Transcript of M.E. Sprengelmeyer's interview with Thomas Freeman

Published August 13, 2008 at midnight

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NEW YORK CITY 1976

* Nominee: Jimmy Carter

* Summary: The late Rep. Barbara Jordan becomes the first black woman to deliver a major political convention keynote address. She is riveting in her call for national reconciliation and unity.

* Lesson: Talent is not dependent on race or gender.

ADVICE

“Forget that you have to make the most important speech in your life, and go ahead and make the most important speech in your life. Do it!”

Thomas Freeman, 88, Jordan’s college debate coach, offering words for Barack Obama

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Interview with 88-year-old Dr. Thomas Freeman, mentor and debate coach to the late Congresswoman Barbara Jordan (1976 DNC keynote speaker), by M.E. Sprengelmeyer of the Rocky Mountain News, on May 20, 2008, at Texas Southern University in Houston.

QUESTION: Well, our project is, we're seeking the advice of people who have had a big role in national conventions of the past. I wish Barbara Jordan were here . . .

DR. THOMAS FREEMAN: Don't we all.

Q: Wouldn't it have been amazing. If she were here, you know what I would ask her? I would say, "Congresswoman Jordan, based on everything that you accomplished before, during and after the 1976 convention, what advice would you have for the Democrats who are getting ready to gather in Denver?" So as someone who was so important to her, I thought I'd ask you that question.

FREEMAN: I would say that the continuation of the recognition of talent wherever it might express itself will strengthen the party. When Barbara Jordan delivered her address, it was unique, in that no black person, no black woman had ever been the major feature at a national convention of the magnitude of the Democratic Party and reaching out for her, bringing her into the spotlight, increased the value of the Democratic Party to the members of the party, for this was one of the avenues that attracted others to participate in the Democratic Party. Having started with that, continued to reach out for talent wherever it expresses itself.

Q: Did you see that talent when you first met her?

FREEMAN: I would be very honest, I didn't see that talent. However, I did see talent. I had the experience of judging an oratorical contest in which she participated. I was greatly impressed with her. I gave her first. She didn't win first because the other judges had different opinions. But I saw the talent there. Not the talent you're talking about, but the talent that expressed itself in the behavior of a high school graduate who decided she would come to (Texas Southern University). And the first thing she did was to seek out the judge who had given her first place because she wanted to be part of the university debate team.

Q: What was that original talent before you had a chance to refine her, before others had a chance to influence her?

FREEMAN: She could speak well. She could speak convincingly. She had a strong voice, a voice that carried. And I worked with and on that voice for four years so that at the end of four years she did not recognize herself in terms of her speech patterns and she either credits me or blames me for the speech pattern that she said I inflicted on her. Now, I was not aware of any kind of infliction, I was merely teaching. I was merely guiding. I was merely motivating, trying to bring out of this student the best that was in that student.

Q: When you watched that convention, where did you watch it?

FREEMAN: To tell you the truth, I don't know where I was. That was some years ago, it was 30 years ago. I know I was at the TV and I saw her performance. But I don't remember where I was.

Q: What do you remember of the speech, and is there any part of that famous speech where you said, "I had a finger in that . . ."?

FREEMAN: No, no, no. I didn't inject myself into her performance. I merely listened to the performance. I never said that. The same thing happens with people who see the Denzel (Washington) movie show. You know, Denzel's movie actors were here, we trained them. They say, "You put that in?" I said "No, no, no, no. I was just there. I just planned . . . I don't put anything in anybody, and I don't think I put anything in Barbara's head. I was just there to bring out what was in her.

Q: When you watched the speech then, what parts of it stuck with you the most?

FREEMAN: I suspect, one of the things that I remember is her allusion to the fact that there was something "unusual" about this convention. (Imitating:) "I, Barbara Jordan, am your convention speaker . . ." I remember, I remember that part.

Q: I was looking at the original drafts next door, and that line did not appear in the first draft or the second draft. It appears in pencil on the third draft. And it's one of the most powerful things.

FREEMAN: People remember it, see, 30 years. I remember. I'm not by myself. Listen to the others, too.

Q: What was her ability to connect with the audience? Was it the booming voice? Was it the authority . . . Or what was the . . .?

FREEMAN: The way you described it: It was the booming voice that carried with it authority. You see, if a person were to say to you, "I think that looks nice. That's fine." (Or:) "I THINK THAT LOOOOOKS NIIIIIIIICE!" You see . . .? So I think it's the combination of the two.

Q: You just described my speaking style, by the way.

FREEMAN: Each to his own, now. Yes. What style fits one may not fit another, and to try to take over the style of somebody else may be the pathway to defeat. You have to be yourself.

VIDEOGRAPHER JUDY DEHAAS: It's fascinating listening to you talk, and having covered Barbara Jordan for the Dallas Morning News for so many years, I can see the influence, I can hear the influence that your oration style had on her, much like a young painter looking at Degas . . . It's fascinating.

Q: It's punctuating through your vocal cords. You're punctuating the right syllables. There was something about that speech and the timing of that speech that seemed to really resonate with people. And we're trying to get a sense of why. If she had made the same speech 30 years earlier or 30 years afterwards, would it have had the same impact?

FREEMAN: Perhaps the times were right for a black woman to step forth and represent the entire nation, because that's what she did. She represented everybody, all people, and I think the times I think were right. It was just after the progress that had been made through the early '60s. The civil rights movement was over. At that time we were moving toward the realization of the dream that Martin Luther King talked about whereby a man would be judged not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character, and here is a woman who stands tall because of her rootage and character.

But you see, no derogatory things up to that point had been flashed over the news media. She was a good representative of fine womanhood.

Q: When I was reading the letters, immediately after the speech the Democratic National Committee was flooded with telegrams, hundreds of them. She was flooded with letters and phone calls, but a lot of letters that I was reading, saying, "You should be the vice president. You should allow them to nominate you." And she responded. She responded saying America was not ready for a black woman this time. What was her sense of that at the time, whether the country back then was ready for an African-American or a woman?

FREEMAN: Well, that's 30 years ago, and we have moved along 30 years, and there are still those who are raising the question, is the country ready for a black or a woman. And that is the question that has to be answered. Whether it will be answered negatively or positively, it remains to be seen. We made progress up to the '70s, but so much more progress needs to be made to get America ready. Because the very question that is being raised, there would be no reason for the question if we were ready. Nobody would ask: "Are we ready?" We would just move along, and the very fact that the question is raised means not only is that question there, but there's another question in the minds of persons, who said: "No, we are not ready, and I dare you to try to assume that we are ready, for if you do you are going to suffer the consequences therefrom. So we're going to boycott the Democratic Party. We will not vote for a black man, we will not vote for a white woman yet. We still have a lot of growing to do before we get to that point." I'm not saying that's the interpretation, I'm saying that is a possibility that we are not even ready now.

Q: We're about to ask that question, aren't we?

FREEMAN: Yes, and also about to answer it, too, with the actual election.

Q: She responded to some of those letters saying, "I think that day is fast coming, and I will be ready . . ." Do you think if she were around today, what she would say on whether she thinks that . . .?

FREEMAN: I do not know because she shifted her emphasis from politics to education, and having developed a root in education and having reached a point where her emphasis on ethics in politics had begun to attract the attention of persons all over the country, I think she would have followed that route, rather than to enter into politics to advance herself as a politician.

And of course, had she been around as Barbara, she would have faced the problem of health, and she would have had to address that, and that probably would have limited her in terms of her public behavior and performance.

Q: She was diagnosed (with multiple sclerosis), I just found out, right during the Watergate proceedings.

FREEMAN: She never talked about it, and everyone regretted her decision, but she knew better than anyone else.

Q: Where did she get such strength that she had?

FREEMAN: I think a part of it grew out of her background. She had a very religious mother and her father was a preacher. And as I interacted with her, the father was a dominant figure who believed in fundamental values. He had nothing but girls. He didn't have any boys. And he tried to train his girls to be not only respected but respectable in a male society. I think she picked that up. And then, during her plastic years, she was associated with another minister, who even though he was her teacher he also held her to high moral and spiritual values. When we'd make a trip and it might cross Sunday, we'd go to church. We wouldn't go to the nightclub. And I'd see that we'd go to church. And the varying discussions we had about religion and values, the environment in which she was encouraged her to deepen her roots in religion and had already been established by a solid foundation at home.

Q: I was reading in a book that her father was so strict he wouldn't let her go to movies.

FREEMAN: In that day, that was a norm. My father wouldn't let me go to a movie. My mother wouldn't let me go. That's sinful. But it wasn't just them, it was that period. Yes.

Q: She seemed to have a sense of wanting to excel all the time.

FREEMAN: Yes, and that was demonstrated in her finishing high school and then in her efforts here at the university, one of her regrets is she did not win the election. Two debaters were debating, and it was about two or three votes. But Barbara wanted to be president of the student council so badly, but never made the presidency. She made the sorority, but she didn't make the presidency. But the competitive spirit in her caused her to keep going, see. And the fact that she maintained herself as the only female debater the first year suggests again that competitive spirit. She's not going to let the boys beat her. She's going to be right up there with the boys, and we spent hours on hours working, and she was right there working with the boys. At that time I was single so I could (LAUGHING) I could stay up with them (laughing.) But I married a few years later and I had to curtail that kind of activity.

DEHAAS: You're making me laugh because I'll bet you were fun. I'll bet you still are fun.

Q: Had you ever had a woman on your team?

FREEMAN: No, in fact, no. She was the first woman - not the only woman. But she was the first woman on the team. After her first year - Cindy Carter, J. Ruth Bolden . . . Yeah. After her first year.

Q: Was it mostly competing against men?

FREEMAN: Everywhere we went we were against men. Seldom, I don't remember . . . The University of Chicago, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Southern California, all of them had men.

Q: And did she ever . . . What was her reaction to competing against men all the time?

FREEMAN: It was just one of those things. Nothing special.

Q: And what was their reaction?

FREEMAN: "I can't believe it. We let a woman beat US?!?" (Laughter.) Yeah.

Q: Not only that, but probably when you were competing against schools like Harvard . . .

FREEMAN: Right there (pointing to a newspaper clipping on the wall). She beat Harvard, right there. Yes. Barbara Jordan. Yes, oh, yes. She met Harvard and beat them. And in fact it was her experience in Boston on the debate team that determined her choice of Boston University for her law school degree. I took her and the team to Boston University to the debate there. They won the debate. At that time, my brother Charles was a law student at Boston U., and he was the editor of the law review so he had the opportunity of taking her around and showing her the place. And then she came to visit: "Tom, that's where I want to go to school." And had it not been for the debate experience, she probably never would have gone. Now the books that have been written have said her goal was to go to Harvard. That's not true, see. Harvard was not in her mind. Harvard came in the mind of the people later who wanted to dramatize the success that she had made because she didn't go to Harvard, therefore . . . And that's not true. She decided to go to Boston University when I took her to Boston to debate against Boston University.

Q: So at what point during this development that you saw did she become the Barbara Jordan that we saw?

FREEMAN: Not until she left here, went to Boston University, came back and was defeated several times and then became the first woman to go to the state legislature. That's when she began to develop the greatness of Barbara Jordan. And it took defeat to move her to become what she eventually developed into.

Q: It's amazing to think what she could have been if not for the health problems. I do want to go back to the '76 convention. One of her great messages at the time was talking about, we are not many communities, we are one community. Were some of those themes things she had sounded before or that you had heard from her before?

FREEMAN: I don't think there was any setting in which I had heard that. I think that was a formulation of hers that described the actual times and would be beneficial at a convention to call attention to this. I can think of no setting at which I heard her verbalize these ideas.

Q: So how much did it mean to this community, the Houston community, her hometown, her home school? How much did her appearance there mean to folks in . . .?

FREEMAN: It, it was an experience that had to bring joy, happiness, satisfaction, also a sense of real pride. "I know Barbara, she's one of us, isn't that wonderful." And, "I want to be just like Barbara!" So she became a model for kids all over high schools and junior high schools. "I'm going to be Barbara! I'm going to be Barbara!"

Q: How can they take that, how can they take that magic from '76? Are they doing it naturally by having Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton up there on the stage? Or is there another way they can infuse that kind of . . .

FREEMAN: I don't think you can isolate any one experience and say it's due to that. The opportunities young people have today, which are different from the opportunities that they had before, may be a motivating factor. "I'm going to take advantage of these opportunities just like Barbara did."

Q: Have you ever been to one of these conventions?

FREEMAN: (Whispering.) Unfortunately, no.

Q: Unfortunately?

FREEMAN: Yes, because (laughing uproariously) I could answer your question if I had, but I can't answer because I haven't been. (Laughing . . .)

Q: She's not here so we can't ask her to be the keynote speaker. So I'll ask you to make a speech right now. If you were going to address these delegates, what would your speech be? In these times - it's a different era now - in these times, what do they need to hear?

FREEMAN: They need to hear a message both of conciliation and reconciliation. At a time like this, when there are negative forces all over the world trying to destroy the values that are represented by the name "United States of America," at a time like this we've got to work out a strategy that will overcome the negativity that has developed throughout the world. At a time like this we need to be sensitized to the kind of reputation that we have all over the world. And, believe it or not, that reputation is not a good one. Many Americans are not aware of that fact. Many Americans think that because America is the number one economic power, that everybody on the earth is willing to bow before them. It's not so. They're trying to squee-eeze America and bring her to her knees. And America has to be aware of that. America also has to recognize the importance of internal cohesion so that the forces that are tearing us apart must be met so that we can develop strategies that will bring us together. And that's across all levels - in religion, in politics, in education. We need to give some attention to the development of our internal structures so that when a person looks to America he will see the land of the free, the home of the brave.

Q: The speech you described is exactly the kind of speech she gave. It was a speech of reconciliation. After the war in Vietnam . . . The speech she gave was after the war in Vietnam, and especially after Watergate, she was such a moral figure after Watergate. And I wonder if you think if she were around today . . .

FREEMAN: I think she might still give that speech of reconciliation. The situation is different. And of course the world impact is so different. But there is need in America for addressing the image that we have abroad.

Q: But that was in a sense what her speech in '76 was, wasn't it? Bringing reconciliation internally?

FREEMAN: Yes.

Q: It's just an interesting parallel having focused on her speech. Is there anything that you would, that you think the world needs to know about Barbara Jordan that they misunderstand - about where she got her strength, or about her style of politics, anything that you think is misunderstood.

FREEMAN: The only thing that I would say is that Barbara Jordan was a woman, a human being. She was not the idol that we have made her into. And let's recognize that she was human.

Q: She seems because she was so secretive about her illness, she seemed not to want anyone to see her as anything except strong.

FREEMAN: I would agree, yes.

Q: Why was that?

FREEMAN: I don't know, other than a normal desire to appear before others at your best. All of us want to do that. Only a paranoid person - "Oh, I'm so bad, I feel so terrible today. I just can't make it!" You may feel that way, but you don't show it.

Q: I wasn't going to do this, but it just dawned on me that . . . It would be nice if you could describe what was it like, as if you're narrating, what it was like to see Barbara Jordan enter that stage on television and address the country. Can you describe what it was like to see her walk to that podium? Because your voice is so good, like a narrator's, I'd be interested to hear your description of her taking the stage.

FREEMAN: (Dramatically:) It would be as though a queen were entering, and the queen is presented to her court, and she charms the courtiers . . . Electrifying. And that was true not only at the convention, but everywhere Barbara spoke. Electrifying, because she had the energy there to make it possible for her to project not only her voice, but her self, into the content of the ideas that she was presenting.

Q: I read one of those books that was describing how some friends of hers would read the speech beforehand and say, "Well, it's a pretty good speech." But when they saw her, her delivery was half of the power, wasn't it?

FREEMAN: Well, her delivery may have been more than half of the power. Her delivery attracted more attention than the content of her speech, and the person who said that looking at the speech, "it's not all that," has expressed the opinions of many speech specialists who look at it and say the same thing: "There isn't too much here; just an idea turned over." But the way she presented it, the thing that gave it an impact, yes . . .

Q: Do you think the message can be lost if they remember . . .

FREEMAN: The message can be lost. It doesn't have to be lost. It may be accentuated. That depends on the receiver, what happens to the receiver. If all you hear is noise, all you remember is noise, but if you hear ideas within the noise, you remember both the noise and the ideas.

Q: So one of these nominees - I'm presuming Barack Obama, it could also be Hillary Clinton, but Barack Obama is in the lead - one of them will be the nominee in Denver. They've got to give their own speech.

FREEMAN: And yes, they have to be themselves, and both of them need some assistance in speech technique (laughing) and winning an audience. Although I'm sure they have a corps of persons around them. But both of them could use some help.

Q: I declare you their coach.

FREEMAN: (Laughing.) Ha! That's what Barbara said about Jimmy Carter. She said, "I recommend that Jimmy Carter will have three weeks with Tom Freeman, and I assure you after three weeks he will not be the same." That's what Barbara said when she was here for one of the tournaments that we had named in her honor. So I don't know, maybe so . . .

Q: I'm imagining Jimmy Carter now . . . And I don't . . . OK. But I declare you to be the coach for Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. First lesson. I'm the nominees. This half of my head is Barack Obama; this half is Hillary. What advice to you give? They've got to make the most important speech of their life.

FREEMAN: Forget that you have to make the most important speech in your life, and go ahead and make the most important speech in your life. Do it!

Q: I love that.

DEHAAS: So if Barbara was alive today, and you obviously talked, spoke regularly, what do you think her conversations would be like about this race for the Democratic nomination? What do you think she would say about what's transpiring?

FREEMAN: She might say, "Tom, it looks as though we have arrived, we have a black man and a white woman. Tom, I think we have arrived." That's what I think she might say.

Q: You think she'd be happy . . .?

FREEMAN: Yes, delighted, and say, (imitating Jordan): "I can no longer be numbered among the first, among the firsts."

Q: I wonder, was she angry that it wasn't her time, that she didn't even think it was her time?

FREEMAN: I don't think she exhibited any kind of anger whatsoever. She might have been disappointed when she was not given a Cabinet position . . . I have no reason to think she was angry, because she didn't leave the Democratic Party because of that.

DEHAAS: What would you say to her if you could talk to her today? What is it that you would say to her, vs. what she would say to you?

FREEMAN: Barbara, we appreciate everything that you did, and you are still a bright spot in our lives today. You paved the way, Barbara, and we thank you for it.

Q: Why don't I just ask, anything else you want to add? I told you I'd ask you again, any advice for Denver? Advice for the people getting ready to throw that convention?

FREEMAN: Let's go for it.

Q: Advice: "Hire me to be your keynoter."

FREEMAN: All right. (Laughing.) All right.

Q: I'll turn in your name. Where did you get your style?

FREEMAN: I think it's an accumulation of years. I'm not even aware of a style. I'm not aware of a style. Somebody else looking at me might say I have a style, but this is what I am, you know. I was someplace with my debaters and somebody said, "Does he talk like that always?" That's the way I talk! Talk like that way always. There's no other way to talk but the way I talk! But I have gone through during the years, contributed to, whatever has come out. I never sat down and said, this is the way I'm going to talk . . . I just go on.

DEHAAS: How old were you when you started to preach?

FREEMAN: Nine, at the age of 9. I was what they called a boy preacher. I've been in the ministry all my life, I know nothing else but the ministry. At the age of 9, yes. And I remember to this day my first sermon: "The Call of Abraham." And for at least three years that was all I could preach, "The Call of Abraham." Of course, as I grew older, went to high school and so forth, I began to develop.

Q: I would love to hear anything you had to say about Dr. King and when you taught Dr. King.

FREEMAN: Yes, and the interesting thing, and you asked me about the potential of Barbara Jordan. And I didn't even know Martin Luther King was in my class. It was not until 18 or 20 years later. I had my debate team in Atlanta. We were at a restaurant. And Martin came in with his bodyguards and sat down at a table distant from us. And I said to my students, "That's Martin Luther King!" And I was so proud of that, that I could say, that was Martin and point it out to my students. And before we left, Martin came over to our table, stuck out his hand and said, "Dr. Freeman, you don't remember me, but I remember you. You taught me . . ." And then he went on to describe what I had taught him. And I said, "I diiiiiiid?" And from that time on we developed a relationship and a friendship. And several times, at that time we had baccalaureate services and commencement services. And I've been in situations where I was the baccalaureate speaker and he was the commencement speaker. And before the commencement speeches, he acknowledged the fact that he was in my class and that I had influenced him. My brother is the conductor, was at that time the conductor of the Victoria Symphony Orchestra, and he was in Oslo at the time that Martin received the Nobel Peace Prize. And he saw him passing and thought, "I think I ought to speak to him. No, I don't know him. But I may not get this chance again." So he found his way up to Martin, stuck out his hand and said, "You don't know me . . ." And before he said, "Oh, yes I do. You are Tom's brother." And that was the basis for their continuing. So he remembered that Tom had some kind of influence over him.

Q: Do you have any idea what it was? What were you teaching at the time.

FREEMAN: It was a course in religion. It was not a course in speech. I was guest lecturer at Morehouse College in the Department of Religion, and Martin was in one of my classes. I did not have the association with him that I had with Barbara. I had her for four years, not only in my class but on the debate team. So chances are there was a greater impact on Barbara, and just a pass-by touch of Martin Luther King.

Q: What a thing to say though. Well, I've appreciated all the time. Anything else you want to add?

FREEMAN: Thank you for the opportunity.

* * *

DEHAAS: You'd better get Barack in here real fast, man. You better get him in here. He needs a little tweaking.

FREEMAN: He's all right. Oh, yes.

DEHAAS: He's no Martin Luther King or Dr. Tom Freeman.

Q: He had 75,000 people in Oregon the other day. Anything you'd say to him specifically about his style?

FREEMAN: I'd have to talk to him privately.

Q: Oh, you don't want to . . . We'll put it in the paper. He can read it in the paper.

FREEMAN: (Laughing.)

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