DPS, teachers union dispute: Two teachers, two perspectives
Rocky Mountain News
Published August 20, 2008 at 9:02 a.m.
Updated August 21, 2008 at 1:43 a.m.
Photo by Linda Mcconnell © Special To The Rocky
Science teacher Margaret Bobb talks about the atom at East High School. She is in her 17th year of teaching with DPS and holds a master's degree in geology.
Photo by Linda Mcconnell © Special To The Rocky
English teacher Ben Jackson talks with Meliza Paiva, right, as Larissa Orona, left, and Jaqueline Torres stand nearby at Bruce Randolph School in Denver.
Margaret Bobb and Ben Jackson are passionate teachers, union supporters and former co-workers. They want a settlement in the ongoing contract dispute between Denver Public Schools and its teachers union - but they disagree on the best way to get there.
ProComp, the groundbreaking pay plan that rewards teachers for improving student achievement, working in high-poverty schools and honing their professional skills, is at the heart of the disagreement. Here's how these teachers see the dispute:
Margaret Bobb
* Science teacher at East High School
Age: 45
Experience: In her 17th year of teaching in Denver Public Schools
Education: Master's degree in geology from the University of Colorado
Current salary: $71,118
What's included: A bonus of $1,067 for teaching in 2007-08 at Bruce Randolph, a school considered hard-to-serve in north Denver. Permanent increases for a satisfactory evaluation, completing professional training annually and achieving student growth objectives in prior years.
How long do you plan to teach? At least ten more years, through age 55.
History with ProComp: Initially skeptical about the plan but convinced it was the best way to get more money to Denver teachers, Bobb voluntarily joined in January 2006.
Where she stands on the current pay dispute: Favors the union plan.
Why: I oppose the DPS plan because it limits the career earnings of new teachers. The district plan will result in Denver becoming a training ground for new teachers who get their big bucks early on. They'll leave for the suburbs around their tenth year to earn a professional salary, like the one I currently have and earned under the current ProComp system.
Under the union plan, with a 3.5 percent cost-of-living increase, my base salary would be $90,215 after 31 years or $92,495 if I earned one bonus. Under the DPS plan, which includes a 2.8 percent increase but adds more bonuses, I would get $80,675 if I earned two bonuses.
What difference it makes: A new teacher with a base salary of $35,564 will only have a base salary of $55,173 after 31 years of teaching under the DPS plan. With two bonuses, or the average they're likely to earn according to DPS, that's $61,000. After 31 years in Aurora, the same teacher would earn $74,000. Why gamble on bonuses when, in other districts, you know your salary is predictable and professional? Teachers will figure this out and leave Denver. Ultimately, students are the ones who suffer the consequences of teacher turnover.
Why focus so far ahead? I haven't been able to put money into my own retirement system because I've been paying the bills. I started with a salary of $24,000. I have been expecting and banking on the fact I will have a defined benefits pension plan to pay my retirement. That was one of the reasons I opted into ProComp. It was sold to us as, this will allow you to achieve a professional salary.
What about turnover among newer teachers? The whole dream of ProComp originally was, keep teachers in teaching by offering them a professional salary that recognizes their performance. If we want to change the salary structure - moving salary-building increases out of the back end, or later years, into the front end in bonuses - then every district needs to do that. Or you're going to kill the district that tries it first. Are we creating a system where we're satisfied with new teachers coming to Denver, working for 10 years and then leaving?
Ben Jackson
* English teacher at Bruce Randolph School
Age: 23
Experience: In his second year of teaching in Denver Public Schools
Education: Bachelor's degree in English from the University of Colorado
Current salary: $36,279
What's included: A bonus for teaching at Bruce Randolph, a high-poverty school. Permanent increases for receiving a satisfactory evaluation, completing professional training and achieving student growth objectives in his first year.
How long do you plan to teach? I can safely say that I have committed to education, especially in urban districts, for the rest of my life in some capacity.
History with ProComp: Jackson, like all teachers hired after January 2006, was required to join.
Where he stands on the pay dispute: Favors the district proposal with modifications.
Why? I think we need a settlement immediately because that's what best for kids in Denver. I can't say I endorse one proposal or the other completely. In theory, I think the idea of getting teachers more money in their hands earlier in their careers is one thing we need to do in order to solve our problems of teacher retention in urban districts.
What difference it makes: Under the DPS proposal, which includes a 2.8 percent cost-of-living increase, his salary would increase to $40,194 this year. That includes a bonus of $2,899 for continuing to work in a hard-to- serve school.
What about the union plan: Running his salary through the union calculator, which only spits out numbers after 31 years of experience, shows he would end his career at $76,989 under the union proposal, which includes a 3.5 percent cost-of-living increase, and $60,738 under the DPS proposal. Those numbers assume he continues to work in a hard-to- staff school and would qualify for at least one new DPS bonus.
Doesn't that future number matter? If you look at the union proposal, it focuses on teachers and their compensation 30 years down the road. And that's 28 years away for me. We need to get money in teachers' hands sooner in their careers, especially in the current economy.
Won't some teachers look at those numbers and leave? I doubt it. Teachers are currently leaving at an alarming rate because it takes so long to reach a decent wage as a teacher. Other new teachers in the district have told me the opportunity of making more money now actually makes them think about staying longer than they had anticipated.
Which is why I think it's important to make sure we reward them for their hard work now. Especially when you're doing the difficult work our teachers are doing in Denver. We are pouring out hearts into our work. We work long hours. To be rewarded for that sooner is beneficial for our district's teachers.
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August 20, 2008
9:23 a.m.
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youme writes:
Down with Teachers unions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 20, 2008
9:56 a.m.
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vudumom writes:
A parent should NEVER be brought into union negotiations. Handing out fliers at school is WRONG!!
School should be a place for learning, not a place to deal with teacher's personal problems.
The 1st paragraph of this news story speaks volumes.
August 20, 2008
10 a.m.
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LingLingfor_prez writes:
Yeah, great timing as the school year has started. Did they ponder over this the whole summer or were they too busy complaining about lack of vacation?
August 20, 2008
10:22 a.m.
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PI writes:
the last 3 bloggers need to talk to their shrinks about why they have the time and energy to blog against teachers at 9am....... I wonder if their unpopularity, buck teeth and freckles are contributing to their hatred of the very people who taught them to write and read. you morons need to go back to the Independence Institute and get your talking points straight, because blatant teacher bashing in an attempt to cover up your intelligence deficiencies ain't working. get back in the corner of the room and put on your dunce caps.....and stop trying to hang out with the cool kids because they make fun of you behind your back and are just using you for your candy money.
August 20, 2008
10:55 a.m.
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timeandagain writes:
Teachers -
Guess what? If you don't like your job/pay/benefits/vacation time/etc. YOU CAN QUIT AND FIND ANOTHER JOB!!! That is the great American way!!! Stop holding our kids hostage!!!
QUIT AND FIND ANOTHER JOB!!!
August 20, 2008
11:06 a.m.
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jacka writes:
YES on Amendment for K12 Reform.
47 will lower Unions political power that blocks K12 reform and graduates <70% of high schoolers.
47 for the rest of Colorado's public employees.
The Governor gave Right-to-Work to state employees, if teachers had this Right then we might begin to curb the $300 million unions dump into political influence.
Anytime these districts and parents want reform there we find the union saying 'no'.
30%+ drop out rate, thanks union bosses!
August 20, 2008
11:21 a.m.
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Cowboy63 writes:
I do agree with vudumom.
DPS and the Union need to conduct negotiations on their own time and handing out flyers while parents are trying to drop off their kids is out of line.
Do your job.
August 20, 2008
12:51 p.m.
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vudumom writes:
I guess in PI's world it's okay to ask your customers in your workplace to ask your boss for a pay raise? How would you like it if everytime you went to a place of business the employees handed you a flyer and tried to solicit your support for a pay raise?
August 20, 2008
1:06 p.m.
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Mayor_Quimby writes:
I blame the parents. Why are they sending their kids to Denver Public Schools in the first place? That should count as child negligence.
August 20, 2008
1:17 p.m.
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timeandagain writes:
PI's world is a dark and angry place. A place where bitter people reign and disenchantment abounds... It is not a place we want to contemplate.
And you know what is really scary? I am willing to bet that PI is a DPS teacher that is charged with the care and education of children...
Find another line of work PI. It is time...
August 20, 2008
1:21 p.m.
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PI writes:
I guess in vudumoms world its okay for the school board and superintendant to negotiate the contract publicly with the help of John Temple, making sure to focus the argument on spin tactics, false numbers and union bashing. DPS Administration controls the media because all of these so called democrats are nothing more than businessmen who used to be frat brothers and they don't give 2 **its about denver's kids but instead want to have a resume builder so that they can one day be powerful. As a parent of a DPS student, I don't mind if the teachers want to give me a flyer so that I can hear their side of the story, lord knows you ain't gonna get the real story from any news outlets in this city. Vudumom is still bitter that her mom sent her to school with dried cat food for lunch and the other kids heckled her, the rest of the bloggers on this site had to join the ROTC to find friends and now travel to Colorado Springs every weekend to solidify their perceived holier than thou bond with JC.
August 20, 2008
1:31 p.m.
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PI writes:
Time and again, your back! I thought I scared you back to the Independence Institute last time you reared your bald sun damaged head. Your world is full of angry conservatives that live shadowy lives on the internet and pretend to be open minded people. It is a place where busting unions, drilling for oil, being homophobic and being critical of anything that you can get your beady old eyes on is considered a great day. You know whats really sad, I bet that timeandagain was picked on as a kid for being pigeon toed and wall-eyed and now spends his days bashing illegal immigrants and public education on the internet to feel better about himself and his ugly wife who wears a bonnet and doesn't talk back.
August 20, 2008
1:41 p.m.
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BetterEducated writes:
Actually, I do agree with PI's (low) assessment of DPS administrators.
August 20, 2008
1:49 p.m.
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Hambone writes:
Have teachers become that bad since I was in school? I don't think so. I didn't have to be in a room inundated with non-english speakers or mental morons incapable of basic skills. hmmmm
August 20, 2008
1:55 p.m.
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LingLingfor_prez writes:
PI is probably that old goat kinda teacher that went 20 years past their expiration date.
August 20, 2008
2 p.m.
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PI writes:
Ling Ling, tell your overweight mother to stop coming over my house and breaking furniture, you and timeandagain are the old finger peckers who whear humongous dark sunglasses to shield your old eyes from the sun, you smell like ben gay and moth balls and haven't been in piublic school since the suffrage movement.
August 20, 2008
2:06 p.m.
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BO writes:
jacka-
And the actual kids dropping out of school aren't at all to blame? What about their parents- no blame there, either? Drugs, alcohol, pregnancy, single/ no parent homes, gangs, violence- none of that is to blame for dropouts?
Care to respond? Probably not. Just easier to blame teachers and look the other way, instead of dealing with those problems.
August 20, 2008
3:21 p.m.
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chard writes:
I am a DPS teacher and as much as I regret the need for a union, it it the only reason we get any decent treatment from the people managing this district.
We have multi-million dollar programs rolled out one after the other, but my kids dont have books to take home. We do mandated testing for 16 hours each year on 3rd graders, and 18 hours on 8th graders. The new "Benchmark" testing program takes away 2 full weeks of our instructional time...and guess what we learn...that our students need more instruction! In sum, the district administration will pour money into these kinds of programs while neglecting the basics, like class size, serious discipline to keep the classroom a learning environment, and teacher pay.
Getting another job is exactly what most competent teachers are doing. They are fleeing DPS because the pay ranks 46th out of all states, just above Mississippi the last time I checked. The district is hemmoraging new teachers because the job has become intolerable. The administration solution is to take the pay increases from senior teachers and give them to new teachers as bonuses--the idea being that senior teachers have too much vested in their pensions to quit.
Teachers need both a 4 year college degree and a teaching certificate, which usually takes 2 more years. Many teachers also have a masters degree, which means 2-3 years of additional work if they want to move up the pay scale.
The system is in shambles. We have an incompetent adminstration making it impossible for hard working teachers to get the job done. Its easy to blame the teaches because they are mostly too busy and too poor to do much about speaking up for themselves. We don't like the union either, but we are sick of getting screwed over while we see one silly program/testing regime after another get bought and paid for by our tax dollars.
August 20, 2008
3:32 p.m.
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jacka writes:
Response to BO:
Teachers shouldn't be forced to join the union or pay dues that go to stop school reform.
People have the moral right to freely associate, maybe the law should protect that right.
Unions block school reform, that is a fact!
YES on 47 to stop union pressure on all teachers!
August 20, 2008
4:33 p.m.
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timeandagain writes:
PI is a DPS teacher. Just get a new job PI... It is real simple. GO OUT AND GET A JOB THAT YOU ENJOY AND TREATS YOU FAIRLY.
August 20, 2008
4:51 p.m.
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BO writes:
jacka-
I didn't think so, but I'll play along.
Lets go with your view. Teachers no longer have to join a union (BTW- When I taught, I never had to join a union. I joined a local teachers association, mainly because if I was ever falsely accused of misconduct by a student just because he/ she didn't like the grade they received, my lawyer would be paid for-yes, it happens). Lets say unions block school reform, and they have been done away with. There are no more teachers unions. Please explain how any of that affects the reasons listed that cause dropouts (drugs, alcohol, lack of proper guidance at home, violence, gangs, students' own accountability, etc.). What ownership do the student and their parents have?
August 20, 2008
4:51 p.m.
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groovygrrl writes:
Just to clear a few things up:
1. Parents weren't "brought in" to negotiations. They could choose to take information or not.
2. Teachers were not handing out fliers at school. They were on the sidewalks, on public property.
3. Teachers were not doing this on school time. They were doing it on their own time, before their report time.
4. Teachers are not forced to join the union. It is a teacher's choice.
August 20, 2008
9:37 p.m.
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timeandagain writes:
groovygrrl -
as a DPS teacher, you need to stop holding the children hostage for your own gain... just quit and get a new job! people do it all the time when they are unhappy. just do it! best of luck...
August 21, 2008
11:15 p.m.
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jacka writes:
BO, then you can let the teachers kick the parents and students asses and protect the teachers with legislation that allows them to kick some as s.
YES on Amendment 47 to curb union political power.
August 24, 2008
9:33 a.m.
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always_thinking writes:
DPS used district funds to send home flyers to all parents of DPS.
There have been 4 different superintendents in the last 10 years.
It is unfortunate that, as the teachers of Denver try to defend the publicly funded system from whimsical fiscal mismanagement and schemes, many people bash the teachers for trying. They don’t want a new job, they want to defend your tax dollars from fleeting 3-year administration regimes and their counterintuitive, counter-pedagogical practices.
DPS has the highest turnover rate in the metro area (and teaching has one of the highest turnover rates among all occupations). ‘Time and Again’ apparently doesn’t realize that this is the problem they want to fix. Maybe we could all use to look into the psychology of those who are able to stick it out.
Please take a moment to reread ‘Chard’s’ posting.
Unions don’t create drop out rates – society does. Do just a little research into drop-outs and the psychology behind their choices and you will find that teachers unions advocate for sound policy to counteract those pitfalls.
Lastly, negotiations started in March or April. The district came with a very hard-lined ‘first and last offer’-quite disingenuous. The contract happens to be up September first, so now is the time all comes to a head. We all would be happy to have this stuff resolved over the summer.
COME, TEACH, PLEASE. You’ll see.
August 24, 2008
9:39 a.m.
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always_thinking writes:
. . . and to all of you straight union bashers and unbridled capitalists:
If you’re mad at being at a place of employment which has a union, go somewhere else. . . .isnt that your 'market force' right?
People with power and control wield it to their own ends. Those with less power, band together as the many, to defend themselves against the abuses of the powerful few. The founding fathers of this country used just such an argument as they convened the First Continental Congress.
with freedom comes responsibility, with power comes abuse.
unbridled capitalism caused the mortgage crash and Enron. . . and . . .
August 25, 2008
9:22 a.m.
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jennabelrios writes:
Telling teachers to Quit........What is wrong with you?! Then who will teach our kids? Your kids? I am tired of the educational system being all about the adults. Yes it is important that teachers be treated fairly and there is a huge problem with teacher retention.
But I can not help but question how many of these teachers get so frustrated with how political the teachers union has become, with how focused the union and and school administrators are on the adults in the system, so focused that the children and their educational needs are not even in the picture, that they do take some ones uneducated and very stupid advise and quit.
Teachers hold the future of all of us in their hands. These kids are our future decision makers. If they can not compete in todays global world where does that leave our country 20 years from now?
Education is about the children. PERIOD. It is about us being able to provide them with the ability to create and sustain the best possible future for all of us. It is not just the teachers union or the teachers responsibility. It is not even just the parents responsibility. It is the responsibility of all citizens.
Yes people, it is time to wake up. For the last fifty years or so, our decision makers have kind of been sleep walking through all of our world changes while the rest of the world has managed to keep up the pace.
So they try to continue to fool everyone and themselves with a bunch of happy talk. We will be hearing a lot of that with the elections now in full swing. But, once in office, if they drop the ball we have only ourselves to blame if we do not hold them accountable and make them follow through and deliver.
We are in a lot of trouble economically as a nation and the only way it will get any better is through education. We need to support our teachers in every way possible.
NOT BASH THEM AND TELL THEM TO F**K OFF AND LOOK FOR ANOTHER JOB!!!