Protesters, police educate, gear up for convention
By Sara Burnett, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published July 17, 2008 at 7:32 p.m.
Updated July 18, 2008 at 11:32 a.m.
Photo by Barry Gutierrez / The Rocky
Ron Lewis shoots video and transmits it to his Web site, ronlewis.com/live, at an event Thursday by We Are Change Colorado. The organization said it plans to video DNC protests and police, posting clips on YouTube.com for the public to see.
A sample of groups, some of their causes and what they're planning:
* Students for Peace and Justice: Grass-roots movement against the war in Iraq. Supports immigrant rights, more diplomacy with Iran and end to death penalty. Part of Alliance for Real Democracy, which plans concerts and classes in City Park.
* Escuela Tlatelolco de Estudios: Denver private school for young Hispanics, also active in issues affecting immigrants and indigenous communities. Has permit for an immigrant-rights parade on Aug. 26.
* CODEPINK: Opposes the war in Iraq, wants resources put into health care and education. Name is a play on President Bush's color-coded terror alert levels. Part of Alliance for Real Democracy events at City Park.
* Americans for Safe Access: Advocates for safe and legal access to marijuana for medical and other scientific use. Has permit for a parade on Aug. 28.
* Unconventional Denver: Uses direct action to hold Democrats accountable for policies such as environmental degradation, war and corporate funding of political campaigns and conventions.
Direct actions could include targeting delegate hotels and parties, trying to block delegate access to DNC.
Photo by Barry Gutierrez © The Rocky
Patrons at the Appaloosa Grill on the 16th Street Mall peer out the window to watch Shannon McNamara, left, and Rob Weiland, right, members of We Are Change Colorado, prepare DVDs to distribute.
Dozens of protest groups are planning a full schedule of classes, concerts, marches and other actions during the Democratic National Convention, hoping to capture the world's attention and recruit new activists.
They are both energized and organized, and most insist they are not looking for trouble.
"We are completely peaceful," said Rob Weiland, a 37-year-old courier from Denver and member of the group We Are Change Colorado. "We follow the ideals of Ghandi."
The organization will be videotaping other groups and police during the DNC, scheduled for Aug. 25 to 28.
They'll post the videos on YouTube.com or the group's Web site so the public may see what's happening without the filter of mainstream media, Weiland said.
If any protest groups are provoking police, he said, "our cameras will be on them."
The Alliance for Real Democracy, a coalition of 18 groups, is planning a week of classes in City Park on topics such as non violence and how to organize a demonstration. A concert with Denver band the Flobots also is in the works.
The large-scale effort is being planned by six or seven different committees, focusing on areas such as fundraising, promotions and working with city officials, member Duke Austin said.
"This is on a much bigger scale than anything we've done so far, so it requires additional organizing," said Austin, a 33-year-old Ph.D. candidate at the University of Colorado who leads the group Students for Peace and Justice.
"I think it will be an incredible learning experience for everybody there," he said.
Police, meanwhile, are doing some preparing of their own.
By the time the convention starts, most officers working the DNC will have completed at least 30 hours of special training, Mayor John Hickenlooper said. It includes how to diffuse problems, so that nonviolent situations don't escalate.
While the majority of protesters don't want to break the law, the city is readying for "some bad characters," Hickenlooper said.
Denver received a $50 million federal grant for security that will be used for personnel and equipment.
The city won't say what type of equipment it's buying with the money.
But a local company announced last month it had sold Denver 88 guns that fire a pepper spray-like substance instead of bullets for use during the DNC. The weapons may be used to incapacitate people, stop riots or disperse crowds.
Those purchases worry Ben Yager, 23, of Unconventional Denver, a local offshoot of the national group Unconventional Action.
The group is often mentioned as one most likely to cause problems for police during the convention.
Its approach is one of direct action, such as blocking access to corporate-funded parties or blocking delegates from leaving their hotels to go to the convention and vote.
The activities could land members in jail, the group's Web site acknowledges.
But the site also states that if people are arrested, they're expected to be released in time to join a caravan to the Republican National Convention in Minnesota.
Asked whether the group was planning violence in Denver, Yager said, "Absolutely not."
"We're preparing for the police to be violent," he said, adding that the equipment purchased by police is likely to be used first on groups like his.
The group held a camp in the mountains last weekend, where they readied for the DNC.
Participants won't discuss details of the camp, but Yager said among the topics was how to protect oneself from police, and how to "do it in a way that won't get you sent to jail."
Protesters who do end up behind bars will have some allies.
Today at the University of Denver, the People's Law Project will train attorneys who are volunteering to represent people who believe their First Amendment rights are violated during the DNC.
The group encouraged any activists or other members of the community to attend a noon lunch on free speech rights.
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July 17, 2008
8:37 p.m.
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Alive writes:
Communism will not be allowed to take over this nation. Period.
July 17, 2008
9:22 p.m.
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bigkid writes:
hope they tear up the place and destroy the Dirty Nazis Convention
(DNC)..the DEMONRATS deserve it and "Dumbo Obama" will be toast
July 17, 2008
9:32 p.m.
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Mike846 writes:
The Dems are so caught up in political correctness they end up with everyone from Marxists to PETA in their face simply because the fringe groups think the Democrat Party will maybe listen to them. Of course, the decisions are all made by old-line party hacks, "super-delegates" and the usual suspect power brokers. As messed up as the Republicans are this year, from Bush on down, if the Dems can't win Congress AND the Presidency, they are truly doomed to extinction. They've got it all on a silver platter in front of them, and continue to shoot themselves in the foot. What a voter tells a pollster is one thing; what they do when it comes time to pull the lever is another. Its going to be violent in the streets, and our brave police are going to be right in the middle of it, with no support from the Dems, who will probably harshly criticize the methods of the very people who are protecting them and our city from these hooligans. Hide and watch. Hickenlooper will say the police overreacted, the Dem bosses will blame it on Bush infiltrators who instigated the trouble, and the national media will support them both. I actually think its a GOOD thing that there will be lots of video cams, cell phone cams, and the like around. Its going to be tough to deny who started the trouble when "the whole world is WATCHING!". Of course, just like they did in Chicago in '68 and in Los Angeles last year during the march of illegal aliens (yeah, those folks are really hiding in the shadows, alright), the media will carefully edit THEIR pictures so that the rock and bottle throwing from the "activists" that starts it all is not shown. These people are as predictable as the sun rising and as transparent as SaranWrap. Gimme a break. Mike
July 17, 2008
9:38 p.m.
cboeman writes:
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
July 17, 2008
9:52 p.m.
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meesterbig writes:
The happiest guy in Denver these days is Ward Churchill's attorney, David Lane.
July 17, 2008
10:07 p.m.
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AC writes:
Tommy writes:
"The Democrats draw all of the fruits and nuts around. The Democratic party today is for losers that don’t own any property, are Communists, and/or plain old morons that don’t understand the real world in which we live. Obama isn’t far from that either."
Tommy, seek help.
July 17, 2008
10:47 p.m.
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raveille writes:
I can't agree more with the comments here so far. Man, it's refreshing to see that there's still people out there that actually see past Obama's BS politiking and rhetoric...
July 17, 2008
10:58 p.m.
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Gern writes:
Democrats hate their own country. They deny that American culture even exists or that American culture is something worth loving and defending. They hate that we are a sovereign nation. They hate that we have law and order. They hate that others have the right not to be politically correct. They hate that some people who are smart and self-reliant usually enjoy a better standard of living than most because they planned ahead, obeyed the law, and worked hard. They hate that a parent who does well in life--thanks to his or her own smarts and hard work, can leave their own money to their own children. They hate the fact that they cannot force others to think and behave as they wish. They hate people of faith. They hate the family unit, especially if it's happy and stable and has a real mother and a real father. They hate bravery and loyalty and any sense of duty to country. It is therefore no surprise that they will attack our Democratic process--something that tens of thousands of Americans have died to defend over the centuries (an act which all Democrats openly mock and sneer at), because destroying is the only thing Democrats are good at. They can't kill enough babies or surrender wars fast enough and it enrages them. They essentially stand for nothing but self-hate and failure and cynicism and anarchy and social destruction and I hope their violent, ruinous, actions at their *own* convention helps wake the rest of America up to what Democrats want to do to America--RIP IT APART!
July 17, 2008
11:08 p.m.
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pmm writes:
Fascists such as Tommy and the rest of the echoing dittohead idiots are such windbags and cowards. Yawn. I got your communist manifesto right here big man.
July 17, 2008
11:20 p.m.
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pmm writes:
Hey Gern get worked up into a lather much and project your own shortcomings onto others? You did a nice job right there of showing why the country is going to send the Republicans one big pink slip in November. It must ge hard to be such a liar and an incompetent fascist with no love for anyone in this world. You people have shown the whole world for what you are...incompetent losers who refuse to take responsibility for themselves and are easily manipulated by drug addicts and bullies and the worst President in the history of the Republic. Prepare to be even more irrelevant and marginalized and bitter while the grown ups do everything you people couldn't do, like catch Bin Laden and win the war on terror. The Neocon Bush era of failure is over. Buh Bye.
July 17, 2008
11:57 p.m.
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pmm writes:
And you know what Gern?
Yes. We. Can.
July 17, 2008
11:59 p.m.
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Openminded1 writes:
To be honest, I'm beginning to wonder, who is really on these blogs. To read some of the conservative remarks, makes me wonder.....
July 18, 2008
2 a.m.
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18Zwife writes:
Protester and Peaceful. Can you say oxymoron? Sure, sure you can.
BTW you “peaceful protesters”, Ghandi is actually spelled Gandhi and he was once a military officer. Ouch!
Code Pinko as well as the other groups are Marxists. Marxists aren’t anti-war, they’re anti-U.S. military.
July 18, 2008
2:13 a.m.
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N_IGMA writes:
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Can't wait to see the carnage these LIBTARDS cause.
July 18, 2008
3:03 a.m.
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BlueC writes:
Hehehe it would be fun as hell to go to the convention just to spread rumors that random people are GOP agents. Man, i saw that guy a few yrs ago at a republican convention we were protesting at holding up a BUSH is #1 sign. Don't say anything but that chick over there with the camera works for the GOP. Don't look but those guys over there work for Fox news.
July 18, 2008
4:20 a.m.
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Shadow writes:
meesterbig writes:
The happiest guy in Denver these days is Ward Churchill's attorney, David Lane.
___________________________________________________________________
Now thats is the truest statement I have read in a while. With people like Froward69s spin on reality.
Statments like cboeman writes:
because our rights are so diminished, I guarantee you some of these sicko cops plan on killing a few people. but events like these will restore our rights again, and they will be punished
This circus will be very entertainning. I hope its as entertaining as the comments coming from some of the people logged on here.
July 18, 2008
5:47 a.m.
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mlpjlk writes:
this is the case of chickens coming home to roost. Maybe you can get Jesse there and cuts their nuts out....
July 18, 2008
5:53 a.m.
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KenInIowa writes:
While there are fringe groups on both sides of the aisle, I am not sure it solves anything to use name calling as a tactic to prove a point. Such incivility serves just to make the process worse than it already is. If you would write with some sort of basis, and have enough to prove your point other than "Bush s*cks" or "Commi-crats". Such comments do nothing to challange the mind of the reader, and indeed educate them.
As far as the protests go, in this day and age, how can you not expect them?
July 18, 2008
5:53 a.m.
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LWagner writes:
Is a moderator present on this site? I believe wholeheartedly in the 1st Amendment, but name calling adds no substance to any discussion, and only wastes people's time. If one has nothing to say in a constructive vein, please just keep your prejudices to yourself, and your fingers off the keyboard.
July 18, 2008
6:26 a.m.
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TJH writes:
The world will see the nuts in all of their glory, as they protest and riot. Then, they will crown their say all but do nothing fellow Hussein.
Did you see that Chicago's mayor wants the National Guard called in because of the crime? You know, the same city and State that Obama represented in the State and Federal legislatures...
July 18, 2008
6:32 a.m.
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BlackOut writes:
<< Froward69 writes:
Funny how the fascists denounce Communism when that's exactly where the Conservative republican ideology leads... The only reason they haven't succeeded is the US Constitution. however they have tried to undermine it in this very administration.
http://www.midasjones.com/html/what_i... >>
So the US government is now both Fascist and Communist? Do you even know the difference between the two?
Democrats have done plenty to undermine the US Constitution. For starters, Tipper Gore and her husband Al, perhaps you’ve heard of him, helped push the censorship artists during the early 80s. They saved us from ourselves. Now Gore is proposing that we as US citizens must make drastic changes within 10 years to save the planet. I guarantee you this will undermine the US constitution as well.
July 18, 2008
6:44 a.m.
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tombright writes:
Just what do these kids make a living doing? As a recent round of lefty protests wound up and I pushed through traffic getting my clients what they needed to feed their families and pay taxes, I noticed several of the fortyish gone-to-seeders stowing paraphernalia into what would appropriately be the cars of the nonscience professoriat's widows or divorcees: '60s through '80s Volvos and Saabs. Their mommies think they are helping them find their way in an unjust world? These Red-diaper babies have squandered what should have been their productive years living out their parents' delusions.
What would my customers think of me if I hired people who hate themselves and the rest of society so much that they make it a point of arrogant pride to avoid the bathtub, the barber and the men's department at Mervyn's?
July 18, 2008
7:07 a.m.
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JMS writes:
Froward69 has his/ her thought processes impaired. Since when does the Republican Party or moderates of the Democrat Party have Marxist/ communist ideations? Read Karl Marx and then judge what is communist.
As far as who the marxists are in the group of protestors are, try CodePink, who's illustrious leader Medea Benjamin is a true believer of Fidel Castro's version of communism. The rest seem like misguided utopianists following in the 60s and 70s style of protest while looking for Woodstock and free love.
Everyone have a good day, no matter which side of the political aisle one represents.
PS: Midasjones is not a valid website for info.
July 18, 2008
7:18 a.m.
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Gabby514 writes:
Gern...You are right on the mark. I have nothing else to say because you said it so well for me.
July 18, 2008
7:24 a.m.
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Gabby514 writes:
Froward69...just another clueless wonder
July 18, 2008
7:24 a.m.
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scooter6 writes:
Froward69:
The first half of your writing is factually incorrect. The single parenting comment may be true - you can survive; but the kids are drastically affected, and unfortunately not given the guidance they should have.
And the rest of what you say is immature gibberish. If you are old enough to vote, yet another reason for a return to Federalism.
July 18, 2008
7:43 a.m.
Suggest removal
FlyfishDude52 writes:
Wow! 18 groups in classes in City park along with 20,000 tent u folks, cops with pepper spray guns prepared to non-lethally subdue the young communists... Gee, it's crazy. Why nothing like this coming from Minneapolis?
And even better. A caravan from Denver to Mpls after the dnc. I can just see this caravan travelling across Nebraka. I hope they keep a low profile. Nebraska is unlikely to put up with too much out of the ordinary. Are the Merry Pranksters still alive and well? Jack. Jack K.. Is that you?
July 18, 2008
7:51 a.m.
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drkenne writes:
Rings true 40 years later...
"corruption is stranglin' the land
The police force is watching the people
And the people just can't understand
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
America where are you now?
Don't you care about your sons and daughters?
Don't you know we need you now
We can't fight alone against the monster"
© Copyright MCA Music
July 18, 2008
8:16 a.m.
Suggest removal
JMS writes:
Tommy,
My parents are staunch moderate democrats and they believe in private ownership (yes they have lakefront property). Both were teachers in Minnesota and now retired. However, they do not support Obama. They inform me he's too left for them and has not proposed a detailed plan of solving this country's problems (neither has McCain) so there are differences, big differences in the Democratic Party i.e. those that are moderate vs those that have a significant leftist base.
The scary part of Obama's base is he has a significant following of blind sheep and other support, including elements of the Socialist and Communist parties, and he has a better than 50% chance of getting elected. I even voted for Hillary to try and block Obama from winning the nomination.
God help the USA if Obama is elected....
July 18, 2008
8:24 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Here’s the group Unconventional Action’s BLUF: “We aim to organize militant direct action that manifests opposition to both the Democratic and Republican Parties.” http://www.unconventionalaction.org/
These guys are strait Communist activists, don’t let their rhetoric fool you; they advocate violent overthrow of our government. These guys are completely aligned with Marxist doctrine of violent revolution.
“We Are Change Colorado’ are just wishing that we loose the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan or other nations. The videos they play show them interviewing McCain and complaining about FISA or the Patriot Act.
Sounds like they have everything in common with the DNC, sop why would they be protesting?
July 18, 2008
8:31 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Froward69....please explain, i doubt you know what youre talking about.
Froward69 writes:
Funny how the fascists denounce Communism when that's exactly where the Conservative republican ideology leads... The only reason they haven't succeeded is the US Constitution. however they have tried to undermine it in this very administration.
http://www.midasjones.com/html/what_i...
July 18, 2008
8:36 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
PMM......now it's your turn to explain and tie fascism together with conservatives. I doubt you can. Remember, your arguement must be based on facts and not emotion. I'll be waiting......
pmm writes:
Fascists such as Tommy and the rest of the echoing dittohead idiots are such windbags and cowards. Yawn. I got your communist manifesto right here big man.
July 18, 2008
8:40 a.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
Looks like recreate '68 is closer at hand than we first thought...
This UA BLUF outfit is absolutely too far over the edge to contemplate. Violent overthrow of the government is their doctrine. I hope there isn't a conservative or liberal that can align themselves with that rhetoric. I certainly can't. How 'bout you fro? Isn't that too far left for you?
drkenne - nice segue! JK & the boys made statement that is even more true today than then!
July 18, 2008
8:42 a.m.
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LWagner writes:
Froward69 writes that Obama is "NOT a communist." However, when asked why he would consider raising taxes on capital gains when shown that capital gains tax reductions raise revenue to the government, his response was: "Because it's fair." Karl Marx could not have said it better. Though Obama may not be "communist," his philosohies are closer to those of a communist than any other presidential candidate in history. "Extreme socialist" may be a better label.
If you are in favor of socialism, just remember that the successful people in the country (the "evil rich") are the people that provide the jobs (Please send me the name of just one poor person who has provided someone a job). Also remember that extracting more tax from the rich will not change their lifestyles. They will continue going on their vacations to the Riviera, but will cut back on business expenses such as jobs and raises. So will it help anyone if policy is changed because of envy of the rich? IT WILL HURT EVERYONE!
July 18, 2008
8:43 a.m.
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circle_1 writes:
Though the article didn't mention it, won't these groups be relegated to "free speech zones". Or is that vacuous term out of use this time. I don't think any of these groups are planning violence. Protesting of this type is based on expressing their impotent positions which are both politically and physically on the outside. Spending any mental effort arguing whether those inside or outside the convention are the delusional is a waste of time also. Regardless those outside will not be satiated by the fact that Obama and for that matter Hillary if she had won have some real leftist bonas fides, i.e. good faith, standing, and reputation or authentic credentials, with their indirect connections with leftist violence, William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn or the Black Panthers in Hillary's case. For these protesters deep down inside it is not about the convention or the candidate it's about themselves, so they are not agitators but only there to let others know they are agitated.
July 18, 2008
8:51 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Scooter6 -
I do not think that word means what you think it means. Federalism is what you fear we have now - a strong central government, with comparatively weak municipal governments; that is, a system by which power is shared between the federal government and the states. What you're looking for is an antifederalist system, with power reserved to the states -- and it's a deeply un-American ideal, directly contrary to the intent of the founders, who designed this country as a federalist democratic republic.
CLM
July 18, 2008
9 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Froward69 writes:
JMS, I preyed for Gods help when bush got selected too.
Dusty_Piniella... I did explain at 7:18 a.m.
Is not the ideology of "smaller government" directly aimed at Undermining the United States?
No, you did not explain anything. You just threw out another opinion without any facts backing it up. I asked for facts that explain or outline your premis. However, since there are no facts supporting this, you will not be able to write much else except slanted opinion.
July 18, 2008
9:03 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"What you're looking for is an antifederalist system, with power reserved to the states -- and it's a deeply un-American ideal, directly contrary to the intent of the founders, who designed this country as a federalist democratic republic."
A direct contradiction of the 10th Amendment, CLM. The 10th Amendment reads as follows:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
The power of federal government is restricted to those powers expressly delegated to it by the Constitution, all other powers are reserved for the individual states. The federal government was designed by the founders to be very limited in power.
July 18, 2008
9:07 a.m.
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SlouchingTowardBoulder writes:
If these groups are protesting Barack Obama Democrats then you simply know that they are the furthest to the left that one can get. They would make Che blush.
July 18, 2008
9:11 a.m.
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303Centennial writes:
In your posting "artstarzz", you say; "Oil prices still down . Thanks to the dems." I would like to toss out for discussion that gas was only $2/gallon prior to the Dems taking control of the House and Senate. Now with the Dems in control, gas is nearly $4/gallon in Denver and much higher in other cities across the country.
The solution is to....Drill, drill, drill....Incresase supply and the prices will naturally come down. Supply and demand. Market 101.
July 18, 2008
9:11 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Eli...,
CLM had it right if you read a little closer. Anti-federalist government by the states would mean that states could override or disregard what the federal government passed as law, assuming that it was within the feds constitutional authority. This is what the confederacy wanted----to disregard the feds authority to outlaw slavery (under the 1st amendment authority of life, liberty, etc)
July 18, 2008
9:13 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Floydhill wrote:"It's good that they will have their cameras trained on the Denver pigs. This could get interesting!"
Floyd, you really need to read before posting moronic statements. The group mentioned is going to film so the violent protestors can't say the cops started the trouble. Not everybody has a rap sheet like yours and hates cops.
July 18, 2008
9:17 a.m.
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Jimbob261 writes:
Well, well....History is once again repeating itself. Sounds like Denver will be the Chicago DNC convention of 2008. Think back to 1968....issues seem to be the same, protesters have the same agendas. Stop the war, save the aardvarks (or what ever the animal of the week is), stop the Republicans, fight the pigs in the streets. How did that work for you then? Obama equals McGovern (both are big time socialist)and all we can do is hope for the same results in November 2008 that we had in November of 1968. Contrary to what the MSM is reporting (oh..by the way they predicted a McGovern win) I think it will be a electoral college landslide for McCain. Who cares about the popular vote, too many unqualified people vote - they don't know the issues other than the 30 second blurbs on the nightly news, or which animal they want to save this week. Yeah, you want to go to Minn to protest? Don't waste your time, nobody will be listening.
Bush's America: 100 percent Al-Qaida free since 2001....think this is because the Islamofacists were feeling bad about 9/11? NOT! They're too busy fighting our military (God Bless our soldiers) in Iraq to bomb us here.
July 18, 2008
9:17 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Protest groups train on how to provoke the cops, then blame them for problems. It is a protest plan as old as protests. The really funny thing, some of these cops probably side with the protestors message, but the protestors are too stupid to realize that! R68 is a perfect example, go to one of their meetings and listen to the stupis crap they spew! Yes Glenn, I was there, no Glenn I don't want to join your merry band of morons.
July 18, 2008
9:20 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Dusty -
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Fascism is an estreme far-right form of populism, characterized by an emphasis on nationalism, particularly militarized nationalism, at the expense of individual freedoms. Historically, fascist movements have tended to glorify national, racial, or political unity and to advocate purging "unclean" elements, such as foreigners, members of minority religions, and Communists.
The modern american Right tends to glorify militarized nationalism - America as sole superpower, wise parent to the rest of the world; a country whose righteousness cannot be questioned. "Love it or leave it!"
Right-wingers also favor security over liberty; see, for example, the post in favor of warrentless wiretaps, above. See also any of the many posts on this site in which a rightist jeers about peaceful protesters who "deserve" to get beaten, whether or not they're acting illegally, because they're bothering good, upstanding Christian heterosexual Americans.
Right-wingers make a lot of noise about national purity and the need to drive out Mexican immigrants, Muslims, and other members of minorities. As you've shown, right-wingers also tend to denounce those with whom they disagree as "communists" in an effort to silence the opposition to the right-wing movement, just as the American Fascist Party (and the Italian fascists, and the German Nazi party) did in the early part of the last century.
Note: I don't believe most conservatives believe in a fascist idiology. But I do understand why people draw the connection between the extreme right wing in American politics (i.e. David Duke, Jesse Helms, Pat Robertson) and historical fascist political movements.
CLM
__________________
Dusty_Piniella writes:
PMM......now it's your turn to explain and tie fascism together with conservatives. I doubt you can. Remember, your arguement must be based on facts and not emotion. I'll be waiting......
July 18, 2008
9:25 a.m.
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Eli writes:
Dusty,
"assuming that it was within the feds constitutional authority."
Exactly, assuming it was within their authority, meaning a power expressly delegated to the federal government by the constitution.
I read the post by CLM as if he were saying that federal power trumps state power in all cases, but I can see how someone would read the post the way you did too.
CLM, was my interpretation of what you were saying wrong? If so I apologize.
July 18, 2008
9:30 a.m.
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JMBrook writes:
Good luck to the city of Denver. People should be duly skeptical about charges of brutality. Friends in Philadelphia during the 2000 Republican Convention either saw examples of protestor phoniness or violence on local TV or witnessed it in person. But in the mass media version of events since, Philadelphia is now treated as an example of bad policing.
July 18, 2008
9:31 a.m.
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SlouchingTowardBoulder writes:
Above writer notes "Have you ever heard of Prescot Bush . He is president bushes grandfather . He was a nazi supporter . Look it up . you will se what real nazis do ."
First off, it is Prescott and not Prescot. I looked it up and there is no truth to the statement. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott...
However, who was involved with the Nazis and/or a Nazi sympathizer included prominent Democrats including the Harriman family (see the same link above), Lady Astor and, of course, that notorious anti-semite Joe Kennedy. See http://hnn.us/articles/697.html
Also many prominent leftists were members of the America First party to keep America from fighting the Nazis and defending Britain. They included: Socialist Party leader Norman Thomas, leftist novelist Sinclair Lewis, author Gore Vidal (as a student at Phillips Exeter Academy), and Lillian Gish.
These people were isolationists who demanded that America stay at home and not fight for Democracy and order in Europe. Geez, does that sound familiar?
July 18, 2008
9:35 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Eli -
I am familiar with the 10th Amendment, thanks. However, you also need to remember WHY the founders held a constitutional convention.
In 1787, the founders of our country came together to fix problems with the existing government of the time. At that time, the states were loosely bound together by the Articles of Confederation, but each state had much greater power of self-rule than states retained under the new constitution that was drafted in Philadelphia that year.
Under the Articles of Conferation, however, things were not going well. Each state governed itself and was free to levy import taxes against the others, which led to open fighting between the militias of the several states on more than one occasion. The central government lacked to power to do anything about these squabbles, and the Founders (Washington in particular) feared that the people's conception of a united America was at risk of disappearing. It was in this atmosphere that the Constitutional Convention came together and a new national government was designed -- and the design the founders chose was a federalist government, with a strong central government granted significant powers, and the states and the people, respectively, retaining comparatively less power to self-govern than they had previously enjoyed.
CLM
July 18, 2008
9:39 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Eli -
No need to apologize. I'm not making an argument for or against a powerful central government; I merely meant to point out that Scooter6 (and many others nowadays) are using the word "federalism" as though it meant exactly the opposite of what it actually DOES mean. That is, they call for greater federalism when they really intend to call for enlarged states' rights.
CLM
July 18, 2008
9:40 a.m.
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Eli writes:
I'm not sure how that is relevant to the comment I made, CLM. I simply pointed out that the federal government is limited to the powers expressly delegated to it in the constitution- nothing more.
What does your last post have to do with that?
Also, was Dusty correct in his interpretation of your post? If so, then I misunderstood what you were saying.
July 18, 2008
9:42 a.m.
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Eli writes:
"That is, they call for greater federalism when they really intend to call for enlarged states' rights."
Okay, fair enough.
July 18, 2008
9:43 a.m.
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303Centennial writes:
Froward69 -- Please cite your credible source. I am afraid "hearsay" is not a credible source and is only used when no other reliable, independent and credible source can be cited.
July 18, 2008
9:49 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Slouching -
I don't know whether or to what extent Prescott Bush actually sympathized with specific fascist leaders (i.e. Hitler). But there does seem to be significant evidence that he (and many other powerful businessmen, including Heinz) planned a coup against FDR in 1933, believing that the only way to end the Great Depression was to oust the President and institute a fascist government more sympathetic to business interests. This BBC show is among the more thorough reports I've seen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/d...
CLM
July 18, 2008
9:52 a.m.
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maggiedev writes:
first, i have to commend the denver police department for buying pepper spray guns. if this had been china, it would have been real bullets and no restraint.. bravo denver. you do not die from pepper spray.
second: i wonder how many of you young people really know what communism is. my grandson told me the other day that he thought communism would be a good thing if done right. wow, i wondered where he got that idea. he is only 15 years old. my answer to that was: our next door neighbor does not have nearly as much as we do. we are retired and earned all. i asked my grandson if he was willing to give the kid next door half of his video game consoles, half of his games, half of his clothes and half of his bedroom. he said no. there you have it. he decided he did not want to become a communist. our neighbors have enough, but not as much. they work hard, we worked hard. their day will come. they are young yet. ask some of the protesters if they want to give some of the students at their respective universities half of their grades that THEY EARNED because the other students are not as intelligent. bet they won't. ahhh, equality, ain't it grand!!easy to mouth off about it, but when it comes to giving out of your own, how many run for the hills with all kinds of excuses. including my grandson.. he said, but no granny, i earned it. my, my, my..
July 18, 2008
9:53 a.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
CLM - I must take exception to your definition of fascism.
The primary part being autocratic. The last time I checked Congress had substantially more power than the President. No matter how you define it the USA is not governed by a despot dictator.
The forcible suppression of opposition only seems to take place when those who would violently test our right to free speech. Violent is the operative word here. Hence no fascism yet.
Where do you get the idea that "right-wingers," as you stated represent these ideals? There is a pert of "fascism" that is anti-liberal, meaning anti-communist. I certainly don't have a problem with anti-communism. After all, it's been proven that it doesn't work.
So I, consequently, am unable to figure out your segue from "right-winger" to fascism.
July 18, 2008
9:55 a.m.
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model94 writes:
If Mr Yeager is concerned about not being pepper sprayed, he ought to consider getting a job and going to work that week. It's amazing how much a full time job will keep you out of trouble. Who is supporting these young adults as they trapse across the country, "protesting"? Guy I know, he's one of those 30+ YO "communist anarchist protesting types". Only, he lives with Dad, who happens to be a surgeon, in a multi million dollar home. Its pretty easy to be a communist when you happen not to be one of the peasants.
July 18, 2008
10:02 a.m.
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agreatsign writes:
I frankly couldn't care less if you anti American leftists losers tear the DNC to the ground, but I can assure you we true Americans will never allow communism to take over this country period.
You can try through Obama or some other Marxist demagogue all you want, but we'll never stand for it.
Go take your worthless commie tails across the pond with the rest of the Eurotrash!
July 18, 2008
10:04 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
I would recommend that everyone visit Startribune web sight which is Minneapolis's local paper. First you will read articles about the RNC and the expected protests and about other issues that go with the convention. Then when you read the topics in their blogs and opinion section you will not find that their Democrats aren't whining and crying in letters about their upcoming convention. Now I can't determine if this is because people in that part of the country just know how to accept things better then here or it proves that Republicans are the hate party and the Democrats just accept things with an open mind. According to some (and there is nowhere near as many there) articles they expect the same problems we will have. Can somebody explain that?
July 18, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
CLM writes:
Dusty -
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
CLM, I never defined fascism on this site. I was asking a poster to factually tie the two together.
You write;
The modern american Right tends to glorify militarized nationalism - America as sole superpower, wise parent to the rest of the world; a country whose righteousness cannot be questioned. "Love it or leave it!"
I say; A strong national defense being necessary to a free state. Our role as superpower evolved from WW2 and the escalation of the cold war. Our righteousness exists only in our right to defend ourselves, our country, and our constitution against all enemies and at the same time offer refuge and defense to all other peoples whose God given rights are persecuted. We are not taking over other countries and forcing other peoples to our way of life. Your statement above does not qualify as fascism.
You write;
Right-wingers make a lot of noise about national purity and the need to drive out Mexican immigrants, Muslims, and other members of minorities. As you've shown, right-wingers also tend to denounce those with whom they disagree as "communists" in an effort to silence the opposition to the right-wing movement, just as the American Fascist Party (and the Italian fascists, and the German Nazi party) did in the early part of the last century.
I say; No one is trying to drive out Mexican immigrants or any other legal immigrant. The conservatives want to end illegal immigration and deport all illegal immigrated felons. There are literally hundreds of ways of legally immigrating to this country. Why not follow the legal route instead of the illegal one. Conservatives do not denounce EVERYONE they disagree with as communists. If a member of the lefts ideology is swung to the way left (you and I both know what is the far left of the spectrum) then they may be rightfully accused of communist ideology. Nationalization of free market affairs and wealth redistribution are just a couple of things that border up to socialist/communist ideology though not communist in separate application, certainly socialist.
Fascist governments also get into the nationalization of services for their peoples; healthcare, utilities, food, energy, etc. because they are the "providers". This would seem to run more to the far left. (NAZI did stand for the National SOCIALIST German Workers Party) This also directly opposes conservative ideology and the constitution. I really don't think you can put a fascist tag on anyone here but you can put a socialist tag on some.
(PS.. If i'm rambling I apologize, I have a 2 week old here!)
July 18, 2008
10:15 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
Froward69 writes: "Vote republican or we all are gonna die!"
Pretty much sums up the DNC.
Keep in mind, Obama and McCain are both proud members of the SAME congress which is currently enjoying a 9% approval rating. If you are expecting miracles - don't get your hopes up.
It's going to be a long convention...
July 18, 2008
10:21 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
YIOTA
WOW!!! Boy that was a well educated response. Did that take you very long and did you need to use check spell? Now go to there website and come back and tell us how many articles and blogs you can find about their convention if any. That is if you can read.
July 18, 2008
10:21 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
MaggieDev
I understand what you said about your son making that rediculous statement. My daughter is also 15 and one day I picked her up after school and she was telling me about her classes. She asked me if I knew what the best form of government was.. I said, a constitutional republic, she said "nope, communist government" I almost got into a wreck when I heard this and she continued to explain that a communist government would be the best form of government for people if it were done correctly. I asked where she got this information from and she said her teacher told her.
Now you know what your kids are being taught. So much for US History.
July 18, 2008
10:21 a.m.
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303Centennial writes:
The rich man started off poor. He educated himself and followed very basic instincts to success and met challenge and adversity head on. The rich did NOT bow to defeat, he learned from defeat and overcame adversity and challenge. The rich man grew from nothing but a poor man with no more than a simple public education. He sprang to success because of his own actions and NOT standing in line for "hand me outs" waiting for someone to take care of him.
The rich man accepted accountability for himself, his future and his success. He did not rely on others. Today, the rich man employs those who did follow a similar path and chose a less aggressive road. The rich man provides the means for the poor man to support his family.
Today, the poor look to punish the rich for following their dreams and pursuing excellence by taxing them and force them take care of those who refuse to accept accountability for their future.
The reality is, at the end of the day, the rich, including old Obama hhimself, will take advantage of tax loopholes and get richer. Its a tax game and you're kidding yourself to think BO isn't playing the game. It's America and all about the $.
July 18, 2008
10:24 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
Free advice: Don't put your faith in any party or politician. If you want a better life - go out and make one for yourself.
July 18, 2008
10:32 a.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
Dusty, your 10:10 post is right one. CLM doesn't want to answer.
July 18, 2008
10:37 a.m.
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dbarker2 writes:
pmm writes:
<<And you know what Gern?
Yes. We. Can.>>
What does that mean??? Do you Obama supporters realize how ridiculous you sound when defending Obama? If you support him, thats great, but support him with facts about his policies and not just little one liners that don't even make sense. Anytime anyone challenges "the one" all ya'll can do is name call and then throw in something like "time for a new day ... a day called change" or "let's hope for a new change" or "change we can hope for" or anything else that contains the words "hope" or "change" well stop using clichés and show what exactly you mean. Don't just say that you can, explain what exactly you can do. I have no doubt that Barack Obama is a good man, but that doesn't make his liberal, socialist policies right for the country. I can't even count the number of my college age friends who said they were supporting Obama until they were informed of his liberal stances. Don't just jump on the bandwagon because it is the cool thing to do, or because the media says that you should.
July 18, 2008
10:38 a.m.
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Treetop writes:
Any person, group, or government that wants to stop any American from exercising their right to free speech...undeniably identifies themself as an 'enemy' of the United States
July 18, 2008
10:40 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
Dusty_Piniella
First of all I do not say I believe in communism. But if you would do some research and hear what your daughter said (for people) you would find that what was meant by that is under the original writing of communism that was wrote by Marx it did not allow what goes on today with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Now that is not to say that through out history there were dictators that took it and twisted it in a way that made it much worst. But it was first recognized as socialism(which is also a dirty word for some)and our democratic society is capitalism (which works out well for the rich and is not so favorable for the the people)I would talk to the teacher and see how she really put it. I believe our kids should be educated about different governments not just be limited to ours. IT'S CALLED AN OPEN MIND
July 18, 2008
10:45 a.m.
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LearnToSwim writes:
There is no difference between the two parties. The people who purport to represent us DO NOT work for us - they're puppets of transnational corporations. To those of you deluded enough to think Obama represents "change", please take a closer look at his policy advisors - they're largely a gaggle of Clinton-era Neoliberal criminals. He voted in favor of reauthorizing the unconstitutional and liberty-evicerating PATRIOT Act. Most recently betrayal, he voted in favor of granting the telecoms who illegally spied on American citizens retroactive immunity from prosecution. C'mon - he's not even President yet and he's already selling out Americans in favor of placating his corporate masters.
July 18, 2008
10:48 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
dbarker2 writes:
"Do you Obama supporters realize how ridiculous you sound when defending Obama"
Do you here yourself? Speaking of "ridiculous" you should hear yourselves when you defend this clown in the big house now.
July 18, 2008
10:50 a.m.
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cottoneyed writes:
Lets be clear, it is the left that is "fascist", they meet perfectly the definition. Their true aim has consistently been, the defeat of Capitalism and the death of the West. Behind it all lies, a virulent hatred of our patriarchal society and the worship of a creator that is greater than the creature. They pride themselves as being "enlightened", Voltaire, Rousseau, and Locke are their inspiration. All these "enlightened" men hated the notion of a creator greater than the creature. For the left to ever prevail, they must eliminate this notion. In the end they will FAIL, but not before they create much pain and anarchy and a manifestation of this will be here, in Denver, in just one month. Teargas cannisters will be a dime a dozen, breathe deep, anarchists.
July 18, 2008
10:52 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
artstarzz writes: "vote Obama in 08"
Fine. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.
All of this flailing around at both conventions will be good for a laugh, but you pretty much wind up with the life you CHOOSE for yourself.
No politician is going to change that.
July 18, 2008
10:53 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Dilligaf
I have read the communist manifesto. I know all about it. The only way that this ideology can ever "work correctly" is if the government has unlimited resources/funds with which to provide the people for their needs. Since they wish to uber-tax the people this wouldn't seem to pose a problem, but since the communist manifesto also abolishes private property or any private ownership what is the incentive that the over taxed worker continues to work, since he has nothing to show for his labor? What is provided is provided to him no matter how much or how little he works. He could just stop working altogether along with everyone else and then the government has nothing with which to provide. Now, the government could force them to work but then that would make them slaves.
Try again, maybe you should make yourself familiar with Marx before you accuse someone else of not knowing.
July 18, 2008
10:55 a.m.
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dbarker2 writes:
dilligaf -
Yes, I do "here" myself. I don't recall defending George Bush in my comment, maybe you were just "hoping" that I would have so that you could have a legitimate argument. My argument was simply that Obama seems to have a whole lot of supporters who really have no clue who and what they are supporting. Whether George Bush is a "clown", as you have put it, or not, is a completely different subject.
July 18, 2008
10:57 a.m.
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Jerryintampa writes:
I can't understand why the Communist leaning groups would want to spoil Hussein's corination in Denver. Hell he is a Socialist and a Socialist State only needs two more thing to be promoted to Communist State. Those two things are prohibiting decent which is already underway with the left, e.g. The Freedom of Access reinstatement. The second thing is disarming the people. The Dems are already seathing about the recent Supreme Court DC ruling on the 2nd Amendment and they will install the liberals to the Supreme Court sufficient to reverse that. Keep it up Hussein you may get the chance to make Lenin proud and destroy this Nation. You should rot in Hell!
July 18, 2008
11:02 a.m.
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303Centennial writes:
Froward69 - Thank you for your feedback from my previous comments. I will say, you did get me to think a little with my last two paragraphs. I would like to consider myself open-minded enough to consider all views. I am certainly not hardwired one way or the other and with good facts backed up by independent evidence, I can be sways. Thanks for helping to keep my mind open.
July 18, 2008
11:03 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
303 centennial, what "good facts" has froward69 presented about anything?
July 18, 2008
11:07 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
Froward69 writes: "Just like republicans do with no bid contracts,(haliburton, blackwater, KBR...) and Wars for profit.(Vietnam, Iraq)"
Who got us into Vietnam again?
July 18, 2008
11:07 a.m.
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incite_a_riot writes:
There's nothing peaceful about revolution, and our revolution is NOW.
BURN, BABY, BURN!
*chaos in the streets*
July 18, 2008
11:20 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
incite_a_riot writes: *chaos in the streets*
I don't know about chaos, but I'm sure we'll have plenty of dropouts in the streets.
We have concealed carry laws in this state. I would highly suggest you keep the chaos to a minimum.
July 18, 2008
11:21 a.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Frontranger.....really do any of the protesting groups have ANY republican affiliations? Please list sources to back up your statement.
July 18, 2008
11:21 a.m.
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jay writes:
"All of this flailing around at both conventions will be good for a laugh, but you pretty much wind up with the life you CHOOSE for yourself.
No politician is going to change that."\
that's a good point, cowboy.
you have to wonder, however, if some politicians' policies just produce better results than others.
the numbers tell us that the clinton policies were better than the bush's for nearly all americans. the data shows that republican presidents have increased our debt nearly exclusively over the past several decades.
if it's going to be the kind of life i choose anyway...why not vote for, rather than against, my own best interests where policy is concerned?
i find that when people vote against their and their family's best interests it is due to some kind of additional factor....say personal beliefs about a wedge issue of some kind.
at that point we're looking at a certain group of folks actively using religion to shape a country in such a way as to be detrimental to most of the population.
sounds a lot like iran.
July 18, 2008
11:22 a.m.
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Konyok writes:
Froward,
According to Merriam Webster:
Fascism
1) a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2) a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.
Wikipedia gives:
Fascism is a term used to describe authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.[
Fascists promote a type of national unity that is usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, national, racial, and/or religious attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, economic planning (including corporatism and autarky), populism, collectivism, autocracy and anti-liberalism (i.e., opposition to political and economic liberalism).
There are lots of perfectly good words that you could use more precisely. Oligarchy, plutarchy and mercantilism spring immediately to mind.
"Fascism" has a very real meaning and your promiscuous use of the word only demeans fascism's historical victims.
You do not convince me that my dog is a greyhound by showing me a picture of a cat.
July 18, 2008
11:25 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Dusty -
I don't disagree with much of what you say, though I'd emphasize that fascism is about ideology, not about the actions which result from that ideology.
No reasonable person would suggest that America has no right to defend itself, or question the fact of America's rise to superpower status. However, I do think there's a tendency among some on the far right to denounce all criticism of the government as unpatriotic. (I'm thinking here of those who called for the editors of the NY Times to be tried for treason after that paper revealed the existence of the wireless wiretapping program.)
I think you'll agree that the United States has a strong tradition of a free press and of respect for the First Amendment, and I hope you'd agree that those values are important ones. I'd suggest that those who would have us turn against that tradition in favor of nationalism, asserting that this government of men can do no wrong, are fairly said to have fascist tendencies. Remember, too, that it is stereotypically the "leftist" press that gets criticised for attempting to defend liberty at the expense of security, and the rightist press that clamors for security at the expense of liberty.
With respect to immigration, I agree that legal methods are vastly preferable to illegal methods, and I agree that secure borders are greatly to be desired. However, there are those who fan the flames of rhetoric in order to create an illogical fear of "illegals" and "Muslims" and "gays" in order to sieze and hold power. I'd suggest that this technique, too, is characteristic of fascism.
I also recognize that fascist governments of the past have sometimes nationalized industries. However, they did so, as you suggest, because they wanted to be the "providers" -- not because they believed, as do socialists, that equal access to property was a worthy goal. Instead, the fascists were strongly business-focused, and believed that nationalizing struggling industries was necessary in order to defeat the Great Depression and create a strong business climate.
You're right, too, that there are communists and socialists and all kinds of other fringe groups among us. I'd merely suggest that there are fascists, too, and that they are more likely to vote on the hard right than on the hard left.
CLM
July 18, 2008
11:27 a.m.
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CLM writes:
Fishfly -
Read carefully. At no time have I suggested that we're living under fascism, or even that the right as a whole is likely to embrace the ideology of its most extreme members.
As you recognize, the Constitution embraces a strong Congress as a check on the power of the executive. That's what makes the far right's current embrace of executive power so frightening. Remember, it was Nixon who first asserted that nothing the President does can ever be illegal, and Nixon was hardly a left-winger or a strong supporter of Congress. I'm merely arguing that, just as the far left is fairly said to lean toward socialism, those on the far right can fairly be said to lean toward fascism.
CLM
(I probably won't be back in this thread today, as enjoyable as it is, because I have a real job to do, but I'll try to read it again at the end of the day -- so please feel free to show me where I'm wrong!)
July 18, 2008
11:33 a.m.
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02Z06 writes:
Man is this going to be fun watching all these crazies in one place at the same time.
I'm hoping to see on utube the peppering of these ding-bats by Denver's finest.
As said above, "The Koo-Koo birds have come home to roost!"
July 18, 2008
11:42 a.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Frontranger, you have no idea what you are talking about! There are NO REPUBLICAN PROTESTORS! ALL of the groups are fringe left, or have causes such as anti-war, anti-abortion, anti-immigration. The fringe groups that have vowed to cause trouble (R68) think the dems no longer represent them. The anarchists are just morons. Black Block, R68, and Anarchists have vowed to cause trouble, and most likely will. That punk poster incite-a-riot will probably with them getting their stupid heads clubbed...justifiably! Gas em all Denver PD, except the peaceful ones, who won't be heard anyway due to the moron trouble makers....GLENN!
July 18, 2008
11:50 a.m.
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this_comment_cannot_be_removed writes:
*yawn*
This is boring.
I want to know more about Brangelina's twins...
July 18, 2008
11:50 a.m.
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BeTheChange1 writes:
If anyone would like to have some Fun during the DNC and RNC you can join the Sustainable Living Roadshow as we set up an off-grid Eco festival to demonstrate how the Denver and Minneapolis communities are becoming sustainable. We are a group of educators, environmentalist and entertainers that will embark on a cross country adventure we are calling the BE THE CHANGE tour, with conscious carnival games (Toss out Fossil Fuels), Solar stages to highlight local music, Keynote speakers, workshops, healing center, and a green market place. We will be set up a cross from the convention center in Hirshorn park. If you know any speakers, bands, healers, magicians, or environmentally conscious companies or just want to volunteer please email us at slrvolunteer@gmail.com
You can also check out our website at. Sustainablelivingroadshow.org
Hope to see you all there.
It is up to us to "Be the change we wish to see in the World". Gandhi
July 18, 2008
11:55 a.m.
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dilligaf writes:
Dusty_Piniella
Now wait a minute my intentions weren't to get in a debate promoting communism. My intention was to defend our teachers to teach kids about other countries and their governments. I believe to hide them and only teach them our way is called brainwashing. What this teacher said about it being better for the what I call in this country the peasants is right for some. And that is not saying I would want communism. But both governments have their goods and bads. Me I think ours outweigh theirs.
July 18, 2008
11:57 a.m.
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jilsy99 writes:
Pelosi needs to be removed from office. Tried for treason against her country. For lthe lie that drilling won't lower gas prices. For putting in jeopardy the Life, Liberty and the persuit of the AMERICAN PEOPLE.
700 Billion going to countries who hate us and who kill their own people and want to kill you and me. Thousands of AMERICAN JOB's lost to middle eastern countries for what???????????????????????????
This is a crime against the American people and it has been happening for 30 years. Youve been sold out!!!!! Any government offical who tells you drilling won't bring down price should be removed from office and tried for crimes against the AMERICAN PEOPLE.
We can go to the moon but can't refine oil in 3 years- lay off the crack were AMERICANS.
July 18, 2008
12:02 p.m.
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pmm writes:
Dusty_Piniella Writes:
<i>now it's your turn to explain and tie fascism together with conservatives.</i>
At the risk of turning this into a rational discussion on extreme nationalism, here goes nothing:
I don’t lump traditional Conservatives in with fascists (nice try though). I’m talking about the hateful far right who do a good job of defining themselves as Ur-fascist: Giving in to their basest emotions and above all, dehumanizing Liberals and Democrats and buying into cartoonish stereotypes propagated by Rush and his ilk. Who suggest that Democrats have worthless identities, beliefs. Deserving of no respect and even violence and punishment/violence. Violence is big with Fascists.
There are a14 defining characteristics of fascism identified by various political scientists and you can read up on it here: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14_...
The failed Bush Presidency and the aforementioned right-wing manipulators have given them fertile ground. A President who continually thumbs his nose at the Constitution. Putting loyalty and their definition of patriotism above all else due to "extraordinary circumstances" . The #1 defining characteristic of Fascism.
The characteristic that to me is a glaring black (-shirted) marker is #3 from Laurence Britt's "14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism" and also identified by Umberto Ecco and "Dino Louis":
<b>3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause: The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions.</b>
The dittoheads who get to these articles from the drudge links and descend en masse to spew identical hatred and a narrow, flawed definition of America or being American, ignoring the freedom and individual rights his nation guarantees its founding principles and the law. The same dehumanizing and misleading arguments are repeated. Marxism is mentioned so much you would think this was the 1930s. and that all liberals hate America and want to hand the country over to terrorists, blah…blah…blah.
To sum up: The clearest sign here of creeping and actual fascism
is the hatred and dehumanization and threat of violence. All in “abundant” display of what is supposed to be a show of numbers designed to not only intimidate, but to sow even greater hatred and prejudice. The extreme right is works itself into a lather. It’s dangerous. Someone is going to get hurt. And they need to know that there are those out here who think for themselves and we will not, under any circumstance, give in to intimidation and bullying. Those are the tools of ….fascists.
July 18, 2008
12:05 p.m.
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temurlan writes:
Frontranger, right-wing people will be nowhere near this soon to be fiasco.
July 18, 2008
12:06 p.m.
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jilsy99 writes:
Pelosi needs to be removed from office. Tried for treason against her country. For lthe lie that drilling won't lower gas prices. For putting in jeopardy the Life, Liberty and the persuit of the AMERICAN PEOPLE.
700 Billion going to countries who hate us and who kill their own people and want to kill you and me. Thousands of AMERICAN JOB's lost to middle eastern countries for what???????????????????????????
This is a crime against the American people and it has been happening for 30 years. Youve been sold out!!!!! Any government offical who tells you drilling won't bring down price should be removed from office and tried for crimes against the AMERICAN PEOPLE.
We can go to the moon but can't refine oil in 3 years- lay off the crack were AMERICANS.
Comment by Jim - Chicago — July 18, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
July 18, 2008
12:09 p.m.
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daquake writes:
Froward69, you're an idiot. Hitler was a socialist, not a "right winger" - socialism is a goal of the Sec Prog leaders and if you'd open you eyes and see for yourself, you'd notice.
Moron.
> Funny how the fascists denounce Communism when that's exactly where the Conservative republican ideology leads... The only reason they haven't succeeded is the US Constitution. however they have tried to undermine it in this very administration.
July 18, 2008
12:16 p.m.
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jilsy99 writes:
Keep calling each other names. This is the problem the 2 party system.
Drill here Drill NOW while your coming up with your alternative energy source. Democrats are supporting terrorism and murder by buying Middle Eastern OIL. 700 Billion dollars worth while all the while we could be supporting AMERICAN JOBS.
Democrats and environmentalist have killed thousands by their refusal to become energy independant 30 years ago.
Keeping funding weapons AMERICA and tell me how much you hate war.
July 18, 2008
12:16 p.m.
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this_newspaper_is_for_morons writes:
WOW.
Half of you people sound like you're completely illiterate, and the other half of you cite Wikipedia and other novelty websites as fact.
*ahem*
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded."
July 18, 2008
12:18 p.m.
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FlyfishDude52 writes:
CLM,
I don't believe I suggested that you were stating that these are the conditions under which we live. I was questioning the definition you propounded for fascism. I couldn't connect the dots even after confirming with my funk & wagnals that I knew the definition. I still can't find your definition.
July 18, 2008
12:18 p.m.
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dilligaf writes:
WOW j99 now that has to go to the top of the list of one sided rants. While your at it how about Reagan selling weapons to Iran, Osama Bin laden, & Saddam? And this is documented. Now that ended up killing a lot of innocent people. Years ago they shot you for selling weapons to the enemy. (Indians)Also try doing some research before making a fool of yourself and you will discover that there where a lot of Republicans in the first 6 yrs. of Bushes admin. that rejected the drilling. Just like everything else the cons blame the Dems for , why didn't this all get fixed when the cons had control in them 6 yrs? I seem to never get an answer on that one.
July 18, 2008
12:18 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
this newspaper...you are here, so I guess you proved your own point...anything to add, or just moronic statements?
July 18, 2008
12:19 p.m.
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pmm writes:
jilsy99 writes:
<i>We can go to the moon but can't refine oil in 3 years- lay off the crack were AMERICANS.</i>
Oil IS America's crack, friend. And it's killing the economy and transferring our wealth to people who might not have the nation's best interests in mind. I include the Big American Oil Co.s in with that grup, because they don't want to drill. It's against their own best interest. Look at the stock of the big six or seven oil Co.s in the past few days that the price has gone down. It's a dysfunctional industry intoxicated by the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the country (and world). They profit off off of the economic troubles caused by speculation and over-priced oil.
Also you have it a bit backwards: We can go to the moon, but instead of finding a better, alternative power source and develop solar and wind as well as new technologies you want to rip up everything in sight in three years? The big oil companies have plenty of land to drill, but they refuse to invest in new technology to get it out of the ground or in capital expenditures/reinvestment in themselves. They're mostly investment companies now. It's the smaller energy co.'s that are actually making an effort to get more oil out of the ground and reinvest in themselves and NO I won't provide links to all these things because Google is your friend. Use it....
Anyhow keep spewing that hate towards anyone not given the thumbs up by the fat man.
July 18, 2008
12:19 p.m.
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leatherneck writes:
artstarzz: YOU WILL LOVE THIS WEBSITE
www.sendemback.org
VIVA LA MIGRA
July 18, 2008
12:23 p.m.
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jilsy99 writes:
Gas wasn't 4.50 cents for one. For two the dems control the ship right now and gas is climbing. Your right they are all at fault. Pelosi, Reide and Kerry all have energy stock so they are no better than Bush.
We are supporting governments who kill people as a way of life. There all at fault but Pelosi has blocked progress.
Im an independant but have enough sense to know when I have been sold out.
July 18, 2008
12:26 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
I vote we deport ARTSTARZZ! Who's social security number are you using to work art?
July 18, 2008
12:26 p.m.
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Konyok writes:
pmm,
I disagree with Britt's characteristics of fascism.
Most importantly, he omits the cult of the leader.
He also disregards the subordination of state institutions by the party apparatus.
Perhaps the single most distinguishing feature of Fascism past and present is the mass party organization of uniformed paramilitary contingents. Mass rallies and political violence are intrinsic.
For a modern example look at Nashi, Putin's youth organization in Russia today.
Your dittohead example is, well, facile and silly.
July 18, 2008
12:30 p.m.
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leatherneck writes:
sheepherder writes:
I vote we deport ARTSTARZZ! Who's social security number are you using to work art?
I DON'T THINK WE CAN?
I BET WHEN SCHOOL STARTS UP AGAIN YOU WONT SEE HER SPEW BLOGS ANYMORE
July 18, 2008
12:32 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Ah yes, Art going for the free education on the back of American tax dollars...sorry leather, I forgot.
Viva deportation!
July 18, 2008
12:36 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
I hope ICE is at the "Immigration march" during the DNC, it would be an easy way to round em up! Our friend Art would probably get caught up in the middle of it all...
Art...I joke! Now really, who's social security number are you using to work?
July 18, 2008
12:47 p.m.
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maggiedev writes:
dusty_piniella
i am not too impressed with our school at all. i am not impressed with what is taught in american history. we are supposed to learn from the mistakes of our past generations. if we don't know anything about them, we cannot learn. we have discussed home schooling the 15 year old. yes, in all forms of government. he can make up his own mind, but he will be able to make a much more informed decision if he learns more of history and not just a paragraph in a history book. i want him to read the communist manifesto. i want him to read the history of monarchy. i want him to read about the history of a democracy. the rise and fall of the roman empire. about world war I and II. viet nam, korea, etc. only with knowledge can he form his own opinions. that is why i gave him the examples of giving half of his own things. let him do his own thinking. with choices to learn from, i think he can make his own well informed decisions. knowledge is the greatest gift we can give our children. the schools don't seem to be doing a very good job. these protesters would get their point across better if they went out and served their nation and tried to change things rather than disrupt whatever convention. all that creates is 'NEWS'.
July 18, 2008
12:48 p.m.
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Formercolorado writes:
What is the big objecton??? The protestors will be singing to the
choir. Obama is ready to give evrybody everything. The "homeless' will all be at the movies. Obama will have his own home movies of "How I spent my summer vacation". It should all be a mini-Woodstock! Some people are never satisfied: Obama is your dreams come true, Lefties!! BIG BROTHER is alive and well.
July 18, 2008
12:49 p.m.
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sheepherder writes:
Good point Maggie. If they think anyone who does the voting is listening to them, they are wrong. They are just a nuisance that has to be put up with.
July 18, 2008
12:53 p.m.
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pmm writes:
daquake writes:
<i>Froward69, you're an idiot. Hitler was a socialist, not a "right winger" - socialism is a goal of the Sec Prog leaders and if you'd open you eyes and see for yourself, you'd notice.
Moron.</i>
Ouch. SLow down there kiddo. Your all mixed up.
daquake can you get your brain around the difference between an economic SYSTEM/Ideology and a POLITICAL IDEOLOGY? Hitler was a socialist AND a Right-wing Fascist.
He was extra special like that. Socialism nationalizes and give the government a total monopoly over the chief heavy industries of a country.
The opposite of socialism is Capitalism wherein industry is controlled by those with...you guessed it: Capital (or Money, Mullah, dough, Benjamins, Dead presidents etc.)
Strangely (although not really if you understand the difference between ideology and Political belief) many Capitalism share a right-wing ideology as both Fascism and Capitalism reward those of a certain Religion or class or Ethnicity or social standing, so those types got along pretty well with the Nazi's and did plenty of business with them.
A Fascist is an extreme NATIONALIST. One who puts unquestioning patriotism in the nation and its (dear) leader (or leaders) and the active and aggressive furthering of the ruling ethnic majority above all else. Anyone who disagrees, or is part of an opposing ideology (Democratic, Republicanism, for example, not so much Capitalism)is SOL, as are those of a differing ethnicity, creed, sexual orientation or just eccentric nature and are subject (since they're less than human, and actively dehumanized) to having rights and freedoms stripped away and completely facing: Incarceration w/o a trial and if there is a trail usually with rigged or poor representation (lawyer). The denial of Habeaus Corpus, appeal or jury by a group of peers. The Judge is usually a member of the ruling party government and tasked with overseeing and carrying out the instructions and decrees of the supreme leader or leaders even if that means, torture or death.
So to sum up:
Right wing Fascism is a political IDEOLOGY.
Socialism is an economic ideology. They are not mutually exclusive.
Tomorrow we'll discuss the unholy relationship between Socialism, fascism and totalitarianism embodied by Soviet Communism (it is directly related to the Soviets).
BTW a Marxist believes in the writings of Karl Marx. An economic philosopher. And where it is true that a Communist is a failed Marxist, a Marxist is not necessarily always a Communist. Marx was German by the way.
But don't think about that too hard or your brain might explode.
I wish some of you right wing kids would step away from the GTA IV and open up a school book once in a while.
July 18, 2008
1:02 p.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
pmm -
Anyone over 12-years old who even knows what "GTA IV" is in the first place should probably take a hard look in the mirror.
July 18, 2008
1:09 p.m.
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pmm writes:
Formercolorado writes: BIG BROTHER is alive and well.
He sure is and he's currently living in the White House. Lucky you!!
July 18, 2008
1:14 p.m.
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AvalancheSuck writes:
Wow, all the nuthead fruitcakes are going to be in Denver doing "activist" things. It's funny how they put so much effort into doing what they claim to be against - deny other pople their rights.
You'll pardon me for not attending, but you see, I have this thing called a JOB that I must attend to instead.
July 18, 2008
1:22 p.m.
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pmm writes:
steel writes:
artstarzz... "squaer" Kind of puts pmm's argument about left-wingers and school books in a different light.
________
Artstarzz is fluent and can read and write at least two languages. How about you Steel, how many languages do you speak? Be honest now.
(I'm fluent in three.)
Cowboy63 writes:
pmm -
Anyone over 12-years old who even knows what "GTA IV" is in the first place should probably take a hard look in the mirror.
-----
What rock do you live under? Do you know how silly that retort is?
Everytime I think I've underestimated the intelligence of dittoheads, I realize I'm not underestimating them enough. But at least they know how to sprinkle their comments with "Marxist" at every opportunity, even if they don't understand what it is, or the difference between an economic ideology/system like Socialism and a political ideology like fascism.
July 18, 2008
1:26 p.m.
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pmm writes:
SASQUATCH You can cut and paste the most thin and transparently partisan RNC talking points!! Bravo! Really...I'm impressed. You didn't use the word MARXIST even once. Even the piece you cut and pasted didn't used that misnomer. Nice.
July 18, 2008
1:30 p.m.
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pmm writes:
YIOTA writes:
How do these people think they just continue to tax the people more and more for every single initiative. I have a couple of buddies that claim 12 dependents and then file a $0 dollar tax form. Thats sounding better and better all the time...
------------------------------------
You should report them to the IRS. That's illegal, not to mention the country is at war fighting the most epic conflagration of good vs evil in the history of mankind (so what if it's in the wrong country), and you and your buddies would deny supporting that epic conflagration with your tax dollars? You call yourself a patriot?
George W. Bush is very very VERY disappointed in you...
July 18, 2008
1:34 p.m.
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Konyok writes:
pmm,
I give you credit for attempting to think systematically, but snarkiness doesn't help. You seem to be starting from an impressionistic conclusion and then trying to explain it with rational tools. That approach rarely works.
Take it from a recovering marxist that capitalism is not the opposite of socialism, it is a necessary precursor. The opposite is feudalism. Unfortunately, most attempts to create marxian socialism have resulted in something very closely resembling feudalism.
Personally, I have come to the conclusion that neo liberal capitalism is the most efficient and egalitarian economic model.
I agree with you that a lot of the rightwing rhetoric is nasty and jingoistic. It is aesthetically disturbing. But, I find the authoritarian and totalitarian implications of progressive rhetoric to be much more threatening.
Here is a thought experiment for you:
Consider the following statement.
"______ should be the organizing principle of mankind."
Is the very concept of an organizing principle for mankind or for a society not the very heart and soul of totalitarianism?
Can you reconstruct the quote?
July 18, 2008
1:36 p.m.
Suggest removal
AvalancheSuck writes:
artstarzz writes:
"Then why have a government at all ? To answer my own question . To keep the rich from becoming Kings.”
You left a couple reasons off your list:
1. To keep the lazy or less capable from taking from the rich.
2. To ensure our rights are not threatened by citizen-sheep who would make their favored Governmental Representatives into Kings. (ie - you, Obama).
Final thought: you may have solid reasons for not liking the Republicans (I know I do), but what GOOD reasons do you have for liking the Democrats? Seriously, explain a couple. Perhaps you could start by explaining the current US House and Senate. What has been their contribution for the better since Nancy and Harry took control?
July 18, 2008
1:39 p.m.
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dilligaf writes:
SASQUATCH
Prior to 2000 can you list any of Bushes achievements. You know a lot of right wing posters that blog on the RMN all though I don't agree with them actually posts with some valid and educated points. You do nothing but ramble on and make a fool of yourself. Here is a suggestion for you. Get someone with halve a brain to proof read your comments. Then take their word for it when they tell you not to post it you will embarrass yourself.
July 18, 2008
1:42 p.m.
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Ironwolf writes:
I remember growing up and when a kid would ask "Who farted" it usually turned out that they were the one that did.
Same with with Fascists, they accuse the Republicans, Conservatives or anyone that doesn't agree with them to being Fascist and they are acctually the fascist.
If you want to know what a Fascist is read Jonah Goldberg's book Liberal Fascism. I am only half way through it and my eyes have been opened.
By the way, "direct action" was a big term for Italian Fascists as well as Nazi's. Just a thought.
July 18, 2008
1:47 p.m.
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Dusty_Piniella writes:
Konyok.....How Bout dusty_piniella should be the organizing principle of mankind! .....HAHAHAHAHA....lol
but seriously folks
extreme ideologies don't work and neither does anarchy....
the bottom line is....what kind of judge do you want nominated to the Supreme Court. A constructionist or a Liberal?
The difference is........
Constructionist------reads the US Constitution for what it SAYS, (black and white)
Liberal-------------reads the US Constitution for what it COULD say (all grey)
July 18, 2008
1:49 p.m.
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pmm writes:
Ralphy writes:
I mean, you can't convincingly turn our arguments against us (a losing proposition, considering we are correct, as well as Right)
---------
Now you're neither right or simply RIGHT. You're wrong and you're fascist.
Your arguments are laughable. It's like trying to argue with someone who believes in aliens from outer space, because they've read about it in a comic book.
It's too ridiculous to even take some of the asinine dittohead arguments seriously. It insults both reason and logic and the intelligence of those that believe this RNC /Rush.
----------------------------
Ralphy: The democrat party- the party of parasites, skanks, murderers, liars thieves and traitors, is an abomination to the concept or freedom. You vermin may prefer to keep your fecal bombs away from the GOP convention.
Wrong on all counts. But keep going...you're illustrating my point regarding the intimidation and dehumanization of liberals and Democrats is chief characteristics fascists. You're words are a textbook example of it. Anything else you want to blame liberals for? You should get it all out. How about the fact that you're a lost pathetic angry and hateful and bitter human being that needs to find someone to blame for his own shortcomings and self-loathing. I think that would work well for you.
July 18, 2008
1:55 p.m.
Suggest removal
pmm writes:
YIOTA Writes:
The best part is both of these clowns sound like the rest of you hate bushers.
---------------------------
Only problem being there Einstein, that I work hard to be a productive member of society producing wealth and I pay all my taxes w/o cheating the government.
A small distinction I know, considering the broad brush methods the extreme right employs to paint liberals and Democrats, but for what it's worth, I thought I throw it out there.
July 18, 2008
1:58 p.m.
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Konyok writes:
"Dusty Piniella?"
That isn't like an exotic veneral disease or sumthin, is it?
Seriously, I'm right there with you.
Moderation is the tried and true American way. We are profoundly imperfect, but ours has been the only truly successful revolution in the world to date. Ours is the oldest constitution and we have the longest continuous history without military coups or martial law. The only exception is the great civil war to end slavery. Not too shabby.
Our friends on the right and the left ache so badly to be part of some great historical moment. They just can't accept that we have always muddled through and we always will, unless we buy into somebody's grand scheme for moral perfection.
It's the difference between having the freedom to be human and funky or a perfect slave.
As the unknown Afghan said when Kabul was liberated: "Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy!"
July 18, 2008
2:01 p.m.
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Konyok writes:
Oh, jeez.
Turns out that was an Iraqi upon the liberation of Najaf, April 2, 2003.
Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy!
July 18, 2008
2:27 p.m.
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fastnloose writes:
I have several Dem-friends and most have not given one dime to help the poor.Most of them tend to be selfish slobs.When pinned down, they really want Obama to tax the rich like crazy,so that money can feed the poor.Then they won't feel guilty.Boy I'm glad I have right wing friends to help balance views out!
July 18, 2008
2:33 p.m.
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jaymoveonorg writes:
Some people need to read some history. Fascists and Communists are very similar. They create huge government programs that people are forced into, which create numerous government jobs. The rest of the jobs and services come from huge monopoly businesses that are owned and controlled by the government.
Then they let it be known that if you want a job or to be taken care of you need to join the party in power. In the case of Germany it was the Nazis. So you are forced to join a party and vote for that party and if you didn't then you did not get a job, was not taken care of or probably worse they just beat you up.
So who supports big government and more government jobs?
Froward69, after you slammed Tony Snow, who just died, I really feel bad for you. You have so much hate in your life and I will pray for you that you can find peace. Hatred can eat a person up. :)
July 18, 2008
2:35 p.m.
Suggest removal
dilligaf writes:
fastnloose
I wouldn't consider you a friend if you called me a slob just because I don't agree with you. I also have right wing friends and we know how each other views are. We have FRIENDLY debates but being friends we still have enough respect for each other we don't call each other names. But then again we have class.
July 18, 2008
2:51 p.m.
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dilligaf writes:
jaymoveonorg
You need to practice what you preach. You also need to not only read some history you need to read all of it. It is very easy to pick out the countries with the mental dictators like Hitler to use as an example of communists & fascists. Why don't you study the communism that was written by Marx? Again I'm not promoting that type of government but just saying because it is not the government we chose it is not the we will pull your finger nails out if you don't do what we want government like we have been brainwashed into believing.
July 18, 2008
2:54 p.m.
Suggest removal
pmm writes:
Konyok writes:
Consider the following statement.
"______ should be the organizing principle of mankind."
Is the very concept of an organizing principle for mankind or for a society not the very heart and soul of totalitarianism?
Can you reconstruct the quote?
_______________
/snark
This opens up a whole historical perspective into the formative elements that drove the instinct for civilization or groupism. I think the word your looking for in that sentence is some seminal variation on fascism, probably paganism or tribalism or ...race perhaps
Fascism in the modern sense has basically become a euphemism for Hitlerism, in spite of its origins in the Mussolini's fascisti movement which Hitler sharpened to a vicious ideology predicated on warped spiritualism and fantasy and an aggressive utopianism, as opposed to perhaps the more valid paganism and spiritualism that originally lay at the heart of that seminal variation of it.
Anyhow, I would agree that Capitalism is the precursor to socialism, and to be fair, they're not mutually exclusive just because in modern jargon, they're incorrectly judged diametrically opposed. But that is the post WW2 usage of it. There's no reason the two can't function in a mutual sense it's just a matter of degrees. In this country there's almost (in spite of the remnant New Deal programs like SS being a good example of positive socialism)zero tolerance for that in spite of the high standards of living in the European and Scandinavian countries that have adopted it.
I would say that Capitalism is not the opposite of feudalism as you say, but it's necessary precursor...in some ways extreme the hyper-capitalism we've seen since the break up of the Soviet Union is a hairsbreadth away from being feudalistic. Hell...look at China. Talk about a complex economic system, but a great example of what should be warning to this country that capitalism and totalitarianism are not do not inoculate one from the other. Capitalism does not guarantee human rights. People, including me, get their economic and political and I would even say philosophical distinctions mixed up.
One last word on hyper-capitalism, we're seeing right now, with the oil crisis due to the weakening dollar and the sup prime crisis, massive deficit, the imperialistic Iraq venture and the extreme debt being maintained by China's ownership of trillions of dollars, the envelope of what hyper-capitalism and the "free market as a religion" almost can do. So...
If you mean by neo liberal capitalism a system dedicated and founded foremost on human rights, as well as necessary controls and regulations that rein in the overheated mess presently in progress as well as providing a real free market accessible to all, I agree with you.
Thanks for the well thought out comment. A breath of fresh air.
July 18, 2008
2:56 p.m.
Suggest removal
p3orion writes:
Did you notice the sidebar titled "Who's Protesting the DNC"? Where's the group protesting the fact that the Democrats have nominated a nobody with a half-page resume for leader of the free world?
Let me get this straight: these yahoos are protesting that the Democrat Party isn't liberal ENOUGH? Mommy and Daddy need to cut their allowances and send them into the real world.
July 18, 2008
2:57 p.m.
Suggest removal
JMS writes:
"artstarzz..."The democrats will take care of the poor""
WTF? How will the democrats take care of the poor? Will Obama's vision of domestic policy dictate forced redistribution of wealth far greater than our present tax system? If so, this is a script right from Karl Marx. Also, I've noted you close the majority of your posts with "Viva La Raza". Is this what you're referring to?
http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html
If so, Obama is the least of our worries.
:-(
July 18, 2008
3:04 p.m.
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jaymoveonorg writes:
dilligaf,
Now what is your problem? I am a little lost about your comment "You need to practice what you preach". Where have I shown any ill will to anyone. I disagree with people but I have never said I hope you die or I hope you go to hell or anything hateful. Please show me when I have been hateful and I will quickly apologize?
I talked about communism and as you know communism and marxists are different. The idea of marxists has some merit but if you read some history books bad people like Stalin and Mao tend to take over and take advantage of the idea. They get away with it, because people want a job and they monopolize all the jobs and so you are forced to do what they want to get a job. I like a good balance of business and the government. I think the government is big enough and I rather not see it grow even more. What is wrong with that?
July 18, 2008
3:05 p.m.
Suggest removal
pmm writes:
YIOTA: I know, considering the broad brush methods the extreme left employs to paint conservatives and Rebuplicans, but for what it's worth, I thought I throw it out there.
That's all you buddy, I never made that suggestion. You did both regarding liberals and Democrats as well as the fact that you said you were going to cheat on your taxes.
--------------------
YIOTA: Hmm, sounds like we may need to define "productive member of society" before we can proceed.
Nah, we're done buddy. I'm not the one who gets a hard on telling people what a "productive member of society" is. I say live and let live: A sadly lost and much venerated American tradition. A conservative in the best proper sense of the word, approach to life and one's neighbors and countrymen. Now too many people feel a need to tell other people what they need to do, or be, or think, or believe, or feel, in order to be afforded some decency and respect.
July 18, 2008
3:19 p.m.
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dilligaf writes:
jaymoveonorg
I also am confused. Reading back through my reply I didn't read anywhere that I accused you of being hateful or wishing anybody die or go to hell. My response of practice what you preach was directed to you opening statement "Some people need to read some history". If I offended you I did not mean to. I was trying to make a point.
July 18, 2008
3:21 p.m.
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jaymoveonorg writes:
pmm,
Obviously you like history then why don't you know what a neo-conservative is? A neo-coservative is someone who believes democracies never go to war against each other. They are for spreading democracy to create a more stable and peaceful world. Sometimes this means to nation build and sometimes it means to economically force countries to re-think their political views. Kennedy, Roosevelt and Truman were all neo-conservatives. That is why they stood up to Nazis, imperalists in Japan and Communists. That is why they took on nation building in Europe, Japan, Korea, Vietnam and others.
Also, talk to any European that comes over here for educational purposes. They will tell you they love their country and want to go back there but to get a better education and more opportunities they needed to come over here. Almost, everyone is middle class but they have a caste system going on over there where it is impossible for the lower middle class to climb to the upper middle class or even the middle middle class. Once you are born in that class you are stuck. You live a comfortable life but you will never be able to better yourself. Now that is sad and why I do not admire European life.
July 18, 2008
3:26 p.m.
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jaymoveonorg writes:
dilligaf,
Thanks for clarifying. Even though I still disagree with you that I need to read more history. I am pretty confident in my understanding of what a Facists and a Communists is. To get what Al Gore wants done in 10 years scares me and it will take many tactics both political ideologies like to use. Have a good weekend.
July 18, 2008
3:37 p.m.
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pmm writes:
Konyok writes:
I disagree with Britt's characteristics of fascism.
-
Most importantly, he omits the cult of the leader.
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8. Religion and ruling elite tied together: .
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Konyok writes: He also disregards the subordination of state institutions by the party apparatus.
Take your pick:
#4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism:
or
6. A controlled mass media: Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite.
or
9. Power of corporations protected:
or
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated:
or
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts: Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated...
or
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption: Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves.
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Konyok writes: Perhaps the single most distinguishing feature of Fascism past and present is the mass party organization of uniformed paramilitary contingents. Mass rallies and political violence are intrinsic.
-->
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism: Catchy slogans, pride in the military...
or
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism:
Konyok writes:
Your dittohead example is, well, facile and silly.
Well we'll see won't we... I think you're dead wrong here. I would think any casual reading of most of the comments here would make you think otherwise. Demonization and dehumanization (Vermin, murders, skanks, thieves, scum, terrorist lovers, Marxist's, anti-american....)as well as intimidation and threatened and real has been systematic for a while now. I'll be surprised if there isn't some kind of physical attack on in the run up to November.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
Links to full entries:
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14_...
or
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index....
July 18, 2008
3:48 p.m.
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pmm writes:
jaymoveonorg writes:
pmm,
Obviously you like history then why don't you know what a neo-conservative is?
Huh? I'm not sure how you got that from anything I wrote. You might be barking up the wrong tree.
jaymoveonorg writes: Kennedy, Roosevelt and Truman were all neo-conservatives.
You're wrong. And off the charts. Look up PNAC. And the American Enterprise Institure. Neo-conservatives are clearly post Soviet era. And Roosevelt, Kennedy and Truman were all New Deal dems. Sacrilege to any neo-conservative.
jaymoveonorg writes: Almost, everyone is middle class but they have a caste system going on over there where it is impossible for the lower middle class to climb to the upper middle class or even the middle middle class.
There's some truth to this...but no reason it can't be improved upon.
July 18, 2008
3:55 p.m.
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revolution writes:
VOTE FOR RON PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!JOIN THE REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!
July 18, 2008
4:15 p.m.
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jay writes:
Ignorant Post Award for Happy Friday:
"A neo-coservative is someone who believes democracies never go to war against each other."
---jay jr
July 18, 2008
7:42 p.m.
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AC7880 writes:
How lovely, now the extreme wacko socialist left protests against itself and riots in the streets against itself. American Justice at it's finest.
July 18, 2008
9:02 p.m.
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McCainorHillary writes:
I LOVE it. I just hope protesters don't get the idea of blocking the Chosen One's route to the stadium to make his speech. That would be a bad thing.
BTW, did everyone catch Michelle O's 'black power' hand gesture this week? "Why, she's the new Jackie Kennedy." Maybe if Jackie had been brainwashed by the Panthers.
July 18, 2008
10:36 p.m.
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Marcos writes:
For the history impaired leftists who are posting. The Nazi Party was Germany's National Socialist Party. A leftist organization. It's closest counterpart in the USA is the Democrat Party. I realize it's comforting to call all Republicans and Conservatives Nazi's. Not historically correct. Must be mis-directed anger about the FACT that nearly ALL of the 20th Century Mass Murderers/Politicians were on the LEFT! Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, to name a few.
July 19, 2008
2:04 a.m.
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speedstan writes:
Let me guess: the usual malcontents show up intent on breaking things, the cops get called in, and the "alternative media" starts complaing that the Fascist Police State (TM) won't allow dissent. Why is this so utterly predictable?
July 19, 2008
6:26 a.m.
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STOPUSAGiveaway writes:
When a government provides rights to TERRORISTS; HEATHEN BREEDERS via Sperm Donor Exponentials when crossing the USA Border to birth for auto-welfare citizenship from womb to tomb; Drug Runners not US Border Patrol Agents; Foreign Diplomats; Congress vs We The People; Public Assistance-vs Working Taxpayers; ignores dual citizenship for individuals like Madeline Alright whom are supposed to represent us dba the USA(among many including Mexican nations; clerics for murderers at Guantanamo; medical/education/social services for ILLEGAL;s; Dia#2 for Spanish for everything to accommodate ILLITERATES(illegals); rewards ILLEGITIMATES while taxpayers do without; H1B Visas for foreigners+extending graduates stays while our grads can't get an IT job nor pay back student loans; Reparations for everyone except +other nations not our US TROOPS as POW's; criminals not crime victims; repeated debt forgiveness of all nations at the decline of USA soverreignty; porn sicko's vs innocent children; ILLEGALs Alien Invaders aka "immigrants" insulting our heritage vs generations of US citizens: we do not have lst AMEND rights--we are just venting. just to name a few....
Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto Y O U
One Nation Under God
July 19, 2008
11:19 a.m.
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redwhiteandBLUE writes:
Looks like our country is in a big mess. Get ready for whats to happen in the near future..Obama is not the answer like some would think. Hold on.. white knuckles..we're about to go for a long, wild ride after the elections.
VIVA LA MIGRA!!!
July 19, 2008
5:11 p.m.
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redwhiteandBLUE writes:
Steel @1:05,
Be squaer ? LMAO !! Is that anything like "bredneck" ? LOL!
Why doesn't he self- deport ? I am..this neighborhood..has
been invaded! Good riddance to the music from way southwest..
the breaking of the HOA laws/rules, and all the other illegal
activities I see going on. I can't take it, "I'm" self-deporting!
What corner of the earth can I run too?!
VIVA LA MIGRA!
July 20, 2008
9:08 a.m.
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jrod193 writes:
funny to read the posts on here warning everybody of the ills of communism. if i'm not mistaken, what the federal reserve is currently doing by bailing out PRIVATE business with TAXPAYER dollars seems like we're already living in the u.s.s.r circa 1980.
July 21, 2008
5:07 a.m.
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BillK writes:
Will "Unconventional Denver" protest against the massive infusion of cash in elections from George Soros, Tim Gill, Jared Polis and labor unions?
Somehow, I think not.
July 28, 2008
10:26 a.m.
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SingleShot writes:
This nation is already a communist nation, Tommy. What you fail to realize is the Fabian/Trotskyite takeover by the so-called "neocons" of the Republican party. So, our choice of next president is between a Stalinist/Maoist communist, or a Fabian/Trotskyite communist. Don't believe me? Well, that's your problem because it's your lack of education, sorry to say. But, this is your lucky day. This is the United States of America, where the flow of information is still (temporarily) free, unless of course you listen to the corporatist media. Follow this link and watch the whole series, in order from part 1 to part 5. You'll then be up to speed with real Americans.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc...
I know it's difficult to give up one's illusions or delusions, but you'll be better for it.