Mom recalls shielding child from 'huge dogs'
Rocky Mountain News
Published February 26, 2008 at 12:30 a.m.
Photo by George Kochaniec Jr.
Laura Hagan protests her dog Rolo's death sentence outside of the Jefferson County Courthouse in Golden this morning. Rolo, a German Shepherd, has been in an animal shelter the past 14 weeks after an Arvada judge ruled he should be euthanized for biting a neighbor. Hagan has appealed the decision and is protesting while she awaits a new ruling.
Photo by George Kochaniec Jr.
Laura Hagan visits her dog Rolo at a Golden shelter.
Photo by George Kochaniec Jr.
Protesters outside Arvada Municipal Court in support of Rolo, a German Sheperd. A jury of 12 will decide the dog's fate. Rolo is on trial for biting a neighbor and could be put to death if found guilty.
In a dog-bite trial that could determine whether Rolo the German shepherd lives or dies, a woman testified Monday that last July she picked up her then 14-month-old child after she saw two dogs running toward her, started screaming and turned her back on the dogs.
"I absorbed the bite from the German shepherd in the behind," said Kathy Hardin, a neighbor of the dog's owner in Old Town Arvada.
Hardin said the next day, July 2, she told Arvada animal control officers that she wanted to file charges against Rolo's owner, Laura Hagan, to make sure an attack couldn't happen again.
An Arvada municipal judge had ordered Rolo killed after neighbors of the bitten woman showed up in court last year to say the dog was aggressive and instilled fear.
But Hagan launched a petition campaign, organized pickets and created a Web site to save Rolo, winning him a stay of execution - so far.
Hagan's attorney, Joe Lazarra, tried to get Hardin to say that she hired a lawyer and took professional photographs of her bite before she decided to press charges. He also kept asking her if it was true that she didn't press charges until mid-July.
But Hardin stuck to her version, saying, "I told them the next day that I wanted to file charges. I can't help it if animal control did not follow up."
Lazarra focused on the scream, emphasizing that it came before the dog bite. He asked Hardin if she realized that screaming provoked dogs.
"There were two huge dogs running fast toward me and my baby," Hardin replied. "You don't really expect me to stand there frozen do you?"
Hardin said she didn't notice the pain of the bruise until after she was sure her son was safe, but that it hurt for the next three days. Photographs show four U-shaped marks on her right buttock, indicating two separate bites.
Hagan is charged with having dogs at large and with keeping a dangerous dog. If she is found guilty by the jury, Rolo could be put down by court order.
Three subsequent witnesses described Hardin's bite wound, but none saw the actual attack.
Asked if the wound is less serious than she claimed, Hardin said, "I had nine months of physical therapy. I would say that was pretty significant."
The trial is expected to end today.
February 25, 2008
8:30 a.m.
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Bob299 writes:
So, the next time, the mother shouldn't scream and take the chance that Rolo may or may not bite her kid? Give me a break.
February 25, 2008
8:31 a.m.
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BTP writes:
This story is misleading. The jury won't make the decision on whether the dog lives or dies, the jury will only have the task of determining if Ms. Hagan is guilty of the two charges: dog at large and dangerous dog. Assuming the jury finds Ms. Hagan guilty, there will then be a separate hearing, only in front of the judge, and the judge will decide the fate of the dog. The jury dosn't make that life/death decision.
February 25, 2008
8:50 a.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
The animal rights nuts have sent so much hate mail to the victim of the dog bite that she has to move?
Animal rights nuts.... only that scum would value the life of a dog over a human. Just like the scum that ran the death camps at Auschwitz where they loved their German Shepherd attack dogs more than the dying and suffering humans they were "guarding".
February 25, 2008
9:05 a.m.
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mytwosense writes:
rickg, as one of your so-called animal rights "nuts," I take exception to your comparison with Nazi death camps. I also take exception to your apparent belief that valuing the life of an animal automatically means you don't value human life.
Yes, people who have sent Hagan hate mail are wrong for doing so. But please don't lump everyone who cares about animals and this dog's fate in their category.
February 25, 2008
9:15 a.m.
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JK writes:
A lot is being lost here from the original story. Rolo left a scratch on the victim, if he was a vicious dog he would have taken a huge chunk out of her. I can understand her being afraid, but to have a dog destroyed over a scratch is sad. Put the owner in training, put the victim in counseling, socialize the dog better and get on with life.
February 25, 2008
9:25 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
As an owner of three eogs, I agree that the mother WAY over-reacted, and that the dog doesn't deserve to die. However, the neighbors have legitimate concerns. This story also leaves out information, like the fact the owner let the dog run free several times, was seen unable to control her dog while walking him on multiple occasions, and the dog (when in the yard) went so berserk to get at people that he damaged the fence. The dog has been a ticking time bomb. The court should spare his life, on the proviso he successfully completes agression training and the owner behavior management training. Also, both the owner and dog need to be on probation- if anything else happens, then further action will be taken. The bottom line here is that Laura Hagan was NOT a responsible dog owner, and since it's not the dog's fault, he deserves a second chance.
February 25, 2008
9:29 a.m.
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davies writes:
It's a shame we have to waste the time and expense of a six-person jury trial over this. People, keep your dogs fenced and/or leashed, and don't let them bark incessantly. If this dog is euthanized, it is the owner's fault.
February 25, 2008
9:34 a.m.
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Brain writes:
Letting the dog run free put the dogs life in jeopardy; the neighbor has no obligation to learn how to be around dogs while the owner of the dog has an obligation to make sure the dog doesn't bother/bite/bark others. I do think the dog should be given another chance.
February 25, 2008
9:46 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
I propose to let the neighbor bite the dog back and then they will be even.
February 25, 2008
9:51 a.m.
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Retread writes:
The more people I meet, the more I love my dogs. Dogs are meant to run free, people are not, they should have stayed in the caves..What a paranoid, fearfull species...
February 25, 2008
9:57 a.m.
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davies writes:
"Dogs are meant to run free..." Well there's the problem for you, folks. That's the kind of stupid attitude that usually ends up with dogs like Rolo getting put down.
February 25, 2008
10:01 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
My neice bit another child at daycare. Should my neice be euthanized?
February 25, 2008
10:08 a.m.
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Spencer writes:
Dog lover, neighbor hater (generally) but I have to agree with Fiesty. I walk my dogs on a leash and there is an immigrant family at the end of the block that never ever has their dog (chow) on a leash. Comes out and tries to fight with my dogs and they apologize in their broken english. I finally lost it and told them it was obvious they didn't care and to stop apologizing.
February 25, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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EastVail writes:
Heidi, no, she shouldn't be euthanized. But she should teach you how to spell.
February 25, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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horsinaround writes:
Usually if a dog is aggressive, it is the fault of the owner, either due to mistreatment, poor training, or not socializing the dog. Our neighbor's dog bit three people in our neighborhood and was eventually put down. This was a hound dog! I have no proof, but I believe he was mistreated by his owner as hound dogs are not a normally aggressive breed. I had no problem with this dog and he never bothered me; although he was allowed to run loose. My guess, he sensed those afraid of him and went after them. It's sad he was put down and it's totally the owner's fault. Rolo deserves another chance and maybe another owner who can handle that breed of dog. At the least, he should be retrained and Ms. Hagan definitely needs to learn how to train and handle a dog. It is not Kathy Hardin's fault she was bitten and it's crazy for her to recieve hate mail. Fix the issues the dog and his owner have and let him live! If he bites again, then make a decision on whether to put him down.
February 25, 2008
10:10 a.m.
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fiesty writes:
Brain has a point. The fact remains that the owner didn't maintain control of her dog, and someone was injured (rather severely if there is nerve damage) as a result. This reinforces the neighbors complaints that the owner struggles to physically restrain her dog. As a responsible dog owner, I find that inexcusable; the dog involved suffers, and so do the rest of us, all because of her laziness.
February 25, 2008
10:18 a.m.
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horsinaround writes:
Spencer,
If I was you, I'd take a picture of this Chow when he's out and going after your dogs (if you can) and then I'd report these folks to animal control. They will get a ticket and maybe learn to keep their dog in or animal control will pick it up and they'll have to pay to get it out of "doggy jail". Usually $$$$ talks.
February 25, 2008
10:20 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
EastVail,
Oops, I forgot that rule, i before e, except after c, or when sounded as "a" as in neighbor and weigh.
Of course, "Heidi" doesn't follow that rule. Maybe I was just thinking about myself...
February 25, 2008
10:26 a.m.
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horsinaround writes:
Heidi,
If you're curious, Heidi doesn't follow that rule because in German ei is pronounced "i" (with the German inflection) and ie is pronouncd "e" (German inflection again).
February 25, 2008
10:33 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
horsinaround,
I wasn't curious about that. That's why I said "Of course, Heidi doesn't follow that rule". But thanks for trying to help.
February 25, 2008
10:38 a.m.
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wow writes:
Good morning mytwosense,
Right you are, and speaking of dogs, I found something for you re: the thread about the Iraqi dogs. I think it was you that wanted it??
http://baghdadpups.com/
Rolo shouldn't be killed for his owner's inability to control/train him, but I think the owner should have to face some serious consequences. The way he is, Rolo isn't even adoptable and is doomed to die...once a dog had bitten, that's usually pretty much it, and it's her fault for allowing it to happen in the first place. Sooo glad the baby wasn't the one who got nailed, just the jumpy mom.
February 25, 2008
10:51 a.m.
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Retread writes:
There are still places on this earth (believe it or not) where dogs can roam free. Dogs should never be near large groups of people (citys), people are very dangerous, and need to be trained.
My dogs are always leashed, in a fenced backyard, or in the dog run. It is not the way I prefer, but until I get moved to sparsly populated area, it is the way it has to be. Again it is not the dogs fault, it is mans fault, but, of course the dog has to pay with its life. When you live in a city too long, you tend to lose all common sense, at least that is what it looks like to me...
February 25, 2008
11:10 a.m.
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horsinaround writes:
Unfortunately unless you live on hundreds of acres, dogs have to be fenced and kept in a yard. I live in a rural area on 35 acres and we still have neighbors and still have to keep our dogs in. The dogs that are let out tend to chase horses, cattle, chickens, get hit by cars and just tend to get in trouble. Another problem with letting a dog roam free even in a sparsely populated area, a single coyote will lure a dog, big or small, over a hill where there is a pack waiting to attack it. It's happened out here. Plus, there's the issue of cars hitting dogs and ranchers shooting dogs who harm their cattle. Dogs are domesticated animals and are not meant to be roaming free, at least not if you love your dog.
February 25, 2008
11:18 a.m.
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Retread writes:
I know ranchers whose dogs have never seen a leash, of course the live on 6000 acres or more. The dogs live just fine free, they know the local coyotes and their ways, they ride in the back of a pickup, they help herd the cows, sheep, and other critters. You are still in the city with only 35 acres, and should keep your critters rounded up. Yes, they are domesticated, however we are not..
February 25, 2008
11:19 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
jdub,
You don't have the right to do that. Only the government has the right to kill.
February 25, 2008
11:22 a.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
Yeah... the animal rights nuts can "take exception" at being compared to death camp guards, but it doesn't change the fact that their actions are IDENTICAL.
Animal rights nuts value a dog's wellbeing above that of an innocent human being (Hardin).
Death camp guards value a dog's wellbeing above that of an innocent human being (Jewish victims).
When the animal rights nuts STOP sending hate mail to the victim of the attacking dog, and START expending as much effort in defending her basic human right to walk down a street without fear of being attacked, THEN they will have some credibility. Until that time, animal rights nuts will continue to portray themselves as no better than death camp guards that shared their belief that some humans do not deserve protection.... while animals do.
February 25, 2008
11:25 a.m.
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Heidi writes:
jdub, maybe you should just turn your dog on your nephew. Then it may or may not be illegal.
February 25, 2008
11:26 a.m.
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horsinaround writes:
Your rancher friend's dogs are lucky then. Of course, they won't shoot their own dogs. There is a ranch down the road from us that is well over 6,000 acres and they've announced and they do shoot dogs on site as roaming dogs will attack their cattle and the calves. Seeing as how I'm about 20 miles from the closest store or gas station, I'd have to argue the fact with you that I'm still in the city. The dirt roads and long drives tell me otherwise. By the way, my dogs are kept in a 5 acre area unless they are out with me. I love my dogs too much to let them get killed.
February 25, 2008
11:32 a.m.
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horsinaround writes:
By the way, Retread,
I think it should be considered an act of cruelty to allow a dog to ride in the bed of a pickup truck unsecured. My husband actually saw a black lab fall out of the back of a pickup truck he was following when the truck hit a bump. The dog bounced several times and when my husband stopped to help it, it was already dead. Not a good thing.
February 25, 2008
11:57 a.m.
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mark79trans writes:
This dog left a bite mark; the dog didn't maul the lady or her child...German Shepherds are instinctively protective dogs; they are not violent unlike a pit bull, which is instinctively violent. The owner was irresponsible and should face the liability in this case. The dog may need some training, but euthanizing the dog seams ridiculous given the fact that this was a simple bite. This owner put her dog in the wrong place and this lady over reacted...I don't see how this is the dog's fault If the dog wanted to hurt or kill this lady, he would have. If this owner does what she is suppose to do, after the fines and everything else, she should get the dog back and hopefully learn from this mistake. I think at worst the dog should be put up for adoption.
As a side note, I have two German Shepherds. Certainly, I would avoid an unknown Shepherd because they are very protective and alert when you are in their space. I was bitten by a family member's German Shepherd when I was in his barn moving a table with a friend. The dog was not at all thrilled about me in his space. It was a simple bite to the leg that hurt horribly and caused four puncture wounds and a major bruise to the muscle. However, a male German Shepherd generates over 300lbs per square inch. The dog could have removed my calf muscle if he wanted but he let go when he made his point. They are not going to attack anyone for no reason, and they are instinctively protective dogs. If they perceive a threat, they will neutralize the threat...first with a bark...then if persists, they may bite. Since they are incredibly protective and territorial dogs, as an owner, I make sure mine are confined and I respect them for what they are. Shoot, they even protect my family's cats; my female herds the cats into one place and watches over them. Living in the high country, they protect my kids...that is their job. ,,,they do it well. Oh, and linking German Shepherds with the death camps is pretty stupid and ignorant. They are loving, loyal, protective herding dogs that will do what they are asked to do. They do their job without complaint even if it means sitting in the freezing cold; they would gladly die for their owner. My dogs were trained to respect those that I introduce...they will play with anyone I introduce to them. They will remember months out that a person is OK so I can have a friend feed them that has not seen them in months. If a person they don't know acts fearful and weird around them, they will defend...plain and simple.
February 25, 2008
noon
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fiesty writes:
"The holocaust is a lie made up by the Zionists. The death camps don't exist. Your point is nul and void."
jdub88- ARE YOU INSANE?? You can't honestly believe that crap; or maybe you do, since you posted on another thread about being a white supremacist. I spent 11 years in Germany, visited the concentration camps, and MET both mutilated survivors as well as some of the American troops who freed them. After hearing the stories from both, I couldn't sleep for over a week. For the holocaust to be a "lie", then 1) where did the torture marks and numbered tattoos come from, 2) why are there hundreds of american soldiers who recollected the conditions they encountered, and 3) where did the photos comes from?
February 25, 2008
12:10 p.m.
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fiesty writes:
You are a sick puppy. No matter how much you wish otherwise, because you want a scapegoat, the holocaust is FACT with too much documented evidence (both eyewitness, survivor, footage, pits with thousands and thousands of bones in them, etc). Only a fool could try to claim otherwise without more overwhelming evidence. (And a book or pamphlet doesn't count!) Further, I can't believe you would sit there and accuse our brave military of lying!
From now on, whatever point YOU try to make will be considered "null and void", since you are hating, racist, bigot with no grasp on reality.
February 25, 2008
12:17 p.m.
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RoloFan writes:
I hear the "victim" in the case can't produce any medical evidence suggesting she was seriously hurt.
Look at pictures of Rolo and you can tell he's just an overgrown goof who has been treated like a baby and not the working dog he was breed to be.
Regardless, the dog should not be killed. I suspect the owner (a small female) never taught Rolo basic obedience. He's a big dog, and without proper training, he could easily pull her all over the place, making him difficult to control, but not dangerous. A well-trained 5 year old dog would know to sit and wait for persmission to leave its owner's side. So she should be fined for negligence and the dog should be given to someone who will do the work and turn this dog into a service dog or police dog.
February 25, 2008
12:22 p.m.
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wow writes:
Fiesty, jdubb's yanking your chain... He doesn't realize that Holocaust jokes aren't funny. The one about letting the dog bite his nephew was tho.....
But I don't know whether to laugh or cry about comparing animal lovers to Nazis...of all the subjects to bring Godwin's Law into play...over dog bites?? Reductio ad Hitlerum, the argument is flawed.
Really, you must do better than that rickg.
February 25, 2008
12:23 p.m.
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fiesty writes:
wow- I hope it's yanking my chain, but on the other blog, he was spouting off white supremacist nonsense...
February 25, 2008
12:24 p.m.
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benn writes:
And Rick puts out a perfect Strawman argument...
February 25, 2008
12:30 p.m.
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BTP writes:
Rolofan, the victim doesn't have to prove serious injury.
Read the city ordinance. All that has to be proven is that there was bodily injury. It doesn't have to be serious. The person doesn't have to bleed. If the dog caused bodily injury, thats it, case closed, and Ms. Hagan is guilty.
February 25, 2008
12:31 p.m.
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wow writes:
NCB,
It's less about loving dogs and more about solving a problem in a common sense way. We all agree the dog's owner ought to pay big time for having an out of control pet. Dogs don't understand the "death penalty".It's about safety and a reasonable level of compassion locally.
February 25, 2008
12:35 p.m.
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getfacts writes:
Laura Hagan's dog had aggressive physical contact with a mother who felt the need to get between the dog and a small child. If Rollo was a person, it would be undisputable battery. IDEA: If Hagan is to keep this dog, it should be under the condition that HAGAN move away, and that her new neighbors are fore-warned about the once ALREADY convicted dog. Would Laura give up her home, and a long, possibly unsuccessful search for a neighborhood that would accept such a threat?
February 25, 2008
12:45 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
rickg: "When the animal rights nuts STOP sending hate mail to the victim of the attacking dog, and START expending as much effort in defending her basic human right to walk down a street without fear of being attacked, THEN they will have some credibility. Until that time, animal rights nuts will continue to portray themselves as no better than death camp guards that shared their belief that some humans do not deserve protection.... while animals do."
Many, many people have come out in support of Rolo, while emphasizing that Hardin must get training for him. There is a faction of people who have vilified Hagan, but they are wrong, and not all of us have done so. As the mother of a baby, I fully agree with you that a person should be allowed to walk the street with her child without fearing a loose dog will attack them both.
On the other hand, as the owner of several dogs, I would also want to know that a first-time incident even an animal control officer said was extremely minor, would not result in a death sentence to my dog. I don't even think Hagan was calling for Rolo to be put down. She did file a complaint, as was well within her rights to do so.
I've visited Hardin's website, and she does not vilify Hagan. She actually stresses the importance of being responsible for your dog. I believe she has learned a very hard lesson from this, I believe if Rolo really wanted to harm that woman and her child, he would have done so, but didn't, and I believe he deserves a second chance. It's that simple. I don't hate humans, I don't hate children, I just have weighed all the factors of this particular situation out and believe some mercy is called for here.
If you have your mind made up that people who love animals are comparative to death camp Nazis, there's really nothing much I can say to you to change your mind. It is very difficult to convince someone of something that doesn't validate what they would prefer to keep believing. But, I thought I'd take a shot, since it's a very common misunderstanding that animal rights advocates are anti-human. We're not. It's very easy to be both pro-animal and pro-people. It just takes a slightly more compassionate view.
February 25, 2008
12:45 p.m.
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getfacts writes:
Also, those who think a victim has to proove they didn't ask for it ( as in: she screamed, her fault) harken back to the time when women who were raped were accused of dressing provocatively, or not fighting back, or fighting back with unequal force to the crime.
February 25, 2008
12:46 p.m.
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vudumom writes:
Mark79trans, You are absolutely correct about Geman Sheperds. My mother was friends with a police dog trainer in Baltimore. We always had German Sheperd Police trained dogs growing up.We would get the ones that would fail for one reason or another. Our last one wouldn't attack everytime he was commanded to.He was a great dog and an excellent watchdog.He used to follow my little brother when he would sleepwalk at 3.a.m. in the morning to protect him. The police would find him blocks from home and bring him and the dog back to our house.The dog however was teased constantly by kids in the neighborhood,they heard he was police trained.We came home one afternoon to find our dog sitting outside the fence behind our house and huge chunks of cement in our yard.The police showed up with a crazy woman complaining that our dog bit her teenage son.When everything was said and done,what actually happened was her son and his friend decided to tease and throw rocks and big chunks of cement at our dog,while he was in his own yard.the dog got pissed and went after them they ran he jumped the fence chased them and caught one as he was trying to climb a fence.The dog bit him pretty good. The police did an investigation and found that the dog had no choice but to defend himself,the dog had marks on him too.The woman was pissed and actually filed suit against my mother for damages.We got to court and the judge looked at the facts of the case and threw out the suit telling the woman that she is the one that should be sued.We moved and once again the kids in the neighborhood started teasing him.We gave the dog to some friends who lived out in the country.That was a very sad day.Our house was broken into 2 weeks later.German Sheperds are wonderful dogs ,but must be trained.
February 25, 2008
12:49 p.m.
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BirdonaWire writes:
Jdub, how about you espouse those views to a group of live people instead of cowering behind your computer in between pornsite visits. Pussy!
February 25, 2008
12:55 p.m.
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fishtanksamurai writes:
Rolo has been known to sport a black trech coat and listens to Marilyn Manson. He's been drawing pictures of dogs biting people for years. Why were all the warning signs ignored? Didn't the owner realize that all those hours Rolo spent playing "Doom","Halo", and "Mortal Komabat" would lead to this? What a waste.
February 25, 2008
1:12 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Heidi (the Vixon), you have been turned! jdub has you under his wing. What happened!? I enjoy his humor as well, but remember he is evil. He only wants you to take him to Valhalla.
jdub, you would value the life of an animal over a human? I know what you are trying to do, but please don't do this to the Valkyrie vixon. She is much better than the both of us.
February 25, 2008
1:15 p.m.
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GWM writes:
GayManOnAWire, don't treat jdub so harshly. You do not know him like I do. His is satire and intellectual battle. Don't condemn, do battle with him.
February 25, 2008
1:22 p.m.
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davies writes:
Dan2: Good opinions, on topic thankfully; but I find you a little naive on the legal aspect: "I would DEMAND medical proof that (the bite victim) has nerve damage..."
Enough money is spent 'proving' these kinds of things already, by all our fine personal injury lawyers, worker's comp lawyers, ad nauseum. How much would you ask the taxpayers spend to prove this, when it doesn't really matter legally anyway? To wit: either the dog is aggressive and attacked a human, or it isn't/didn't.
The dog is not going to be punished for a past crime it already committed. If it is found to be too aggressive, it will be euthanized because it is a danger to other people.
And if the victim has nerve damage, she should sue the dog owner.
February 25, 2008
1:25 p.m.
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HolierThanThou writes:
The last dog that bit me tasted good in a stew.
February 25, 2008
1:28 p.m.
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mark79trans writes:
vudumom, oh my, I am sorry to hear that. It is absolutely stupid to provoke or tease a GSD. Even when they are mistreated, they still won't visciously maul someone...bite yes...maul no. I had a friend who had to put his down for the same reason as you had to give up yours...the neighborhood kids teased and threw rocks to the point where the dog was too unpredictable to keep alive...sad!!!
It would have been interesting to see what actually happened. An adult acting strange or fearful with a small child would trigger my Shepherd's protective instincts. It is actually possible that Rolo may have felt it necessary to protect the child. If this lady made noise and grabbed the child, there is a strong possiblity Rolo's bite was a warning. Both my Shepherds, my female especially, would bite someone if they made an aggressive move toward a child even if the child wasn't mine.
For those that think only animal rights people are defending Rolo, your wrong. I am in no way an animal rights person, and I am mostly critical of them. This isn't a case of a pack of pit bulls going on a prey driven rampage, this was an owner who allowed her dog to be in the wrong place...why euthanize the dog. The owner needs to be penalized. German Shepherds are intelligent working dogs that provide families and service people a reliable tool. They server a purpose, but they are ton of responsibility. This owner failed to exercise the responsibility required.
Dan2 - I actually know my breeds pretty well. The American Pit Bull was breed to fight. They have moderately low intelligence and they have an extremely strong prey instinct. They have zero working instincts. Dogsbite.org provides a pretty good breakdown of the Pit Bull lover propaganda. I don't care if someone loves these dogs and I don't care if people own them. However, it is important to know what to expect from a dog and how to handle the dog. Rolo's owner didn't respect the instincts of her dog and it got her into trouble. I know exactly what to expect from GSDs and I act accordingly. Too often, owners who don't accept the Pit Bull's prey instincts end up with some tragedy.
http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-bre...
February 25, 2008
1:31 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
omg, I am having so much fun reading all of this. I think all of this brainstorming should give us 2 credit hours. No classes needed.
February 25, 2008
1:32 p.m.
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Beverley writes:
We adopted a mixed breed puppy from our neighbors across the road. (He was a family planning accident). He was, by nature, such an agressive puppy (biting people and oher pets, chewing, destroying everything) that we took him to a specialist (the Canine Psychology Center) for behavior modification. It was expensive, but today he is a calm and well-mannered dog after this 28 day inpatient stay. He was only 6 months old a the time, but I remember that we were told that older dogs can be trained to mind. Maybe one of these programs can help Rolo
February 25, 2008
1:35 p.m.
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RoloFan writes:
BTP, the rational for killing the dog is that he's dangerous. A dangerous dog (like a Pit Bull), would do serious injury, not leave a few abrasions and some bruised skin. A herding dog, when stimulated, will nip, and that does break the skin, but once again, it's never a serious injury, it's a warning or correction, on the part of the dog; it's doing what it was bred to do. It also doesn't make the dog dangerous, and is no justification for having the dog killed.
By the way, I've been nipped by my Welsh Corgis when they've tried to herd me. It's not comfortable, and I can see why an unknowing victim would be upset, but it's still not justification for putting the dog down. The dog thinks it's doing its job.
February 25, 2008
1:51 p.m.
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mytwosense writes:
In all honesty, if I was walking down a street with my baby in my arms, and a large dog suddenly bounded right in between us, I might be frightened enough to give out a screech, too. Then again, maybe I wouldn't, as I'm pretty knowledgeable about dogs and know that such a reaction could provoke aggression.
The point is, not everyone is this knowledgeable, you don't know what you'd do in such a situation, and Hagan shouldn't be labeled as stupid for being fearful.
By the same token, Hardin shouldn't be forced to give up her dog when there is no prior history of him biting someone and the injuries, IF ANY, to Hagan are extremely minor. If she suffered nerve damage, that was not inflicted on her by the dog, but rather by her own reaction of turning suddenly, or whatever she did to damage her nerves. She may have grounds for a lawsuit for that, but that was not an injury directly inflicted on her by the dog, so it shouldn't be one of the criteria for determining if he should be euthanized.
It is also plainly clear that Hardin is remorseful for the incident, is committed to getting Rolo trained properly, and has taken responsibility for what happened. Her unwavering commitment to keeping Rolo alive and getting him back DOES NOT MEAN she doesn't take responsibility for what happened.
I wonder how hard some of you would try to get your dog back if you were in her shoes? Maybe that's what's really causing some of you to be so judgmental about whether Hardin should get him back. In your heart, you know you'd never make that much of an effort if it was your dog.
February 25, 2008
1:56 p.m.
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redwhiteandBLUE writes:
Convict him, or set him free I tired of this story already.
February 25, 2008
1:57 p.m.
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RoloFan writes:
From DogBite.org
"5 million Americans are bitten by dogs each year. Two breeds account for nearly 70% of bites that end in fatality and 64% in maiming. . . Statistically, two breeds account for the most severe attacks: pit bulls and rottweilers. These two breeds do not make up the majority of household dogs, yet they disproportionately represent vicious attacks.1 This is unsurprising. Both are fighting breeds -- bred for tenacity, skill and strength in the area of fighting."
February 25, 2008
2:02 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
jdub, great skiing. I kept up with Ullr all weekend at Keystone, Beaver Creek, and Breck. Double black extreme!
GWM, I am evil as well, but not as evil as jdub. I am slowly tring to break him. It is quite a project. He may have to go to Valhalla sooner than he wishes.
February 25, 2008
2:04 p.m.
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GWM writes:
my2nonsense, did I get this correct?
"In your heart, you know you'd never make that much of an effort if it was your dog."
Are you kidding? Are you drinking today? Did you split the pill in half today or not take it at all?
It is obvious that youu have never owned a pet. I would do anything to get Rolo back. I will adopt Rolo!!
He did a bad thing and it is apparent that Rolo's reaction was unjustified. I am sorry this happened to her. A study I saw not too long ago had German Shepherds and Golden Retrievers as the #1 and #2 family dogs (not sure the order).
Rolo should absolutely be given another chance. He was not trained improperly. He was not normally aggressive. He is a beloved family member. SAVE ROLO!
February 25, 2008
2:04 p.m.
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fleetmack writes:
if a mother fears walking with her baby because a dog is threatening her, I think this is a no-brainer that the dog should be removed from the neighborhood. I guess if the owner wants to pay to have it put up somewhere where there is no chance if it attacking a human, go for it.
February 25, 2008
2:08 p.m.
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GWM writes:
OOPPPSS, my2sense, got it wrong. Sorry!!
February 25, 2008
2:10 p.m.
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Quagmate writes:
There are all kinds of dog bites. A scratch that caused nerve damadge sounds like the dog did not nip, but did the grab with the canine bite usually used to shake a victim until it's neck or back breaks (rabbit, woodchuck, etc.). Many would be surprised how little blood or scracthing takes place with a dog bite, but how much damadge is actually done.
Dogs rear teeth are not desinged to cut, they are desinged to crush bone and chew. So don't assume just becuase it was a scratch it didn't hurt like heck.
Feel sorry for the dog, but the owner let this happen. She needs to take some personal responsibility letting this happen. If the dog is destroyed, it's the owners fault, not the person who was bitten.
February 25, 2008
2:13 p.m.
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rickg19611 writes:
Zap the dog... and then send all his supporters and defenders to psychiatric evaluations..... so they can find out why the nuts value an animal over people.
February 25, 2008
2:15 p.m.
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GWM writes:
maybe we could all eat Rolo at the VI some evening. jdub, does this pass your muster?
February 25, 2008
2:18 p.m.
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GWM writes:
rickg19611, have you been tutored by jdub?
No kidding aside, I value Rolo over many posters on the RMN.
February 25, 2008
2:19 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
I was once bitten by my neighbor's dog, a Rottweiler (notice the proper placement of the "e" and "i"), as I was pulling weeds along the fenceline. He was confined in his fenced yard, but reached over the 4 foot fence. Was he justified in protecting his own property? Or did he feel threatened because he was confined? Were his owners responsible because they never paid attention to their dog? Or do I need classes on how to properly pull weeds?
February 25, 2008
2:20 p.m.
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GWM writes:
fresh, I surely hope you are correct. There have been MANY attacks by pitbulls where the owner said the same thing.
February 25, 2008
2:21 p.m.
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RoloFan writes:
Fresh, your kidding yourself.
You've been lucky, that's all.
February 25, 2008
2:21 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
Where's DahmersCookbook? Maybe he could properly prepare a meal of German Shepherd.
February 25, 2008
2:22 p.m.
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ProudandRespectful writes:
DO ANY OF YOU PEOPLE WORK? It's a nice day... go outside and peel yourself away from your computers.
February 25, 2008
2:28 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Heidi, I am sooo sorry. I think I have shamed Dhamer to never come back. I am sooo bad. Maybe we will recognize him under another nom de plume.
February 25, 2008
2:30 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Proud, can you come over and take my Christmas lights down? I mean my pagan celebration lights? I am too busy doing what you are also doing.
February 25, 2008
2:38 p.m.
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me2 writes:
It all comes down to personal responsibility. It was the mothers responsibility to stay out of a "dogs allowed area" just as it is the breathers decision to stay out of "smoking allowed" bars, restaurants and casinos.
Wolves and coyotes are meant to run free, dogs are meant to sit and watch us eat and make us feel guilty.
Heidi, 2 credit hours in what class? Crime and Delinquency or Abnormal Psych?
February 25, 2008
2:50 p.m.
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GWM writes:
me2, i hope that was sarcasm from tutoring by jdub and not serious that the mother should have stayed out of the dogs allowed area.
Never mind, instead of erasing this, I understand your point.
February 25, 2008
2:55 p.m.
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BTP writes:
Rolofan, I never said I think the dog should be euthanized. In fact, I don't think he should. I just said that it appears to be 100% obvious that Ms. Hagan is guilty of offenses.
February 25, 2008
2:56 p.m.
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thewayiseeit writes:
This is an absurd waste of resources and protest time when there are more pressing matters that I believe need our attention... including an economy that is on the downturn, a military that is spread thin, and access to health care for poor Americans. A dogs life is not worth the lives of the majority of Americans. What a waste of resources and the courts time.
February 25, 2008
3:03 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
thewayweseeit,
I don't believe a municipal judge can rule over any of those matters.
February 25, 2008
3:04 p.m.
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GWM writes:
thewayiseeit, or thedumbwayyouthink, thank you for your pearls of wisdom. You must be new to these blogs. Don't bother to come back. We discuss more pressing things as well. Thanks so much for your wisdom on Rolo. We really think you got it and we are sooo ashamed of our views in this blog. I guess this is all folks! thewayiseeit has spoken!
February 25, 2008
3:05 p.m.
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GWM writes:
oh, thewayiseeit, two more posts. maybe not such a waste of time?
February 25, 2008
3:12 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
Woof Woof! Does Rolo deserve a second chance? Yeah, he probably does. will he get one? Nope, the judge has already ordered that he be put down. Semantics....
February 25, 2008
3:13 p.m.
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Eric writes:
I think we should give the dog 2 years probation, community service hours, register as a canine offender, and make it wear an ankle bracelet!
February 25, 2008
3:19 p.m.
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PJM writes:
They should give Rolo to that little German kid that was getting picked on at school. He could bite all the terrible bullies. Two problems solved.
February 25, 2008
3:27 p.m.
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RoloFan writes:
From dogbreedinfo.con
"German Shepherds have a very strong protective instinct, so they should be extensively socialized to prevent over-guarding when they are an adult. Aggression and attacks on people are largely due to poor breeding, handling and training. A well bred, well-adjusted, and trained dog is for the most part generally good with other pets and excellent with children in the family. They must be firmly trained in obedience from an early age."
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/germanshe...
February 25, 2008
3:34 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Eric, a voice of reason!! Perfect solution. I will be his probation officer. I would still adopt him.
There is no way this German Shepherd deserves to be put down!
February 25, 2008
3:36 p.m.
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MollysDad writes:
PJM, I'm crying I'm laughing so hard.... too funny.
February 25, 2008
3:41 p.m.
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strebman writes:
Couple of comments:
I was bitten by a dog delivering pizza to an upscale home, dog broke the skin and caused a blood blister. I was required by my employer to file a police report but would never file charges against the owner unless i was severely injured or required medical care and then it would only be to pay for my medical expenses. Some dogs get excited when the doorbell rings, or when people run away screaming from them.
I also own a dog who has bitten someone. My dog is on probation for biting a Qwest guy in Boulder County. It was his first offense and did not break the skin. The only reason we had to go to court was because Qwest made the guy file a police report. We ended up just paying court costs and a fine.
No dog deserves to die for a minor bite and especially not for a first offense.
Hardin is greedy plain and simple.
February 25, 2008
3:53 p.m.
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wow writes:
Dogs deliver pizzas???
Sorry, couldn't resist. Really, really sorry ;).
Hey Heidi, we do not "pull" fenceline weeds, that's where you went wrong...we use a Weed Wacker and dare the brute to come and get it. Rottie soufle can be prepared in such ways.
February 25, 2008
4:14 p.m.
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strebman writes:
was bitten by a dog WHILE delivering pizza... Happy???
Either way, the dog doesn't deserve to die. Hagan is guilty of having a dog at large, and should be responsible for any medical bills related to the bite, but 9 months of physical therapy for a bite to her buttocks, come on!!!
Put Hardin and the dog on probation. If the dog bites again then maybe something needs to be done with the dog. and if it gets out again and is running at large, take the dog away from her and give it to someone who will care for it and not let it run around and get run over by a beer truck!!!
February 25, 2008
4:15 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Dan2, why did you even comment? I wish you hadn't. What profound garbage. If you do not like the thread, then go away. What a moron for saying something and then saying you are over it! Oh what pearls of wisdom you have left us! Oh how blessed we are to have received you comment! Oh my let us all thank Dan2 for his wisdom! Barf!!!
I can't wait for your next pearl of wisdom on something you think is meaningful. Let's all watch Dan2 so we can learn.
February 25, 2008
4:16 p.m.
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Retread writes:
Just about every view known to man has been said here. I will only say what I said at the begining. This incident would have been solved with a apology, a handshake, and doctors checkup in the old days. Now it is in litigation, in the paper, and on everyones tongues, with not one lick of common sense involved.
Paranoid victim, to idiot owner, to court officials, to bottom feeding lawyers, to animal lovers, to city officials, the only species here without a say is Rollo, he just looks forward to supper, and a game of fetch no doubt. He has no idea his fate is held by idiots..........
February 25, 2008
4:24 p.m.
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me2 writes:
The best line yet. "Some dogs get excited when people run away screaming from them."
I get excited when people run away screaming from me, so I understand how the dog feels!
February 25, 2008
4:33 p.m.
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strebman writes:
AMEN Retread... I agree, an apology, handshake and a visit to the doctor is the way it should have ended.
It is my understanding that Hagan's attorney is doing this pro bono. He is a dog lover too.
February 25, 2008
4:34 p.m.
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GWM writes:
me2, so then do you and bite them? Just curious. I think you and jdub should hook up. Both of you favor biting the screamer.
February 25, 2008
4:49 p.m.
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strebman writes:
me2, what will any dog trainer tell you when you face a dog? don't be loud and don't run away because it will invoke the dog to chase and become excited or afraid.
What do most dogs like to do? CHASE things and play fetch. The dog shouldn't have been out, Hagan is guilty of that. However the point is that the DOG DOESN'T DESERVE TO DIE...
February 25, 2008
5:39 p.m.
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Quagmate writes:
In the "Old Days" they shot the dog on the spot. Don't fool yourself into thinking a dog attack was taken for granted back in the day. That's why lawyers came along, so we could argue over common sense instead of the cost of a round of ammo.
I recall in Georgia there was a a "wild dog" law (it may still be on the books in many places). If a dog was off-leash it was considered wild and dangerous and could be shot on site (that was around 1976). That is why our dog never was off leash for three years in Georgia. That and the fact some of the locals may have eaten it (hey I lived there, I'm not kidding).
February 25, 2008
5:40 p.m.
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me2 writes:
Strebman, I was joking, joking I tell you. I am in favor of saving the dog. Happy?
February 25, 2008
5:48 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
GWM, you were on a roll today. Do Mondays make you angry?
February 25, 2008
6:07 p.m.
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jax writes:
I think this whole case is ridiculous...Rolo was offered a new home at a dog sanctuary in Utah but the CITY ATTORNEY denied this option, among others that would have provided a satisfactory resolution to this fiasco and saved some tax payer dollars. This isn't even about Hagan and Hardin any longer, it's about the City of Arvada trying to prove a point and I think it's disgusting. Hardin needs to get a job if she wants to make money, Hagan needs to take some dog training classes and Rolo needs to find a safe home out of Arvada with or without Hagan.
February 25, 2008
6:33 p.m.
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BTP writes:
Is Ms. Hagan's second attorney also pro bono?
Its amazing and a bit far fetched that on the heels of various fund raisers, bank accounts, songs about the situation, the proceeds of which are all going to the defendant, two attorneys, a dog trainer and a kennel are all doing this for free. If all these people and resources are free, where is all the donation money going?
Is the victim really the one who is an opportunist and out for money?
February 25, 2008
6:35 p.m.
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mark79trans writes:
It is interesting how some people deny the characteristics of dogs and blame the owners for upbringing. I can't remember the name, but some person on here said their Pit was the friendliest dog because that is how they trained the dog...I 100% guarantee that this dog would hunt in a pack given the chance. As someone who breeds dogs, so many of their traits and temperament comes down through the breeding process. Herding dogs don't retrieve on the hunt very well. Hunting dogs don't herd. Sled dogs don't do either. Some dog breeds don't do much of anything, and rank pretty low on the intelligence scale. Furthermore, the German Shepherd dog was so poorly breed in the United States that there are a lot of really screwed up German Shepherds out there so not all GSDs are equal, and there are those of us committed to rebuilding the them through the breeding process. My female is 100% German bloodline (a pure working dog) and my male is 90%. I wouldn't buy and definitely not breed an American bloodline GSD because they are of such poor quality. People are so caught up in dogs being cute and part of the family that they forget that dogs are instinctive creatures descended from a line of predators...they breeding process has made dogs with certain characteristics One must understand what their responsibilities are and their dog's natural instincts. I would not sell a GSD pup to a person or family unless they knew what they were getting into. If they are buying because the puppy is cute, then they need to go back and do some research.
This case is so ridiculous. Rolo's owner screwed up and I think she knows that, but it was blown completely out of proportion. If Rolo was indeed dangerous, he would have killed this women and her child in a very short period of time...a male GSD is an incredibly fast, agile, powerful animal that exerts more the 300lbs of bite force. The neighbors who are so very scared are just as ignorant as a Pit Bull owner who denies their dog's prey instinct. It seems as though people are incredibly emotional and just plain ignorant. Anyhow, put the dog on probation, fine the owner, shed a tear for the helpless victim (give her a copy of Dogs for Dummies so she doesn't get hysterical again), and lets move on.
February 25, 2008
6:41 p.m.
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mark79trans writes:
Quote
"Posted by jax i think this whole case is ridiculous...Rolo was offered a new home at a dog sanctuary in Utah but the CITY ATTORNEY denied this option, among others that would have provided a satisfactory resolution to this fiasco and saved some tax payer dollars. This isn't even about Hagan and Hardin any longer, it's about the City of Arvada trying to prove a point and I think it's disgusting. Hardin needs to get a job if she wants to make money, Hagan needs to take some dog training classes and Rolo needs to find a safe home out of Arvada with or without Hagan."
I Agree. What is wrong with Arvada? This seems like a pretty weak case to use for making a point.
February 25, 2008
6:44 p.m.
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GWM writes:
Heidi, you were not here for me today. I got out of control. Save me!
February 25, 2008
6:53 p.m.
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Heidi writes:
GWM, I decided to let you represent my opinions. You saved me from getting angry.
Save Rolo!
Actually, I was thinking that maybe they could just pull all of Rolo's teeth out and make a necklace out of them for Hardin.
February 25, 2008
8:24 p.m.
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gunner writes:
rickg19611 you are about the biggest idiot I think I have ever read on these forums -- and there are plenty of idiots to go around, let me tell you. You sir, are the biggest. How dare you compare a superficial bite wound to Auschwitz. You, sir, are a cad.
February 25, 2008
8:41 p.m.
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heartfelt writes:
I came up with 7 1/2 months of therapy, not 9...
BTP: The fees at TMAC, fees first legal counsel, fines, restitution, all add up... can't you or Hardin do Math ???
February 25, 2008
9:53 p.m.
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LS writes:
BTP, that woman conned all those (probably) well-meaning people into donating to her cause to cover bills she could have avoided if she paid closer attention to her pets. Interesting that this story brings up TWO large dogs. I don't recall reading that before. However, many supporters claim the woman paid her fines and whatever, the boarding and training is free supposedly, as is the attorney. I agree, the dog owner is definitely the biggest opportunist in this picture. So if you want to bring up the math, it clearly is what it is.
Don't kill the dog, but sure as hell let the jury find against whats-her-name and get this BS over with, once and for all.
February 25, 2008
9:57 p.m.
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DBCMom writes:
YES the other attorney is also Pro Bono. YES, lots of people have come to Rolo's aid...FREE of charge because they see this in NOT a vicious dog. Hagan does NOT have Arvada's unlimited funds (like investigators, expert witnesses, special signs made up telling spectator where to stand, police espcorts, police cars blocking cars from PUbLIC access areas.) What she does have are people who care to save the life of an animal that has served more than enough time. Expenses...try $10 a day for the 6 mos. incarceration, and all other expenses incured by a trial (city does't pay for hers.) It will take her years to recover.
Who is paying for the PERSONAL INJURY attorney that is meeting with Hardin outside of the courtroom before and after every piece of testamony? Why a PERSONAL INJURY attorney?
Hummm is money the motivator that made the 'pain' appear a day later...when her husband went and MEASURED the distance the dog allegedly came? Why professional photos....why reject Hagans inital offer of payment for medical expenses? BIG BUCKS, maybe. An animal has to die so someone can move out of the tiny house in Arvada to ???? Keep an eye on this one, people....wait and see the lawsuit that is coming for a scratch on the butt. That is going to be one rich butt, if she keeps playing the role. Give Hardin her due...for a mother who admits her 14 mo old was out front playing ALONE while she was in drinking coffee, she worked real hard at being the concerned mom. To bad she wasn't that concerned when she was allowing the little guy to be walking across the street BEHIND her and didn't pick him up until after whe saw the dogs in their own driveway. (A child she said was just learning to walk...maybe parenting classes are in order her.)
Also, has anyone asked why NINE months of THERAPY for an insident that happened less than SEVEN months ago? Just wondering what the earlier two months of therapy was for??? Paranoia or Acting?
February 25, 2008
10:18 p.m.
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LS writes:
This whole mess could have been avoided IF only Rolo and his buddy had been properly supervised, read: were not roaming loose in the front yard that day, or any other day. I feel sorry for the dog and the dog only.
Whats-her-name wouldn't be reviled and blamed for her irresponsibility and poor pet-ownership skills at the hands of her neighbors and dozens of strangers, as well as winding up in debt taking years to recover from (if that is really true, not sure I believe that). The other woman wouldn't have been bitten and then having every aspect of her life, mothering decisions and motivation attacked by strangers on Internet discussion boards and via hate mail.
Fact is people do stupid stuff every day. And just seeing the amount of comments this story has generated, the rest of us are just itching to pass judgment and attack others' opinions instead of offering constructive dialog and to see an opportunity to learn something for ourselves. Retread is right on the money. If only people could settle their differences between themselves.
February 25, 2008
11:58 p.m.
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getfacts writes:
Check this out: (nothing to do with what should happen to Rolo, but pertaining to dogs and/or victimization) My boy was 2. He has eaten the insides out of a roll, and put his hand into it. We are on a fenced in patio at a Cafe. To leave, we have to pass a very large german shepard. Looks like a nice dog and probably is. Except, he sees something delicious to eat within his reach. He opens his mouth and chomps down on the roll that contains my little childs hand. I instinctively reach out and grab the dogs eyeballs. No screaming for me, protection, immediately. Lucky for my boy, I felt the dogs eyes rolling as he would not let go the bread, finally with enough pressure he does. Someone sweeps my son up then as I prepare to kick the sh## out of the dog if he attacks. Someone else gets between me and the dog. Had the dog, or any person, attacked my boy, I wouldn't hesitate to create any amount of pain to protect him to the point of death. I know nothing about dogs, don't have one, like them, love animals in general, hate to think of any of them being put down, especially undomesticated ones. But if my boy would be hurt I would do whatever I had to to protect him. The baby in the Rolo story lives next door! Don't attack the woman for how she behaves. You never know what you will do when your child or you is attacked. You may think you do, but you don't, I had no idea I would grab a dog by the eyeballs! Another time, my boy falls on his back getting out of the car (ten years old), a speeding car comes around the corner, I jump in front of it, almost sending the driver into the car on the other side, barely miss getting smashed myself. The driver starts to swear at me, till he looks down and sees the boy, a look of horror -as to what he almost accidently sped over- crosses his face.
POINT: Stop suing one another and start acting. Stop blaming and take responsibility for your actions or non actions. Sit down and talk things over. Work out the best solution together. Then get online and start talking about things that we need to get upset about, like the destruction of the planet through war and consumption.
February 26, 2008
2:54 a.m.
Suggest removal
happymike44 writes:
I don't know the whole story,I just want you to know what happened to me and my German Sheperd.I brought my mine home,before I moved