 18, 2008
6:44 a.m.
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tombright writes:
Just what do these kids make a living doing? As a recent round of lefty protests wound up and I pushed through traffic getting my clients what they needed to feed their families and pay taxes, I noticed several of the fortyish gone-to-seeders stowing paraphernalia into what would appropriately be the cars of the nonscience professoriat's widows or divorcees: '60s through '80s Volvos and Saabs. Their mommies think they are helping them find their way in an unjust world? These Red-diaper babies have squandered what should have been their productive years living out their parents' delusions.
What would my customers think of me if I hired people who hate themselves and the rest of society so much that they make it a point of arrogant pride to avoid the bathtub, the barber and the men's department at Mervyn's?
July 18, 2008
7:07 a.m.
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JMS writes:
Froward69 has his/ her thought processes impaired. Since when does the Republican Party or moderates of the Democrat Party have Marxist/ communist ideations? Read Karl Marx and then judge what is communist.
As far as who the marxists are in the group of protestors are, try CodePink, who's illustrious leader Medea Benjamin is a true believer of Fidel Castro's version of communism. The rest seem like misguided utopianists following in the 60s and 70s style of protest while looking for Woodstock and free love.
Everyone have a good day, no matter which side of the political aisle one represents.
PS: Midasjones is not a valid website for info.
July 18, 2008
7:18 a.m.
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Gabby514 writes:
Gern...You are right on the mark. I have nothing else to say because you said it so well for me.
July 18, 2008
7:24 a.m.
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Gabby514 writes:
Froward69...just another clueless wonder
July 18, 2008
7:24 a.m.
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scooter6 writes:
Froward69:
The first half of your writing is factually incorrect. The single parenting comment may be true - you can survive; but the kids are drastically affected, and unfortunately not given the guidance they should have.
And the rest of what you say is immature gibberish. If you are old enough to vote, yet another reason for a return to Federalism.
July 18, 2008
7:43 a.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
Wow! 18 groups in classes in City park along with 20,000 tent u folks, cops with pepper spray guns prepared to non-lethally subdue the young communists... Gee, it's crazy. Why nothing like this coming from Minneapolis?
And even better. A caravan from Denver to Mpls after the dnc. I can just see this caravan travelling across Nebraka. I hope they keep a low profile. Nebraska is unlikely to put up with too much out of the ordinary. Are the Merry Pranksters still alive and well? Jack. Jack K.. Is that you?
July 18, 2008
7:51 a.m.
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drkenne writes:
Rings true 40 years later...
"corruption is stranglin' the land
The police force is watching the people
And the people just can't understand
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
America where are you now?
Don't you care about your sons and daughters?
Don't you know we need you now
We can't fight alone against the monster"
© Copyright MCA Music
July 18, 2008
8:16 a.m.
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JMS writes:
Tommy,
My parents are staunch moderate democrats and they believe in private ownership (yes they have lakefront property). Both were teachers in Minnesota and now retired. However, they do not support Obama. They inform me he's too left for them and has not proposed a detailed plan of solving this country's problems (neither has McCain) so there are differences, big differences in the Democratic Party i.e. those that are moderate vs those that have a significant leftist base.
The scary part of Obama's base is he has a significant following of blind sheep and other support, including elements of the Socialist and Communist parties, and he has a better than 50% chance of getting elected. I even voted for Hillary to try and block Obama from winning the nomination.
God help the USA if Obama is elected....
July 18, 2008
8:24 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Here’s the group Unconventional Action’s BLUF: “We aim to organize militant direct action that manifests opposition to both the Democratic and Republican Parties.” http://www.unconventionalaction.org/
These guys are strait Communist activists, don’t let their rhetoric fool you; they advocate violent overthrow of our government. These guys are completely aligned with Marxist doctrine of violent revolution.
“We Are Change Colorado’ are just wishing that we loose the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan or other nations. The videos they play show them interviewing McCain and complaining about FISA or the Patriot Act.
Sounds like they have everything in common with the DNC, sop why would they be protesting?
July 18, 2008
8:31 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Froward69....please explain, i doubt you know what youre talking about.
Froward69 writes:
Funny how the fascists denounce Communism when that's exactly where the Conservative republican ideology leads... The only reason they haven't succeeded is the US Constitution. however they have tried to undermine it in this very administration.
http://www.midasjones.com/html/what_i...
July 18, 2008
8:36 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
PMM......now it's your turn to explain and tie fascism together with conservatives. I doubt you can. Remember, your arguement must be based on facts and not emotion. I'll be waiting......
pmm writes:
Fascists such as Tommy and the rest of the echoing dittohead idiots are such windbags and cowards. Yawn. I got your communist manifesto right here big man.
July 18, 2008
8:40 a.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
Looks like recreate '68 is closer at hand than we first thought...
This UA BLUF outfit is absolutely too far over the edge to contemplate. Violent overthrow of the government is their doctrine. I hope there isn't a conservative or liberal that can align themselves with that rhetoric. I certainly can't. How 'bout you fro? Isn't that too far left for you?
drkenne - nice segue! JK & the boys made statement that is even more true today than then!
July 18, 2008
8:42 a.m.
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LWagner writes:
Froward69 writes that Obama is "NOT a communist." However, when asked why he would consider raising taxes on capital gains when shown that capital gains tax reductions raise revenue to the government, his response was: "Because it's fair." Karl Marx could not have said it better. Though Obama may not be "communist," his philosohies are closer to those of a communist than any other presidential candidate in history. "Extreme socialist" may be a better label.
If you are in favor of socialism, just remember that the successful people in the country (the "evil rich") are the people that provide the jobs (Please send me the name of just one poor person who has provided someone a job). Also remember that extracting more tax from the rich will not change their lifestyles. They will continue going on their vacations to the Riviera, but will cut back on business expenses such as jobs and raises. So will it help anyone if policy is changed because of envy of the rich? IT WILL HURT EVERYONE!
July 18, 2008
8:43 a.m.
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circle_1 writes:
Though the article didn't mention it, won't these groups be relegated to "free speech zones". Or is that vacuous term out of use this time. I don't think any of these groups are planning violence. Protesting of this type is based on expressing their impotent positions which are both politically and physically on the outside. Spending any mental effort arguing whether those inside or outside the convention are the delusional is a waste of time also. Regardless those outside will not be satiated by the fact that Obama and for that matter Hillary if she had won have some real leftist bonas fides, i.e. good faith, standing, and reputation or authentic credentials, with their indirect connections with leftist violence, William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn or the Black Panthers in Hillary's case. For these protesters deep down inside it is not about the convention or the candidate it's about themselves, so they are not agitators but only there to let others know they are agitated.
July 18, 2008
8:51 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Scooter6 -
I do not think that word means what you think it means. Federalism is what you fear we have now - a strong central government, with comparatively weak municipal governments; that is, a system by which power is shared between the federal government and the states. What you're looking for is an antifederalist system, with power reserved to the states -- and it's a deeply un-American ideal, directly contrary to the intent of the founders, who designed this country as a federalist democratic republic.
CLM
July 18, 2008
9 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Froward69 writes:
JMS, I preyed for Gods help when bush got selected too.
Dusty_Piniella... I did explain at 7:18 a.m.
Is not the ideology of "smaller government" directly aimed at Undermining the United States?
No, you did not explain anything. You just threw out another opinion without any facts backing it up. I asked for facts that explain or outline your premis. However, since there are no facts supporting this, you will not be able to write much else except slanted opinion.
July 18, 2008
9:03 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"What you're looking for is an antifederalist system, with power reserved to the states -- and it's a deeply un-American ideal, directly contrary to the intent of the founders, who designed this country as a federalist democratic republic."
A direct contradiction of the 10th Amendment, CLM. The 10th Amendment reads as follows:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
The power of federal government is restricted to those powers expressly delegated to it by the Constitution, all other powers are reserved for the individual states. The federal government was designed by the founders to be very limited in power.
July 18, 2008
9:07 a.m.
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SlouchingTowardBoulder writes:
If these groups are protesting Barack Obama Democrats then you simply know that they are the furthest to the left that one can get. They would make Che blush.
July 18, 2008
9:11 a.m.
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303Centennial writes:
In your posting "artstarzz", you say; "Oil prices still down . Thanks to the dems." I would like to toss out for discussion that gas was only $2/gallon prior to the Dems taking control of the House and Senate. Now with the Dems in control, gas is nearly $4/gallon in Denver and much higher in other cities across the country.
The solution is to....Drill, drill, drill....Incresase supply and the prices will naturally come down. Supply and demand. Market 101.
July 18, 2008
9:11 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Eli...,
CLM had it right if you read a little closer. Anti-federalist government by the states would mean that states could override or disregard what the federal government passed as law, assuming that it was within the feds constitutional authority. This is what the confederacy wanted----to disregard the feds authority to outlaw slavery (under the 1st amendment authority of life, liberty, etc)
July 18, 2008
9:13 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Floydhill wrote:"It's good that they will have their cameras trained on the Denver pigs. This could get interesting!"
Floyd, you really need to read before posting moronic statements. The group mentioned is going to film so the violent protestors can't say the cops started the trouble. Not everybody has a rap sheet like yours and hates cops.
July 18, 2008
9:17 a.m.
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Jimbob261 writes:
Well, well....History is once again repeating itself. Sounds like Denver will be the Chicago DNC convention of 2008. Think back to 1968....issues seem to be the same, protesters have the same agendas. Stop the war, save the aardvarks (or what ever the animal of the week is), stop the Republicans, fight the pigs in the streets. How did that work for you then? Obama equals McGovern (both are big time socialist)and all we can do is hope for the same results in November 2008 that we had in November of 1968. Contrary to what the MSM is reporting (oh..by the way they predicted a McGovern win) I think it will be a electoral college landslide for McCain. Who cares about the popular vote, too many unqualified people vote - they don't know the issues other than the 30 second blurbs on the nightly news, or which animal they want to save this week. Yeah, you want to go to Minn to protest? Don't waste your time, nobody will be listening.
Bush's America: 100 percent Al-Qaida free since 2001....think this is because the Islamofacists were feeling bad about 9/11? NOT! They're too busy fighting our military (God Bless our soldiers) in Iraq to bomb us here.
July 18, 2008
9:17 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Protest groups train on how to provoke the cops, then blame them for problems. It is a protest plan as old as protests. The really funny thing, some of these cops probably side with the protestors message, but the protestors are too stupid to realize that! R68 is a perfect example, go to one of their meetings and listen to the stupis crap they spew! Yes Glenn, I was there, no Glenn I don't want to join your merry band of morons.
July 18, 2008
9:20 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Dusty -
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Fascism is an estreme far-right form of populism, characterized by an emphasis on nationalism, particularly militarized nationalism, at the expense of individual freedoms. Historically, fascist movements have tended to glorify national, racial, or political unity and to advocate purging "unclean" elements, such as foreigners, members of minority religions, and Communists.
The modern american Right tends to glorify militarized nationalism - America as sole superpower, wise parent to the rest of the world; a country whose righteousness cannot be questioned. "Love it or leave it!"
Right-wingers also favor security over liberty; see, for example, the post in favor of warrentless wiretaps, above. See also any of the many posts on this site in which a rightist jeers about peaceful protesters who "deserve" to get beaten, whether or not they're acting illegally, because they're bothering good, upstanding Christian heterosexual Americans.
Right-wingers make a lot of noise about national purity and the need to drive out Mexican immigrants, Muslims, and other members of minorities. As you've shown, right-wingers also tend to denounce those with whom they disagree as "communists" in an effort to silence the opposition to the right-wing movement, just as the American Fascist Party (and the Italian fascists, and the German Nazi party) did in the early part of the last century.
Note: I don't believe most conservatives believe in a fascist idiology. But I do understand why people draw the connection between the extreme right wing in American politics (i.e. David Duke, Jesse Helms, Pat Robertson) and historical fascist political movements.
CLM
__________________
Dusty_Piniella writes:
PMM......now it's your turn to explain and tie fascism together with conservatives. I doubt you can. Remember, your arguement must be based on facts and not emotion. I'll be waiting......
July 18, 2008
9:25 a.m.
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Eli writes:
Dusty,
"assuming that it was within the feds constitutional authority."
Exactly, assuming it was within their authority, meaning a power expressly delegated to the federal government by the constitution.
I read the post by CLM as if he were saying that federal power trumps state power in all cases, but I can see how someone would read the post the way you did too.
CLM, was my interpretation of what you were saying wrong? If so I apologize.
July 18, 2008
9:30 a.m.
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JMBrook writes:
Good luck to the city of Denver. People should be duly skeptical about charges of brutality. Friends in Philadelphia during the 2000 Republican Convention either saw examples of protestor phoniness or violence on local TV or witnessed it in person. But in the mass media version of events since, Philadelphia is now treated as an example of bad policing.
July 18, 2008
9:31 a.m.
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SlouchingTowardBoulder writes:
Above writer notes "Have you ever heard of Prescot Bush . He is president bushes grandfather . He was a nazi supporter . Look it up . you will se what real nazis do ."
First off, it is Prescott and not Prescot. I looked it up and there is no truth to the statement. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott...
However, who was involved with the Nazis and/or a Nazi sympathizer included prominent Democrats including the Harriman family (see the same link above), Lady Astor and, of course, that notorious anti-semite Joe Kennedy. See http://hnn.us/articles/697.html
Also many prominent leftists were members of the America First party to keep America from fighting the Nazis and defending Britain. They included: Socialist Party leader Norman Thomas, leftist novelist Sinclair Lewis, author Gore Vidal (as a student at Phillips Exeter Academy), and Lillian Gish.
These people were isolationists who demanded that America stay at home and not fight for Democracy and order in Europe. Geez, does that sound familiar?
July 18, 2008
9:35 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Eli -
I am familiar with the 10th Amendment, thanks. However, you also need to remember WHY the founders held a constitutional convention.
In 1787, the founders of our country came together to fix problems with the existing government of the time. At that time, the states were loosely bound together by the Articles of Confederation, but each state had much greater power of self-rule than states retained under the new constitution that was drafted in Philadelphia that year.
Under the Articles of Conferation, however, things were not going well. Each state governed itself and was free to levy import taxes against the others, which led to open fighting between the militias of the several states on more than one occasion. The central government lacked to power to do anything about these squabbles, and the Founders (Washington in particular) feared that the people's conception of a united America was at risk of disappearing. It was in this atmosphere that the Constitutional Convention came together and a new national government was designed -- and the design the founders chose was a federalist government, with a strong central government granted significant powers, and the states and the people, respectively, retaining comparatively less power to self-govern than they had previously enjoyed.
CLM
July 18, 2008
9:39 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Eli -
No need to apologize. I'm not making an argument for or against a powerful central government; I merely meant to point out that Scooter6 (and many others nowadays) are using the word "federalism" as though it meant exactly the opposite of what it actually DOES mean. That is, they call for greater federalism when they really intend to call for enlarged states' rights.
CLM
July 18, 2008
9:40 a.m.
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Eli writes:
I'm not sure how that is relevant to the comment I made, CLM. I simply pointed out that the federal government is limited to the powers expressly delegated to it in the constitution- nothing more.
What does your last post have to do with that?
Also, was Dusty correct in his interpretation of your post? If so, then I misunderstood what you were saying.
July 18, 2008
9:42 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"That is, they call for greater federalism when they really intend to call for enlarged states' rights."
Okay, fair enough.
July 18, 2008
9:43 a.m.
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303Centennial writes:
Froward69 -- Please cite your credible source. I am afraid "hearsay" is not a credible source and is only used when no other reliable, independent and credible source can be cited.
July 18, 2008
9:49 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Slouching -
I don't know whether or to what extent Prescott Bush actually sympathized with specific fascist leaders (i.e. Hitler). But there does seem to be significant evidence that he (and many other powerful businessmen, including Heinz) planned a coup against FDR in 1933, believing that the only way to end the Great Depression was to oust the President and institute a fascist government more sympathetic to business interests. This BBC show is among the more thorough reports I've seen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/d...
CLM
July 18, 2008
9:52 a.m.
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maggiedev writes:
first, i have to commend the denver police department for buying pepper spray guns. if this had been china, it would have been real bullets and no restraint.. bravo denver. you do not die from pepper spray.
second: i wonder how many of you young people really know what communism is. my grandson told me the other day that he thought communism would be a good thing if done right. wow, i wondered where he got that idea. he is only 15 years old. my answer to that was: our next door neighbor does not have nearly as much as we do. we are retired and earned all. i asked my grandson if he was willing to give the kid next door half of his video game consoles, half of his games, half of his clothes and half of his bedroom. he said no. there you have it. he decided he did not want to become a communist. our neighbors have enough, but not as much. they work hard, we worked hard. their day will come. they are young yet. ask some of the protesters if they want to give some of the students at their respective universities half of their grades that THEY EARNED because the other students are not as intelligent. bet they won't. ahhh, equality, ain't it grand!!easy to mouth off about it, but when it comes to giving out of your own, how many run for the hills with all kinds of excuses. including my grandson.. he said, but no granny, i earned it. my, my, my..
July 18, 2008
9:52 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
"The rich need the poor more then the poor need the rich .
The poor will work .
The rich will take ."
Never seen a poor man start a company that employees a lot of people. Have you?
July 18, 2008
9:53 a.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
CLM - I must take exception to your definition of fascism.
The primary part being autocratic. The last time I checked Congress had substantially more power than the President. No matter how you define it the USA is not governed by a despot dictator.
The forcible suppression of opposition only seems to take place when those who would violently test our right to free speech. Violent is the operative word here. Hence no fascism yet.
Where do you get the idea that "right-wingers," as you stated represent these ideals? There is a pert of "fascism" that is anti-liberal, meaning anti-communist. I certainly don't have a problem with anti-communism. After all, it's been proven that it doesn't work.
So I, consequently, am unable to figure out your segue from "right-winger" to fascism.
July 18, 2008
9:55 a.m.
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model94 writes:
If Mr Yeager is concerned about not being pepper sprayed, he ought to consider getting a job and going to work that week. It's amazing how much a full time job will keep you out of trouble. Who is supporting these young adults as they trapse across the country, "protesting"? Guy I know, he's one of those 30+ YO "communist anarchist protesting types". Only, he lives with Dad, who happens to be a surgeon, in a multi million dollar home. Its pretty easy to be a communist when you happen not to be one of the peasants.
July 18, 2008
10:02 a.m.
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agreatsign writes:
I frankly couldn't care less if you anti American leftists losers tear the DNC to the ground, but I can assure you we true Americans will never allow communism to take over this country period.
You can try through Obama or some other Marxist demagogue all you want, but we'll never stand for it.
Go take your worthless commie tails across the pond with the rest of the Eurotrash!
July 18, 2008
10:04 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
I would recommend that everyone visit Startribune web sight which is Minneapolis's local paper. First you will read articles about the RNC and the expected protests and about other issues that go with the convention. Then when you read the topics in their blogs and opinion section you will not find that their Democrats aren't whining and crying in letters about their upcoming convention. Now I can't determine if this is because people in that part of the country just know how to accept things better then here or it proves that Republicans are the hate party and the Democrats just accept things with an open mind. According to some (and there is nowhere near as many there) articles they expect the same problems we will have. Can somebody explain that?
July 18, 2008
10:08 a.m.
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MarineGrunt writes:
"Never seen a company where the rich do the work . Have you ?"
Sure have. Check out IBM, Seagate, Amgen, HP, Qwest, Lockheed Martin, Ball, etc etc etc.
You think a High School drop out is going to write complicated Firmware or do Failure Analysis on a rotating magnetic servo system?
Now, I do work with High School Grads that can do this stuff, but they are few and far between.
Maybe if the high school dropouts were not looking to make $17/hr those jobs would not be going to overseas companies? Attempting to live outside your means does not mean everyone else has to help you out...
July 18, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
CLM writes:
Dusty -
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
CLM, I never defined fascism on this site. I was asking a poster to factually tie the two together.
You write;
The modern american Right tends to glorify militarized nationalism - America as sole superpower, wise parent to the rest of the world; a country whose righteousness cannot be questioned. "Love it or leave it!"
I say; A strong national defense being necessary to a free state. Our role as superpower evolved from WW2 and the escalation of the cold war. Our righteousness exists only in our right to defend ourselves, our country, and our constitution against all enemies and at the same time offer refuge and defense to all other peoples whose God given rights are persecuted. We are not taking over other countries and forcing other peoples to our way of life. Your statement above does not qualify as fascism.
You write;
Right-wingers make a lot of noise about national purity and the need to drive out Mexican immigrants, Muslims, and other members of minorities. As you've shown, right-wingers also tend to denounce those with whom they disagree as "communists" in an effort to silence the opposition to the right-wing movement, just as the American Fascist Party (and the Italian fascists, and the German Nazi party) did in the early part of the last century.
I say; No one is trying to drive out Mexican immigrants or any other legal immigrant. The conservatives want to end illegal immigration and deport all illegal immigrated felons. There are literally hundreds of ways of legally immigrating to this country. Why not follow the legal route instead of the illegal one. Conservatives do not denounce EVERYONE they disagree with as communists. If a member of the lefts ideology is swung to the way left (you and I both know what is the far left of the spectrum) then they may be rightfully accused of communist ideology. Nationalization of free market affairs and wealth redistribution are just a couple of things that border up to socialist/communist ideology though not communist in separate application, certainly socialist.
Fascist governments also get into the nationalization of services for their peoples; healthcare, utilities, food, energy, etc. because they are the "providers". This would seem to run more to the far left. (NAZI did stand for the National SOCIALIST German Workers Party) This also directly opposes conservative ideology and the constitution. I really don't think you can put a fascist tag on anyone here but you can put a socialist tag on some.
(PS.. If i'm rambling I apologize, I have a 2 week old here!)
July 18, 2008
10:15 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
Froward69 writes: "Vote republican or we all are gonna die!"
Pretty much sums up the DNC.
Keep in mind, Obama and McCain are both proud members of the SAME congress which is currently enjoying a 9% approval rating. If you are expecting miracles - don't get your hopes up.
It's going to be a long convention...
July 18, 2008
10:21 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
YIOTA
WOW!!! Boy that was a well educated response. Did that take you very long and did you need to use check spell? Now go to there website and come back and tell us how many articles and blogs you can find about their convention if any. That is if you can read.
July 18, 2008
10:21 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
MaggieDev
I understand what you said about your son making that rediculous statement. My daughter is also 15 and one day I picked her up after school and she was telling me about her classes. She asked me if I knew what the best form of government was.. I said, a constitutional republic, she said "nope, communist government" I almost got into a wreck when I heard this and she continued to explain that a communist government would be the best form of government for people if it were done correctly. I asked where she got this information from and she said her teacher told her.
Now you know what your kids are being taught. So much for US History.
July 18, 2008
10:21 a.m.
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303Centennial writes:
The rich man started off poor. He educated himself and followed very basic instincts to success and met challenge and adversity head on. The rich did NOT bow to defeat, he learned from defeat and overcame adversity and challenge. The rich man grew from nothing but a poor man with no more than a simple public education. He sprang to success because of his own actions and NOT standing in line for "hand me outs" waiting for someone to take care of him.
The rich man accepted accountability for himself, his future and his success. He did not rely on others. Today, the rich man employs those who did follow a similar path and chose a less aggressive road. The rich man provides the means for the poor man to support his family.
Today, the poor look to punish the rich for following their dreams and pursuing excellence by taxing them and force them take care of those who refuse to accept accountability for their future.
The reality is, at the end of the day, the rich, including old Obama hhimself, will take advantage of tax loopholes and get richer. Its a tax game and you're kidding yourself to think BO isn't playing the game. It's America and all about the $.
July 18, 2008
10:24 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
Free advice: Don't put your faith in any party or politician. If you want a better life - go out and make one for yourself.
July 18, 2008
10:32 a.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
Dusty, your 10:10 post is right one. CLM doesn't want to answer.
July 18, 2008
10:37 a.m.
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dbarker2 writes:
pmm writes:
<<And you know what Gern?
Yes. We. Can.>>
What does that mean??? Do you Obama supporters realize how ridiculous you sound when defending Obama? If you support him, thats great, but support him with facts about his policies and not just little one liners that don't even make sense. Anytime anyone challenges "the one" all ya'll can do is name call and then throw in something like "time for a new day ... a day called change" or "let's hope for a new change" or "change we can hope for" or anything else that contains the words "hope" or "change" well stop using clichés and show what exactly you mean. Don't just say that you can, explain what exactly you can do. I have no doubt that Barack Obama is a good man, but that doesn't make his liberal, socialist policies right for the country. I can't even count the number of my college age friends who said they were supporting Obama until they were informed of his liberal stances. Don't just jump on the bandwagon because it is the cool thing to do, or because the media says that you should.
July 18, 2008
10:38 a.m.
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Treetop writes:
Any person, group, or government that wants to stop any American from exercising their right to free speech...undeniably identifies themself as an 'enemy' of the United States
July 18, 2008
10:40 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
Dusty_Piniella
First of all I do not say I believe in communism. But if you would do some research and hear what your daughter said (for people) you would find that what was meant by that is under the original writing of communism that was wrote by Marx it did not allow what goes on today with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Now that is not to say that through out history there were dictators that took it and twisted it in a way that made it much worst. But it was first recognized as socialism(which is also a dirty word for some)and our democratic society is capitalism (which works out well for the rich and is not so favorable for the the people)I would talk to the teacher and see how she really put it. I believe our kids should be educated about different governments not just be limited to ours. IT'S CALLED AN OPEN MIND
July 18, 2008
10:45 a.m.
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LearnToSwim writes:
There is no difference between the two parties. The people who purport to represent us DO NOT work for us - they're puppets of transnational corporations. To those of you deluded enough to think Obama represents "change", please take a closer look at his policy advisors - they're largely a gaggle of Clinton-era Neoliberal criminals. He voted in favor of reauthorizing the unconstitutional and liberty-evicerating PATRIOT Act. Most recently betrayal, he voted in favor of granting the telecoms who illegally spied on American citizens retroactive immunity from prosecution. C'mon - he's not even President yet and he's already selling out Americans in favor of placating his corporate masters.
July 18, 2008
10:48 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
dbarker2 writes:
"Do you Obama supporters realize how ridiculous you sound when defending Obama"
Do you here yourself? Speaking of "ridiculous" you should hear yourselves when you defend this clown in the big house now.
July 18, 2008
10:49 a.m.
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Frontranger writes:
Looks like a Focus on the Family meeting in here!
Tommy, do you need to borrow a C-note to fill up your F150?
July 18, 2008
10:50 a.m.
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cottoneyed writes:
Lets be clear, it is the left that is "fascist", they meet perfectly the definition. Their true aim has consistently been, the defeat of Capitalism and the death of the West. Behind it all lies, a virulent hatred of our patriarchal society and the worship of a creator that is greater than the creature. They pride themselves as being "enlightened", Voltaire, Rousseau, and Locke are their inspiration. All these "enlightened" men hated the notion of a creator greater than the creature. For the left to ever prevail, they must eliminate this notion. In the end they will FAIL, but not before they create much pain and anarchy and a manifestation of this will be here, in Denver, in just one month. Teargas cannisters will be a dime a dozen, breathe deep, anarchists.
July 18, 2008
10:52 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
artstarzz writes: "vote Obama in 08"
Fine. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.
All of this flailing around at both conventions will be good for a laugh, but you pretty much wind up with the life you CHOOSE for yourself.
No politician is going to change that.
July 18, 2008
10:53 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Dilligaf
I have read the communist manifesto. I know all about it. The only way that this ideology can ever "work correctly" is if the government has unlimited resources/funds with which to provide the people for their needs. Since they wish to uber-tax the people this wouldn't seem to pose a problem, but since the communist manifesto also abolishes private property or any private ownership what is the incentive that the over taxed worker continues to work, since he has nothing to show for his labor? What is provided is provided to him no matter how much or how little he works. He could just stop working altogether along with everyone else and then the government has nothing with which to provide. Now, the government could force them to work but then that would make them slaves.
Try again, maybe you should make yourself familiar with Marx before you accuse someone else of not knowing.
July 18, 2008
10:55 a.m.
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dbarker2 writes:
dilligaf -
Yes, I do "here" myself. I don't recall defending George Bush in my comment, maybe you were just "hoping" that I would have so that you could have a legitimate argument. My argument was simply that Obama seems to have a whole lot of supporters who really have no clue who and what they are supporting. Whether George Bush is a "clown", as you have put it, or not, is a completely different subject.
July 18, 2008
10:57 a.m.
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Jerryintampa writes:
I can't understand why the Communist leaning groups would want to spoil Hussein's corination in Denver. Hell he is a Socialist and a Socialist State only needs two more thing to be promoted to Communist State. Those two things are prohibiting decent which is already underway with the left, e.g. The Freedom of Access reinstatement. The second thing is disarming the people. The Dems are already seathing about the recent Supreme Court DC ruling on the 2nd Amendment and they will install the liberals to the Supreme Court sufficient to reverse that. Keep it up Hussein you may get the chance to make Lenin proud and destroy this Nation. You should rot in Hell!
July 18, 2008
11:02 a.m.
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303Centennial writes:
Froward69 - Thank you for your feedback from my previous comments. I will say, you did get me to think a little with my last two paragraphs. I would like to consider myself open-minded enough to consider all views. I am certainly not hardwired one way or the other and with good facts backed up by independent evidence, I can be sways. Thanks for helping to keep my mind open.
July 18, 2008
11:03 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
303 centennial, what "good facts" has froward69 presented about anything?
July 18, 2008
11:06 a.m.
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ralphy writes:
I love how a person signed in as PMM was able to paraphrase up there. hahaha Any individual thoughts among the hysterical liberals? ANY Originality? I mean, you can't convincingly turn our arguments against us (a losing proposition, considering we are correct, as well as Right), but at least employ a vocabulary and make a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition with some intellect. (anyone recognize monty python there?) The democrat party- the party of parasites, skanks, murderers, liars thieves and traitors, is an abomination to the concept or freedom. You vermin may prefer to keep your fecal bombs away from the GOP convention.
July 18, 2008
11:07 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
Froward69 writes: "Just like republicans do with no bid contracts,(haliburton, blackwater, KBR...) and Wars for profit.(Vietnam, Iraq)"
Who got us into Vietnam again?
July 18, 2008
11:07 a.m.
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incite_a_riot writes:
There's nothing peaceful about revolution, and our revolution is NOW.
BURN, BABY, BURN!
*chaos in the streets*
July 18, 2008
11:09 a.m.
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steel writes:
"We Are Change Colorado" better known as "WACCO"
Viva la white raza!
July 18, 2008
11:15 a.m.
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Frontranger writes:
The fact is the only ones that will be making trouble at the convention are radical right wing nut jobs. Probably the majority of the ones posting above.
July 18, 2008
11:19 a.m.
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steel writes:
Frontranger writes:
"The fact is the only ones that will be making trouble at the convention are radical right wing nut jobs."
List sources to back up your statement please.
July 18, 2008
11:20 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
incite_a_riot writes: *chaos in the streets*
I don't know about chaos, but I'm sure we'll have plenty of dropouts in the streets.
We have concealed carry laws in this state. I would highly suggest you keep the chaos to a minimum.
July 18, 2008
11:21 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Frontranger.....really do any of the protesting groups have ANY republican affiliations? Please list sources to back up your statement.
July 18, 2008
11:21 a.m.
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jay writes:
"All of this flailing around at both conventions will be good for a laugh, but you pretty much wind up with the life you CHOOSE for yourself.
No politician is going to change that."\
that's a good point, cowboy.
you have to wonder, however, if some politicians' policies just produce better results than others.
the numbers tell us that the clinton policies were better than the bush's for nearly all americans. the data shows that republican presidents have increased our debt nearly exclusively over the past several decades.
if it's going to be the kind of life i choose anyway...why not vote for, rather than against, my own best interests where policy is concerned?
i find that when people vote against their and their family's best interests it is due to some kind of additional factor....say personal beliefs about a wedge issue of some kind.
at that point we're looking at a certain group of folks actively using religion to shape a country in such a way as to be detrimental to most of the population.
sounds a lot like iran.
July 18, 2008
11:21 a.m.
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steel writes:
Froward69 writes:
"Cowboy63, yes it was LBJ that escalated Vietnam. please do not for get it was trickyDick Nixon that squeezed every penny out of it"
Please do not forget that it was Nixon who finally withdrew us from Vietnam. Thanks to him, my second tour was shortened by 2 months.
July 18, 2008
11:22 a.m.
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Konyok writes:
Froward,
According to Merriam Webster:
Fascism
1) a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2) a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.
Wikipedia gives:
Fascism is a term used to describe authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.[
Fascists promote a type of national unity that is usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, national, racial, and/or religious attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, economic planning (including corporatism and autarky), populism, collectivism, autocracy and anti-liberalism (i.e., opposition to political and economic liberalism).
There are lots of perfectly good words that you could use more precisely. Oligarchy, plutarchy and mercantilism spring immediately to mind.
"Fascism" has a very real meaning and your promiscuous use of the word only demeans fascism's historical victims.
You do not convince me that my dog is a greyhound by showing me a picture of a cat.
July 18, 2008
11:22 a.m.
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ralphy writes:
May I explain No-Bid Contracts? Let's say I want to destroy the day of someone... anyone... an annual meeting of ExxonMobil for instance. I WOULD put out bids, as there are hundreds of moron groups who would be willing to go be filthy, unsuccessful slimy dirt to sit in front of the meeting while the attendees come in and out. OK- because of lots of people who can do it, it must be bid. NOW: as is the case over in Iraq and Afhanistan- if the gov