Broncos Moss, Crowder make progress
2007's top two picks face learning curve
By Lee Rasizer, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published August 20, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.
Brian Lehmann © The Rocky
Broncos defensive lineman Tim Crowder (96) and Jarvis Moss have been slow to adapt to the NFL, but both players continue to make progress.
In a broadband world, Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder, to some, are working at dial-up speeds.
The progress bar is moving but perhaps not fast enough for a segment of impatient Denver Broncos fans who want more in the short term from the team's top two picks in the 2007 draft.
The pair, as things currently stand, are situational players.
Moss is expected to be part of the team's starting pass-rush package and run with the second-team base defense.
Crowder is a fixture in the goal-line front and aligned opposite Moss at the power-end spot with the 'twos.' So it isn't like they aren't being counted on at all.
Still, when contrasted with the ascension to No. 1 status both by offensive tackle Ryan Harris and defensive tackle Marcus Thomas - the two players drafted behind Crowder and Moss last year - and the seemingly rapid development of rookies Eddie Royal and Ryan Clady in this summer's camp, it may appear from the outside that they're somehow lagging behind.
But Broncos personnel head Jim Goodman responded Tuesday by saying that people want the end of the book before all the chapters are written.
From the team's perspective, he said, Moss and Crowder simply are going through a normal learning curve.
"They're getting better every day with practice and learning more about what it takes in the pro game, as far as how to be a pass rusher and play the run," Goodman said.
Somewhat surprising, though, was that, during Saturday night's preseason win against Dallas, unheralded Paul Carrington and Larry Birdine ran with the second-team front four in a series-by-series rotation with Crowder and Moss.
Bill Johnson, one of two Broncos defensive-line coaches, maintained that arrangement was planned in order to get a full evaluation in a game environment of the entire front four.
"Our roster at defensive line is deep, and there has to be consideration of every person," he said.
And Johnson's evaluation of Moss and Crowder at this juncture?
"As far as Jarvis and Tim go, everybody arrives at different times," Johnson said. "The thing I'm always concerned about is if they're not moving towards the right direction. And evaluation takes time - you don't know if they are or they aren't. But the process I'm in right now is, I still think that they're young players with talent moving in the right direction.
"Now," he added, "when you get here and you've got people with experience, that have been in football games, it's just hard to move past those guys. . . . I wish they'd take giant steps, but 97 percent of the time in this league, it's been baby steps I've seen. And I think linemen are the slowest developing people there are in the league."
As far as Moss' development goes, it's important to note that he would only now be coming off his senior season at Florida, since he was an early draft entrant. His rookie season, coming on the heels of his selection as the 17th overall pick after Denver traded up to get him, ended prematurely when he broke his right fibula during a midseason practice, which hindered his development as surely as staph infections held him back in college.
Johnson admitted he thought Moss, who may have plateaued at 245 pounds, struggled early in two-a-days this summer but that he's seen Moss rally as Elvis Dumervil's backup.
"I don't have anything saying to me right now that it's not working out," Johnson said. "He's becoming more comfortable. And I tell you one thing about Jarvis, I think once he gets into those football games, he's got a little bit of gamer in him."
Moss has been working extra after practices with veteran Ebenezer Ekuban, who's been going through the playbook and quizzing him on plays out of different formations, and with Jacob Burney, Denver's other line coach, on losing any hesitation he may have coming off the ball by checking out how opposing tackles are setting up to defend him.
Physically, Moss appears fine, and he didn't miss a training-camp practice.
"I feel like, when you turn the film on of the first two preseason games, me, personally, I was pretty sound," Moss said, adding he feels "great."
"I was doing my job, what I was supposed to do as far as playing gap sound and playing with good technique."
But Moss also knows that isn't what is most anticipated from him publicly.
He already has predicted an eight-sack season for himself, feeding into the expectations.
"Really, the only thing that matters is the people in the building - my teammates and coaches," he said. "And I do block all that stuff out. At the same time, I'm ready to be successful. I want to be successful, and that's what I'm working toward."
Crowder, 23, started 13 games last season and had four sacks to go with a forced fumble and two fumble recoveries but admittedly hit the rookie wall. He's currently running behind John Engelberger at left end but has been more noticeable in recent practices, including penetrating the backfield to disrupt a running play Tuesday.
"The thing with Tim is, I'm sure starting to see some flashes," Johnson said.
But Johnson wants those flashes to be more rapid fire.
"It's too early to say what he'll do," Goodman said about Crowder. "These last two preseason games, we'll get more answers and see."
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August 20, 2008
1:22 a.m.
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SE7EN writes:
It is amazing how impatient bronco fans are. Everyone is expecting Moss and Crowder to be All-Pro in their second year. Yes, they were picked high, but give them time. Not every guy is an early bloomer. Sometimes late bloomers are better in the long run. If only Shanahan saw things this way. Hixon scored 3 TD's in the first Quarter for the Giants. Could it be that maybe our special teams unit blew? I like Shanahan, but sometimes he pulls the trigger on guys and quickly makes them the scapegoat of a much larger problem. Nonetheless, Crowder and Moss will be fine, just give them time to come into their own.
August 20, 2008
2:42 a.m.
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angryman1n writes:
Win more now.
August 20, 2008
4:47 a.m.
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denmex writes:
u dont win with time, u need production, and if thoes 2 players dosent combine for 10 sacks, the broncos will need to draft another DE that means that the first and second round of 2007 were trash.
August 20, 2008
8:02 a.m.
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BroncoRick69 writes:
Denver will probably draft a DE in the next draft anyway. And a safety. Nobody is able to predict how a draft pick is going to turn out. You just keep trying until you get it right. Ekuban is probably on his last legs, and Who knows how long Robertson will last. We also need to get someone to replace Tom Nalen and Ben Hamilton. They are both obviously on their way out as well.
August 20, 2008
8:04 a.m.
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R8R_H8R writes:
1st round and 2nd round BUST. Plain and simple, these guys are high picks, mired behind guys who are journeymen, very average NFL D-Linemen. They have been given time, and have proven to be mediocre. The guys on sports radio have been watching, studying this team for 20-30+ yrs. And one thing they keep coming back to; Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder are a BUST. Even against Dallas' 2nd and 3rd team, not one tackle did they make between them. Their name is never mentioned. What kind of an idiot drafts a guy that tops out at 245lbs. to play defensive line? Mike? Hello? The same coach that drafted Karl Paymah, D-Foxworth, and D-Williams, and proceeded to express that Paymah is the superior Cornerback of the 3. FAIL! The same coach who went and got Dre Bly, spending a fortune on a free-agent Corner, even though Foxworth had proven he can do the job, and the real need was Defensive Line. FAIL! The same coach who paid Keary Colbert 3 million dollars....FAIL! The same coach who paid big money for Niko Kootooovoodooo, a career back-up in Seattle, even though Webster had proven to be a quality starter. And now, Webster is beating out Niko for the job.........FAIL!
August 20, 2008
8:14 a.m.
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JohnnyBallgame writes:
Hey R8R LovR are you ever gonna think for yourself and make your own posts? All you do is say the guys on sports talk radio blah-blah-blah. Let me help you out here, 1st: you need to think for your self and make your own opinions and 2nd: it is a SHOW!!! I interned for 850 and my friend did the same for 950 the Fan, these guys play a role especially Joe Williams who you have quoted, he plays the negative guy to get the ratings up, that is how a succesfull sports radio show works. Have your own opinion and don't believe eveything you hear on the radio!!!
August 20, 2008
8:49 a.m.
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jvill writes:
Talk radio also tells me that George Bush was a quality president... You'll have to excuse me if I don't get behind everything they say.
It's almost like the radio guys are paid to say things that will get people riled up, regardless of the facts.
Apparently, with R8R, that's pretty easy...
August 20, 2008
9:05 a.m.
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R8R_H8R writes:
My Dearest of sLow-thinkers. The point is, these guys are out there, all day every day. I'm not, you're not. It is their freaking JOB to study the team. It is their JOB to analyze the team. I see that the defensive line is awful. But who am I to say? Citing quotes from these guys hammers home the point that, guys who have been around and studied this team for decades repeatedly break down the D-Line and how and why it is an all-time worst line for the Denver Broncos. I dont spend a FRACTION of the time watching the line play, or all the going's on in training camp, and neither does anybody else here who tries so hard to come across as THE Expert. So yours and mine point has to be qualified with a; "well, you're really not seeing it all".
So, just keep on convincing yourself as being the all-knowing, even though you and I hardly catch a glimpse of half the things going on. Well, YOU, in particular. Because I record the games, re-watch, re-wind, and watch the line play at 1/4 speed. I watch in disgust as the team I root for, the Denver Broncos, Offensive linemen, take a dive at the knees of the opposing Defensive line, making them the most hated team in the league and renowned for their Dirty Play.
August 20, 2008
9:36 a.m.
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RockLobster writes:
R8R_H8R writes: "not one tackle did they make between them."
Yoda, is that you?
August 20, 2008
10 a.m.
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Jojowalk writes:
Ready I am not. Much to learn, I have!
August 20, 2008
10:40 a.m.
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Miss_Sin_Link writes:
R8R_H8R, you really should try to make reality a part of your posts.
Did you miss the point of this article entirely? Very few players on either line are dominant by their second year. Other player development guys and analysts invariably say the same thing: QB and the lines are the most difficult positions to get proficient at. So screaming FAIL about Crowder and Moss is waay premature. Shanny drafted Moss right about where Moss was expected to go -- he showed a dominant streak at Florida, particularly in the BSC C'ship game, and scouts heralded him as a solid blue-chip prospect at the time with lots of upside. The Broncos coaches expected going in that it would take time with Moss, since he was still young and needed to fill out. Besides, if you knew the first thing about outside pass rushers, you'd know that they don't need to be big hulksters -- Jason Taylor is almost a carbon copy of Moss's physique: 6' 6", 244. Crowder certainly has the physical tools as well. Give 'em time.
As far as Foxy is concerned, I certainly don't see where he's "proven he can do the job". He's had a history of playing soft coverage throughout his career, and was beat repeatedly by Dallas receivers the other night -- most times the commentary was "he got caught not looking at the QB, so had no choice but to react late". Might just be preseason form, might be a fundamental technique flaw. Don't you think the coaches would have promoted him to 1st team by now if he's so much better than Bly?
Keary Colbert, yeah. Not every signing is a hit. Expecting 100% success rate with every one is ludicrous. If they're so bad at FA picks, what about Wiegmann and Robertson? If they're so bad at drafting, what about Royal, Clady, and Thomas. Um, weren't all those guys brought in post-Sundquist? Most of the bad signings you're always talking about were in that era, and probably contributed to his axing.
And your worst comment of all, that shows you're really not paying attention: that Webster is beating out Niko for the job. Where would you get that? That's probably the most hotly-contested starting battle on the whole team, and consensus was that Niko did a far better job against Dallas than Webster did. In the game I was watching, Webster had a couple of _big_ whiffs on tackles that allowed some of the Cowboys' only big gains of the night. Everyone talks about Niko's solid leadership skills, and the coaches praise his play. Eventually, it takes something for backups to become starters, and maybe this is just the normal step of evolution for Niko. Not that Webster is necessarily a bad choice in the long run -- he might've just had a bad night against the Cowboys -- but claiming that he's won the job is just plain goofy.
Get your facts straight, watch for yourself, and stop spewing the Joe WiIlliams party line.
August 20, 2008
11:42 a.m.
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jugdish writes:
The Broncos need to throw Moss and Crowder into the fire. Sink or swim. This team is rebuilding and needs to see what they have now. Both were picked too high to be "situational" players. Often in this league players develop into quality starters with game experience. And yes there are growing pains.
As for drafting Moss and Crowder, 2007 draft was not a good year for DL depth. Denver passed on 2 starting quality safeties in the '07 draft: Michael Griffin and Reggie Nelson. Both graded high and now start for their respective teams. Both were drafted a couple spots after Moss at #17. The next defensive lineman selected in the draft was Alan Branch at 33. He's not starting for the Cards. Then the next DL taken was McBride at 54 by the Chiefs..then Crowder. 2007 was not a good year to go looking for DL. Only 5 were taken in the 1st round (3 in the top 10).
Not filling its need at Safety at #17 when those were the best players available in the '07 draft may hurt the Broncos. But let's face it. Hindsight is always 20/20 and I'm sure as many 1st round picks fail to live up to expectations as those who meet or even exceed them.
But when you draft by need, sometimes this is what you get. Teams that take the best player available often have better success (see our hated Chargers). Look at their drafts in the last few years.
2007=E.Weddle pick#37=Starter at FS
2006=A.Cromartie pick#16 Starter at CB
2006=M.McNeill pick#50 Starter at LT
2005=S.Merriman pick12 ProBowl LB
2005=L.Castillo pick28 Starter at DE
2005=V.Jackson pick61 Starter at WR
2004=E.Manning pick1 (traded for P.Rivers &)
2004=I.Olshansky pick 35 Starter at DE
2004=N.Kaeding pick65 Starter at K
2004=N.Hardwick pick 66 Starter at C
2004=Shaun Phillips pick98 Starter at LB
Absolutely terrifiying isn't it. Not to mention some of their other key starters are former 1st and 2nd round picks (Tomlinson, Jammer, Wilhelm). Now what will really bake your noodle. Go look at Denver's drafts in those years (most based on need).
August 20, 2008
12:07 p.m.
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CourtneyBrown98 writes:
I must say say. Moss did pretty good with 4 sacks and however many tackles and fumbles from last year. I didn't even know he had that. I was wondering if he could play LB? since he was always known for his speed! it's seems going against those offense lineman he doesn't know how to utilize that well. His slow development has to do with alot of things. Youth, he was hurt last year, vet's are getting more reps then him, the season hasn't started yet, the trainers need to be training him better to use what he has...etc. i could go on and on forever. I'm am trying to be as patient as possible but when a numerous amount of rookies come on the team and make a big difference. That doesn't make rookie's being successful a rare thing.It happens all the time. Him and Crowder sure does need to step it up! We need that learning curve to turn into a straight line soon. He's healthy now there is no excuse.
August 20, 2008
12:32 p.m.
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JKUPPERDECK writes:
I understand the mental learning curve, but Moss looks like he showed up at camp out-of-shape physically. I watched one of the practices at Dove Valley and he seemed to be struggling more than the others. That makes me concerned he doesn't care.
August 20, 2008
2:14 p.m.
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FatTony writes:
Success does not happen overnight. If every 1st & 2nd rounder made it like they were "suppose" to (according to some of you folk), we wouldn't have any roster spots for anyone else...And so for some of you TD, Brady, and the likes shouldn't be in this league. But anyways, there's only a few that are going to come out their rookie season and play like they've been there for years. The rest, have to work at it like they're "suppose" to.
So to give up on them already?! You peeps are instant gratification peeps. You want it now, or you want a firesale. You want 10 sacks a piece. You want them to give up 0 yards in the rush defense game. You want them to block EVERY pass. You want perfect games. You want perfect seasons. You Bronco fan-atics are ridiculous...Keep your pessimism to yourself. If you can't, find a new team to follow and leave us REAL fans to support OUR team.
August 20, 2008
2:32 p.m.
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jakesmith99 writes:
Mario Williams was called a bust and " the biggest mistake in draft history " for passing on Bush the first year.
Now, with hindsight, and a few years, every NFL team would take
Williams #1 over Bush.
For the love of God, give the Man Moss at least a year of
playing time before throwing him under the bus.
August 20, 2008
4 p.m.
Suggest removal
CoJeffry writes:
My response would be to be patient. It is their second year. Has anyone ever heard of TREVOR PRYCE? He did nothing his first two years and then finally got "it" his third year and became one of the best d-linemen in recent years. They are young and need to develop. If we are having this same blog conversation two years from now, I will agree with the doubters. Until then, we should give them a chance to grow and develop. Criticism can be healthy, but let's at least give them a chance.
August 20, 2008
5:31 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
R8R_H8R , I love reading your posts. You are such a negative downer. So you thing Foxworth is better then Dre' Bly? PLEASE! Foxworth is steady but can get beat more often then Dre'. Foxworth is great in the nickle but one on one, gets beat more. So, PASS, not fail. Also, they didn't pick up Niko for the MLB spot, solely. They knew he wanted a shot at it and they gave it to him, but if you would have taken the time to read earlier articles, he was know as a ST animal. He led the 49ers in all special teams categories. If he isn't made the starting MLB then we have an experienced ST player. So, you are wrong, PASS, not fail. You speak about other fans acting like experts. It's not about acting like experts, it's about not staying up all night to think of something else that we can write that is "negative", for the sake of being "negative". You tend to do that.
August 20, 2008
5:36 p.m.
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AKuser writes:
Great post jugdish, next please give us the stats on how many super bowls all those Charger greats have won. I searched the internet but all I found was the "great" Chargers have been to the same number of AFC title games as the lowly Broncos. What is absolutely terrifying is that of your entire list of studs not one of them could be traded even up for Cutler or Brandon Marshall. How is it that that idiot Shanahan ended up with the 2 best players from either team in that same time span?
August 20, 2008
5:37 p.m.
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AKuser writes:
Great post jugdish, next please give us the stats on how many super bowls all those Charger greats have won. I searched the internet but all I found was the "great" Chargers have been to the same number of AFC title games recently as the lowly Broncos. What is absolutely terrifying is that of your entire list of studs not one of them could be traded even up for Cutler or Brandon Marshall. How is it that that idiot Shanahan ended up with the 2 best players from either team in that same time span?
August 20, 2008
5:52 p.m.
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Finn writes:
Good post Dave. Except it was the Seahawks, not the 49ers.
I don't mind folks being negative from time to time. We can't all be perfectly happy with everything the Broncos do. Let's face it, they are down a little bit right now. But R8R, you seem to be negative about every single thing. I tend to trust history with the Broncos, and history tells us that this team isn't down for very long at all. Sure, they have some shortcomings, but so did the Giants last year at this time. I tend to think our positives and the coaching will make this a very competitive and entertaining season.
August 20, 2008
6:44 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
Finn, sorry, meant Seaslugs. Brain freeze.
August 20, 2008
6:50 p.m.
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OregonBroncFan writes:
I still think H&R is either a Raider or Charger fan because I cannot recall a single positive Denver post ever. Every post is negative so just go back to the paper of whatever team you root for because it clearly isn't Denver.
August 20, 2008
8:07 p.m.
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awhite411 writes:
Please cut D. Foxworth....he stinks......
August 20, 2008
8:08 p.m.
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STR8_THINKER writes:
Trying to fit square pegs into round holes perhaps. At 6'6" 245 and having flashed solid pass rush skills in college, Moss has the body type and skill of a prototypical rush linebacker in a 3-4 than a traditional defensive end often matched against much more powerful tackles at times 100 lbs heavier than him. Tim Crowder, more problematic. His problem is that he wasn't a fifth round draft pick. There wouldn't be as much belly-aching if that were the case. As for all you posters advising against accepting (and parroting) everything you hear on sports talk radio, absolutely correct. Talk radio hosts in most cases are no more than professional opinionists. If that weren't the case, why don't more of them hit on a greater percentage of their "educated guesses," considering their much vaunted access. Many of our more intelligent posters here have more value to offer in their opinions than many on-air hosts, such as one-trick-pony Joe Williams.
August 20, 2008
8:47 p.m.
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Dynamicdave writes:
awhite411, no, keep Foxworth. He can play different positions when needed. He is also very good in the nickel package. He has worth to the team. That's why he stays. If a corner goes down, or a safety goes down, he can jump right in.
August 21, 2008
4:39 p.m.
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bchiper writes:
jugdish nice post. Although if you go back to the 04 and 05 drafts I think you'll find the Chargers drafted for need as well. Those teams prior to 04 just plain stunk and had little talent overall. I think Crowder should be farther along after gaining a lot of experience last year. Moss needs to stay healthy and make the most of his playing time this year. I do believe the biggest issue with the D last year was an ill conceived plan and reluctance to move away from it. I expect the Broncos D to be much more aggressive this year as they had been in previous years and that in itself will make a great difference. The line will be average to above average but not great. And that puts pressure on the linebackers and outside of DWill I'm not sure the talent is good enough there. Better hope the offense can score more often than it did last year for this to be an above .500 season.