Phone number in polygamist case linked to Colo. woman

The Rocky

Originally published 03:09 p.m., April 23, 2008
Updated 03:09 p.m., April 23, 2008

Rozita Swinton

COLORADO SPRINGS — A court document says a phone number used to report alleged abuse at a polygamist retreat in Texas had been used previously by a 33-year-old Colorado woman.

It's not yet clear whether authorities suspect Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs made any of the calls that triggered this month's raid of the compound.

An arrest warrant affidavit made public today says a phone number she had used previously was used to call a Texas crisis center before authorities conducted the raid and removed more than 400 children. Swinton's whereabouts are unknown.

Authorities have said a 16-year-old girl called a crisis center claiming she was abused at the compound. Authorities have not found that girl but say they have found evidence other children were abused.

Swinton was arrested April 16 on a misdemeanor charge of false reporting in a February incident in Colorado Springs with no known ties to the Texas case. She was later released.

Two Texas Rangers were with Colorado officials when they searched Swinton's home. Texas authorities said the search turned up several items suggesting a possible connection between Swinton and calls regarding compounds in Texas and Arizona owned by the sect, called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The items weren't identified.

Swinton has not been arrested or charged in connection with the calls made to the Texas crisis center, but authorities call her a "person of interest" in that case.

The document released today shows Swinton had an extensive record in Colorado Springs of posing as a troubled teen and making false claims. The affidavit connects Swinton to several reports that alerted Colorado Springs officials.

The document links Swinton to calls made throughout October from a "Dana Anderson." The caller claimed to be a young woman being abused by her pastor at Colorado Springs' New Life Church, and later as a 13-year-old student at Liberty High School who said she was being drugged and sexually abused by her father.

In February, a woman calling herself "Jennifer" called 911 from a prepaid Tacphone, claiming that her father had locked her in her basement for days, the document said.

Officers linked the calls to Swinton in March.

In mid-April, Texas Rangers called Colorado Springs Police regarding their investigation into the Yearning for Zion Ranch.

Texas Ranger Brooks Long asked about two telephone numbers, both with Colorado Springs area codes. One of the phone numbers, the document says, "was possibly related to the reporting party for the YFZ Ranch incident," and was one of the numbers police had connected to Swinton.

While Colorado Springs Police did not file for an arrest warrant until three days after hearing from Texas, Swinton was arrested April 16 in connection with the February call.

Documents related to Swinton's arrest were sealed by a judge at the request of Texas authorities. The Associated Press filed a motion to unseal the records Monday, and the arrest warrant affidavit was released today.

• April 23, 2008

  3:39 p.m.

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  lawton90 writes:

  This b*tch needs to be arrested and put in jail for this. People cannot do this sort of thing; it's against the law.

• April 23, 2008

  3:39 p.m.

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  Seabreezes writes:

  I work at a phone company, and can tell you that we recycle phone numbers. If you change your number, for instance, the old one goes out of circulation for 90 days, after which it can be reassigned. In that 90 days, you are the only one that can have that number back. So if this woman previously had the number in question, it may not have been her that used it, depending on how long ago 'previously' was.

• April 23, 2008

  3:49 p.m.

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  kstaker writes:

  Seabreezes- it doesnt strike you as a BIT of a coincidence that this woman who *previously* had this number has a record of doing this exact same thing? Thanks for your *insider* phone company knowledge but I think its clear that she was somehow involved and this is not some innocent coincidence. This woman should be locked up and sued for the cost of what she created.

• April 23, 2008

  3:50 p.m.

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  Darling writes:

  What are the odds that, if this woman was NOT the previous owner of that phone number, two idiots with the same number pulled the same type of prank?

  None to ZERO, I'd think.

  Weird case of Proxy by Munchausen - wreaking havoc on others to watch them get attention (reverse of Munchausen by proxy - create havoc intermally to pull attention to yourself).

• April 23, 2008

  4:42 p.m.

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  jay writes:

  whatever ended the abuse is fine with me

• April 23, 2008

  4:52 p.m.

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  me2 writes:

  I find it hard to believe the Texas law enforcement folks only had this one persons calls to go on.

  All the children will be examined by doctors, interesting to see how many have been abused.

  As Jay said, anything that works is fine.

• April 23, 2008

  4:55 p.m.

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  schumacc writes:

  Isn't it interesting that there is a registered Obama Democratic delegate in Colorado named Rozita Swinton. Coincidence? I doubt it. Don't believe it? Look it up.

  http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/19242...

• April 23, 2008

  5:11 p.m.

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  Seabreezes writes:

  I never did believe in coincidence....just saying it's possible it wasn't her. It's also possible an elephant can fly if you give it a mouse on its head and a feather in its trunk.

• April 23, 2008

  5:17 p.m.

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  Richherd writes:

  jay and me2 are you kidding me???? you liberal scum bags. This piece of garbage lied and peoples children were stolen from them with no proof of anything just an allegation from this dirt bag. I wish someone would call and tell the police your abusing your children and then have them taken from you. lets see how fast your tune would change then

• April 23, 2008

  5:30 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  schumacc writes:

  Here is the link to the local El Paso County Democratic Party Obama State Delegate roster. She is on there.

  http://www.peakdems.org/obama_state_d...

  Not that it is relevant, but it points to a busy body do-gooder perhaps. Also, I had read this on another news report. Pretty damning if it turns out to be true.

  "Earlier reports said that when Texas Rangers and Colorado State Police searched her home, they found tons of information on the FLDS cult. Apparently, she made the whole story of poor "Sarah" the abused child-bride of a 50 year old man out of sensationalist reports that she had read from anti-cult groups. "

• April 23, 2008

  6:12 p.m.

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  jay writes:

  ricky are you kidding?

  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24014376/

• April 23, 2008

  6:39 p.m.

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  cew writes:

  Why would Ricky be kidding? This raid was conducted on an unsubstantiated, unverified call that is rapidly looking fraudulent. The rights of individual due process were ignored by the state of Texas while they went in and mass-rounded up children based on no evidence they (as a whole) were being abused.

  It is scary when our government shoots first and then starts asking questions. When fundamental civil rights are being overlooked because someone suspects abuse, we have reason to fear in this country. This is not the Minority Report.

• April 23, 2008

  6:42 p.m.

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  Nonein2008 writes:

  Better yet, on a Fox New interview, Flora Jessep (an ex FLDS member), who received (maybe coached) the calls, also stated the girl had one time claimed to be locked in a basement. They knew this was linked. Yet, they went ahead with the sworn affidavit to raid the compound.
  Let's summarize - false information about an imminent threat, leads to an invasion. One sided information is force fed to the media and masses and readily swallowed. The false threat is not found. We justify because bad people were stopped. When will we learn?

• April 23, 2008

  7 p.m.

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  tomintx writes:

  IF this is really an abuse case, particularly where the accusation is young girls being forced into sexual relationships with older men, then why have they removed the young BOYS from the compound? I have not seen any allegations that any of the young boys were victims of any abuse. Unless one's definition of abuse includes young boys being exposed to an environment where women and girls are treated as property.

• April 23, 2008

  7:09 p.m.

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  tomintx writes:

  Let me respond to the "Are you kidding" comment. There is a link to MSNBC, where they quote the sheriff. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry"

  It looks to me like, if you can manufacture an outcry, you can send gun toting law enforcement agents ANYWHERE you want.

• April 23, 2008

  7:33 p.m.

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  Outraged writes:

  The Nazis failed in exterminating the Jews. TEXAS SUCCEEDED in EXTERMINATING the FLDS at YFZ, by taking ALL THEIR CHILDREN, for religious reasons!

  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24226176/

  "Walther on Friday continued an emergency order giving the state custody of the children after a sometimes chaotic two-day hearing in which the state argued that the teachings of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints jeopardized children."

  I do not agree with the teachings of the FLDS, but I fear the COMPLACENCY of the PRESS in light of the Gestapo tactics of the state of Texas--USING MILITARY FORCE--to steal ALL THE CHILDREN of the FLDS at YFZ, based on religious beliefs.

  WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?

  I am not a supporter of FLDS, and I am not a Mormon. I am a Christian.

• April 23, 2008

  8:23 p.m.

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  Hayden writes:

  WHY did it take so many phone calls from the caller for police and law enforce to react to her report sexual, physical and emotional abuse of so many children ???

  And, is there a possiility that the real caller was killed by the cult?

  To me - the police should have gone to the scene of mega sex abuse, etc on the FIRST call - not wait - and now start the search for SARAH - who must be in GRAVE danager because the cult would WANT her so she could not be witness against them - if she is still alive - please correct me if this isn't correct?

• April 23, 2008

  8:23 p.m.

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  jay writes:

  let me rephrase that...

  are you kidding that you believe there was no abuse?

• April 23, 2008

  8:42 p.m.

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  Davi3d writes:

  Let's see. Texas. Isn't that where Waco is? Anybody remember how many women and children federal agents burned to death "protecting" them from alleged "abuse"? Anyone still think the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City was some random "domestic terrorist" incident and not a direct retaliation against the federal government because the only consequences handed out to the feds responsible for the the bloody butchery in Waco was promotions and commendation letters?

  Y'all got enough government, yet?

• April 23, 2008

  8:59 p.m.

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  tomintx writes:

  Hayden - Are you STILL buying the story that there WAS a SARAH? I think it has been pretty conclusively reported that Sarah was an invention of this Colorado-based idiot who has been arrested.

• April 23, 2008

  9:23 p.m.

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  cruzinmy64 writes:

  Typical ... Ruin the lives of hundreds of white children and people, right? All these kids torn from their life to live in crime infested buildings so some pretend foster parent can get an extra check in the mail, right? Dumb b10tch. Go scream "You be pej-e-dis" but over and over and over people are screwed by blacks. It 's not me "thinking" that, its COLD HARD FACTS. White people can care less about COLOR - its HOW YOU ACT and the HARD FACTS. I don't know who I hate more, this idiot or the moronic cops who did this with NO evidence except a fake call!!

• April 23, 2008

  11:12 p.m.

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  Milehighguy writes:

  The Rocky is generally reliable and reputable in their information, but erroneously stated "Mormon sect" own compounds in Arizona and Texas. Mormons are not polygamists or have any relation with the FLDS that are subject to this case. Many news sources have been accurately stating "FLDS are not part of the Mormon church" in their coverage, and the Rocky should also get it right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OqdOM...

  As for the Great State of Texas, you are to be commended for being willing to make the FLDS accountable for their actions.

• April 23, 2008

  11:15 p.m.

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  AbleGoodman writes:

  Hey, gang, this is America. The Bill of Rights are only meaningless window dressing. We don't need no stinkin' procedural due process. We have the opinions of double-standard imbeciles.
  75% of black babies are born to unwed mothers. 25% of high school girls have STDs. These are non-cult "government girls" from government schools and government welfare programs with government school teachers and government "dole-ite" parents. Also, there are exponentially more underage pregnancies in public schools than on the polygamists' ranch.
  Let's look at the way the wonderful "government girls" dress: dirty, overweight, purple-hair, nose prongs, belly-button rings, barbed-wire tattoos around the ankle, low-cut dresses, breasts hanging out, ad nauseum. Now let's compare that non-victim "normality" with the "travesty" of the victim "cult" girls: clean, slender, modest dress, quiet and polite behavior, no tattoos, no purple hair, no nose prongs, belly-button rings, no breasts hanging out all over the place, etc, etc.
  The ACLU has said they believe the parents' rights were violated. Darn tootin' fig newton!
  But, of course, to hear all the wannabe-clever government and media propaganda public-relations talking heads tell it, this EXTREME travesty of justice, this GROSSLY child-abusing government excess, this treason to the Bill of Rights is "not about religion" (in a pig's eye it's not), it about "protecting children from abuse.
  Where did the idiotic notion ever come from that a bunch of misandristic feminazis from the "woman = victim, man = perpetrator" school of philosophy, most of whom haven't achieved their own emotional healing yet, care more about children than their parents?
  May God protect the innocent. And may God's curse be upon all government and media liars who cloak their tyrannical manipulations in "for the sake of the children" language.
  Full disclosure: I disagree with polygamy, the Earth is increasing overcrowded. I'm not Mormon. And I don't have children of my own. I just happen to like Liberty and Justice and the Bill of Rights. And being of the male persuasion, I have an allergic reaction to misandristic feminazis. Especially those who try to abuse children by destroying their families in a sheer absence of all federal and state procedural due process.

• April 24, 2008

  12:23 a.m.

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  Federalist227 writes:

  Surprised the jack-booted Janet Reno was not leading the raid... shooting, burning, killing the children ... AGAIN. Let's see the ACLU stand up against this despicable violation of these peoples rights ... based upon an anonymous call from an Obama super delegate. I have listened to talking heads snipe at the women/mothers of these children all week. Yet I never hear these same people speak in such derogatory terms about the headcase, vile of blood wearing Angelina Jolie or any of the other Hollywood tramps who make very questionable, usually unmarried, bedhopping mothers. When did the people of this country become such amoral, knuckleheaded sheep incapable of a single thought without needing it to be fed to them by liberal, propaganda spreading , media or bureaucrats. I expect government to try to usurp power ... my greatest disappointment is in my pathetic fellow Americans... bunch of weak sisters who tolerate the taking of 400 children by know-it-all government workers without wild calls of outrage. Furious I am getting the government the rest of you weanieless fools deserve. When they take your kids...tough! BTW I am a Catholic who respects the Constitution, who loves liberty and who is quickly becoming a misanthrope.

• April 24, 2008

  1:07 a.m.

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  MichaelsonJ writes:

  Rozita Swinton happens to be a Barack Obama state delegate (Precinct No. 269 of El Paso County) for the May 17 Colorado state convention and was elected during the Colorado Democratic Party caucus on Super Tuesday.

  Here's the official El Paso County Democratic Party delegate website: http://www.peakdems.org/obama_state_d...

• April 24, 2008

  3:54 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  dnlforklift writes:

  You people complain about civil rights violations here, but you do nothing about it. You either blame the President, or you say that this woman is a big supporter of someone who wants to be Presidnt. The President didn't do this, the House and Senate made this possible. They were able to do this because you people spend all your time complaining about the current President, no matter who it is, and you rubber stamp the Congress! If you want to put a stop to our eroding rights, then forget about this Presidential beauty contest and worry about the Congress. They are the ones that allow this to go on. I laugh,(or cry,) everytime I hear people complaining about the President and then turn around and applaud their own Congress people. The President has no power the Congress doesn't allow him to have. The only thing the President can do is take us to war, and he can only do that for a short period of time without Congresses approval. So stop the nonsense, forget about this stupid race and think about who you are going to put into the Congress this time. Then maybe things like this won't happen.

• April 24, 2008

  5:49 a.m.

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  Cmorapersecution writes:

  So my neighbor who doesn't like my dog, cat or the way I dress can make a call impersonating my child and report abuse. Doesn't matter that my neighbor has an criminal record for doing this sort of thing for kicks.
  The authorities will then swoop in with guns and armored vehicles take all my kids away from me. Who cares if my children have never been away from me? Who cares if they run a bunch of DNA test on the kids without a parent's consent? Who cares as long as this happens to a group of old fashioned, religious zealots????

  I tell you what, this story is such a black eye on American History and those of you who don't care because the "ends justifies the means" you will care when it happens to you and your children!

• April 24, 2008

  6:20 a.m.

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  Hayden writes:

  WHAT reward is the caller getting for reporting such an enormous crime? Over $5 Million? WHY did it take so many calls to police to get the police to protect the children who were being abused?

  Or, is the real Sarah who made the calls - killed by the cult as an example - and ..... is this other woman (obviously black and not rich) being used to cover up what the cult criminals did to the SARAH named?

• April 24, 2008

  6:24 a.m.

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  Hayden writes:

  Rozita Swinton - what did she do - did she expose an incompetent police who didn't SAVE hundreds of children from abuse without her many calls - what grounds for arrest was there - is it her race or what ? Shouldn't people who save lived of others be rewarded?

• April 24, 2008

  6:42 a.m.

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  NormalMormon writes:

  I've lived in Utah for my share of life--college days. There's a lot of polygamists running around there. Most do not live in compounds but try to mix in to the general population with varying degrees of success.

  There are stories of intimidation of members of various polygamist groups, to include beatings, and kidnapping of children as bargaining chips against dissenters. I don't know how much of it is hype and how much is true.

  But I've never heard of any of them murdering somebody. Hayden is using his fertile imagination to smear a group he obviously does not know, not unlike the fake 'Sarah.'

  I don't give a fig about the fate of these people who are obviously thumbing their noses at the bigamy laws of Texas just as the Utah polygamists do at the laws of the State of Utah. If they're found guilty and go to jail, then so be it. Couldn't care less.

  But I DO care about the methods used to put them behind bars. People justify police-state tactics by pointing to the obvious lawbreaking that was going on here. In Texas polygamy is against the law, and here is this group, blatantly challenging the law by moving in and practicing their 'alternative lifestyle' in the open.

  But they're smart about it. They don't keep physical records of who is "married" to whom, so in the eyes of the law, it's just so much adultery going on. And as we all know, adultery is perfectly legal. The only case they have is if minor children are involved. Here you have something. The state of Texas allows minor children over 16 to marry with the consent of their parents--but not in a polygamous way. So if the marriage is straight up and legal, all the couple needs is the minor child's parent or guardian's signature to make it "okay."

  These folks are compounding one outrage (statutory rape) on another (plural marriage) and to top it off, I guarantee you any minor girls in these "marriages" have their parents' full consent.

  However, it would have been too much work for the bureaucrats to sort this out on a case-by-case basis, finding out who was illegally "married" to whom, and arresting the parties to each crime.

  So they went in and rounded up the whole bunch. I'm pretty sure that was at least as illegal as the statutory rape of a 17-year-old polygamous "wife."

  And that's the only problem I have with this situation. These lazy buttholes over at the sheriff's, or whatever law enforcement took the lead here, couldn't be bothered to do their actual homework and make arrests the old-fashioned way. Better to burn down the mission.

  Right now that doesn't look like such an outrage because it was done to such a group of weirdos.

  But when it happens to your group, maybe you won't be so happy about the destruction of constitutional due process.

• April 24, 2008

  7:26 a.m.

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  tinfish writes:

  I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me any evidence the police find using this warrent should not be allowed in court.

• April 24, 2008

  7:42 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  jese writes:

  Every person in the United States should be paying attention to this. This can happen to you. Maybe the atheists down the street dont like your new car,... and one day child protective services shows up and takes you little girl away. You didnt do anything, you say??? well the state says you did, your f@#$ing guilty. Maybe I upset the nerds two houses down when I was drunk jumping on my tampoline in MY backyard and making fun of them. All of a sudden, I am a level 3 sex offender. and I cant teach my son how to play baseball. My career is over and my friends all think I am a freak. WHY? The christians apparently wanted this place shut down. If you were christian, how would you feel if you child was taken from you and raised as a hardcore Mormon or Baptist? Poor kids were better off not having their genitals examined by a bunch adults in a clinic.

• April 24, 2008

  7:49 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Hayden writes:

  I'm no lawyer but - seems anyone who helps solve a crime - should be rewarded - not arrested.

  The compound - to me - was the location of HUGE criminal acts against children - I'm not sure some of the kids there were not kidnapped off the street in order to improve the blood line - so now - this arrest of someone calling in a huge crime against hundreds of kids - will promote SILENCE when crime is witnessed.

  That's my take.

• April 24, 2008

  8:31 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  swell writes:

  Thank you AbleGoodman (and others) for pointing out the absurdity of our "acceptable" society's moral integrity! Some government schools pass out birth control to 13 year old girls.The majority of parents now divorce (something you can now do on the internet) and remarry (serial polygamy) or don't bother to marry at all, just live together until they grow weary of one another, then on to the next; with no regard for the children involved. What percentage of parents drop their children off at day care every day,to be raised by total strangers? The mothers of the stolen children have pleaded for them, saying they will do anything that the courts ask of them to get their children back. I am not a polygamist or mormon, nor do I justify in any way forcing a girl to marry an older man. But face it, our society "forces" girls to be sexualized, in totally uncommitted situations, at a very young age. Hayden, what HUGE crimes against children are you alluding to? Does innocent until proven guilty mean anything to you? Do you know how many HUGE crimes against children happen in foster homes? I thank God you are not my neighbor.

• April 24, 2008

  9:35 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Outraged writes:

  How many men and women in the Texas law enforcement and legal system are divorced and remarried? That is polygamy--serial polygamy.

  How many men and women in the Texas law enforcement and legal system submit their children to government schools knowing they are sexually harassed by supporters of the homosexual agenda? That is child abuse.

  I do not agree with the teachings of the FLDS, but I abhor the unchecked Gestapo tactics of the state of Texas--using military force--to kidnap all the children of the FLDS at YFZ, based on religious beliefs.

  Who's next? The Jews for practicing circumcision? Christians, for keeping their children out of the government indoctrination centers known as public schools? Where will it end?

  To Hell with the Alamo. Remember YFZ!

• April 24, 2008

  10:10 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  FlyingSilverBack writes:

  Oook Oook, Booga booga

• April 24, 2008

  10:17 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  TWBiker writes:

  I think we have a serious Consitutional violation here. People's children were removed under false pretenses/false reporting. Regardless of my feelings about Mormons, polygamy, or religion in general, NO U.S. citizen should EVER be denied due process.

  Please remember evidence of abuse was found AFTER the children were seized and separated from their parents.

  Sounds like a Wenatchee in the making.

• April 24, 2008

  10:44 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  adamrussell writes:

  The judge says they have sufficient evidence to keep the children even without her phone call. He had better be telling the truth. If it is found that there is no evidence of mass abuse then he should be disbarred for abuse of his power.

• April 24, 2008

  10:48 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  OhBrother writes:

  ummm, are there children gone forever? I didn't remember hearing they would never be returned. If serious aligations are made, why shouldn't they investigate under the normal guidelines? If these people did nothing wrong then there children will be returned shortly and they can sue the government and get more funding for there relgion and...camp.

  Some people didn't want to have the government taping there phone lines and all that patriot act stuff...alot of people said "if you have nothing to hide..." remember that? probaly some of the same people on here claiming this is so wrong. You can't get everything you want, if that didn't bother you then nither should this. If this people did nothing wrong there children will be returned no worse for the ware and then the elders can tell them this is the reason you don't associate or travel into the outside world. And all those kids would probaly belive them as they were taken from home under adverse situations and more or less bullied by our government. this should just give them more ammo for there religion if they are not found guilty of any crime

• April 24, 2008

  10:51 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  adamrussell writes:

  People get married underage all the time. Its legal with parents consent.

• April 24, 2008

  11:06 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  jranger writes:

  I for one am very glad that the authorities did go in and bust up this compound. They had reason to believe that children were being abused. These women (who call themselves mothers) make me very angry. Why they would make their girls marry men old enough to be their grandfathers make me sick. So, these girls may have their parents' permission to get married, but what teenager wants to marry a 50+ year old man. I can tell you - NONE. That is why they have to ship off the teenage boys, so that these old, disgusting, pedophile men have no competition with the young, pretty girls. I could write more, but I am so ANGRY with these mothers and disgusting old men.

• April 24, 2008

  11:22 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  privmoney writes:

  I am already a victim of the government's gestapo tactics. A girl that used to play with my daughters went through some emotional hardhips. No one in my family had seen her in 10 years, and out of the blue she decides to accuse me and my wife of really weird sexual abuse. Because she was 17 at the time of her complaint, it went under child services and they swooped in. After intense questioning and lie detector test, they decided that the claims were groundless. At the end, the detective said that that is the way the laws work, anonymous tipsters can say you're burying bodies in your back yard and the police will destroy your life looking for them.

• April 24, 2008

  11:23 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Eyeball writes:

  Wow! I imagine the lawyers are lining up to represent the people in that compound against the State of Texas for violating a lot of peoples civil rights by removing them from their home. No one should have been removed unless they had proof of abuse. A single anonymous phone call from a 16 year old is not enough to raid a place with swat team and armor. Sure there may have been some cases of abuse, but you dont remove everyone in a neighborhood just because one of the people in the neighbor was abusing kids. And sure their lifestyle is a little weird, but for the ones who did not abuse anyone, they have a right to live anyway they want as long as the kids are taken care of and home schooled. I am a little sick and tired of government being heavy handed towards folks who live a little different. I now think the government will make up crap against the folks in the compound just to put a better light on themselves. At least they didn't burn them to death like they did at the Branch Divian or gun them down like at Ruby Ridge.

• April 24, 2008

  11:29 a.m.

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  privmoney writes:

  I think I should also point out that there is a sort of adverse possession in favor of the FLDS. The compound has been there in TX since 2003. If TX didn't allow underage marriage, why did they wait 5 years to raid the compound? Seems like another case of the government trying to destroy someone's life looking for what's not there. Remember the Doctor, Hatfield, that the FBI just 'knew' that he was responsible for sending Anthrax around? I don't think the terrorists have anything to worry about--given enough time, our government and society will destroy all the honest citizens.

• April 24, 2008

  11:37 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  KingDave writes:

  Mind you, I do not have a lot of tolerance for religious nuts, whether they are Christians or Mormons or Muslims or Moonies.

  But either the authorities did not bother to check where the call was made from (they can tell the cellphone tower that the caller was connected to). Or they knew the call was bogus, but wanted to raid, so went ahead anyhow.

  Incompetence or malfeasance. Hard to know which one to pick.

• April 24, 2008

  11:54 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  slr38 writes:

  Apparently, ONLY 7 OF THOSE 416 children are pregnant! That means the teen pregnancy rate at the FLDS compound is less than the national teen pregnancy rate. This is a worse case of government abuse than Ruby Ridge. What have the dumbasses in Texas done now.

• April 24, 2008

  11:55 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  jay writes:

  methinks the outcry of persecution for the methods used to stop these illegal acts wouldn't be near as loud from the religious right had the criminals in questions been coke dealers rather than fundamentalists.

• April 24, 2008

  12:06 p.m.

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  slr38 writes:

  Sadly, these FLDS kids are now 22 times more likely to be abused in foster homes than they were before. They're probably being sexually abused right now by the Baptists driving the buses that picked them up.

• April 24, 2008

  12:24 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  milo writes:

  Thoughts that have come mind as I have read about this story...

  1-Since it "takes a village" to raise our kids today, what is the problem here? Seems like the FLDs are doing just as "someone" has prescribed. It's just a village raising kids.

  2-Since Susy can have two mommies or two daddy's, what's the problem here? Some folks say that anyone can get together and call themselves a family as long as they love each other and are sincere. Then why the concern that these kids have multiple moms and dads? Divorce, adultery, unwed moms by choice all give the same effect on kids, right? Kids are resilient, right?

  3-How come so much effort is given to telling our own young children that they can't control themselves so they need to know all about safe sex? We tell them to get vaccinated for cancer risks at jr high ages and younger. Sex at such young ages is now, not ok? We have already ok'd it by what we tell our non-FLD kids. How do we explain this to them and call these young girls abused when married young? Obviously, forced into this is very, very wrong, but what if these young girls are actually in agreement because this is what they know? Is it the age of these women that is the problem?

  4-Already stated, but religious freedom comes to mind. Or does the government now tell us what religion is and how we are supposed to live it out. Let's revisit our history books. Our very beginning as a nation has given us this freedom. Nazi Germany comes to my mind as does many other government stories. Do we even understand religious freedom?

  5-Does Big Brother come to anyone's mind?

  6-What about "tolerance"? Only when it is our religion or even when it's our non-religion?

  7-I am not FLD but I am an American. I do believe in my nation's heritage. If there is abuse involved, there must be justice. But does the Salem witch hunt come to mind to anyone?

  8-How about being able to confront your accuser? Anonymous phone call that was not questioned?

  9-Guilty by media hype? North Carolina lacrosse players come to mind.

  10-So what's a hate crime? Is this one? Some folks in TX just hate the FLDs? Non-religious folks seem to hate religious folks, ever notice that? Doesn't it seem to go both ways?

  See what I mean? Lot's of questions that should be asked by all of us, personally, and for our country. Our future as a free nation depends on this. Travel around the world and America truly is a great land! We even have the freedom to leave this great land and live elsewhere if we choose. No one keeps us here. We are slowly giving away all our forefathers fought for. We are slowly yet surely giving "big government" the ability to control us and yet we think we are free. When will it be your turn to be the chosen target of this kind of freedom?

• April 24, 2008

  12:57 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  benny_lipschitz writes:

  Those people at the crisis center must be real dumb. Couldn't they tell from the voice that it was a black woman? Everyone knows there's no such thing as a black mormon.

• April 24, 2008

  1:07 p.m.

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  FlyingSilverBack writes:

  So you all act like this woman is some kind of heroine. Heroin junkie maybe, but not a heroine. When I first heard this story, I thought "somehow, someway, a negro is involved".

• April 24, 2008

  1:12 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  blaskinen writes:

  Is it possible this is a setup of this girl in Col.????? Would it suprise us with the past actions of this judge, CPS, and police in this raid?
  How convienant for CPS that a "serial" fake crisis caller is now being accused of making a fake crisis call.
  On top of everything else we now find out that the crisis call was from a different state altogether. Should they not have checked where the call was from before issuing the warrant (at least the area code)?
  As of right now, the only people guilty of ABUSE of children are the CPS, the judge, and the raiding police. These are the people who should be in jail. (This is not even mentioning the abuse of due process).

• April 24, 2008

  1:16 p.m.

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  WitchKing writes:

  If this was an Muslim sect, these same Christians would be trying to outlaw Islam. Instead the Christians are feeling persecuted for PROVEN child rape.

  Ah religion, is there anything worse for mankind?

• April 24, 2008

  1:27 p.m.

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  ClueMan writes:

  My crangratulations to the law enforcement community of the great State of Texas on pulling off a raid that would have made the Nazi's storming Anne Franks attic proud! It'd good to know the Gestapo tactics are still in use and making us all safe from 5 year olds with disabilities!

• April 24, 2008

  1:35 p.m.

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  WitchKing writes:

  Funny, I didn't see ANY of these same aggreived Christians complain when police kicked down the doors of a marijuana club in California beating down an old cancer stricken woman while doing so.

  Your words of woe ring hollow CHRISTIANS, you didn't care what the cops did at the 1968 Chicago Convention, You didn't care what the cops did at Kent State. It's only NOW when one of your own group feels police wrath you snivel.

  Too bad, so sad.

  Personally I don't care if someone with cancer or glaucoma burns a joint for relief, I DO CARE if children are being raped in the name of God.

• April 24, 2008

  1:40 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  tomintx writes:

  Jay - I don't care whether these people are FLDS, Muslim, Jew, Fundametalist Christians or Crack dealers. False evidence is false evidence, and this falls apart under the constitutional protections against unlawful search and seizure. In the US, the end DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS!
  IF I make a false call against you, that you are abusing kids, and they come into your home and find that you don't even have kids, but they do find your pot stash, it should be inadmissable in court because it was a false report.

• April 24, 2008

  1:44 p.m.

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  blaskinen writes:

  Be very very afraid. Who are next? Homeschoolers? I have heard people actually say they believe homeschooling is abuse because the children are not raised in a proper "social" environment.

  I have heard of parents who object to their kindergarten children being taught sex-ed and being ostracized by the teachers and staff. Is this considered "abuse" by these teachers?

  If there was so much "abuse" at this ranch, why doesn't CPS go after all the adulterous mothers in the state? Is this not the same as polygamy? What about the schools who PROMOTE sexual promiscuity?

  Fear the government that fears it's people!!

• April 24, 2008

  1:44 p.m.

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  WitchKing writes:

  Um, tomintx, you MIGHT want to go read the Supreme Court decision of YESTERDAY saying evidence gained even in bad searches is admissible in court.

  I don't disagree with your sentiment, but they did rule yesterday

• April 24, 2008

  1:44 p.m.

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  Outraged writes:

  to Hell with the Alamo...

  http://www.cafepress.com/rememberyfz

  Remember YFZ!

• April 24, 2008

  2:27 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  tomintx writes:

  "Um, tomintx, you MIGHT want to go read the Supreme Court decision of YESTERDAY saying evidence gained even in bad searches is admissible in court."

  Too bad. That doesn't make it right. How long before Tom Cruise is predicting crimes in the US? (Minority report)

• April 24, 2008

  2:40 p.m.

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  milo writes:

  WitchKing, no one has been proven to have done anything at this point. The courts are still in the process of collecting DNA samples, I believe. You are speaking guilty before proven. I am not saying there may be things proven that were wrong. But your own obvious prejudice against someone different than yourself is quite clear. You are also making very presumptuous comments about what you think Christians think or not think about different situations. Might that not happen to you. If it has, I am sorry, but don't repeat it towards others. That doesn't make it right either.

• April 24, 2008

  2:43 p.m.

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  FreedomFirst42 writes:

  Some of these comments could be the foundation of new Federalist Papers! I thought I was the only one who felt this way about the goverment abuse of authority!

  One of my takes is this, there would NOT be 500 lawyers in a small town in Texas right now if someone from the state of Texas did not just make a HUGE mistake of due process. These lawyers probably do not want to work for free. If they think that there is no case or no chance for the big $$, they would not all be down there falling all over themeselves for clients. This is going to cost Texas MILLIONS by the time the lawyers are through.

  At least in Waco they knew they had the "illegal" guns. Hmmm,

• April 24, 2008

  2:57 p.m.

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  FreedomFirst42 writes:

  Also, Milo, YOU ROCK!

  Thanks for taking the time to type that awesome rant!

  Hopefully the real truth with this huge mess will appear somehow or at the very least, wake some people up about their civil rights. I will continue to watch this whole story very closely and I think every other American should too.

• April 24, 2008

  3:07 p.m.

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  jay writes:

  i'm funny about criminals abusing kids...i just want them to stop...however it happens.

  i really don't have a lot of sympathy for folks who hurt children.

• April 24, 2008

  3:26 p.m.

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  TWBiker writes:

  My earlier comment on Wenatchee holds true.

  CPS takes children away based on false pretenses, announces AMAZING child sexual abuse scandal (while interviewing children AWAY from their parents), people are thrown in the clink, lives ruined, children sent to foster care, etc., ad nauseam...

  http://www.historylink.org/essays/out...

• April 24, 2008

  3:29 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Grog29 writes:

  Can someone tell me why the Texas Rangers that flew to Colorodo to speak with this woman and search her premises (they found evidence that connected her to the Texas call) REQUESTED THAT THE COLORADO JUDGE NOW "SEAL" THE CURRENT COLORADO CASE
  on this woman???? Does the evidence that was fond implicate her as the caller in Arizona and Texas??? The judge DID "SEAL" THE CASE after the Texas authorities requested that he do so! Since when do police from out of state get to tell a judge from another state what to do?

  What are the Texas authorities trying to HIDE? I'll tell you what it is...the evidence implicates this psycho woman and the RAID evidence will be THROWN OUT OF COURT in the Texas case now!
  The initial warrant and raid was based on FRAUDULENT PHONE CALLS! The Texas CPS is
  running wild and desperate. They will have some of their administrators going to jail. This is looking more and more like the Duke case.

  The Rocky Mountain News needs to do some FOIA requests and go to court if either state attempts to hide/suppress any more informantion!

• April 24, 2008

  3:51 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Angelina052001 writes:

  Are you people kidding me? Impregnating a child is a crime in this country. Even if the child has been raised from infancy to think that it is okay to get married and pregnant by an older man at 15 and consents, it is still stautory rape! Would you like your daughter raised in that type of enviroment? Unless you're a pediphile I think not. These women are taught from birth that they are to comply with rules that are against our legal system. We have freedom of religion, but you must follow the law of the land. As for the State of Texas, they followed protocol. If children are being abused (which they were) Standard procedure is to remove them from the harmful enviroment and then sort it out. Safe enviroment comes first. For those of you who see no abuse: Marrying and copulating with underage girls is abuse. Raising boys to marry and copulate with underage girls is abuse. Raising children to violate the just law of land is wrong. This is mental abuse and unfortunately is hard to prove, but it is still wrong and there are over 350 attorneys who are convinced enough of that to represent these children pro-bono. Finally, as for the woman who made the false call in the first place. She called and reported a crime. She committed fraud by pretending to be one of the children being abused, and should be repremanded for that. But it could also be argued that she took the steps neccissary to allow Texas officials to cut through the red tape and actually investigate a very real problem that could not have been legally investigated other wise. Oh and on a final note- a synonym for fundamentalist is extreamist. idiots.

• April 24, 2008

  3:59 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  MikeH writes:

  I have to say, there is an awful lot of talk about people "hurting" children. Just like some others here, I'm not saying these kids weren't being hurt, but so far there is little evidence and tons of accusations. I doubt anyone here wants to see kids hurt, but I do see a lot of people sounding a lot like the case is over, the evidence shown and the jury decided.

  Keep in mind that it could also be seen by some (not only those in this 'sect') as the government abusing these kids. Remember, just because at first it seems obvious to you, doesn't mean it is necessarily so! Imagine an Amish community raided and the kids thrown into "society" as we know it! Even if it was for their true welfare, it would be extremely traumatic, to say the very least!

  Finally, the only "evidence" initially used for this raid was a phone call likely from a false report. Because of this, the rest are suspected due to their membership in a particular group. I would like to direct everyone to the 1st Amendment, and the case of "NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware Co." One except from it reads:

  "...the First Amendment restricts the ability of the State to impose liability on an individual solely because of his association with another. Civil liability may not be imposed merely because an individual belonged to a group, some members of which committed acts of violence. For liability to be imposed by reason of association alone, it is necessary to establish that the group itself possessed unlawful goals and that the individual held a specific intent to further those illegal aims. Pp. 918-920."

  So the law enforcement personnel must prove that those they have taken children from have 1) intended to further illegal aims of the organization - meaning *actively and personally* participated in pushing their daughters into marrying a man already married (how do you prove this without a marriage certificate? Wouldn't it just be like a guy having several women he sleeps with regularly? I knew a guy like that, only he was a 21-yr old in the navy! Yikes! But nobody arrested him or took his kids... it was just his choice of lifestyle that was frowned upon)... oh, and that man would have to be shown to have abused her, right?

• April 24, 2008

  3:59 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  MikeH writes:

  Did we forget what the issues are here? These people were initially being accused of physical and sexual abuse! Now they are being accused more of mental abuse and brainwashing.. a much more nebulous notion. Could it be that Texas realized they didn't have much of a case, since there have been NO reports of physical injuries among those taken?

  Oh! And how come only children have been taken? Are you saying all of these wives who are so often beaten and abused don't need protection? How come most of them returned to the scene of their abuse??

  Look, rational thinking is really required here and accusations and insults don't help. Please, all most of us are asking is for people to think beyond the alleged crime and question the method. It doesn't matter if the people involved are Mormon or Mennonite, Christian or Muslim, White or Black or Hispanic or Asian or... anything else! This is about fellow Americans being treated in a way which raises concerns about law enforcement practices. It should not be a soap box to preach hate or personal feelings of persecution, but an event to make us say "where are we going with this, and is this truly legal?"

  After all, never think that freedom is the natural state of government. That's why Thomas Jefferson wrote "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance." We don't have to be hateful, but we do need to hold government accountable, even (or especially?) when the ones harmed are "unsavory" or "undesirable" by most of society.

• April 24, 2008

  4:04 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  slr38 writes:

  I hope Texas burns for this.

• April 24, 2008

  4:06 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  MikeH writes:

  Angelina, I really do appreciate your concern, and I agree *something* should have been done here to find the least traumatic and dramatic resolution possible. Perhaps there was no way. Perhaps this is what was needed, but last I checked, it is *not* illegal to be married at 16 in Texas with parental consent, and I don't think there is any question about that in these cases. Also, the photos I've seen of the men involved, at least 1/2 of them were relatively young... like in their 20s and 30s... not the 50s and 60s people keep saying. Again! Not saying that didn't occur, and I do NOT condone that sort of thing! I'm just saying that you would have a hard time convincing me that ALL 400+ children had been abused, and if they had not been, the parents have the legal right to change their ways about how to rear their children... perhaps differently with CPS oversight? You can't take kids away because you are expected to "abuse" them, can you?

• April 24, 2008

  4:28 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  blaskinen writes:

  Angelina052001 Most of the rants here are not about the accused abuse or rape. We are talking about the methodologies that were used by the Civil Government. It is obvious, and becoming much more clear that the judge, CPS, and the police completely disregarded due process in this matter. I whole heartedly agree that if an accusation of rape was made (as may be the case here) then the authorities had the power to go in and remove both the accused and child. But they did not have (or should not have) the authority to raid an entire village and remove every child from their parent as young as six months old under suspicion of one case of abuse.

  In fact, Texas law states that if a child is removed from their parents, the state has 14 days to charge the parents and if none are forthcoming, they MUST return the children to the parents. Here is another state law that was completely disregarded by this renegade judge and CPS.

  This gets to a much bigger issue, and that is the powers GIVEN to civil government by we the people. In this case, it is obvious that these state officials believe that parenting is a right that THEY give to us. And this is becoming much more prevelant in our country. If these officials believe they have the power to do this - that laws do not apply them - there is no reason for them to stop here and go after anyone they disagree with.

• April 24, 2008

  5:44 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  pligkid writes:

  Help the mothers get thier children back and see pictures and videos of the raid at http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

• April 24, 2008

  5:59 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  dude123 writes:

  Does anyone here watch Dateline NBC? It is illegal and criminal for anyone over the age of 18 to have sex with a minor under 18 or 17. This group did not keep marriage records, so none of these marriages to the 13 year old girls were legal, therefore the men who impregnated these 13 year olds are sexual predators and rapists. If consenting adults want to practice polygamy that is their decision, but anyone below 17 cannot legally consent to sex with a person over 18. For a group that value morals, statutory rape is one of the most immoral and unethical practices and is outlawed in all 50 states for a very good reason. These fathers should go to jail because what they did was wrong and they should admit to it.

• April 24, 2008

  6:40 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  MikeH writes:

  Dude, as I have said before, I doubt anyone here has issues with that. The trouble is, that isn't even what happened! Instead, all the children were taken from ... EVERYONE! Only those children under the age of 5 were permitted to stay with their moms. This is the issue. Again, most decent people do not object to such events being addressed by the law, but I have not heard anything about the alleged rapists... only that the children must be moved away... even from their moms, who may or may NOT have had any say or involvement in the matter. Is it really the mom's fault if she is told to get married at age 15 or 16? Doe they not have a right to their children because of this?

  By the way, I have not read of any 13 year olds being involved, have you? Please refer me to the site, since I have seen no media coverage of the actual children alleged to have been abused; only the custody conundrum.

• April 24, 2008

  7:03 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  dude123 writes:

  Warren Jessop and his cousin were jailed for being and accomplisse and committing rape on a 14 year old. It is well-documented in that trial that such under-age marriages occur within this sect. Now, the reason that the children are separated from the moms is that No one is actually claiming to the be the birth mother and birth father of these children. The fathers will not come forward because they do not want to prosecuted for rape. That is why each child and parent needs to take DNA tests because they won't follow abide by law procedures. We do have a rule of law that each American should make a good faith effort to follow, but allowing and advocating for statutory rape is abhorrent and should ALWAYS be prosecuted. YFZ mothers want their children back with no documentation or direct paternity claims, that just does not make any sense. No judge will release a child without knowing their birth mother and father, which is something that the YFZ will not address. Its not the fault of the Texas police for following procedure. The YFZ are playing with the publics' emotions because they know that their practice of statutory rape is disgusting to every American. The judge will never ever allow these kids back to the community with their rapist fathers, there are a lot of men in prison for statutory rape and the YFZ men will likely join them. It is the only way for the mothers to regain custody of the children.

• April 24, 2008

  7:19 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  blaskinen writes:

  Dude123,
  You miss some very very very important facts here.
  It was CPS who seperated ALL the children in the first place!
  Why not allow all the children to be with their mothers without the fathers? At the bare minimum allow the mothers to be with the children at the shelter.

  I can almost guarantee that statements made by these children, without the parents present, will be used as evidence agianst them.

  You say "The YFZ are playing with the publics' emotions", but all I see, for sure, are state officials eroding the rule of law (if not making it up as they go along).

  When civil government is not required to follow the rule of law, there is no law.

• April 24, 2008

  7:58 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  MikeH writes:

  Thank you, Dude. I appreciate the thoughtful feedback. However, that is the kind of action I would have expected... the two males in the issue. As for removing every child, that does not make sense. You do not have to remove all of them from their mothers while you wait to determine who's are who's. They have spent their whole lives living communally, and I doubt it will hurt anyone to allow them to all stay together while this mess is sorted out.

• April 24, 2008

  8:09 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  dude123 writes:

  But the Mothers are Not Claiming the children individually! The Birth mothers will not come forward with their ages and identification because when the judge realizes that the mother gave birth at 14 years of age, they will arrest the father, and permanently ban the children from living in that community. The court can only process one individual child at a time and not allow a group mob mentality to permeate and confuse the process. Also, where will they house the children if they were to remain as a group with their mothers? The judicial system removes all minors from the living situation until the parents are determined and the safety of their household is determined. The Children will never return to the YFZ ranch as long as the men remain fugitives from the law. If the YFZ wants to do the RIGHT THING, then the Men should go to the police, confess to any rapes, be arraigned, and only then will the Children be allowed to live with their birth mothers.

• April 24, 2008

  8:20 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  dude123 writes:

  In the real world, when a child is suspected of physical or sexual abuse, that child is removed from the house until a judge can determine the cause of that abuse or suspected abuse. A mother may not have committed that abuse, but if she allowed that abuse to continue by the father, then she is an enabler to criminal activity and subject to the supervision of DSS.

  Only the Birth Mothers can claim their own children in the rule of law. A judge cannot and should not allow unsupervised and unidentified female relatives who may have also enabled this criminal activity anywhere near the children. These women are NOT cooperating with the judge. That is why DNA testing is necessary. The court will not show leniency until both parents step up and claim their own child.

  I think that the fathers should be prosecuted for rape, to not charge them would and turn a blind eye would be wrong.

• April 24, 2008

  8:32 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  dude123 writes:

  This is a case of statutory rape against the fathers and the evidence is the birth of a child. The judge will not allow the children back with the women is because their mothers will not ask for charges against their husbands. There are 2 sides - the courts and the fathers. If the mothers want their children back, they will need to turn states witness against their husbands. Otherwise, the women will be viewed as being on the husbands side and supporting statutory rape practices that endanger the welfare of a child. If the mothers really want their children back, they will need to work with the courts and provide the facts because right now they are obstructing justice in a statutory rape case.

• April 24, 2008

  9:52 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  blaskinen writes:

  Dude123,
  I believe you are missing the whole entire point. The warrant was issued and the children removed under knowingly false pretenses.
  Is it so much to ask for OUR civil government to follow the law? Or does the law not apply to them?

• April 24, 2008

  10:34 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  blaskinen writes:

  How about some real facts.

  FACT: An investigation of the compound had been under way for four years. A confidential informant, a former member of the sect, was providing authorities with details of activities.
  FACT: A warrant was issued and a raid was prompted by an anonymous call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl who was being held against her will and claimed to have been raped and abused by a 50-year-old registered sex offender named Dale Barlow. (yes they knew who the accused was before they went in-but wait it gets better)
  FACT: The anonymous call was known to not be from inside the ranch and Dale Barlow is on probation in Arizona for a 2007 conviction for marrying and impregnating another 16-year-old girl.
  SUMMARY: A judge approves a warrant for a raid of a compound even though they know the call was not from inside the compound AND knowing that the person who the warrant was for was not inside the compound.
  FACT: Over four hundred children were removed from their homes at gunpoint and refused contact with their parents.
  FACT: Texas state law requires that a child removed from their parents must be returned to those parents within 14 days if no criminal charges are issued. No charges were specifically issued in 14 days in this case but not one child was returned to their parents. (In fact, all of them are in “temporary state custody” so they can be introduced to television)

  Shall I go on. The abuses by this one judge and CPS officials are just too much.

• April 24, 2008

  11:07 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  BlueEyedDevil writes:

  Not every piece of paper with the word "Warrant" at the top of it qualifies as a constitutionally VALID warrant by virtue of being written in accordance with the strictures clearly and unambiguously laid down in the Fourth Amendment.

  This is especially true if that piece of paper was produced by some official from a particular State that likes to think of itself as a sovereign nation that can proceed howsoever it wishes against people they want to target, without having to concern themselves with those parts of the Constitution that would interfere with their nefarious designs by extending certain protections to their intended victims.

  So what EXACTLY does the Fourth Amendment REQUIRE?

  "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING the place to be searched, AND THE PERSONS or things to be seized."
  
  And "Particularly" means PARTICULARLY (by name), NOT GENERALLY (by class).
  
  Show me the warrant they used that PARTICULARLY enumerated BY NAME all the persons to be seized, and I will gladly retract my accusation of unconstitutionality.

• April 24, 2008

  11:17 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  slr38 writes:

  The FLDS people have no friends -- even the Mormon church hates them. Nobody will stick up for them. They've never committed a crime in Texas, and run a cement plant to pay their property taxes. They think we're all degenerated devils who would ruin them if we could . . . and they may be right on both counts.

• April 25, 2008

  10:58 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  dude123 writes:

  Who are the birth mothers - No ONE knows and the women are not telling the judge. The reason the children are not returned to their birth mothers is that no one has come forward to claim their own child. They are hiding behind their lawyers because they know that statutory rape is illegal and the mothers are powerless from preventing their own 14 year old girls from being married. The mothers are an accomplis to statutory rape, unfortunately.

• April 25, 2008

  11:05 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  dude123 writes:

  Each mother will have a chance to get their own child back, but no mother has come forward with her name and age. The children are not returned yet because the court has not determined who the actual birth parents really are!!! These mothers think a child is an adult at the age of 13 for girls. No judge will ever allow a mother to marry her daughter at 13 if it is not consensual. If the children are returned to the mothers, the mothers will kidnap them back to YFZ and it will be another Waco.

• April 25, 2008

  11:41 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  blaskinen writes:

  dude123,
  You keep missing the MAIN point. It was the state that took the children under false pretenses in the first place.

  YOU say:
  "The reason the children are not returned to their birth mothers is that no one has come forward to claim their own child. They are hiding behind their lawyers because they know that statutory rape is illegal and the mothers are powerless from preventing their own 14 year old girls from being married."

  I do not think you know the facts and I believe you are making this up to justify the state's abuse of power (in particular this judge). Why would you do this???? Can you read the mother's minds???

  Have the mothers even been given a chance to claim their children?

  So I guess you believe that everyone is guilty until they are GIVEN a chance to prove themselves innocent. What a sad way to view your fellow man.