Coloradans divided over impact of immigration on state

By Burt Hubbard, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Published August 20, 2008 at 9:14 p.m.

Text size

More Local News

Comments

August 20, 2008

10:44 p.m.

Suggest removal

clyde writes:

The headline should read, "Are we going to be a Nation of Laws, or a Nation of Emotions?" There is really nothing more to it. If you don't like immigration laws, then change them. Otherwise, enforce them. That goes for Denver's new towing ordinace, too.
August 20, 2008

10:50 p.m.

Suggest removal

jacka writes:

Most of us have some immigrant blood. The issue is illegal immigration, social costs and crime caused by illegal immigration.

As capitalist America we respect the immigrant for wanting to come here, increase their personal wealth and the Colorado state GDP (legal earnings and profits with a low tax burden).

Without legal immigration Colorado will not grow and prosper. A sustainable and lawful process must be followed.

While we debate changes in the law, let us enforce the law.
August 20, 2008

10:54 p.m.

Suggest removal

Brittanicus writes:

Yes! It's what they call enforcement. It's the Federal SAVE ACT (H.R.4088)enforcement only bill. If your an employer and your are hiring illegal immigrants, instead of citizens or legal residents YOU WILL TO PRISON. No half-measures, no exceptions. Will take your ill-gotten business assets, heavily fine you and you end up in prison for at least five years. Your parasites that dumps your illegal hires on the health care system, for taxpayers to support.

Your a pariah business where ICE should sweep with the feds, on your company that is exploiting cheap labor, instead of paying living wages for the legal population. Your the predatory businesses who have attracted the poverty of third world countries to improve your profits, on the backs of the hurting working class. Ice has a free tip-line: 1-866-347-2423 for intelligence to locate illegal aliens, or predatory businesses that employ them. USE IT! Join NUMBERSUSA, CAPSWEB to learn about the illegal immigration invasion and irreversible OVERPOPULATION.
August 20, 2008

10:58 p.m.

Suggest removal

timeandagain writes:

yes. please don't pander to this silly RMN spin.
YOU KNOW HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS ISSUE!!!
if you are aware of illegals, please call 1-866-347-2423 and REPORT THEM... Do not let our borders be ignored...they are the fundamental defining element of our country.
August 20, 2008

11:20 p.m.

Suggest removal

luevano writes:

Colorado has always been a racist state. I believe that the more immigrants willing to come and work the better it is for the state. There always is a way for the government to regulate something. This country was stolen in the first place so maybe we should ask the true owners of this land (Native Americans) about how they want to handle this issue.
August 20, 2008

11:21 p.m.

Suggest removal

reddog writes:

I'm figuring 42% are illeagals or mexicans
August 20, 2008

11:49 p.m.

Suggest removal

Buzzm1 writes:

THERE WILL BE NO AMNESTY!!!

OUR ACCEPTABLE IMMIGRATION REFORM

#1. Secure the Border!!!
#2. Mandate E-Verify for ALL Employees!!!
#3. Mandate E-Verify for ANY Benefit!!!
#4. Stop the Underground Economy!!!
#5. End Birthright Citizenship for Illegals!!!
......and make it retroactive!!!
#6. End Chain Migration!!!
#7. Make English our Official Language!!!
#8. Cut Off Federal Funds to Sanctuary Cities!!

NOTHING MORE!!! NOTHING LESS!!!
August 20, 2008

11:53 p.m.

Suggest removal

Buzzm1 writes:

State by State listing of House Of Representative members
http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW_...
Links to State Legislatures
http://www.fvap.gov/links/legislative...
State and Local Government on the Net
http://www.statelocalgov.net/50states...
State Legislatures, State Laws and State Regulations - Web Site Links and Telephone Numbers
http://llsdc.net/sourcebook/state-leg...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Immigration Legislation - Automatically Send emails, letters, faxes to your representatives
CAPPS Immigration Issues
http://capwiz.com/caps/issues/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NumbersUSA Action - free faxes
http://www.numbersusa.com/actionbuffet
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOLL FREE Congressional Switchboard Numbers
800-833-6354
866-340-9281
877-762-8762
866-808-0065
888-355-3588
866-220-0044
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
suspicious activity??
1-866 DHS 2ICE.
1-866-347-2423
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report Employers/Employees
Internal Revenue Service (IRS) fraud/criminal investigations number is 1-800-829-0433
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reportillegals.com
Report employers of illegals
http://www.wehirealiens.com/AddEmploy...
August 21, 2008

midnight

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Immigration isn't bad for our state.
The flood of illiterate, unskilled and often criminal illegal immigrants is.
Why, oh why can we not keep the ideas separate in our heads.
And as to the idea that Colorado is a racist state....what?
This entire country is suffering the effects of unchecked illegal immigration. Our nation only has two land borders, and the Canadians aren't sneaking accross in anywhere near the numbers that Mexicans are.
The vast majority of illegal crossings occur at the southern border. That's Mexico. The illegals from Mexico are Mexicans.
Why is it racist to say what country they are from, and to ask them to go back untill they can prove they have something to offer? I'd ask the same of any immigrant, legal or not.
Illegal immigration is good for Mexico. But that's about it.
Slavery is not ok. Exploitation is not ok. Extortion is not ok. If you are an illegal this is the treatment you can likely expect from the folks who offer you housing and jobs.
If you want a better life, stay home and create change there.
If you want to be supportive of illegals, send them home by cutting off their access to slave wages and slums.
August 21, 2008

1:47 a.m.

Suggest removal

theairdog writes:

luevano writes: "Blah, blah, blah....This country was stolen in the first place so maybe we should ask the true owners of this land (Native Americans) about how they want to handle this issue."

I thought we bought it for $24 worth of beads?
August 21, 2008

4:43 a.m.

Suggest removal

18Zwife writes:

Here on Ft. Carson there are hundreds of illegal aliens (mostly Mexican) hired by DoD contractors/sub-contractors. Calling ICE yields NO results.
August 21, 2008

5:43 a.m.

Suggest removal

mrfxx writes:

theairdog writes: "I thought we bought it for $24 worth of beads?" You almost got it right - Manhattan Island (not the entire country) was bought for $24 worth of beads.

Just out of curiousity - has a survey ever been done that included a way to separate out whether the folks who are pro ILLEGAL immigration (since I believe the vast majority of us are pro LEGAL immigration) just happen to be ILLEGAL employers, while the antis are the folks who have lost jobs to illegals, have seen neighborhoods devolve into slums, been in an accident with an uninsured illegal, etc?

This has nothing to do racism. The fact is that while at last count about 85% of illegals are from south of the border (roughly 50% from Mexico, another 35% or so from other countries south of the US), for the last 5 years or so, Mexicans have been the highest number of legal immigrants - and are absolutely welcome. Mexico isn't going to do a thing about the issue, since remittances sent "home" by both legal and illegal immigrants is Mexico's 2nd largest "cash crop" (oil is first). The intriguing thing is that if the US was as harsh on illegals as Mexico is on the illegals in Mexico, people would really be screaming - but of course, since Mexico is only discriminating against folks from south of their border, the "racist card" can't be played.

Until the current waiting list of the 3-8 million folks (depends on which site you check out) who are attempting to come here from all countries (these are just the folks who have already passed all the security checks), how can we allow folks breaking the law to "leapfrog" in line? How is that not a slap in the face to the folks who are attempting to do the right thing? And if these folks are allowed amnesty (which worked so well when Reagan did it that the US went from having about 3 million illegals to having the 12-20 million - again depending on the site and best guesses), does that mean the current illegals would be happy to see illegals from Asia, the Middle East, Africa and Europe flocking here - or (more likely) are the current illegals the only ones to get preferential treatment?
August 21, 2008

6:03 a.m.

Suggest removal

MyThreeSons952 writes:

What about the companies that outsource jobs to India and other countries? They are actually taking away good paying jobs and paying far less than minimum wage to people from other countries. That should be illegal also. Mexicans do do the jobs no one else wants to do. Agriculture has a hard time finding people to work for them. If they increase the pay then they have to increase the price of their product, a lot of people can barely afford food now as it is. So if you want to pay $15 for a 5 lb bag of potatoes then go ahead and close the borders.
August 21, 2008

6:16 a.m.

Suggest removal

Hambone writes:

Yeah, without illegal southern immigrants we wouldn't have such a great variety of taquerias, carnicerias, pastelerias, check cashing businesses and my favorite, the guy pushing the cart loaded with corn and chile. What a loss! Oh, and my insurance might go down with all the uninsured drivers in their somehow affordable Escalade and their last name gaudily scripted across the back window.
August 21, 2008

6:18 a.m.

Suggest removal

roger44 writes:

LUEVANO: This country was not stolen from anyone, Indians came across the Bering straits from Mongolia and other areas near there, DNA proves that. So get off that subject. it costs the taxpayers 340 billion dollars a year to support illegals. Costs the average worker in lower wages, Crimes cost, remember the rape of 12 yr old in Greeley recently by illegal? Insurance more because they don't have it, welfare, health care, check the numbers of illegals having babies in parkland hospital in Dallas, 44 a day, free to them, but not us, we pay for that. get your heads out of the sand and look at it without emotion. They need to enforce the law, instead of sitting on their duffs.
August 21, 2008

6:36 a.m.

Suggest removal

Mike846 writes:

Another pandering, pro-illegal spin placed on the issue by the RMN. The economic effects of illegal aliens flooding the country are well-documented. But you won't read about it anywhere in this city. Voters need to send clear messages and vote every chance they get to throw out politicians who support this illegal activity. They need to report illegals every chance they get, whether ICE does anything or not. They are driving down wages, using social services and health care funds to the detriment of CITIZENS and, if the open borders crowd has their way, they'll be able to vote. Then we'll become Los Angeles East, with chickens and goats living in residential neighborhoods (look it up, if you don't believe me), bankrupt hospitals (see: California) and a populace that is illiterate in Spanish and have no incentive to ever learn English. Wake up folks, you're being played with these stories designed to show how YOU feel. Mike
August 21, 2008

6:57 a.m.

Suggest removal

BikerChick writes:

..
Perception rules the roost. Projection makes perception.

We will only turn the ship with common-sense logic and sticktuitiveness.

Our immigration laws, enacted many years ago by the U S Congress, exist for three primary reasons;
1. To protect U S jobs for legal U S residents.
2. To protect U S citizens from diseases in third-world nations.
3. To protect U S citizens from criminals in third-world nations.

The Entitlement Society is a balloon, held aloft by the tooth-fairy.

The 800,000 adult illegal aliens now mostly fully-employed in Colorado benefit by timing - the idealists see choo-choo trains and multiculturalism as romantic. Romantics fail to see the NET COSTS, such as 80,000 CRIMINAL ALIENS mixed in with the nice peasants. They also fail to see the one billion lined-up to come here too.

The media keeps the balloon afloat. It won't last. WE CANNOT AFFORD THE LARGESSE.

Economic recession is caused, in-part, by our largesse. We have just-and-sufficient immigration laws for a reason. The time to return to Law-and-Order is upon us NOW.
..
August 21, 2008

7:08 a.m.

Suggest removal

blacksho89 writes:

"divided over illegal immigration, with a third believing it had a major impact, a third a minor impact and a third saying it had not much impact at all."

I call biased reporting!

Let's rearrange that sentence, shall we?

"Two thirds believe illegal immigration has at least a minor impact, and nearly all agree that it has some impact."

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. RMN: Give me the raw data, and save the "analysis" for the editorial page.
August 21, 2008

7:26 a.m.

Suggest removal

Billy writes:

To Wow: It is true, caucasian people don't commit any crimes at all in Colo. It is all the illegal immigrants But wait, the caucasian people won't do the work the immigrants do. They would never bee seen digging a ditch for fear their neighbors might see them getting dirty. They would never be seen working in a garden for little pay, after all, that's why they hire minorities. And I do agree with luevano, Colorado has always been a racist state, now it will just get worse. But there is a light at the end of this tunnel, in 2042, the caucasian will be the minority in the U.S.
August 21, 2008

7:30 a.m.

Suggest removal

NotUrFriend writes:

Well,

Being I'm a 1st generation 2nd son of an immigrant father from Mexico, I'm softer than alot of people on the immigration issue. I do draw the line at illegal immigration and think, except in some circumstances, the person should be immediately deported. We can not let emotions conquer our reasonable and just laws regarding this issue.

We can not grow weak nor contemptful about this issue. When a nation loses its courage and strength in standing up for its laws and culture...that nation is on a one way slid to oblivion.

I.
August 21, 2008

7:35 a.m.

Suggest removal

SanctuaryCity writes:

The illegals are a downside to the state of Colorado & the nation. Crime is up because of them. The costs to taxpayers thoughout the country is in excess of $330 billion. They will never contribute to society as they are low income scum. If our worthless politicians pass an amnesty bill, they will get earned income credits & child tax credits at income tax time for another $10,000 a family at the americans expense in addition to other entitlements.

Its about time people, we need change to prevent the deteriation of america from these street vendors. For centurys they failed in their country and they are trying to bring it north at our expense
August 21, 2008

7:39 a.m.

Suggest removal

denverone writes:

This whole debate is absurd. Just enforce the laws already on the books and be done with it!
August 21, 2008

7:58 a.m.

Suggest removal

freedomfighter1 writes:

WOW
I don't think any Canadians are sneaking over the border to live here. Why would they?
August 21, 2008

8:13 a.m.

Suggest removal

Billy writes:

Ssqred, you must not have the intelligence you seem to spout. I was responding to a certain individual who so eloquently put the illegals here are unskilled, often criminals. Maybe you yourself should do research on why the "national debt train" is in the state it is in right now. By 2042 maybe, just maybe it will be in better condition because of the influx of what is going on now. It wasn't the illegal aliens that put this country in the disarray it is in now. It was "white collar" America. You sound just like the racist minority in Colorado by trying to justify your views on immigrants. But you go ahead, believe what you spew, but also believe that America is heading for the change it needs. And the funny part, your grand-great grand childrn might be working for the people who are going to be making that change in 2042.
August 21, 2008

8:15 a.m.

Suggest removal

Billy writes:

One more thing, you need to know sarcasm when you read it. White people do commit crimes in Colo. And this is at all levels. For one who comes off sounding as an educated person you sure didn't show it by slamming my opinion.
August 21, 2008

8:21 a.m.

Suggest removal

JSeifert writes:

Colorado is not devided its socialist and Americans that are divided. If you weaken America they are the happy and thats what Illegals are doing weaking American turning us into another third world nation. If you want to live like they do in Mexico or any other South American country keep putting up with this if you want to live like Americans Kick them out and put the people that support them in Jail and start hunting down and getting rid of Drug dealers or in a couple years we will be like south America.
August 21, 2008

8:28 a.m.

Suggest removal

familyortiz writes:

Well written Clyde.
It seems that most americans are seeing only the symptoms (illegal immigrants) of the real cause of this issue, which is the mexican gov,t. not supporting their poor. If we waste effort in putting a bandaid on a cancer, we will fail. Some ideas that I think would be effective:
1) Force the mexican gov,t. to face the issue and put up funds to achieve deportation of all illegals. This is a real, positive possibility if we,
2) Displace border drug towns with work centers, on the mexican side of the border, where they can work in their own country.
3) Have a quota of immigrants that are allowed into this country, from any other one country, for each year. If surpassed, immigration from that counrty is ended for the year.

As to the article, the impact of illegals is negative on the state due to limited social resources, which are already strained. This is only one impact.
August 21, 2008

8:30 a.m.

Suggest removal

Gonzopozo writes:

I try not to be racist but this issue brings out the worst in me.

Some of my best friends are Canadian.
August 21, 2008

8:40 a.m.

Suggest removal

BigSky182 writes:

Could we at least ask the question in a fair and unbiased manner?

NO ONE thinks that "immigration" hurts the State. We are convinced that "ILLEGAL immigration" hurts the State.

Those who have a genuine desire to immigrate to the United States also have a genuine respect for our laws, our culture, and our way of life. Those immigrants follow the process already in place to become LEGAL citizens of the US.

The problems are created by those who have no respect for our laws, no desire to become actual citizens, no loyalty to OUR country, and no respect for our culture.
August 21, 2008

8:41 a.m.

Suggest removal

ActualThinker writes:

If they could find a way to successfully allow legal immigration, or a guest worker program we would be a lot more successful weeding out the criminals from those who help our economy. I dont think people realize the amount of businesses that would shut down without illegal immigration. Too many Americans think they should be paid $15/hr to cut wood or clean floors. Too many Americans are "above" almost all of the work that illegals do. There are many jobs out there that are unskilled labor jobs that they cannot hire Americans for when they try. Shut off this option and those businesses either fold, or they move their operations south of the border to get the same labor force. Either way they take the American jobs with it since they cease to exist. I have never hired an illegal in my life but looking around at my family I know at least 6 people that would lose their job because the business they work for would shut down without illegals.

If someone with no education and is unable to speak english can do the same job that you can, then you have bigger problems than illegal immigration. Personally I use my brain to make a living, I haven't ever worked with someone I suspect is illegal. We are all God's children, find a way to keep the good ones here as they provide a vital service to our economy, and get the law breakers on the other side of the fence we need to build.
August 21, 2008

8:44 a.m.

Suggest removal

The_Punnisher writes:

Bad SPIN JOB on the the headline, Rocky...

I expect a better REPORTING job and not JOURNALISM ( or INFOTAINMENT ). This is not the POST or La Prensa Norte ( My name for the San Jose Mercury News ).

If you want to see the CHANGE that the ILEGAL ALIEN problem ( AND the type of CHANGE Obama wants ), just rent and watch the movie " SOYLENT GREEN "...

This is where our country is headed.

Mexifornia has already had a taste of energy rationing.....
August 21, 2008

8:51 a.m.

Suggest removal

M2 writes:

Secure the borders! For the end of the world is coming! We will all die a terrible death at the hands of immigrants. Our nation will crumble into the seas. Fire will rain down from the heavens! Grab your guns and hop in yr pickup trucks.... let's go kill some immigrants! We have to stop this madness now while we still can.

Give me a break. Bunch of cry babies. I may have to call the Wah-bulance.
August 21, 2008

8:55 a.m.

Suggest removal

lencho_elias writes:

Don't worry all. By time Bush and the conservatives are done nobody's gonna want to come here anymore anyway!!!!!!!!!
August 21, 2008

8:56 a.m.

Suggest removal

Gonzopozo writes:

I know someone who is a die-hard Darwinist. You know, survival of the fittest, natural selection, all that stuff. You may have heard something about Darwinism following the second world war.

Anyway, he's not the least bit worried about illegals - says the problem will take care of itself via a pandemic. Only a matter of time.

Get your flu shots, folks.
August 21, 2008

8:59 a.m.

Suggest removal

coarizona writes:

Who did they poll? RMN, the readers are not swayed by boo hoo stories anymore. www.numbersusa.com is the forum to visit if you want help contacting your elected officials.
August 21, 2008

9:32 a.m.

Suggest removal

Marshdale writes:

The Rocky Mountain News could do us all a favor by reporting some real numbers and facts about the true costs of illegal immigration. I would like to know if their contribution to the economy is greater than what is removed from the economy? Does splitting their families hurt or benefit the state? Just what are the numbers for those who seek services against those who do not.
The RMN is doing us a disservice by siting a poll about what citizens think without providing some statistics that would either verify or refute our opinions. I see lots of opinion here about the issue but I don't see any real numbers. Numbers please!
August 21, 2008

9:34 a.m.

Suggest removal

Cowboy63 writes:

Opinion polls are irrelevant. Are we a nation of laws or aren't we?

Once the government sends the message that certain laws aren't worth enforcing; then the people will start deciding which laws aren't worth obeying.
August 21, 2008

9:43 a.m.

Suggest removal

Marshdale writes:

Marine Grunt Writes:

By time illegal immigrants and the liberals are done nobody's gonna want to come here anymore anyway!!!!!!!!!"

Marine Grunt; I think there are two distinct factions here. I believe you have the conservative business man who is always looking for inexpensive labor and you have the blue collar conservative who is being hurt by that. The business conservative is quiet about his/her desire for inexpensive labor so you don't hear to much from them because the less expensive the labor is, the more profit they make. On the other hand the voices of the working class conservative are heard loud and clear.
As far as the liberal agenda goes. It makes more sense to streamline the immigration process by getting these people an SSN so they do pay taxes and actualy contribute to the commons in a meaningfull way. The business man does not like this because it means he/she will have to pay unemployment, matching federal income taxes, and matching Social Security. We have a catch 22.
If we ship the undocumented labor out of the state then we have a labor shortage and the cost of comodities goes up. I'm not sure what the solution is but we need one.
August 21, 2008

9:43 a.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Billy---
I'm sorry we have to disagree.
You see no borders and no reason to worry about the effects of that policy on our economy and services. I see abused borders, a huge national debt, disregard for our laws, and disrespect for us as hosts.
You see people who don't worry about working for a pittance in the sun all day, and I see slaves.
You see a nice house in the suburbs with some hard working folks in it, I see fifteen people living in a three bedroom split level because of unscrupulous and predatory housing practices.
You see Mexico as a part of our country, I see it as trashy neighbor who refuses to curb his dog or get the fridge off his lawn.
You are not helping illegal immigrants with your misguided idea that every one against illegal immigration is a racist. In fact you are helping perpetuate the cycle of abuses that these folks and their families are subjected to. You are hurting them, and your country.
Raise your voice, and tell your officials how you feel Billy. If you feel your position is the right one, you should take the initiative and make a difference.
August 21, 2008

9:48 a.m.

Suggest removal

The_Punnisher writes:

" Cowboy63 writes:

Opinion polls are irrelevant. Are we a nation of laws or aren't we?

Once the government sends the message that certain laws aren't worth enforcing; then the people will start deciding which laws aren't worth obeying. "

Cowboy has it right. The chief LEO in the country has decided to ignore the laws of the land. That says it all.

That just might be why the SS ( it's hard to tell the difference between the old and the new SS these days ) and our police presence is so obvious. Their boss foments ANARCHY ( look it up ) and " Ve Haff our Orders "..

" a RIOT is an Ugly Thing...Und it's just about time dat ve haff one!! "

Inspector Kemp

Young Frankenstein
August 21, 2008

9:59 a.m.

Suggest removal

lucy writes:

How was the opinion poll worded? That's clearly key. Did it ask if immigration was bad for the state? Answer obviously no if it's done through proper channels. Or does it ask if illegal immigration is bad for the state? Answer obviously yes. On the news last night it said the question was "Is illegal immigration bad for the state." I couldn't figure out how 42% of the people could believe illegal immigration was not bad for the state. In this story it says the question was "Is immigration bad for the state," (a completely different question, and it's not valid to assume the results would apply to illegals) which would make the results make a bit more sense, though I would think more than 50% would be for legal immigration.
August 21, 2008

10:14 a.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Big_D--
I'd like to read about that. Where'd you see it?
August 21, 2008

10:17 a.m.

Suggest removal

mytwosense writes:

ActualThinker: "Too many Americans think they should be paid $15/hr to cut wood or clean floors. Too many Americans are "above" almost all of the work that illegals do."

Gotta disagree with you on this comment, for a couple of reasons. I believe immigrants, illegal or otherwise, get these jobs because they're so desperate, they're willing to work for bare subsistance wages. The employers who hire are them are happy to pit legal Americans against immigrants in a bidding war and see their labor costs cut lower and lower. And this is what has pushed legal Americans out of these jobs, people who haven't grown up in Mexico where the cost of living is much cheaper.

Growing up, I saw plenty of Americans in janatorial and carpentry jobs. In fact, my father was a carpenter, and a highly skilled one, at that. I never saw him or any other American throw down their saw or mop in disgust and say "I'm above this!"

By the way, you seem to think $15/hour for strenuous manual labor is too much. But that only equals out to less than $30K a year, before taxes. That's not an easy salary to live on these days, especially if you are your family's main breadwinner.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy for folks who are so desperate, they risk their lives to cross the border to make a better life for their families. But I don't like hearing what I view as a false assumption that they wouldn't be here if Americans weren't "above" doing the work they do. Frankly, that sounds like the kind of propaganda spread by some of the cheap and greedy people who employ them!
August 21, 2008

10:21 a.m.

Suggest removal

mytwosense writes:

Big_D, I too am wondering why the RMN isn't covering the water issues. At the very least, the coverage could raise pressure on McCain to retract his position that such a valuable resource in this dry state should actually be diverted to Arizona, where huge housing booms are going on. I really don't think we can sustain that. Where I live in the mountains, we're already having to divert some of our water to nearby communities that are being rampantly developed. People here can't water their plants outside at all, and they're getting pissed off.

Imagine if our whole state has to undergo this. There are too many tensions in our country right now, we don't need a mass scale water war on top of everything else. McCain needs to seriously rethink taking our water to his home state, and without media coverage of the issue, there's not much incentive for him to do so.
August 21, 2008

10:21 a.m.

Suggest removal

COLibertarian writes:

I love it when we hear the argument about who will pick the fields if we do not allow Illegal immigrants to do so. Price of food will skyrocket if we do not allow Illegals to stay.

Please tell me how many Illegals are here in the Denver Metro area are working in the food harvesting business?

None of my neighbors are.
1 is a plumber. Private business, with employees (2) and pays NO taxes or benefits.....
2nd is a Painter. 5 employees private business and pays NO taxes or benefits.
3rd who just let house go into foreclosure...... Landscape business with part-time employees. Again NO taxes or benefits payed out.

All nice people, but they do NOT pay Taxes or benefits. They do not pay healthcare, nor pay into any of the schools of which they attend.

Nice Gig if you can get it.

Yes to LEGAL Immigration
NO to ILLEGAL Immigration
August 21, 2008

10:28 a.m.

Suggest removal

SD_JD writes:

Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicesned pharmacist'.

Any questions? The law is the law.
August 21, 2008

10:35 a.m.

Suggest removal

Cowboy63 writes:

If the general citizenry started choosing for themselves which laws to follow (tax laws for instance), the government would be on the "problem" in a flash!

However, when it comes to enforcing CLEAR LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS, you hear the excuses of "not enough manpower, facilities, budget, etc....".

Every other country in the world has better control of their borders than the US. Can you consider yourself a sovereign nation if you can't control your own borders?
August 21, 2008

10:37 a.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

SD_JD---
That is, by far, the most apt comparison I have heard.
Very, very apt.
August 21, 2008

10:40 a.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

thanks Big_D,
wasn't voting for him any way, but it's good to know.
August 21, 2008

11:03 a.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

fear the brown!!

is that the basic point many of you are trying to get across?

as usual, this debate really comes down to some pretty basic similiarities between the participants.

nearly everyone agrees that we should increase the resources for the enforcement of our labor and border laws.

nearly everyone agrees that we need to reform our current broken system to better accomodate the modern needs of america's labor market.

what everyone doesn't agree on, however, is what to do with the undocumented workers already here and already plugged into our economy.

those in the vast majority (nearly 8 out of 10 americans according to some studies) believe that immigration is healthy and that we should work to retain productive new members of the economic soup by offering a guest worker program with a path to citizenship for those immigrants that qualify to stay in the US.

seems to me that there is a lot of common ground on this debate...besides of course the predictable extremists whose decision making process doesn't include basics in economics and geopolitics.
August 21, 2008

11:12 a.m.

Suggest removal

mytwosense writes:

ssqured, sorry, but that wasn't my point. My point was simply that illegals don't do work Americans used to do because Americans are "above" that work. Rather, a wage bidding war situation is created where the one most desperate "wins" the job.

My understanding is that some of these people are even bussed in from Mexico, a practice particularly common in the slaughterhouse industry.

Have you ever read The Grapes of Wrath? Yes, it's a fictional story, but Steinbeck wrote it after living and working with migrant workers in California. In the story, the agriculture firms would send out tens of thousands of flyers to attract the Okies, and then once all these people were there, they found themselves in wage cutting wars.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the biggest employers of immigrant workers practice similar tactics.
August 21, 2008

11:53 a.m.

Suggest removal

Qt_K writes:

Ok, let's not kid ourselves here. I am 2nd generation US who had grandparents that were here legally. I am also born and raised in Colorado. I wouldn't say colorado is a racist state. I have lived in other states and most of my family is from other states and I can't say that I believe Colorado to be a racist state. That aside, we simply need to enforce the laws. I have personally witnessed what illegal immigration has taken away from legal citizens. They do get over, they have illegal documents that can present them with a better economic oppurtunity than those who are here legally. It's not just 'Mexicans' that do this, but other illegals that are from different countries. We are deprived from getting assistance as legal citizens because low paying jobs bring down the median income to qualify for necessary help, btw in case you are wondering I am not in need of help, but I have seen people who are and can't get the help, medical or otherwise. I've seen people who qualify for the help that others need because they are not 'qualified' as reporting income. Say for instance, a construction job given to an illegal that pay 60K plus per year, who doesn't pay taxes because they have several social security cards that are used for different activities, but the household reports no income so they get medicaid and food stamps, welfare etc. So who is paying the bill?
August 21, 2008

11:56 a.m.

Suggest removal

mytwosense writes:

ssqured: "My thought basis is; Are they being taken advantage of here anymore than the Mexican government has taken advantage of them in their native country? ... i.e., their corrupt governments failure to promote and uphold a decent wage standard for their own and not holding foreign manufacturers to a better wage and benefits standard."

Right on! Totally with you on that. And that's why I wanted Obrador to win the presidency, because he promised to provide public works jobs in Mexico and reform the current NAFTA laws. Not surprisingly, the Bush admin actively opposed his candidacy.
August 21, 2008

12:03 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Hi Jay,
you said "those in the vast majority (nearly 8 out of 10 americans according to some studies) believe that immigration is healthy"...
and I totally agree with them.
But then you said..."and that we should work to retain productive new members of the economic soup by offering a guest worker program with a path to citizenship for those immigrants that qualify to stay in the US.", and I think that part is wrong. I do not think that anywhere near 8 out of 10 people would want to make that offer. But maybe I'm just one of the other two.
My feeling is, as I have stated, often, we need to end the exploitation of Illegal workers from every country, by shutting down the businesses that employ them, large and small. We should work to end the predatory housing practices that create overcrowding and debt in communities of illegal workers.
Why should illegal immigrants remain here under any program, when there are thousands of people who have been waiting for years to come here and become Americans. The suggestion is horribly unfair to every immigrant who is here legally, every new citizen, and every future citizen waiting.
Aside from the fact that an illegal immigrant isn't supposed to be here for the obvious reason, (he's illegal), have you ever wondered why it is illegal to come into a country without permission, and work without permission, and use the services, etc. without permission?
It is illegal because the systems cannot handle it, having been designed to accomodate our normal, natural growth.
Its like letting your teenagers bring home their friends every day after school, if you are prepared to grocery shop only once per week. I like my kid's friends, but I am only prepared to parent the kids I gave birth to, or one that I might adopt.
The US can stand to "adopt" those future citizens who have gone through the process, but the others really have to go.
August 21, 2008

12:20 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

wow, if you look at American history, restricted immigration is not just about our ability to handle inflows of new people. There's also a component of racism and xenophobia. That goes back at least to the Chinese Exclusion Act in the 1920s, and the creation of the border patrol (ostensibly to keep the Chinese out).

As for the fairness of a path to citizenship, you and many others misrepresent what is, and what has been proposed. In the eyes of the law, presently, not all prospective immigrants wait the same amount of time. It depends on where you come from (unless you have a lot of money then it doesn't matter). If you're from Mexico or the Phillipines, you're last in line. All the reform bills that have made it through the Senate have a waiting period before permanent legal residence is authorized, and a fine is paid, so, no, it's not someone jumping ahead in line of others who have been waiting. In other words, the Senate bills have specifically taken this concern into account.
August 21, 2008

12:23 p.m.

Suggest removal

Garcia writes:

Billie is a racist who moronically pulls out the race card on this issue.

As a long time Denver Hispanic and citizen why do you turn your backs on us when it comes to cracking down on illegals here.

Sometimes it seems people especially journalists are out of touch and or elitist in that you do not think Americans do hard, dirty and ugly work. Many blue collar American citizens white, black, hispanic love to work outside in construction digging ditches or planting trees for our livelihood. We hate desk jobs.

These illegal workers are taking our jobs away with "GOP lovin" slave wages.
August 21, 2008

12:32 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

QtK: "They do get over, they have illegal documents that can present them with a better economic oppurtunity than those who are here legally."

An undocmented immigrant with no education has more "opportunity" than you or me? What a crock. How stupid and gullible do you think people are?

Contrary to your statement, undocumented persons do not get welfare or food stamps, and if they're working for an employer that doesn't pay under the table, taxes are being withheld. Stop regurgitating misinformation.
August 21, 2008

12:52 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Anderson,
you write: "All the reform bills that have made it through the Senate have a waiting period before permanent legal residence is authorized, and a fine is paid, so, no, it's not someone jumping ahead in line of others who have been waiting. In other words, the Senate bills have specifically taken this concern into account."
Are you adressing the fact that if an illegal worker is already living here, he has already jumped ahead in line?
People who still reside in other countries are patiently waiting there, not here.
Respectfully, I wasn't speaking merely of waiting periods for permanent legal residency.
As for the waiting times for those in Mexico or the Philipines, I won't speculate about that being based on race, but I would point out that all the Gold Rush states had racist laws concerning the Chinese, among others.
The entire country has had, until recently, very racist laws regarding American citizens of color. Racism is not a determining issue in immigration, as I see it. It is a part of daily American life, to a greater or lesser degree, depending who you are.
That does not mean that this current issue is exclusively, or even mostly about racism, or xenaphobia. In my opinion, racism has little to do with this situation at all.
It really isn't nice to imply that some one doesn't like Mexican immigrants who happen to be illegal.
The "illegal" is the important part, the "Mexican immigrant" part is incidental.
August 21, 2008

1:04 p.m.

Suggest removal

summitsailor writes:

I hope everyone remembers which Senate candidate supports anmesty when they go to the polls in Nov... UDALL...If he is elected then he will join Senator ANMESTY (Salazar) himself as our two Senators. Both have never met an illegal they did not want to give benefits to and let vote. Udall will not even sign the discharge petition to get the SAVE Act the floor of the house for a vote yet his web site toots that he is a cosponsor of it.
August 21, 2008

1:16 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

mmh---
"Anyways, illegals are helping keep our state's economy strong, whether we like it or not. Until the day when we invent machinery/ robots, etc, to do the dirty work, they will always be here."

Sorry hun, but that statement is wrong on so many levels, I can barely read it straight faced.
Our economy is weaker by the day. Have you seen the housing market, or been to a grocery store in the past six months? Prices are going up, wages are stagnant at best, and foreclosures and bankruptcies are at an all time high in Denver.
There are plenty of US citizens who will do the "dirty work" but they won't and cannot do it for minimum wage and less if they want to live with fewer than ten room mates.
I'll let you in on a little secret...back in 04, I lived in Greeley, and desparately needed work. I tried every temp agency, every fast food place, every thing I could think of. I'd have worked digging onions right along side the migrants, at that point.
I'm an educated ( 2 years of college), caucasian female in my mid thirties. Nothing was available for me. Not even janitorial work or child care.
Any one who was getting paid what they were worth at that time was clinging to their job for dear life, and no openings were available.
Any one willing to work for a pittance, was simply out of luck because it is less trouble to abuse and underpay people who tolerate and expect that treatment. Illegals.
August 21, 2008

1:21 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

wow, you said restricted immigration was all about our inability to handle the flow. I was just pointing out that racism and xenophobia was a component in such policies and it has been throughout history. I did not at any point say that was all or even most of the driving force behind our policy. I didn't assign it any portion of the policy at all. I just said it was there. And is there today. It's as clear as the nose on my face. I know you can't see it, but I do have a nose. You can see the xenophobia running like a river in the comments on this thread or in nearly any other thread on immigration.

I know this because I believe there is a correlation between this stuff and one's willingness to accept or spread misinformation about another. It worked on the Indians, when we kicked them out of the state. It worked on the blacks, when we kept them down for so long, and some people want it to work on the Mexican immigrants today. After all, this strategy (based on fear of those different than us) has worked before. Certain politicians buy votes with this strategy. Talk radio hosts buy audience share and get advertising with this strategy.

As to waiting in line, a person in authorized status today, remains unauthorized today. That's why I say he has not jumped in line. You're comparing apples (unauthorized) to oranges (authorized). The unauthorized person cannot obtain a driver's license. He cannot vote. He can pay taxes, but he cannot collect Social Security or welfare. He lives under the constant threat of detention (i.e., jail) and deportation. He is not free to travel over the border to visit his family, and can only do so at risk. The deportation and travel risks remain under all the Sentate proposals unless the unauthorized person "does his time" (satisfies a waiting period equivalent to what other immigrants must wait), demonstrates that he has not been in trouble with the law, and pays a fine. Some of them required that the immigrant return to his country of origin depending on how long he had been here. Again, the Senate specifically considered your concerns about the fairness of waiting.
August 21, 2008

1:31 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

wow, almost all economists agree that immigration has a beneficial effect on the overall economy, primarily because they are filling a unsatisfied demand for labor, and are doing so at low cost. Some find a greater benefit than others, but no one is saying it is detrimental in the main. Contrast the testimony of the four economists here. The one who is most critical of immigration (from the U. of Illinois), basically only cites the potential loss of jobs for high school kids. That is consistent with everything else I've read on the subject.

http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/heari...
August 21, 2008

1:32 p.m.

Suggest removal

Qt_K writes:

Anderson, if I hadn't personally witnessed it, then I wouldn't believe it. Basically the way it works is they don't marry. The non working party in the household applies for benefits and receives them. You can choose deductions on your checks, that is less then what you would owe the government, and just never pay.
August 21, 2008

1:37 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Sorry, I'm not following your example. Are you talking about the payment of taxes or the collection of benefits? Again, if you are unauthorized, you are excluded from most if not all welfare programs. You cannot get Social Security or other federal benefits. You can get emergency medical care.
August 21, 2008

1:37 p.m.

Suggest removal

Qt_K writes:

Also note I'm not saying all or generalizing, I have just seen it happen more among illegals then I think it should.
August 21, 2008

1:41 p.m.

Suggest removal

Qt_K writes:

Both, paying taxes you owe and collecting welfare benefits, which you can get. True you won't get Social Security so in reverse when they reach that age they must continue to work.
August 21, 2008

1:50 p.m.

Suggest removal

Qt_K writes:

Anderson, keep in mind I'm only speaking from my point of view. I think something needs to be done. I've seen people loose their house to foreclosure because they can't refinance, but illegals that let the house go to foreclosure, come back under a different SS# and repurchase the house, so it was no surprise to me last year when a bunch of people were busted for illegally draft refie's on houses. There are people that are illegal in well paying positions that will draft fake payroll documentation to say that you are making more to qualify for say a house or car, and less to qualify for welfare or other.....just saying I just think it's wrong. As far as the payroll, I just heard about it (from what I consider to be a reliable source), but the other stuff I've seen.
August 21, 2008

1:52 p.m.

Suggest removal

Mike1969 writes:

Whatever! “Only 50% felt ILLEGAL immigration hurt Colorado” What a freaking joke.

Leave it to the Pro-Amnesty, Pro-Illegal Crowd down at the RMN to try to pull off such a farce!

Bottom line is other polls have shown well over 70% of American’s surveyed are sick and tired of all the costs and problems caused by ILLEGAL immigration.

Anyway you look at it, and no matter how many polls there are, ILLEGAL aliens are still here ILLEGALLY!

Is it asking too much to want our laws enforced?
August 21, 2008

2:03 p.m.

Suggest removal

STOPUSAGiveaway writes:

Same old "we need workers, these people just come to work, etc discriminatiion, racist, this nation was stolden;;;get a life:
Either ENFORCE USA laws: our let we the people deal with those who don't want to abide by the laws.
REMEMBER the ALAMO my heritage
Its at everyone's doorstep now.
And ain't Denver beautiful with its wh es on Colfax with their halter tops pregnant doing gang symbols...
Ain't it fun paying for heathen breeders
Ain't it great to pay double for DIAL#2 for Spanish
How about G A N G S living the life of filth breeding fear
How about ILLEGALS non profits: citizens pay for their taxes and then more than we can every pay down the debt.
THE USA is going down because people sit and keyboard trying to play a god....while the nation is being destroyed.
So alll th bleeding hearts: YOU PAY FOR THE ILLEGALS:
start with their HEATHEN BREEDING via sperm donor exponentils for auto welfare citizenship from womb to tomb
How about donating a house ortwo or four or six or eight: pay the taxes, utilities, insuance etc.
How about education: why not let your own work for theirs.
DISEASES don't mind if you get any or die: let them serve your food, or take care of your children or elderly--without medical checkups prior to entry into the USA
Why not provide transport...
Keep killing all the land, filling it up with concrete,
CUT DOWN THOSE trees for urban sprawl....
POLLUTION...some of you must be six years old and never knew how beautiful DEN VER was....before the ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION....
NO STANDARDS who would you want to design a bridge or building you live in or walk or drive over...?
How about: have a physicians: with no standards just let em graduate ad shot you with meds or O P E R A T E without having passed any course work--just promote....
NO LAWS....so what can you expect...
RESEARCH Jose Angel Gutierrez
Y O U who giveaway the USA: attention: you are responsbible for US TROOPS DEAD since we began to form a nation based upon sacriice.
Tell Mexico to give back their lands to the Inditos:
Tell China, Japan, England, Iraq everyone to give back to those who were there first.
THEN get out--and let the animals live because they do not breed and expect someone else to die for them and like ignorant homosapiens who breed living like parasitos on the backs of the diminishing USA working taxpayers...
Do Unto Others.
TEN COMMANDEMENTS the illegals never heard of or ignore:
ILLEGALS aka THE RACE are a P L A G U E upon the USA
GOD doesn't have to destroy us we are in self destruct
August 21, 2008

2:11 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Anderson,
"Again, if you are unauthorized, you are excluded from most if not all welfare programs. You cannot get Social Security or other federal benefits."
This I know...I think probably every one knows this is, by law how it works. Who suggested that anyone was taking the "law" into consideration?
You are making the assumption that the employers and the illegals are obeying the tax laws and using proper documentation.
It is a well established notion that people who are here illegally are already in violation of the law, and therefore, not beholden to anyone with regard to honesty about their SS#, origins, Visas, etc. No one can offer a shred of evidence to suggest that all, or most or even any illegals are honest, taxpaying citizens, who work for honest, upstanding employers.
That brings us to the subject of forged documents. A document may be forged, and taxes may come out of a payroll check from an honest employer who has been fooled.
But if the worker claims 5 dependants, his refund will be far more than he contributed in the first place when one figures in the child tax credit, and the other income credits for low income earners. And with that same forged document, the worker and his family, if they are here, can expect to recieve food stamps, free school lunches, medicaid and wic. If the family is not present, the illegal worker can live in appalling conditions with ten or more other people in order to save for a year to pay a coyote an exorbitant fee to bring his family to him, or he can send his dollars home, to circulate and boost that country's economy, instead of this one.
How can you sound so educated, and not be aware of these things.
Don't you realize, anderson, that by defending illegal immigration, you are dooming people to slave wages, slum housing, and exploitation. You also deney them the chance to be proud of their home country, or make it a place worth being proud of. You also deny people who have the good fortune to be born here the ability to compete in a fair arena.
Please, rethink some of what you have read, dig deeper, and read more.
August 21, 2008

2:17 p.m.

Suggest removal

STOPUSAGiveaway writes:

PS I would stake my life on the fact that those of you supporting aiding and abetting illegals are cowards; and if you had to step up to do something for ILLEGALS or go to war you would pee your pants and cry....
How about Officer Young whose duty it was to protect and serve doing two jobs; brutally murdered by an illegal working fully employeed in the mayors restaurant....
YOU who support NO LAWS and do hat you want to should have been the DECEASED and not officer YOUNG.
FAMILY integrity: the officer didn't have illegitimate children like the ILLEGALS.
Get your priorities straight and put your effort where your keyboard is hiding in the dark cowards....giving away something you never earned.
I feel sorry for gutless wonders who cowar to EVIL
aiding and abetting pretending to be serving as little gods of the....D E V I L
GOD BLESS the weary for they are giving all they can for One Nation Under GOD and abiding by man and GOD's LAW: the TEN COMMANDEMENTS
August 21, 2008

2:18 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

wow, i appreciate the fact that you're loath to come to terms with the support for a gwp...i've had to have the same conversation with many folks who have a tough time wrapping their mind around that one.

instead of digging up all the data again, i hope you don't mind if i just point you to a thread in which i already established the point with the information you've requested.

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/ro...

other than that...see my previous post. nearly all of us are for increasing our efforts to enforce our labor and border laws. nearly all of us want to reform our system so that there are fewer negative aspects of the costs involved while maximizing the inherent benefits seen from immigration properly managed.

the vast majority of americans agree with those sentiments as well...but also with allowing those already here and who qualify a chance to remain here if they meet certain requirements and perform certain necessary tasks and duties (which is not "amnesty" for you rushian footsoldiers out there). i'm not saying you're wrong to disagree with that...just that you're choosing to be company with an ever increasingly irrelevant minority in that regard.
August 21, 2008

2:39 p.m.

Suggest removal

longpasttime writes:

If I read the comments on this forum correctly, it appears that Coloradans are far from divided on ILLEGAL immigration - quite the opposite, actually. Close to 90% of the comments are in agreement. I can't think of ANY other issue that 90% of us agree on, so how is the RMN coming up with this being divisive?
August 21, 2008

2:47 p.m.

Suggest removal

Mike1969 writes:

I see a few people from the Pro-ILLEGAL / Pro Amnesty Crowd trying to play the race card so I would like to add the following;

ILLEGAL aliens are not a race. They could be from any country or of any race. The only thing they have in common is that they are in the country ILLEGALLY which makes them all CRIMINALS!

Disliking CRIMINALS does not make someone a RACIST so put your race card away and try to come up with something original.

I also would like to add that even though the RMN stated that their poll “found that 50 percent felt immigration hurt Colorado, while 42 percent said it helped the state” Based on the many posts I’m reading a real survey would likely be closer to 90%, 10% …and of the 10% I have yet to hear a good argument for anything positive ILLEGAL aliens contribute, all I’m seeing from the Pro-ILLEGAL / Pro Amnesty Crowd is the playing of the race card and name calling.
August 21, 2008

2:53 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

jay--
Thanks for the link. I found what I assume to be a cut and paste of poll results to one of your posts re how people feel about immigration, a gwp, etc.
But there was no link to the site you took it from. Not that I don't believe you, but....as a poster on that topic a year ago told you, it would give you more credibility post info from a reliable source, and provide a link to the source.
I noted that some of your posts had links, and references to yet more posts on even older threads where you were arguing the same topics in the same manner. It would save you a load of time and effort to just post the sources where you find your info, rather than posting uncredited info.
Its clear you've been at it for some time, and I can respect that.
I guess that even if it could be proven that a majority% of people wanted a gwp, I still wouldn't. Not unless there was a more compelling reason than "every body else is doing it...".
August 21, 2008

3:19 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

not at all, wow...this inevitably comes up.

the scientific, national, credible polling can be found at www.pollingreport.com

as i said, lots of folks need some time to wrap their minds around the fact that the vast majority of americans support the type of gwp about which we've talked. that's not to say that they are any more correct than those who opposed a gwp...just an observation on the way it breaks down from a math standpoint.

considering the overwhelming support for a gwp, i think it's inevitable that at some point it will be part of a comprehensive immigration reform bill.

considering how hard the republicans tried to make this a wedge issue in 06 and 08...failing both times but coming close....the dems will use the new majority after november to put together a comprehensive 25 year plan that ties up some resources in order to try to fix the problem. yes...that probably means raising taxes and or increasing our national debt. the republicans would have had to have done the same thing.
August 21, 2008

3:55 p.m.

Suggest removal

Cowboy63 writes:

The time has come for a NATIONAL ID CARD. You don't work, collect benefits, get into a hospital or school without one. This solves the "anchor baby" issue as well. The baby may technically be a US citizen, but YOU still need the ID card to work in this country.

High rent+high gas+high utilities+no job+no benefits+ no freebies = end of illegal immigration problem with no "round ups" needed.
August 21, 2008

4:08 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

cowboy, why would we purge millions of people working in our economy during a recession while we try to stave of competition from china and europe?

does that sound like a good idea to you?
August 21, 2008

4:19 p.m.

Suggest removal

Brain writes:

"The Rocky Mountain News/CBS4 News poll found that 50 percent felt immigration hurt Colorado, while 42 percent said it helped the state."

This poll does not ask whether people feel ILLEGAL immigration hurts Colorado it asks about immigration, this is so disingenuous. We have had about 700,000 LEGAL immigrants come here annually since 2000. How many is enough? As long as our country decides how many is enough, great.
I believe immigration is good for America but illegal immigration is not good for us or legal immigrants.
August 21, 2008

4:21 p.m.

Suggest removal

JSeifert writes:

I guess some poeple do not know how they system works. The illegals ether use a stolen ID or they use their kids ID to apply for Money from the City , County and state thats how they work the system. Then when the city , county or state tries to collect the money they vanish off the earth to collect more money off someone elses ID, you would be surprised how many Denver county and others gives money to it would piss you off and wanting to tar and feather someone and the workers and governments look the other way as long as more money comes in from us the taxpayers.
August 21, 2008

4:35 p.m.

Suggest removal

Brain writes:

"greedy white people who want cheap labor CREATED this problem."????
Funny how the Chinese restuarant in Castle Rock made the paper after being busted for having ILLEGAL immigrants working at his store, that sure sounds like "greedy white people".
I know of more than one "landscape" company that is owned by minorities (latinos) and have also been busted by ICE.
I don't care if your from Mars please don't come here illegally!!
August 21, 2008

4:46 p.m.

Suggest removal

mytwosense writes:

jay: "cowboy, why would we purge millions of people working in our economy during a recession while we try to stave of competition from china and europe?"

Well, in all honesty, it could create a labor shortage that would increase wages and give people more money to spend - and put back in the economy.

Not that I'm in favor of "purges." But, this is one realistic scenario.
August 21, 2008

4:54 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

What is the current number of unskilled citizen job seekers versus comparably skilled illegal immigrants? Any body got that one floating around?
If not, I'll dig.
This should be interresting.
August 21, 2008

4:54 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

i'm not going to support policies that needlessly put our economic health at risk, mts....particularly at a time when we need to be at full fighting weight considering our competition and engagements.

i find the best way to deal with this issue is to take the emotion completely out of it and just look at the basic economic facts.

i just don't see how hamstringing our own national productivity at this point in our development would be considered a good idea.

that said, i'm all for reforming our immigration policies...i again just disagree with the minority of folks out there who believe we need to purge productive members of our workforce because they didn't fill out the right paperwork before coming here.
August 21, 2008

5:06 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Jay, I'm not defending illegal immigration. I'm against slave wages and exploitation. That's why reform of our law is needed. However, few things irk me more than false information used as a weapon against people with virtually no political power. As to your hypothetical about forged documents, it doesn't make sense. There is tax fraud and there is welfare fraud. The people who administer this stuff have measures to prevent it. The fact that someone somewhere may have got away with something doesn't mean that undocumented immigrants as a whole do, no more than the fact that the white guy down the street who fixed my car for $500 and didn't report it means that white people are all tax frauds or some similar silly sh__. The clear fact is: if you're unauthorized, you're not entitled to welfare. Use your head.

It's funny, when Colorado passed their "get tough" on immigration laws two years ago, based the same phony baloney claims made on this thread, state officials were unable to identify *any* savings. They concluded the extra enforcement cost the state 2 million. But NO savings. That's what happens when people react to an emotion (hate, fear) and eschew reason.
August 21, 2008

5:12 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

There's almost no worse crime in America than to mention the "r" word to white people. The only reason I can get away with it, is because I'm white too. Alright, all you who are pissed off because I mentioned racism in connection with immigration, let's all hold hands, take a deep breath together, click your heels, and say, "I am not a racist". Go ahead, say it again, "I am not a racist". Look in the mirror to make sure you don't have a hole in your head just because you talk that way, and repeat: "I am not a racist". Ah, doesn't that make you feel better?
August 21, 2008

5:19 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Wow, here's a good source for your question: http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record... (see chaps 4 and 5). If I may summarize: undocumented immigrants compete in the workforce with those similar in education and skill, i.e., the unskilled and the uneducated (meaning generally less than a high school education), in specific occupations (construction, services, agriculture). That report is about 10 years old, but I've not seen anything in the literature to change their findings. The Pew Center probably has more current information on the same subject, or I refer you to the economist testimony I posted earlier.
August 21, 2008

5:23 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Aliverer (blubbering) "I've got nothing to say but I am *not* a racist.
August 21, 2008

5:25 p.m.

Suggest removal

Brain writes:

"reform of our law is needed"
No, enforcement of OUR laws is needed!
August 21, 2008

5:26 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Mike1969: "The RMN poll wasn't a *real* poll, because it didn't say what I thought it should say".
August 21, 2008

5:28 p.m.

Suggest removal

raoul writes:

vote for obama if you want illegals to get drivers licenses.

oh, big D - shut the h*ll up beeoch. you got no cred and you're an obvious obama hack.
August 21, 2008

5:34 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Hey Brain, I keep asking people if they really want to enforce "the law" why they aren't interested in hiring more police, and doing drug sweeps, and tax fraud sweeps, and enforcing our traffic laws, but no one is stepping up or responding in any manner. So it seems you really aren't that concerned about "the law", only with certain laws--which just happens to be laws that don't involve you. C'mon fess up. Stop professing some false concern about the law. And next time your state or national legislator comes to your community and talks about fixing this or that law that isn't working, stop him or her cold in their tracks and say, "we don't need any stinking reform, we just want to enforce 'the law'".
August 21, 2008

5:42 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Aliverer, I didn't call you a racist. I was just mocking people like you who cry crocdile tears whenever someone mentions racism. It's obviously difficult for you to have an adult conversation. You can't keep your attention on any topic for longer than 10 seconds, and your response to just about anything is to falsely claim that the conversation was focused on YOU and to insult someone in turn.
August 21, 2008

6:07 p.m.

Suggest removal

coarizona writes:

This topic isn't about being racist...it is about the law and the need to enforce it on a city/state/national level. Stop trying to sell us on a race issue. It is an immigration issue. Other countries have tough immigration laws and they enforce them. Time to do it here.NOW
August 21, 2008

6:09 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Anderson,
"Hey Brain, I keep asking people if they really want to enforce "the law" why they aren't interested in hiring more police, and doing drug sweeps, and tax fraud sweeps, and enforcing our traffic laws, but no one is stepping up or responding in any manner."

Dude, this is the first time I've heard you bring that up. If you ever read me, you know I'm all for enforcing the laws that work, changing the ones that don't work, and getting rid of the ones that are intrusive and unnecessary. Had you brought that up before, we might have had a talk about it.
But here we are.
And it was you, no one else, that started talking about a history of racism and xenophobia in our immigration policies. You implied, rather than outright stating, that we who want to end illegal immigration are racists and xenophobes, by association. You also stated, in a round about way, that because the information we are informed by differs from yours, ours is useless, hypothetical even.
I think somebody needs to chill, open his made up mind, and stop cherry picking for information because he thinks he's helping.
Do you even know any illegals? Have you ever even spoken to any?
Sheesh.....
August 21, 2008

6:31 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Maybe you and Jay ought to have a look at this Anderson---http://archive.southcoastt...

NEW BEDFORD — Federal authorities launched a massive raid on a South End manufacturing plant yesterday morning, detaining between 300 and 350 illegal immigrants and charging the company's owner and three managers with helping many of the workers obtain false documentation to live in the United States.
The sweep at Michael Bianco Inc. left employees running for the exits shortly after 8 a.m., as federal agents and New Bedford police converged on the three-story brick building on West Rodney French Boulevard. A Coast Guard helicopter hovered overhead.
Federal immigration agents arrested the company's owner, Francesco Insolia, 50, of 3 Country Club Circle, Pembroke; payroll manager Ana Figueroa, 40, of 150 Thompson St., New Bedford; plant manager Dilia Costa, 55, of 43 Sherman St., New Bedford, and office manager Gloria Melo, 41, of 135 Sprague St., Fall River. They were charged with "conspiring to encourage or induce illegal aliens to reside in the United States, and conspiring to hire illegal aliens."
A fifth defendant, Luis Torres, 45, of 500 South Second St., New Bedford, was charged in a separate criminal complaint with the knowing transfer of fraudulent identification documents. "

Hypothetical, huh...whatever.
August 21, 2008

6:32 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

messed up the link,oops

here
http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/da...
August 21, 2008

6:37 p.m.

Suggest removal

Brain writes:

anderson; "hiring more police, and doing drug sweeps, and tax fraud sweeps, and enforcing our traffic laws,"

Your premise is wrong as I AM for enforcing all laws as well as we can; obviously we can't practically catch everyone that breaks laws and must prioritize. Virtually all countries have immigration laws; some do better at enforcing them than others mostly depending on how important it is to that countries quality of life and security. This poll is not measuring how people feel about ILLEGAL immigration it is measuring how people feel about immigration, if the poll had asked about ILLEGAL immigration we would see that a "vast majority" of people feel it is a problem as other polls have shown, therefore enforcing our immigration law is relatively important to our citizens and yes, me. I believe that a major reason we have the problem is because we don't TRY to enforce our laws especially on employers who hire them.
What "reform" do you suggest?
Do you believe we should have NO immigration law?
August 21, 2008

6:45 p.m.

Suggest removal

Garcia writes:

What about us!
Anderson moronically pulls out the race card on this issue.

As a long time Denver Hispanic and citizen why do you turn your backs on us when it comes to cracking down on illegals here.

Sometimes it seems people like anderson and especially journalists are out of touch and or elitist in that they do not think Americans do hard, dirty and ugly work.

Many blue collar American citizens white, black, hispanic love to work outside in construction labor or planting trees for our livelihood. We hate desk jobs!!

These illegal workers are taking our jobs away with "GOP lovin" slave wages.

We want our jobs back!

But it does not matter to elites like Anderson who probably lives in the suburbs and doesn't know how 'DPS is in a down spiral.
August 21, 2008

6:48 p.m.

Suggest removal

GetReal writes:

jay-

The majority of Americans voiced rather loudly their opinions on illegal immigration by pressuring the defeat of the proposed amnesty bill.

But I know you never let pesky facts bother you.

Anderson-

You stated,
"An undocmented immigrant with no education has more "opportunity" than you or me? What a crock. How stupid and gullible do you think people are?"

I would love to have the opportunity to use the emergency room of any hospital as my own private doctors office for free by simply giving a fake name and knowing I will never get caught because it is an unenforced crime when illegals are involved.

Free health care at the expense of the taxpayers sounds like a hell of an opportunity to me.

You want gullibility and stupidity?

Look in the mirror pal.
August 21, 2008

9:59 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

wow says: "If you ever read me, you know I'm all for enforcing the laws that work, changing the ones that don't work, and getting rid of the ones that are intrusive and unnecessary."

So am I.

"And it was you, no one else, that started talking about a history of racism and xenophobia in our immigration policies."

Yep, and I explained to you twice why I did so.

"You implied, rather than outright stating, that we who want to end illegal immigration are racists and xenophobes, by association."

Twist my argument into something of your making if you will in order to make it easier to knock down. I'm used to it. Racism exists. Xenophobia exists. It's part of the public discussion and views on immigration. It's not about labeling anyone as a racist. Is that too hard to understand?

"You also stated, in a round about way, that because the information we are informed by differs from yours, ours is useless, hypothetical even."

Yeah, a lot of people are misinformed, and as I mentioned that is evidence of the racism (the willingness to accept and spread misinformation). Since when is it "my" information against "your" information-? I offered you some real sources of information that you don't acknowledge in any way. It seems like I was just wasting my time.

"I think somebody needs to chill, open his made up mind, and stop cherry picking for information because he thinks he's helping."

I've studied the matter. I'm open to information to counter any mistaken assumptions. You say I'm cherry picking because of what? Because I didn't come to the right conclusions?

"Do you even know any illegals? Have you ever even spoken to any?"

Yes, yes, and you're implying what? That I would loath them if only I knew them?
August 21, 2008

10:15 p.m.

Suggest removal

Garcia writes:

Anderson writes:
"Do you even know any illegals? Have you ever even spoken to any?"

Huhhhh..Amigo.. You are another gabacho not making much sense..sano tonto.. Living in suburb lala elite land.

Read the 6:45 post..we want our jobs back!!:

What about us!
Anderson moronically pulls out the race card on this issue.

As a long time Denver Hispanic and citizen why do you turn your backs on us when it comes to cracking down on illegals here.

Sometimes it seems people like anderson and especially journalists are out of touch and or elitist in that they do not think Americans do hard, dirty and ugly work.

Many blue collar American citizens white, black, hispanic love to work outside in construction labor or planting trees for our livelihood. We hate desk jobs!!

These illegal workers are taking our jobs away with "GOP lovin" slave wages.

We want our jobs back!

But it does not matter to elites like Anderson who probably lives in the suburbs and doesn't know how DPS is in a down spiral.

Start living in the real world gabacho
August 21, 2008

11:47 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

getreal, did you vote on any immigration bills last year?

neither did the rest of us...please read the thread i posted above...we've already debunked all these mythical right wing talking points.

there's not point doing it again if you'd just do us the favor of taking ten minutes to do some much needed reading.
August 22, 2008

8:49 a.m.

Suggest removal

note2self writes:

These posters continually spam every online forum related to immigration:

Brittanicus
EdWeirdness
Buzzm1
legallatina
HernandezUSA
zeezil
nativessayno

Do not rely on these posters information. Their data is BOGUS. This is done in an attempt to influence the debate on immigration by confusing readers with misinformation and propoganda. They are NOT concerned members of your community. They are affiliated with ALIPAC. An anti-immigrant organization run by William Gheen from North Carolina. Posters on ALIPAC's forums have said things like:

“let the rednecks with their shotguns go to work"

"I was ready to stand in front of my local VA and start shooting Mexicans"

Ask yourself. Would you trust information on immigration from a source like this? Please do your own research folks, and do not rely on these people for anything accurate.
August 22, 2008

8:57 a.m.

Suggest removal

mytwosense writes:

jay: "i just don't see how hamstringing our own national productivity at this point in our development would be considered a good idea."

It's true that our national productivity continues to make gains. My understanding, though, is that this isn't being reflected in wage growth. I really don't know if immigration is a major factor there or not.
August 22, 2008

9:11 a.m.

Suggest removal

linkous2 writes:

Hey Garcia do you pay taxes?
August 22, 2008

9:20 a.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Garcia, you don't have a job? Go get one and stop crying about it. It's a lot more productive than sitting on the internet and calling people names.
August 22, 2008

9:22 a.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Anderson,
"Twist my argument into something of your making if you will in order to make it easier to knock down. I'm used to it. Racism exists. Xenophobia exists. It's part of the public discussion and views on immigration. It's not about labeling anyone as a racist. Is that too hard to understand?"

It is part of the public discussion...that doesn't mean it's relevant to the discussion. People seem likely to throw it in when they need to detract from the real issue. You did it. I called you on it.

"Yeah, a lot of people are misinformed, and as I mentioned that is evidence of the racism (the willingness to accept and spread misinformation). Since when is it "my" information against "your" information-? I offered you some real sources of information that you don't acknowledge in any way. It seems like I was just wasting my time."

No, Anderson. You were wasting my time. I have read all the same things you have, and once upon a time, I drew the same conclusions. Then, I read some more, and then some more, and came to a new conclusion.
You are cherry picking, in that the only information you will accept is the information that supports your already established conclusion. Admit that forged documents do in fact exist, and are in fact used, in real life, by unscrupulous employers and illegal aliens they employ. I've provided the news story and the link. It is not "hypothetical".

Yes, yes, and you're implying what? That I would loath them if only I knew them?

Only a weasel like you would deny calling me a racist, and then jump to that absurd conclusion.
You, Anderson, are the one who thinks that Mexico cannot be saved and built up by it's people.
You are the one who loses no sleep over illegal immigrants working for slave wages, often being held against their will, and kept in worse poverty here than they knew at home.
You are the one who isn't bothered by the lending/renting practices that force them into situations that breed disease, malnutrition, right next to families who live well in middle class neighborhoods. The enequity doesn't get to you. You could care less, as long as you look and sound PC, and follow the other sheep.
You don't know anything about illegals, except what you've read, written by other PC weenies, like you.
I've had two illegal aliens in my family. And let me tell you, I know a tad bit about how they are treated. And It bothers the heck out of me.
It isn't about race, it's about human rights.
And you are denying them, and us the opportunity to acheve even a simple standard in their home country, except at the expense of yours.
August 22, 2008

9:23 a.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

twosense: maybe you don't trust anything I post, but I posted two links from credible sources that directly speak to the issue of wages and immigration.
August 22, 2008

9:35 a.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

wow, I thought for a moment you wanted to have an adult conversation. But you didn't really. You're just another nasty person on the internet who gets some sort of satisfaction in calling others names. Sorry to have broken the all-white club rules by mentioning race.
August 22, 2008

9:44 a.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Brain asks: What "reform" do you suggest?

I've answered that many times, and in fact, made reference, I believe, to the Senate bills on this thread. So what reform do you think I want?

"Do you believe we should have NO immigration law?"

Nope, never said that or anything to suggest that was my position. This is a problem that keeps cropping up. Immigration is a complex issue. Dealing with it in real life means getting beyond simple binary or soundbite assessments such as law or no law. Enforcement or no enforcement.
August 22, 2008

9:58 a.m.

Suggest removal

mytwosense writes:

Anderson: "twosense: maybe you don't trust anything I post, but I posted two links from credible sources that directly speak to the issue of wages and immigration."

I have no reason to distrust you, we're often on the same page on numerous issues, in fact. I'll check out the links, thanks.
August 22, 2008

10:22 a.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

anderson writes:
wow, I thought for a moment you wanted to have an adult conversation. But you didn't really. You're just another nasty person on the internet who gets some sort of satisfaction in calling others names. Sorry to have broken the all-white club rules by mentioning race.

No, you never bothered with whether or not I wanted to have an adult conversation, because that wasn't what you had in mind from the start....

You called me a racist, over and over. You denied calling me a racist. You made fun of me for being indignant about it, and you did it yet again.

You didn't even read the major news story I posted and linked to, directly refuting your assertion that the use of forged documents by illegal aliens is "hypothetical".

And then, as if you thought I would give you the last word, you post this........"Sorry to have broken the all-white club rules by mentioning race."
What???
How many times have you contradicted yourself by saying that to you, this was not a racial issue, when clearly it is, because every one who disagrees is a misinformed racist?
You don't care at all about illegal aliens, their human rights, or their problems, or the state of their country. You don't even show any concern for this one, except to point out the obvious flaws of the past 200 years. You sir are a poser, at best.
I was wrong calling you a weasel.
I've known weasels with more intellectual integrity.
August 22, 2008

11:03 a.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

mts, real wages definitely suffer when the value of the dollar goes down due to increased national debt and policies that cause increases in consumer prices. we saw similar decreases under reagan and bush, increases under clinton and decreases or stagnation under w.
August 22, 2008

11:45 a.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

MyTwoSense:

Here is a better link (than I provided before) to the New American study if a brief summary is desired as to the effect of immigration on wages (p. 4-8). In my opinion, this study is the best comprehensive study of immigration available although it is now about 10 years old. Like good scientists, they tell you their methodology and what they looked at in arriving at their conclusions.

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?rec...

Four economists testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee two years ago with a variety of perspectives. Barry Chiswick is the most critical of the four regarding immigration, but see who he gives as an example of those affected by illegal immigration: high school kids. On the other hand, as I recall, Dan Scioliano argues there is essentially no effect on wages.

http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/heari...

Here is the Bell Policy Center’s survey of the literature. They conclude the overall impact on wages and employment is minimal.

http://www.thebell.org/PUBS/IssBrf/20...

A somewhat different perspective from the leading voice of the restrictionist movement on this issue: They too center the economic effect of immigration on the uneducated. I'm sure you can weigh the respective arguments and draw your own conclusions.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/saco...
August 22, 2008

12:03 p.m.

Suggest removal

FlyfishDude52 writes:

If it is not, illegal immigration will become the most polarizing issue of our time. Personally, I believe it already is.

Many disturbing comments have aleady been made in this forum & I only want to add a few that pi$$ me off no end.

OK if you're an illegal immigrant and you're hanging around speaking mexican spanish that makes sense, you don't know English. If you're in the US legally and you're hanging around speaking mexican spanish SHAME on you. And then you wonder why people don't treat you as an equal. Cause you are not.

The legal immigrants that chose not to speak English are a large part of the problem. I ask individuals, who are speaking a language besides English, what language they are speaking. I get derisive answers from many. "What you don't know spanish when you hear it gringo?" "no comprende." I seldom have received a civil response to the question, therefore I have become jaded and respond in kind, which is not the best way, rudely. So who is doing the polarizing? I say deport ALL & don't give me that cr@p about breaking-up families, if they came here illegally then they ran that risk knowingly & it isn't even an issue.

After the vast majority of the illegals have been deported and the US has achieved an "after depotation status-quo," let's revisit the impacts that exist no longer. I think the numbers & changes will boggle the mind.
August 22, 2008

12:42 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Hmm, first generation immigrants have always spoken "their" language, and if you've ever traveled somewhere out of the U.S., I bet you spoke "your" language too, and didn't think nothing of it.
I was on a local group outing last winter, when two of the women in the group (older than me and obviously in this country a long time) starting speaking German to each other. I didn't ask them what language they were speaking and I didn't cop an attitude about it either.

Of course, the fact that someone speaks Spanish (or German or anything else), does not mean they can't or don't speak English. So your assertion that "they" "choose not to speak English" seems rather ridiculous. How do you know, and where do you get off making blanket statements about such a diverse group as immigrants (whose abilities with the language undoubtedly vary considerably, as they always have with immigrants).

You dont' think nothing of breaking up families? Here, let me hold a Mexican for you so you can slug him in the gut so you can feel better. There's his kid. Why don't kick him while you're at it? People like you make me sick. Your ugliness is a blight on America.
August 22, 2008

1:13 p.m.

Suggest removal

FlyfishDude52 writes:

anderson - you are welcome to your opinion. However, I find that you've unleashed a rather severe attack on my "blanket" statements.

My grandparents (all 4) emigrated to the US as children and before I was born could speak English quite clearly. I though, as a child, that they had a funny accent but could easily understand them.

So it's a matter of desire. If you have the desire to assimilate you do. If your intention is to bring your language, your customs, your holidays, your mannerisms, etc. with no intention of assimilating your adopted nation, then I say to you; go back where you came from, fast, don't let the door hit you in the rear.

This is a legal/illegal issue not one that can be viewed with emotion. Remember the law is supposed to be blind to things that would arouse emotions.
August 22, 2008

1:28 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Everyone assilimilates differently. That's reality. That's history. It's not just a matter of desire. Ability, age, and amount of time in the new country all have something to do with it too. So I just have to scratch my head when someone says "They" (this single, monothlic, group of people to be despised) "refuse" to speak English (or whatever). Anyone introduced into a new culture, is going to feel pressure to assimilate (imagine if you were to move to France) and they are going to adapt in some way, some more than others. Most people introduced into a new culture are likely to want to preserve something of the old even as they deal (with varying degrees) with change with the new. Ever-flexible children are acculturated from the get go, unless you lock them in a closet.

Westward: the Immigrants (a book about Italian immigration to America) is a good study of the process of immigration and assimiliation.
August 22, 2008

1:46 p.m.

Suggest removal

FlyfishDude52 writes:

Thanks Fresh! I didn't want to respond, as anderson did, by spewing vitriol and generalizations.
August 22, 2008

2:10 p.m.

Suggest removal

BigSky182 writes:

If they wanted to "assilimilate" they would enter the process legally. How is demanding that signs be written in their native language, insisting that Public Schools offer courses in their native language, lobbying for the "right" to hang their native flag in Public Schools, celebrating their native holidays, and importing their native groceries going to help them "assimilate"?

The ones who want to become a part of American Culture are welcomed.
August 22, 2008

2:24 p.m.

Suggest removal

wow writes:

Thank you, Fresh....
When you're right, you're right.
"This is ALSO why MANY don't give a ounce of sympathy for them. You help to enforce this with your bullsht!"

Two days I have wasted trying to make this clear, but you have stated it much more simply.
Maybe now he'll get it.

Flyfish---
I didn't reply to what you said before, because I didn't want to come off like I was attacking you, but what you said was wrong, I think.
"The legal immigrants that chose not to speak English are a large part of the problem. I ask individuals, who are speaking a language besides English, what language they are speaking."
Just my opinion, but I don't think any one who legally comes here, and assimilates should feel compelled to stop speaking in their native tongue in public, or should be frowned upon for continuing to observe traditions and holidays from the "old country".
We are diverse because of the traditions our ancestors have passed down to us, I think.
My Greats were from Sicily and Ireland. They worked so hard, and they assimilated, but they also wove their old ways into the experiences others shared with them here.

I do get a sense of your frustration though, and I can relate.
Anderson is mainly ticked at me and taking it out on you.
August 22, 2008

2:53 p.m.

Suggest removal

jay writes:

as i've said before, there is more common ground than uncommon ground on this issue.

what separates the majority with the emotional minority is the difference in plans to deal with the undocumented workers already plugged into the economy.

let me say that again....emotion.

that is where your argument fails because you can't defend your position without it.
August 22, 2008

3:02 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Hatred really s_cks, doesn't it people? If you can't argue with the message, attack the person or surrogate targets like me. Wait, (slaps forehead) that's what hate is all about: attacking the person. So why should I expect anything less? Why should I beat my head against the wall trying to make a rational argument? So much for your call to reason, flyfish dude. I tried. It failed.
August 22, 2008

3:50 p.m.

Suggest removal

Cowboy63 writes:

jay writes: "cowboy, why would we purge millions of people working in our economy during a recession while we try to stave of competition from china and europe?"

Because it's the law. Are we a nation of laws, or not? If the State will not enforce the law, citizens will stop obeying it.

Maintaining an illiterate slave class just to stave off competition from China for sub-minimum wage jobs is just as wrong as open borders.
August 22, 2008

3:54 p.m.

Suggest removal

anderson writes:

Oh Fresh, you are so smart! I'm cut to the bone. Another feature of hatred: it gets personal. Another feature of hatred: it hates complexity. Get any more complicated than "They" won't learn English" and you are on tenuous ground. Another feature of hatred: someone *must* be blamed. Fail to speak in terms of someone's fault, and someone will be certain to assign it for you.
August 22, 2008

4:47 p.m.

Suggest removal

redwhiteandBLUE writes:

Thanks Fresh! You and others have put up the stats..and they've been ignored by the open border/ bleeding hearts. Not much you can say anymore to convince anyone that illegals hurts the State,
our country.
August 22, 2008

6:33 p.m.

Suggest removal

BrandiWine_84 writes:

I totally agree with the first post. Having laws in place and not enforcing them screams hypocrisy; no wonder people are divided about the issue! It comes as no surprise that there are so many conflicting opinions and emotions regarding immigration. The bottom line is, immigration is only illegal when it is not in accordance with the laws we have in place. It really doesn't matter if it's right or wrong to you; if there is a law and you break it, then you have done something illegal.

I'm not saying I think illegal immigration is "wrong" or "right," but it is against the law. These laws are man-made, and if the majority of people are opposed to them, there are ways to make change. Those who are truly concerned about the issue should really be more proactive, instead of so reactive, saying the same things over again.

On another tangent, the state as a whole seems pretty reliant on illegal labor, and I think we're so dependent on that workforce that it would be next to impossible to make a quick transition. I learned and became fluent in Spanish through immersion. Did I spend some time in another country or take some intense classes? No, I worked at restaurants for 9 years.
August 22, 2008

7:14 p.m.

Suggest removal

linkous2 writes:

"They" won't learn english because they don't have to.....press 2 for spanish, click here for spanish, etc.. We "Americans" are being laughed at!
August 22, 2008

9:30 p.m.

Suggest removal

coarizona writes:

The issue is growing and it is not going away. Divided? RMN stop running these soft sell articles. The public is not buying these junk articles.
August 23, 2008

12:15 p.m.

Suggest removal

Brain writes:

ssqured writes:

anderson -

re: your 8/21 - 5:12p post

I Could not have said it better!

anderson writes:
Brain asks: What "reform" do you suggest?

"I've answered that many times, and in fact, made reference, I believe, to the Senate bills on this thread. So what reform do you think I want?"

The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act (CIRA, S 2611), was a United States Senate bill introduced in 109th congress (2005-2006). It deals with immigration reform. It proposed to increase some security along the southern United States border with Mexico, allow long-time illegal immigrants to gain citizenship, and to increase the number of guest workers over and above those already present in the U.S. through a new "blue card" visa program.

You have not directly answered that "many times" on this thread; if you are in total agreement with Senate bills on this matter than apparently your “reform” is to increase some security along the SOUTHERN border and to give illegal immigrants amnesty; we tried amnesty, the problem has gotten worse since our last amnesty .
You have stated that illegal immigrants are not allowed to get “entitlements” which is true but the reality is that we do not ENFORCE our laws and they DO get government handouts. I think we need better border security on BOTH borders but the best and most practical way to reduce the amount of illegal immigrants is to enforce the laws already on the books, primarily on employers; also when someone has contact with law enforcement and it is discovered that they are here illegally they should be turned over to the appropriate authorities to be deported. Does ICE need more agents? Probably. Does the US need more guest workers? Probably, and I have no problem with the US deciding to increase the number.

As far as your bs about it being a “racist/xenophobic” issue; The amount of legal immigrants from Mexico is more than 3 times higher than the any other country with China being number 2.

Since you are for increased security only along the southern border should I speculate that you are racist?
August 23, 2008

2 p.m.

Suggest removal

PACE2008 writes:

This is economic history 101. If an empire had a workforce, say the size of 12 million people, that they were paying pennies on the dollar an hour, that they suddenly had to pay triple or more an hour. What would that do to the economy? This cycle has been going on and on for centuries.
August 23, 2008

2:20 p.m.

Suggest removal

Brain writes:

PACE2008; assuming that 12 million people were working for pennies on the dollar you might be correct. I can't afford an Cadillac Escalade but the guy driving by with Chijuajua written on his back window can even though he is working for pennies on the dollar?

Home › News › Local News

Coloradans divided over impact of immigration on state

By Burt Hubbard, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Published August 20, 2008 at 9:14 p.m.

Related Stories

More Local News

Share

Comments

Featured

Columns & Blogs