Ex-terrorists at CU: 'Wake up and smell the hummus'
By Zak Brown, Daily Camera
Published April 30, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.
Updated April 30, 2008 at 9:01 a.m.
Photo by Joshua Lawton, Daily Camera
Self-proclaimed former Muslim terrorist Kamal Saleem presents his argument on why terrorists "want to kill" Americans as fellow speaker Walid Shoebat listens at the Glenn Miller Ballroom on Tuesday at the University of Colorado.
Photo by Joshua Lawton, Daily Camera
Courtney Yarusso, a University of Colorado senior, and other students applaud comments by self-proclaimed former Muslim terrorist Kamal Saleem on Tuesday night at CU.
BOULDER — Two ex-terrorists who have caused controversy with their criticisms of Islam told a University of Colorado crowd to "Wake up and smell the hummus" Tuesday night.
Walid Shoebat and Kamal Saleem, whose talk was titled "Why We Want to Kill You," spent 90 minutes in the Glenn Miller Ballroom detailing their terrorist experiences and explaining flaws in American terrorist policy.
"I am standing on (America's) wall, crying out, saying, 'Wake up, wake up,'" Saleem said. "We have a saying that goes, 'Wake up and smell the hummus. If you don't, you'll be smelling it for a long time.'"
The speakers have drawn criticism at many of their tour stops in support of Shoebat's book of the same name. They drew a crowd of roughly 1,000 on Tuesday night.
The College Republicans invited the speakers to CU, and $10,000 in student fees was used to pay for the event.
The discussion was mainly civil until the end of the question-and-answer portion. Several shouts of "What is your message?" came from the back of the hall. Shoebat's response was, "What is my message? My message is, 'Shut up.'"
There were no organized protests, and no one was removed from the room.
For complete Daily Camera story, click here.
Post your comment
Registration is required. Click here to create your free user account, or login below.
Comments are the sole responsibility of the person posting them. You agree not to post comments that are off topic, defamatory, obscene, abusive, threatening or an invasion of privacy. Violators may be banned. Click here for our full user agreement.
Featured
-
Broncos Game Action
Click for more game action photos from Invesco field.
-
2008 Race for the Cure
The 16th Annual Susan G. Komen Race for the Cure.
-
Rocky Multimedia
The news comes alive in our videos and slide shows. Catch up on today's events.
-
A dream fulfilled
A Rocky Mountain News and MediaStorm production
-
Presidential Elections
See how Colorado counties have voted through the years.
-
County election profiles
A look at how residents in each Colorado county may vote.
-
A Dozen on Denver
Connie Willis is the featured author this week in 'A Dozen on Denver'
-
Rocky Truth Patrol
Reporters Laura Frank and Katie Kerwin McCrimmon hunt for truth in politics.
-
Peak Picks
Submit your fall foliage photos to our contest and vote on other submissions.
April 30, 2008
3:34 a.m.
Suggest removal
longpasttime writes:
Citizens of America, pay heed to these men! Islamic fanatics will not rest until we either convert or die. We MUST persevere until the fanatics are eliminated.
Unless you want to learn Arabic...
April 30, 2008
6:41 a.m.
Suggest removal
holekeeper writes:
Man I really had enough of this one last week....I will let all of you go nuts today and stay out of it.
April 30, 2008
6:57 a.m.
Suggest removal
eyewitness writes:
I saw the two "ex-terrorists" on TV. They looked very suspicious to me. Saleem didn't even look or sound Middle Eastern. People should realize that these two are being celebrated by neocons and pro-Israel types because they are tokens. Their "message" is the same garbarge we've been hearing from the government and from pro-war types who want war without end. Like McCain. Shoebat has an especially shady history, so I don't know why anyone would find him credible.
Too bad that student funds were used to fund two stooges with a message that promotes Islamophobia. The country has enough of that.
April 30, 2008
7:09 a.m.
Suggest removal
RJS07 writes:
wow, as much money as they spent on that crook Kofi Anon at CU, these guys look like a bargain to me... and perhaps a little FacistIslamophobia is in order--oh wait we wouldn't want to do anything that might protect our country and our way of life.
since they looked "suspicious" to eyewitness however, we need to be sure and discount everything they said....
am so glad you posted
April 30, 2008
7:15 a.m.
Suggest removal
MarineGrunt writes:
I'm with holekeeper... no more of this!!
But I am sure the idiots will pipe up, soon!
April 30, 2008
7:15 a.m.
Suggest removal
vudumom writes:
Not all terrorist's are Middle Eastern or sound like they are from the Middle East, some terrorist's have converted to the Muslim religion and then have been recruited from all over the world. They are trying to convert anyone they can ,first to their religion and second to their murderous plots. Not all the Muslims are terrorist's. Some are peaceful and just want to be left alone. They don't speak out because then they are targets.
April 30, 2008
7:21 a.m.
Suggest removal
psu96 writes:
"They looked very suspicious to me. Saleem didn't even look or sound Middle Eastern".
you're joking right???
April 30, 2008
7:21 a.m.
Suggest removal
roadstar writes:
Not only is tuition going up (again) by over 9%, but thousands in dollars in student fees are used for this? My C.U. daughter was studying for finals instead of attending this. She deserves a refund in her student fees!
April 30, 2008
7:29 a.m.
Suggest removal
HolierThanThou writes:
Just when you get to believing that you're infallible, you make a mistake.
All religions degenerate into evil right when they start calling all the others evil and wrong. The prototype doesn't matter. You could be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druid, Pagan, or even Atheist. The English word for this kind of intolerance is fundamentalism.
I have lived with, rented rooms to, and done business with Muslims. Maybe I've been lucky but every single one of them were decent honorable people. Their word was their bond and they were easy to get along with. I can't say the same for a lot of Christians, Jews, or Mormons I've had to deal with. All someone has to do is mention Jesus during a business deal and those alarm bells start clanging in my head.
This is not to say that I deny the possibility that there are bad Muslims, too. I'm sure there are.
Shoebat and Saleem are like a pair of reformed drunks having just crawled out of the gutter. They quit drinking and they want to preach the evils of alcohol, smash all the bottles, and burn down your saloon. But not everyone who drinks booze has a problem with it. Same goes for religion.
April 30, 2008
7:45 a.m.
Suggest removal
MarineGrunt writes:
I was correct! Just 6 mins later, the idiot showed up! Prophetic...
If we are going to say the terrorist has to have an accent and look like Alli Baba, then we are a day late and a dollar short!
These two men are only trying to cash in on, what I can guess as, was a fringe association with a extremist group. CU got duped into paying for this... And you wonder why they want to hike tuition up almost 10 %?
April 30, 2008
7:53 a.m.
Suggest removal
Logical writes:
HolierThanThou,
I didn't hear them speak, but from the article, I don't get the impression they want to smash the bottles and burn the saloon. I imagine they were trying to make Americans like you understand that there are fundamentalists out there that want to destroy America, and are trying to get through to you, so America will protect itself.
When reformed child molesters try to educate parents about protecting their kids from other molesters, do you think the molesters are saying "kids are bad, stop having kids"? Didn't think so.
I don't believe Saleem was saying all Muslims are bad. But, he is saying there are bad groups in the Muslim whole, and we need to be aware of this, not deny it. Just because you don't like war does not mean we should let the terrorists continue to terrorize.
April 30, 2008
7:55 a.m.
Suggest removal
AngelontheSidelines writes:
That does it, their tales of Islamofascism scared me.
I willingly surrender whatever tattered remnants of rights I have in order to feel safe from this terrible threat. Unless all Americans do so we will all bow to Mecca and drape our daughters in beekeeper suits and behead our sons.
Sarcasm
April 30, 2008
8:15 a.m.
Suggest removal
andi38 writes:
Come on people, they are EX-Terrorists, doesn't that mean ANYTHING to liberal idiots? You won't get it until you are bombed (oh wait we have been) sad. But you want to build memorials to mecca (um see flight 93's memorial that is currently being protested)
Grateful these guys are talking and are reformed, what they are doing is honorable.
April 30, 2008
8:22 a.m.
Suggest removal
Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
Where does one sign up to become a speaker like these two? I'd like to make $5,000 a pop too!
April 30, 2008
8:30 a.m.
Suggest removal
Spencer writes:
What is their message? Religious fanatics suck. I can go along with that.
April 30, 2008
8:32 a.m.
Suggest removal
Marshdale writes:
Is it any wonder that college republicans sponsored this event. This is just more fear mongering from the right designed to scare more Americans into giving up their civil liberties. So often I hear conservatives complaining about protestors asserting their right to free speech. They say this is offensive to our men and women in the armed forces who are fighting for that right. Apparently there is a disconnect here because, if they are fighting for it(free speech) than there is no better time than now to assert that right. So, back to point of the story. Even though I may disagree with the message college republicans are trying to put forth by inviting these fear mongers to CU, I would deffend to the death their right to assert their free speech as granted in the Constitution and Bill of Rights to every citizeen in this country. It should be made abundantly clear what this forum at CU was designed to elicit, but we should also aplaud their right to do it.
April 30, 2008
8:48 a.m.
Suggest removal
GeeTee writes:
On Sept 12, 2001, Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel told America the truth about Islam -- that they do not want our money or our land; they want to destroy our way of life. Islam is a worldwide force of evil. If all Muslims do not want the destruction of Western civilization, then where is the MODERATE MUSLIM OUTRAGE over the extremist actions??
Right, it isn't there -- because ALL Muslims agree with the extremists, either by actions or sending them money or by their silence.
April 30, 2008
8:59 a.m.
Suggest removal
buffsblg writes:
The interesting thing about these guys is that no one can or has confirmed their stories. If they really did the things they claim to have done, why are they not being prosecuted? I beleive strongly that they have a right to speak, just as I have the right to say that their claims have a very strong smell of male cow droppings.
It is unfortunate that they confirm the prejudices of people like geetee, but then hatred of all of Islam is so much easier and less complicated than understanding the complexities of the situation. Group hate just saves time right geetee. Is it your proposal that we wipe out all 1 billion muslims or just forcibly convert them?
April 30, 2008
9:07 a.m.
Suggest removal
Logic1 writes:
Let me get this straight. Are there people who don’t think that Islamic Fundelmentalist want to destroy us? Raise your hands if you think the world is safe from these nuts? Don’t respond with a question or a dig on the current administration. Just answer the question, in the words from “Marathon Man”, IS IT SAFE?
April 30, 2008
9:15 a.m.
Suggest removal
Marshdale writes:
GeeTee. You have to realize that moderate outrage is dealt with at the end of a gun in these countries ruled in some cases by extremists, but in most cases by those unwilling to share power. The royal family in Saudi Arabia is a perfect example and we support them and keep them in power. Some of them are religious fanatics, but most of them just want to hang on to power. It is much easier to use religious doctrine to punish their people than political motivation. Thats why on the face of it all it appears as if it is Muslim extremeism that is causing the problem. Just how many Muslims do you know? I know a few from college and have found them to be rather peaceful and congenial people. Sure there may be a few fanatics in every group, but they are not representative of the group as a whole. There are fanatical so called Christians out there to. I never have read anywhere in the Bible where Jesus proposed violence as a solution to anything and yet there are plenty of Christians who espouse it every day. Do you see the disconnect?
April 30, 2008
10:10 a.m.
Suggest removal
Marshdale writes:
Pajama. Have you heard of the Patriot Act? You should read it sometime. You might find it interesting. If you are a gun owner like myself you will realize that this conservative peice of legislation is biggest threat to your "right to bear arms" this country has ever seen. I also suggest you read the Homeland Security Act. If you love your civil liberties these two peices will scare you to death. This is what happens to your liberty when there is an overreaction to a tragic event. These peices of legislation are exactly what these so called Islamofacists were hopeing for when we were attacked. They have achieved their goal in part of dismanteling freedom. We should have done nothing legislatively. That would have shown them that real freedom is a rock not a sponge as the conservative lgislature has made it with these two peices of legislation.
April 30, 2008
10:22 a.m.
Suggest removal
jdm8794 writes:
How asleep are all of you? You all are looking at these men as chicken littles instead of listening to what they are saying. I have heard both of them before and others. They are trying to wake people up…to get the citizens of this country to stop thinking of these extremists as normal-these people are not normal. If anyone would Google and look to see what Amadebajab has said in speeches to his people, you would not be so complacent. The man believes that he was born in this time to bring the world to the point where Islam’s Messiah will come-the 12th Amman. I am not saying that all who follow Islam think this way but the fanatics do and they are the ones willing to bring death and destruction to who they believe are the infidels. You can not put western thinking to this and just because you may not believe in religious prophecy…they do. We have to start believing them when they say they will destroy the United States and Israel. What will be will be but please don’t be surprised when something happens. Fools.
April 30, 2008
10:27 a.m.
Suggest removal
rwmorrisonjr writes:
If they're "ex-terrorists", why weren't they arrested? They're still terrorists in my mind. Then they wouldn't be able to empty their bilge onto unsuspecting college students.
April 30, 2008
10:40 a.m.
Suggest removal
Ztliano writes:
Constitutional conformity should be law and political correctness should be oulawed. France prohibits religious symbols (big crosses skullcaps hijabs) from school. We SHOULD DO THAT TOO. We should conform to the CONSTITUTION! Freedom to presecute the religious should be law. because if we let religion live with us, it will rule us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 30, 2008
11:17 a.m.
Suggest removal
SheikYurBooty writes:
Muslims revere Mohammed as "An excellent example of conduct."
Mohammed routinely had enemies and critics assassinated and butchered (http://www.answering-islam.org/Author...). Mohammed said (according to Ibn Ishaq, his earliest biographer) "I have been made successful through terror."
Muslims rever Mohammed as "An excellent example of conduct."
Do the math.
Feel the love.
Read 'em and weep.
April 30, 2008
11:19 a.m.
Suggest removal
johnson writes:
I agree with rwmorrisonjr, why are these guys still roaming the streets? They admittedly have planted bombs and murdered people. And yet they are allowed to become American citizens? I think they are a couple of BullSh/t artists making money off gullible liberal colleges.
April 30, 2008
11:33 a.m.
Suggest removal
Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl writes:
$5000 for something that is already known. Why couldn't they tell the people something we didn't know? $$ well spent...Not!
April 30, 2008
11:43 a.m.
Suggest removal
jgd writes:
Miss_Kitty_Kat_Girl,
***$5000 for something that is already known. Why couldn't they tell the people something we didn't know? $$ well spent...Not!***
Just curious, did you feel the same way when "I'm a nut job" spoke at one of our universities?
April 30, 2008
12:07 p.m.
Suggest removal
Oh_Wise_One writes:
For once I have to agree with the Dhimmicrat(ics) on here. It was a waste of time to have these two speakers at CU, it would have been better spent talking to people that will listen and not follow the liberal herd to the slaughter. Progressive doesn't mean intelligent.
April 30, 2008
12:25 p.m.
Suggest removal
RickyLee writes:
jdg, are you talking about Kofi Annan, or Ward Churchill?
April 30, 2008
12:27 p.m.
Suggest removal
olsonmt writes:
The President of Iran has vowed to destroy Israel and the US in the name of Allah. Is he simply an extremist or does he respresent the popular opinion of Iranians and much of the Islamic world? I find it interesting that people are so quick to dismiss the Islamic promises of violence and exterminiation as if they were nothing. People try to equate Islamic and Christian fundamentalism. When is the list time a person strapped a bomb to themselves and walked into a crowded market in the name of Jesus? Anyone? Anyone? When is the last time a Christian cut the heads of foreign journalists? Excuse me if I can't see the similarities in fundamentalism between the two faiths. Froward69 and HolierThanThou - I want to meet you someday. I want to see if you are really as confused in person as you portray yourselves to be in your posts.
April 30, 2008
12:31 p.m.
Suggest removal
Big_D writes:
So the CU wing of the GOP just wasted 10K on speakers that were frauds or admitted terrorists. I don't know which is worse and if they take after the Egyptian they paid for information they are probably doing reconnaissance for a strike. This is just a stupid waste by some very stupid people. I bet they could have got Colin Powell who is a CREDIBLE expert for the same or less.
April 30, 2008
12:39 p.m.
Suggest removal
Big_D writes:
I generally like McCain because he is fairly moderate to liberal for a Republican but as I watch him more and more he always either looks startled or angry when he is asked a question. I think he is a little nuts from his capture and torture. Has anyone sat and played a game of solitaire with the guy to make sure they didn’t scramble his brain in those camps? I don’t think it is fair to compare him with these frauds however.
April 30, 2008
12:39 p.m.
Suggest removal
freethinker07 writes:
I find it incredible that presumably educated people can talk about the world's religions as if they were all the same. Let's apply the same "logic" elsewhere.
All political philosophies that are enacted lead to totalitarianism. Let's shun political debate because it leads to totalitarianism.
99% of scientific theories are eventually discarded. Don't study science.
Religions are as different from each other as scientific theories are from each other; and as political systems are from each other. The basis for wisdom is the process for making distinctions among various events, ideas and objects. Skunks closely resemble cats until you learn a little more about them.
Learn about religions and you will find great differences. Some are like cats, others are like skunks.
April 30, 2008
12:42 p.m.
Suggest removal
Big_D writes:
Olsonmt,
I think Iranians in general do not like the US because we backed the Shaw who with our support was a totalitarian leader who tortured and killed many people. We need to apologize for the Shaw a little before we can expect the Iranians to change.
April 30, 2008
12:54 p.m.
Suggest removal
Spencer writes:
We had a real chance to address Islamic religious fanatacism after 9/11. We went into Afghanistan with more than 90% of the world supporting us. We had al-Quaeda and the Taliban directly in our sites. Then, Bush blew it, took his eye off the ball and started an unnecessary war in Iraq. Now the world does not support us and the Islamic fanatics are even more determined. What a terrible decision.
April 30, 2008
1:15 p.m.
Suggest removal
BrandiWine_84 writes:
how funny it is to me that people are posting to say they're not gonna post in regards to this article, then they do! I have a novel idea - if you decide to "stay out of it", then maybe you should do just that. And you probably don't need to announce your intentions (or the opposite of them) to the forum. You come off as a very confused person when you say something and do something else. But it's okay, you're in good company!
April 30, 2008
1:21 p.m.
Suggest removal
SockRayBlue writes:
Alexis deTocqueville studied Islam and came away stating that it was a "religion deadly to men. So far as I can see, it is the principle cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, it's social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself."
I've decided to take an intellectual trip into the world of Islam. The sources available in this country are quite timid and don't get to the meat of the matter--they merely skip around the edge as politically correct as can be. But with enough effort one can find some very enlightening material.
I have so far found Islam to be a very coarse religion perhaps better left in the middle of the desert and far away from modern, sophisticated civilization. Our own societies have grown far beyond what Islam states and we have successfully separated religion from government. That, in itself, Constitutionally separates this country from Islam and the beliefs of a long dead, somewhat insane prophet called Muhammed. His writings, the Qur'an are simply a "book of war" based on the assumption that Islam has been slighted and the religious war will never end until all are subjects of Muhammed. Well, it seems they are on their way by subjugating the intellectually weak willed.
I have no fear of radical extremists and would welcome the opportunity to "spank" one if the chance were to present itself.
I find it rather odd that our governmental leadership is wobbly kneed when dealing with these people. I am reminded of Neville Chamberlain and his dealings with Adolph Hitler. I would much prefer leadership similiar to Teddy Roosevelt (the one with balls that could walk).
April 30, 2008
1:28 p.m.
Suggest removal
davies writes:
Big_D: "I generally like McCain because he is fairly moderate to liberal for a Republican but as I watch him more and more he always either looks startled or angry when he is asked a question."
Perhaps that's because even after all his years in politics, he may still be a genuine person, instead of a polished politician. Many times the questions asked of a candidate in a public forum are intended to surprise or provoke.
Is 'slick' what you want? I understand that being a smooth talker is an asset in politics, but it should not be foremost.
April 30, 2008
2:08 p.m.
Suggest removal
POHA writes:
This article left out too much information. What was their position? What was their message?
April 30, 2008
2:29 p.m.
Suggest removal
Shaupeen writes:
"When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in a flag and carrying a bible."
April 30, 2008
2:57 p.m.
Suggest removal
jdm8794 writes:
SHAUPEEN:
"Liberalism, with its ever changing totem pole of hierarchy of its causes, is like a continuous game of Jenga, except that no matter who causes it to fall, it will be the Republican’s fault." - Rourke
April 30, 2008
3:33 p.m.
Suggest removal
Shaupeen writes:
Neat quote, jdm. Why is it directed at me? Are you implying that I'm a liberal? Is that supposed to be a reply to my quote? Because it's pretty far off the mark. And not even clever. Also, what's Jenga?
April 30, 2008
4:14 p.m.
Suggest removal
jdm8794 writes:
i googled your quote and discovered that it was made by a writer Sinclair Lewis who was pretty 'Progressive' in his day. So my apologies that I assumed that when you quote a liberal that you are one...my bad. Jenga is a game with blocks of wood-they are placed like a tower and then you pull out sticks-the goal is not to make it topple.
April 30, 2008
4:29 p.m.
Suggest removal
nicktaste writes:
fake terrorist propaganda ftl
a query of Walid Shoebat on wikipedia provides some insight
Our war policy CREATES terrorists, obviously
April 30, 2008
5:28 p.m.
Suggest removal
HolierThanThou writes:
Fundamentalists are the same in most religions, especially in the big three that came down from Abraham: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Christian fundamentalists have historically committed many acts of mass murder starting with the foundational murder of the original disciples of Jesus, the Gnostics which they called heretics. Later, a Papal Bull of 1280 started the Inquisition, which burned "heretics" at the stake for merely questioning its authority or simply being accused without a shred of proof required. European societies learned something from this. Religion should never be taken too seriously. Humanity comes first. This religious freedom ideal came to America during the Enlightenment era. It is codified in the First Amendment of our Constitution where it says that our governments shall "respect no establishment of religion".
Modern Christian fundamentalists are presently constrained by our laws in America. But they still do heinous and illegal things. Raping teenage women and calling that marriage is just one recent example. Mormons committed acts of mass murder in Mountain Meadow against fellow Christians. Native Americans have been subjected to cultural and physical genocide at the hands of God-fearing Christian folks. Christians used plenty of religious arguments citing the Bible to justify keeping slaves and maintaining their "right" to murder them for disobedience and running away.
So, don't kid yourselves. Christians are every bit as mean if not meaner than Muslims.
No wonder Muslims are scared of Christians. I know I am. That's one of the big reasons why I keep firearms. God bless the First Amendment of the US Constitution. And God bless all those who don't believe anything a preacher says without some proof.
I find it ironic that most modern Christians don't want to have anything to do with what Jesus actually taught. Many of them are greedy, inhospitable, ornery, and intolerant. Jesus taught that evil begets more evil. He tried to explain the practical benefits of forgiveness and just plain being nice to other folks, things like giving a man your cloak if he's asks, helping the poor, and so forth. I don't see much of that coming from Christians, and certainly not from the warmongering ones who want to kill all the Muslims.
So, maybe I am confused because, having lived with and being raised a Christian, I have a hard time reconciling what Jesus taught with what Christians do.
Could it be that Muslims do the opposite? While hard-ass Christians piss on the kindly teachings of Jesus, congenial Muslims ignore Mohammad when he's in a bad mood and take the good parts of his wisdom to heart.
April 30, 2008
6:50 p.m.
Suggest removal
SockRayBlue writes:
HolierThanThou
My argument is about what Islam has evolved to. The other Big Three have grown tolerant through time. Islam is still in the knuckle dragging stage and keeps its followers ignorant.
p.s. It figures that all religions were harsh when dealing with men since those, back then, were not much more intelligent than a flea bitten human mongrel in the desert. The Big Three have allowed dialog through the years and from that have evolved Lutheranism, the Baptists and other religions. All have their ups and downs, but none as barbaric as Islam.
April 30, 2008
7:33 p.m.
Suggest removal
scastaneda writes:
I love the poster who threatens us with pay attention, "unless you want to learn Aribic." Pretty empty threat.
I think most liberals would consider learning Arabic as a "unique multicultural experience."
April 30, 2008
8:47 p.m.
Suggest removal
AngelontheSidelines writes:
Thanks to Dr. Harrell Rhome
http://www.rense.com/general81/explo.htm
"Can we obtain détente with Islam? Should we apologize and seek to atone for some of the obvious wounds we have inflicted? Should they? As in most relationships, I feel that actions are more important than words, including apologies about the past. What lies ahead is more important, but I also realize this is a Euro-centric, occidental view of things. Nonetheless, three specific steps could make a great deal of difference. The ideas are simple, but require great willpower and major paradigm shifts to accomplish. I address three major changes that would definitely make a difference.
1. Peace and justice in Palestine.
Americans must create a nationalist government that can align with the forces of peace and justice in the world and pressure the recalcitrant Israelis for a fair division of lands and rights. Of course, some Jews have a better idea. The anti-Zionist Neturei Karta movement proposes dismantling the entire Israeli artificial ministate, but since that is unlikely, let's just remove our ignorant unthinking support of Israeli atrocities. Let Israel function on its own, like a genuine nation-state, without relying on the USA to clean up its messes and mishaps. And, not to divert too far, but perhaps the Israelis could give up their nukes! Is that too radical, or what? Enough said. Peace will come when all sides negotiate rationally and honestly.
2. Stop being the world police.
A true patriot nationalist government would never have our military forces spread all over the world, so -- get our troops out of Muslim lands, especially in Saudi Arabia. Moreover, withdraw our forces from all foreign lands! Why are they there? A constitutional government must renounce our unacceptable goals of geopolitical hegemony.
3. Muslims should share the wealth.
Muslim states with mineral wealth should seek new ways so that the residents of the petrol-states share more meaningfully in the profits. Since charitable generosity is incumbent on Muslims, perhaps some of the wealth can assist other needy Muslims as well?
"Experience and history teach us that people and governments have learnt nothing from history, nor acted on principles deduced from it." Hegel."
Jingo rants of they hate us, they want to behead us or any repeat of the two ex-terrorists only serve polarity. The war on terror is not about freedom, safety, or democracy. This war is a war on us, the citizen, designed to be a war without end it depends on American complacency and acquiescence to losing our rights.
April 30, 2008
8:48 p.m.
Suggest removal
HolierThanThou writes:
Islam hasn't evolved to anything. It's a diverse collection of schisms just like Christianity. You have your Sunnis and Shiites for starters. Within these two great schisms you have other schisms. Within the Sunnis you find Wahhibis or Salafists. These are the ones who taught Osama Ibn Laden to be the ornery asshole that he is. Mind you, they are also the prime schisms embraced by the Saudis from whom you fill a third of your gas tank. Yes, these are the same ones that George W. Bush likes to hold hands with when they come to visit him in Crawford.
Ironic isn't it? Some Wahhabists clearly despise us Americans enough to sacrifice their own lives killing us. Other Wahhabists are head over heels in love with Bush. And those are the ones who provided the cash for their suicidally maniacal co-religionists. Go figure.
Then you have your Shiites in Iran and a bunch more in Iraq who are making it impossible to control some 20 million of them with a mere 160,000 of our finest troops and their logistical comrades. We can bomb them until doomsday and I don't believe they are going to quit. I know I wouldn't if they invaded America.
Maybe we should find some common ground and come to a mutually beneficial agreement because we have at least that much in common.
After all, Turkey is our ally and a good one. Guess what the majority religion there is? If you guessed Islam, you're right. Did you know that women where granted the right to vote in Turkey before they were allowed to vote in our United States? Attaturk wrote it into their new constitution after WWI. Before that, the Ottoman Turks codified religious freedom into their laws. So, Christians and Jews both prospered under their rule. That was one of the things that made it very difficult to keep the Ottomans out of Europe. Fortunately, the cold climate came to the rescue of Christendom.
By the way, learning a foreign language, even Arabic, never did anything except broaden the horizons of the educated person.
Becoming a better educated person only hurts a little bit, being a flaming ignoramus makes you into a pain, not only to yourself, but to everyone else.
April 30, 2008
9:34 p.m.
Suggest removal
longpasttime writes:
Scasteneda - I guess I believe that beheadings and suicide bombers and WTC destruction are serious threats to my life. Silly me!
You'll notice I said "fanatics" in my post. Moderate Muslims do not offend or scare me. It's the nuts that threaten our very existence that worry me. Or do you not believe they will try to kill you,given the chance? I love my freedom and I'm not about to surrender it to some Islamic nut who wants to return us to the 12th century!
April 30, 2008
9:42 p.m.
Suggest removal
davies writes:
HolierThanThou: My my my, aren't you the sage one? You really do come off just like your user name; it's kind of ironic.
The Inquisition does not excuse or mitigate Islamofascism. Good people presumably opposed evil then, regardless of whether it was committed in the name of Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church; just as good people now should also oppose evil committed in the name of Islam.
Christians are a fairly large group of people (2 billion?) and for you to say without qualification that they scare you just shows that you are an anti-Christian bigot. Christians are as diverse as any other group of people, and if you think about what Christ taught, you will realize that most people who attempt to follow his example are not the type you are going to hear about very much in the media. Bigot!
April 30, 2008
10:18 p.m.
Suggest removal
davies writes:
AngelontheSidelines: Another user ID that has me wondering if you appreciate the irony. What the %#@* good is an angel, if the angel just sits on the sidelines? Well, at least you can feel angelic huh? Give yourself a hug.
Your suggestion #1, titled "Peace and Justice in Palestine": The "better idea" would be to dismantle the "artificial ministate" of Israel. But since that is "unlikely" you don't recommend it. (huh?) OK fine then Mr./Ms. Social Justice, you suggest the Israelis just concede a bunch of land. Oh and also do not provide Israel with any support, said support being of course "ignorant and unthinking". And this would be as opposed to the support that the Palestinians receive, which is presumably enlightened and wise. Oh and one more thing of course, Israel should give up their nukes.
So there you have it: for Peace and Justice in Palestine, Israel should be forced to accept three gigantic concessions, compared to none for the Palestinians. Sounds like justice all right.
Here. I'll solve the problem more realistically: We give up on Israel, but let them all immigrate here legally. There's only 6 million or so of them; take out a million or so Palestinians and a million hard core Zionists who would rather stay and die, and you have only 4 million Jews immigrating. I say welcome to the USA to a prosperous, hard working, well educated people, and we will give you many jobs in Homeland Security.
The Islamic hardliners lose their Big Excuse, until they come up with more stories of victimization for all the guilty angels on the sidelines.
April 30, 2008
11:05 p.m.
Suggest removal
MissSio writes:
oops HTT, you forgot to add the "fundamentalist" clause to "christian", now everyone will be jumping down your throat.
fwiw I agree with you on this one.... Not that many hundreds of years ago the "fundamentalist" christians used legal torture! Legal. LEGAL. The rack, dunking chairs, head crusher, interrogation chair, oooo mustn't forget the pear. Then there was the saw, the judas cradle, impalement, the Iron Maiden, and probably the most memorable, burning alive at the stake. Your crime that gave you these sentences could be being a woman using herbs medicinally (witch!), having someone name your name while under the same horrendous torture, daring to read the bible... or whatever else the priest decided was "unholy" at the moment. Less painful to have your head just cut off I guess. Both claiming to be religions of peace and whatnot, you'd think they'd get along better... hah.
April 30, 2008
11:11 p.m.
Suggest removal
HolierThanThou writes:
Evidently, davies never owned anything like a home or some land.
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is over land. Palestine Arabs owned a lot of it. Israel wanted it. There was a war. Israel took a lot of land away from Palestine Arabs. They took houses, apartments, farmland, and orchards. They may have paid for some of it but they didn't pay for it all because it wasn't for sale.
Maybe the Israelis have a good excuse for taking that land. It's a small place and they need room for tank battles with their neighbors. So, I can understand their reasoning up to a point.
I can also understand the Palestine Arabs, too, because if someone ran me off my land with a tank and didn't pay me a penny for it, I'd be mad. I reckon I'd be mad enough to want to kill them.
I'd get even madder when they play the sympathy fiddle to the rest of the world and pretend to be a bunch of good guys when I know damn well they stole my land.
So, you see what's happening here? By taking sides in that land dispute we've been drawn into a family feud. Family? No...
Actually, yes. Arabs and Jews are family. They're cousins, all of them claiming common ancestry to Abraham of Old Testament fame. They even look alike with the exception of some Jews who look more European because they've cross-bred with us gentiles from the north.
You know what really sucks about taking sides in a family feud? People hate you. They hate you for taking their opponent's side. And the ones you think should be grateful? They're not. They hate you, too. Why? Because you're contributing to the breakup of the family.
So, my advice to my fellow Americans is to tell both sides to go shove it. Leave them alone. If they want to slug it out. Let them slug it out without us. When they want to make peace, then we can avail ourselves to be of assistance. But we're no use as an honest broker when we take sides.
Those people are addicted to conflict in part because we refuse to keep our noses out of their business. A wise counselor would say that we're facilitating the bad behavior and their progressive addiction to tit-for-tat violence.
May 1, 2008
8:34 a.m.
Suggest removal
Logic1 writes:
It is all well and good that we spout the history of religions and the "crimes" committed by them centuries ago. But history should be studied not to judge the past, but to learn from it and apply it to the present. Man may not be able to agree about the physical evolution of species, but certainly we can agree on the evolution of thought and ideas. (Although some seem to be stuck living in the past). So what have we learned from the past and the genocides. Is it religion? Or is it people acting in the name of religion?
I for one, am interested in protecting my family and to help make my kids dreams come true. I know there are people out there who's actions are threatening this. It doesn't matter if there Islamic, Christian, Liberal or Conservative.
I think a great majority of Americans feel this way too. I also think some of those think that there way is the only way. I am against those people too.
Label them what you want. But they are people who want to take my families dreams.