Pastor decries 'moral detachment'

But failure to deal with guns, mental illness also cited

By Lisa Ryckman, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Tuesday, December 11, 2007

A culture of death.

A loss of hope.

The risk of doing good in an imperfect world.

This weekend's killings at the Youth With A Mission center in Arvada and the New Life Church in Colorado Springs represent violent pieces of a bleaker picture, spiritual leaders said Monday.

"We're taking a journey away from moral responsibility," said Pastor Gino Geraci, of Calvary Chapel South Denver. "We live in a culture and society that want to share the blame rather than holding people accountable and responsible for their actions."

Authorities say Matthew Murray, 24, who was thrown out of the missionary training school five years ago, killed four people and wounded five others before he was shot to death by a security guard.

Losing sight of God can mean losing sight of the value of human life, said the Rev. Andreas Hock, professor of Sacred Scripture at St. John Vianney Theological Seminary. "Since our society tries ever more to remove God from the public eye, it is more difficult for individual persons to find him, and so we have acts of violence as a direct consequence."

Geraci was a first responder at the Columbine High School shootings in 1999 and a counselor for police and firefighters for 10 days after the World Trade Center attacks in 2001. He said there's a growing "moral detachment" that allows people to act without thinking of the consequences.

"There is a releasing of the bonds that make for what I would call moral attachment -- a belief in church, in right and wrong, in good and evil," Geraci said. "We live in a broader culture that questions whether religion has value."

The media has to take responsibility for the way it reports these stories, Geraci said, adding that the suicide note of last week's teenage killer at an Omaha mall talked about becoming famous for the murders he would commit. The teen used a semiautomatic rifle to kill eight holiday shoppers before turning the gun on himself.

"We live in a culture of death, a culture of notoriety," Geraci said. "Time magazine elected to put the Columbine killers on its cover in a prominent way. They didn't find a cure for cancer. They didn't get the Pulitzer Prize. They simply got the cover for killing people."

But for Pastor Reginald Holmes, of New Covenant Christian Church, the issue is less one of moral decay and more one of readily available guns and undetected mental illness. Both came into play in the nation's worst-ever school shooting, when a mentally ill student killed 32 people at Virginia Tech University.

"Who needs semiautomatic weapons to hunt anything other than human beings?" he said. "We can't trivialize something so serious by saying it's a spiritual problem. The concrete issue is addressing mental illness in America in a much more serious way. This is sickness. This is sickness."

Rabbi Richard Rheins, of Temple Sinai, said all religious communities sometimes pay a price for reaching out.

"When you open your arms, and open your doors, you are vulnerable," he said. "Every church and synagogue faces that. I don't know any that have not experienced some sort of incident. Churches and synagogues are always opening our doors to the most vulnerable and the most fragile, and yes, sometimes there are consequences. And yet - we still open our doors."

• December 11, 2007

  7:26 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  dwander501 writes:

  I remember reading that the killer's family is deeply religious or as a neighbor put it very,very religious. Today I read comments from some clergy saying this happened because society has fallen away from the values of the church and sighting moral detachment. Where is the disconnect? If ANYONE was morally grounded wouldn't it be a person from a family with deep spirituality? Could this have happened because the guy was just a nut case?

• December 11, 2007

  7:58 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Charles_B writes:

  Rev. Andreas Hock said:

  "Since our society tries ever more to remove God from the public eye, it is more difficult for individual persons to find him, and so we have acts of violence as a direct consequence."

  I'm wondering if he can back up that claim that the violence in this case was a direct consequence of removing "God from the public eye." I doubt it, since religion relies on faith in the unprovable. I guess that's why this cretin can so easily spew his nonsense and have it printed.

• December 11, 2007

  8:02 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Charles_B writes:

  "We're taking a journey away from moral responsibility," said Pastor Gino Geraci, of Calvary Chapel South Denver. "We live in a culture and society that want to share the blame rather than holding people accountable and responsible for their actions."

  Who has said they would "share the blame" for this young man's actions? Nobody.

  "There is a releasing of the bonds that make for what I would call moral attachment -- a belief in church, in right and wrong, in good and evil," Geraci said. "We live in a broader culture that questions whether religion has value.""

  Religious involvement is down and so is the murder rate in the USA. I guess those facts refute the Pastor's shallow little theory.

  RMN, just because someone says it, doesn't mean you have to print it...

• December 11, 2007

  8:50 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  CrestwoodTexan writes:

  "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."
  Matthew 5:11

  But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
  2 Timothy 3:1-5

• December 11, 2007

  9:07 a.m.

  blacksho89 writes:

  (This comment was removed by the site staff.)

• December 11, 2007

  10:29 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Charles_B writes:

  blacksho89:

  What do the murdered people have to do with Pastor Hock?

  In what way have I threatened anyone?

  At least my criticism of Pastor Hock were based on what he said. I suppose you believe that criticism of a religious figure is categorically a sign of mental-illness, hate, and threatening.

  If he didn't want criticism for his use of this tragedy to evangelize his beliefs, then he shouldn't have talked to the reporter.

• December 11, 2007

  10:33 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  Charles_B writes:

  CrestwoodTexan:

  Your memorization of religious mythology is quite impressive. Do you know how long people have been quoting scripture and implying that the "end times" are near?

  Just over 2,000 years.

  I hope you guys aren't going to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  What a nihilists.

• December 11, 2007

  12:02 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  rmnreader writes:

  "Since our society tries ever more to remove God from the public eye, it is more difficult for individual persons to find him, and so we have acts of violence as a direct consequence."

  Yet it's ok for you to remove this guy from the religious mission he wanted to be a part of?! He was obviously trying to find "him" or he would not have voluntarily involved himself in your program. Here lies my problem with most religions - blame others yet take no blame yourselves. If you had embraced & helped this guy instead of kicking him out because he was making some people uncomfortable this probably never would have happened. Shame on you all for not practicing what you preach.

• December 11, 2007

  12:03 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  CrestwoodTexan writes:

  First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' He promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
  2 Peter 3:3-4

  But do not forget this one thing dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  2 Peter 3:8-9

• December 11, 2007

  12:21 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  brolin_1911a1 writes:

  "But for Pastor Reginald Holmes, of New Covenant Christian Church, the issue is less one of moral decay and more one of readily available guns and undetected mental illness. Both came into play in the nation's worst-ever school shooting, when a mentally ill student killed 32 people at Virginia Tech University.

  "Who needs semiautomatic weapons to hunt anything other than human beings?" he said."

  People like Pastor Holmes who equate gun ownership to hunting are deliberately confusing the issue with a straw man, red herring argument. He and those like him are also deliberately ignoring the benefits of gun ownership. Did he miss the fact that an armed, civilian CCW permit holder volunteering as a security guard "saved potentially hundreds of lives" by shooting that crazed killer? Who needs semiautomatic weapons? Anyone who does not believe in simply cowering behind or under a desk and praying they won't be the next victim.

• December 11, 2007

  12:39 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  punchpixie writes:

  The shooter had been telling people for over a year that he was hearing voices. He had been kicked out of the YWAM group, which has been associated with cults and cultlike behaviour on many occasions. His "hate for christianity" had been expressed on Internet bulletin boards for many months, and he had sent explicity threats to the YWAM staff for months prior to the shootings.

  So, I see it as:
  1. A problem with the way cults program people's minds.
  2. A problem with the way an isolated person who is THE SON OF A NEUROLOGIST can live IN THE HOME OF A DOCTOR and have a deepending mental illness for YEARS without any treatment. The doctor's family is reported to be "deeply religious", but I don't know if they are also members of this cultish IBLP church group.
  3. A problem with the way "evangelical" religion obscures basic human values by twisting them into a blindly cultlike system that advocates abdication of all personal responsibility under the guise of "complete faith in God"....as if retaining a sense of personal judgement and personal responsibility are somehow "anti-religious".

  That's my take.

• December 11, 2007

  1:20 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  Hey CrestwoodTexan, keep on that hammer, I can tell by the insults you're knockin' chips out of 'em. You're cool pal, don't let up. I believe you'll wear 'em down like a river on a rock. Soon they'll be swear at ya', but you hang in there! Hey, throw up some admonishments from Leviticus, that'll bring out the baseball bats for sure. I am a christian, so I shouldn't joke, but somehow I like the way you work. If they knock you down, I'll pick you up, give you some smellin' salts, and throw ya' back on 'em. Bring it on boys, my moneys ridin' on CrestwoodTexan! If I'd had you as my cell partner at Raiford, I believe we could have saved the prison.

• December 11, 2007

  2:03 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  blacksho89 writes:

  charles_b:
  From your usage of the words cretin and nihilist, I don't thing you have an understanding of the terms.
  Pixie: How do you know that Matthew Murray did not have treatment? Are you psychic?

• December 11, 2007

  3:37 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  willbe writes:

  I'm going with Crestwood Texan, brolin_1911a1, Louie.
  Each person has a responsibility for his/her own actions. Coming to God is one of those. So is picking up a weapon and killing. We don't blame water for drowning victims, why are we so fast to blame firearms and God for everything else?

• December 11, 2007

  4:09 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  It is not firearms, it is people. I own no firearms, I am a felon and thus prohibited. I won't delve into my past, suffice to say it was my irresponsibility and my choice. I fully support the right to bear arms. I do not support more gun laws, we have more than enough. I have friends who have class 3 licences and collect fully automatic weapons. Everyday more rights are being sacrificed by the good people for the sake of the criminal. Your doing little to stop the criminal, your only hobbling the good people. Having worked for the underworld as a young man, the law had no consequence to stopping crime, it only prescibed the punishment. For the last 25 years of my life, I tried to pay my debt to society by caring about the good people, I owe you the best I can give. I walked in a very violent world, now my knee bows to God. Because of people like me, you are paying a price you never owed. Enough said.

• December 11, 2007

  4:54 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  CrestwoodTexan writes:

  LOUIE:

  But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
  Romans 6:17-18

• December 11, 2007

  5:30 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Usually_Quiet writes:

  "Losing sight of God can mean losing sight of the value of human life, said the Rev. Andreas Hock, professor of Sacred Scripture at St. John Vianney Theological Seminary."

  Is this why the guard and the other person shot are congratulating themselves? Specifically, one of the wounded said something along the lines of, "I told her (the guard) to shoot him dead"

  And the guard is saying G_D helped steady her hand?

  Value in human life when it involves whom?

• December 11, 2007

  5:46 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  GeneralDissaray writes:

  And i say unto you"if thy brother shoot you in thee ass,then turn and offer him thine other cheeck,or simply just push somebody elses ass in the way".

• December 11, 2007

  6:23 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Charles_B writes:

  "Hey CrestwoodTexan, keep on that hammer, I can tell by the insults you're knockin' chips out of 'em. You're cool pal, don't let up...etc"

  What a bunch of nodding credulous rubes patting themselves on the back for a collective delusion.

  And yes, I did use the word nihilist in place of fatalist. My apologies. I stand by my use of "cretin".

  So blackwood_89, no comment on the actual points I made?

• December 11, 2007

  7:08 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  "Credulous rubes", that's an honor coming from you, thanks! I think it working Crestwood ole pal, we got thier attention! He's back to hurling insults. Still here wearing away at the rock. Hey, you taught me something Crestwood, I owe you buddy! He's too easy though, let find a real tough guy and get his attention!

• December 11, 2007

  8:03 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  Queen_Gorgo writes:

  As I see it, this is Christian on Christian violence, so you can leave the rest of us out of it.

• December 12, 2007

  8:05 a.m.

  Suggest removal

  CrestwoodTexan writes:

  Correction:

  But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.
  Luke 6:27-29a

  Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on Him and receive eternal life.
  1 Timothy 1:15-16

• December 12, 2007

  1:51 p.m.

  Suggest removal

  LOUIE writes:

  I want to thank the contributors on these small side sites for all that you have contributed; it is neat to see other differing opinions. Most of all, unlike Rocky Talk Live it is civil. The bantering is quite tame. Rocky Talk Live is one of the most negative sites I ever read. I learned quite a bit from you guys, and I appreciate that so very much. Thank You!