ARCHIVED STORY: Interview with John and Patsy Ramsey, part 1

THE RAMSEYS SPEAK: JonBenet's parents voice their frustrations

By Lisa Ryckman, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)

Published March 19, 2000 at 1:25 p.m.
Updated July 9, 2008 at 1:25 p.m.

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To view the second part of this interview series, click on the link to the left.

In this house, there are only two doors, and the windows don't open. The owners want it that way.

Downstairs, renovation is creating rooms that flow into each other through wide archways, so it's easy to see from one to the next. Upstairs, there is no hallway. The bedrooms - there are three - are separated by a small landing.

``There are no hiding places in this house,'' Patsy Ramsey says.

It's because of what their daughter's killer did, the Ramseys say. He hid in their Boulder house while they were away having dinner with friends on Christmas Day 1996. He used their pen and paper to write a ransom note, with every intention of kidnapping 6-year-old JonBenet.

He used a stun gun on the child while she slept and took her to the basement, where he put a garotte around her neck and assaulted her. Then something went wrong, the Ramseys say. She must have regained consciousness and screamed - a scream heard by a neighbor - and was strangled. A powerful blow to her head ensured that she was dead.

This is their theory, one shared by retired Colorado Springs homicide detective Lou Smit, who quit the investigation, in part, he said, because authorities were ignoring evidence pointing away from the Ramseys.

The Boulder police have made it equally clear they believe one of the Ramseys murdered JonBenet. Some media commentators have pointed the finger at Patsy, although Linda Arndt, one of the first Boulder officers on the scene, accused John on national television. Colorado Gov. Bill Owens has implied that both parents are guilty and has attacked the couple's recent openness as a campaign to clear their name.

The Ramseys are unsure how many times in the last three years they have been asked whether they killed their daughter. They have never asked each other. They have never been asked by family or friends.

The question has come mainly from the media and the police. Their answer has always been an emphatic ``no.''

``We've not ever faulted anybody for looking at us,'' Patsy said. ``Our child, our home, we're the parents. But don't stop there. That's the trouble.''

``There's been no common sense applied to any of this,'' John said. ``People don't live full normal lives for 50 years, turn into a madman in the middle of the night, kill their child, and wake up the next morning like nothing happened. And they don't go on to live three years, under intense pressure, and not buckle.''

``Look at who's buckled,'' Patsy said.

It hasn't been the Ramseys. They seemed relaxed and cordial during a four-hour interview in the apartment they are renting while their home in suburban Atlanta is renovated.

Couple eager to break silence

John said they have been asked every conceivable question.

``There's no question we're uncomfortable answering,'' he said.

They are eager to break three years of silence. When the Boulder County grand jury ended its 13-month investigation into the case in October without indictments, the Ramseys immediately began pouring their story into a book, The Death of Innocence.

They hope the book helps catch their daughter's killer. They hope it corrects what they consider myths and misconceptions about them. They hope it helps restore their family name.

They know their book won't change the minds of people who have staked their personal or professional reputations on their belief in the Ramseys' guilt.

``I think that people that are objective will say, `Hmmmm, I didn't know that. That's kind of a whole different perspective.' But the cynics are never going to change,'' John said. ``We could have the killer arrested, convicted and executed, and there will still be people out there who say, `They (the Ramseys) got away with it.' ''

In the Ramseys' book, the ``umbrella of suspicion'' police have placed them under from the beginning has become the ``parasol of persecution.''

Police are too quick to assume that a dead child means a killer parent, the Ramseys say. When parents do kill, they say, there's history: previous abuse or violence, drug use, other problems.

``Of parents who kill their kids, how many of those were normal families who loved their children and went to church on Sunday and had no history of any problem at all?'' John said. ``How many of those killed their children, percentage-wise?''

``This is not just about the poor Ramseys and look what it's done to us. This has been done to a lot of people that we don't know about.''

Investigators have at least six strong leads with powerful circumstantial evidence, John said. ``If the police would investigate the leads they have half as thoroughly as they've investigated us . . .''

Boulder police dispute that notion.

The Ramseys say they have seen how the system works - and how it doesn't.

``The police are not interested in justice,'' John said. ``They are interested in making an arrest. Prosecutors are interested in getting a conviction. The interest in justice only comes secondary.

``If a person is innocent, how many people are looking out for their innocence? If you are guilty, you'd better have an attorney, and if you're innocent, you better have a darn good attorney.''

The Ramseys' attorneys - Bryan Morgan, Hal Haddon, Pat Burke and Pat Furman - spent the last year preparing the couple for an indictment.

``The lawyers would say, `We can't say definitively that you're not going to be,' '' John said.

The attorneys told the Ramseys to prepare for the worst - to make arrangements for Burke, to make financial arrangements, to get their affairs in order.

``The year before that, I had said I could not stand the indignity of being charged with murder,'' John said. ``It would be more than I could endure. So over the course of the year, basically, our attorneys' job was to get me ready to endure that. We were fully prepared, mentally.''

``I was up in that bedroom, with my suitcase, going, `What does one take when one goes to the brig?' '' Patsy said.

They were ready if they were indicted, and beyond. They had no question how a trial would end.

``The system hasn't worked so far. We can't expect it's going to work now,'' their attorneys told them. ``But we'll tell you this with 100 percent certainty: You will not be convicted. We will win at trial. That is not even in question.''

``Because they knew who we were,'' John said. ``They knew there wasn't a case, there couldn't be a case. We didn't do it.''

Nice officers, but `poorly led'

Theories about the Ramseys' guilt tend to cast one of them as the accomplice who is protecting the perpetrator.

``Anybody who's ever had a child, and thinks that, has to have rocks in their heads,'' Patsy said. ``I mean, I love my husband. But I adore, passionately, my children. And if he ever laid a hand on them, I'd knock his block off. People just don't use their common sense.''

``The police asked me that question,'' John said. ``I had to think about it, because I'd never even thought about it. The police said, `Just what if Patsy had done this? Would you turn her in? Would you turn on her?' Of course I would. I would have to.''

Their son, Burke, who was 9 at the time of the killing, has been cleared by authorities. But both Ramseys agree it would be more tempting to cover up for your child than for your spouse.

``The love of a child is unconditional,'' John said. ``So that presents a much bigger dilemma, if you love that child unconditionally, and yet they've done this horrible thing. But if you love that child, you've got to get help for that child. It's a tougher question to think through.''

The Ramseys have dealt with plenty of tough questions in the last three years. A friend called at 6:30 a.m. recently to say that her 15-year-old daughter was missing. What should we do? she asked.

It was the first time the Ramseys had been asked the question since JonBenet's death. They had advice born of experience.

Escalate, John told them. Call the chief of police, call the mayor's office, call the FBI. Escalate the problem right now. Don't expect - assume - that the police will do anything more than fill out a report.

``We assumed when we called the police that we were getting the best and brightest, and everything was going to be done,'' John said.

Boulder police were passionate about finding JonBenet's killer, the Ramseys agree.

``They were passionately wrong, thinking it was one of us,'' John said. ``What they lacked was the wisdom of a Lou Smit, somebody who's been through 300 homicides, saying, `Wait a minute, slow down.' That had to happen.''

``I have not met one Boulder police officer or detective individually that I did not like,'' John said. ``They are all pretty nice people.''

Especially Linda Arndt.

``At the time, she was doing the best she could, she was trying hard,'' John said. ``She got no backup, no help from the leadership in the Boulder Police Department.

``I never met the leadership. They refused to meet with us. Never met (former Detective Commander John) Eller, never met (former Chief Tom) Koby, never met (current Chief Mark) Beckner. But from the outside, I see a bunch of young, inexperienced but eager people who were very poorly led. They did a tragic job as a result.''

Bias began early, they say

The morning the Ramseys reported JonBenet missing, they say Arndt was introduced to them as the best the department had. And the couple wanted her to stay involved in the case.

``She promised me personally, `I am not going anywhere until I find out who killed your daughter,' '' Patsy recalled. ``And I thought she was telling me that sincerely. When I heard she was going to quit, I was brokenhearted because I felt like she was really trying.

``Then she comes out and says she knew from the get-go that John did it because she saw it in his eyes, or whatever. And so all of sudden, you are going, `This is the person who was supposed to be our hope of finding the killer?' She made up her mind that afternoon.''

``Now you know the bias we were dealing with,'' John said. ``Now you know why we got attorneys early on. That started on Dec. 26.''

The Ramseys dismiss the idea that they received kid-glove treatment from the police early on because they were wealthy and white. John had shepherded Access Graphics, his company at the time, to more than $1 billion in sales.

``I think in many respects we were persecuted because we were thought to be powerful and influential,'' John said. ``People who could have stood up and said, `Wait a minute. What you're doing is wrong,' couldn't. Because they'd be crucified. They were crucified.''

The Ramseys say Smit told them that the police should have demanded that they come down to the police station that afternoon instead of simply telling them to leave their house.

``They should have taken your clothes, they should have taken your shoes, they should have taken your statements - right then,'' they say Smit told them. ``By not doing that, that did as much to convict you in the public opinion as anything. It didn't give you a chance to defend yourself.''

The Ramseys said had they been asked, they would have complied.

``Because we didn't know where to go,'' John said. ``We were in a daze. All we were told was, `Leave the house. Get out of here.' ''

Boulder police Chief Mark Beckner said the Ramseys' claim that they fully complied is a ``smoke screen.''

The Ramseys say they still smart from the notion that they got special treatment.

``If we were treated any better than anybody else, then . . . '' John said.

``I'd hate to be treated any worse,'' Patsy said.

``No matter how many times you say `no' or `that's incorrect,' it's still, `Yeah, but what about . . . ?' '' John said. ``The one that seems to keep coming up is, `Yeah, but you didn't cooperate with police.' ''

Profile of killer put forward

In their book, the Ramseys include ``A Chronicle of Cooperation,'' a detailed list of their efforts to help authorities despite the fact that they were the prime suspects.

``We did everything they ever asked for,'' John said. ``But I don't think we'll ever get over that image.''

Boulder police say the Ramseys' declaration of cooperation is inaccurate.

The Ramseys said they were disappointed that the Boulder district attorney's office didn't persuade the police to investigate other leads. But they give District Attorney Alex Hunter credit for not caving in to outside forces.

``In the end, Hunter had the courage to withstand the horrendous lynch mob,'' John said. ``And I give him credit for that. It would have been very easy for him to yield to immense public pressure to indict us.

``To make his life easier, he probably should've done it. He probably would have been re-elected.'' Hunter announced earlier this month that he will not seek another term.

The Ramseys say they have investigators working on the case; some are being paid and others have volunteered. But they say they know that the killer will never be caught without the police.

``They hold the key,'' Patsy said. ``All the private investigators we could hire from here to kingdom come could come up with a wealth of information. And whom are we going to give it to?''

They are counting on the public to help find the killer they profile in their book.

``I spent a lot of time on `The Murderer' chapter, and when I did it, I felt I was probably opening myself up for lots of criticism, because I tried to be as specific as I could about who I thought the murderer was,'' John said.

The Ramseys say they believe he is male because of the strength of the blow to JonBenet's head. He is a pedophile with a preference for little girls. He is a sociopath experienced with autoerotic asphyxiation, the use of garottes to enhance sex.

The Ramseys say that he is probably between the ages of 25 and 35 and is either an ex-convict or hangs out with criminals. The number 118 and the letters SBTC, both contained in the ransom note, have some significance for him. He had access to a stun gun. He was in Boulder on Dec. 25, 1996.

And he is going to be caught.

``It is going to come from information the public provides, someone who knows this creature, somebody who is his mother or his brother or sister, his roommate or his girlfriend or his wife,'' John said. ``And if we can describe enough about who we think this person is to enough people, that one person will come forward. And that's how it's going to be solved.''

Security becomes paramount

In their book, the Ramseys mention several names that they gave police - in response, they say, to specific police questions, not because they suspected these particular people.

``That morning, we were asked, `Is anybody angry with you?' I gave them Jeff Merrick's name, because he was angry with me,'' John said. Merrick was a former business associate. ``I had absolutely no reason to think he was a suspect, that he could have done such a horrible thing.''

When the police asked, ``Has anybody been acting peculiar lately?' the Ramseys mentioned their housekeeper, Linda Pugh, who they say had been having financial difficulties and had asked them for money.

``Again, nice woman, no reason in the world to think that'' she could have done it, John said.

They say they want to believe they don't know anyone evil enough to have committed this crime. They want to believe that they have learned lessons that will protect their family.

``The what-ifs never stop,'' John said. ``What if we'd never moved to Boulder? That's the biggest one. But you just can't do that. Because our path crossed that of a monster, randomly. There are things I wish I'd done better. I wish I'd been more security-conscious. I wish we'd had a smaller house.''

Their Atlanta home is much smaller - and much safer. It sits on a lot flanked by a steep rock wall. They have scooped out the inside and started over, creating a space that will help them feel secure.

On the first floor of their Boulder house there were six doors to the outside and more than 30 windows. This one has inoperable windows and two doors - to comply with the building code.

``I only wanted one,'' Patsy said.

The Atlanta house will have state-of-the-art security. It will never be left unarmed, as the alarm was in the Ramsey's Boulder house that night.

``We always assumed that an alarm was to keep people out of our house when we were gone,'' John said. ``We never dreamed it was to keep someone out who was going to come in and murder our daughter.''

It's a one-in-a-million chance, they admit. But your home is your sanctuary. Keep it safe. Take that extra precaution.

``You can't protect against everything,'' John said. ``Life is a risk. But you've got to implore people, when it comes to their children, to know that people look at your children and get sexually excited. Know that. We were ignorant of that. Be aware.''

``Don't just assume that you're going to be lucky and not cross the path of a madman,'' John said.

Finding their daughter's killer will enable them to truly heal, the Ramseys say.

``We still have all this dangling out there that can't come to resolution - not to mention the fact that we've been accused of it,'' Patsy said. ``Our whole family has been unable to complete the grieving process because of the unanswered questions.''

They say the biggest question they have for JonBenet's killer is, `Why?' The question they have for themselves is, ``How should he be punished?''

``I have thought a lot about what I want to happen to this killer,'' John said. ``And what I want to have happen is, I want this person to suffer as much as my daughter suffered. If he values life more than anything, then put him to death. But in some cases, death can be a gift. And I am not going to give this person a gift.

``I want the person to suffer as much as my daughter suffered at his hand. And I won't know how to make that happen until I look him in the eye.''

CHRONICLE OF COOPERATION

An appendix to the Ramseys' book is titled A Chronicle of Cooperation, detailing occasions the couple say they cooperated with law enforcement authorities in the investigation.

Boulder police were frustrated during the investigation by what they said was the Ramseys' reluctance to help.

Here is a summary of the Ramseys' A Chronicle of Cooperation:

* Boulder police officers interviewed them throughout Dec. 26, 1996, the day JonBenet's body was found.

* Police questioned them both Dec. 27 and John again Dec. 28. Officers were with the Ramseys 24 hours a day from 6 a.m. Dec. 26 through 2 p.m. Dec. 29, when the Ramseys left for the funeral in Atlanta.

* Police questioned Burke Ramsey on Dec. 26. The conversation was tape-recorded without either parent present and without parental consent. A police psychologist interviewed Burke on Jan. 6. Burke was interviewed again, over three days, in May 1998.

* Handwriting samples were given by John (Dec. 26, 28, Jan. 5, 1997); Patsy (Dec. 28, Jan. 4, 1997, Feb. 28, April 12, May 20), and Burke (Dec. 28).

* After the Ramseys returned from JonBenet's funeral in Atlanta, their attorneys offered to make them available for a joint interview Jan. 18, 1997. ``The police declined this offer and stated in writing that such an interview would not `be helpful' because `the time for interviewing John and Patsy as witnesses who could provide critical information that would be helpful in the initial stages of our investigation has passed.' ''

* ``The police countered with an offer that the Ramseys come to the police station at 6 p.m. on a Friday night and subject themselves to an open-ended interrogation. That suggestion was rejected, in part because of the written statement above.''

* ``Patsy and John gave hair and blood samples, as well as fingerprints, immediately when the police requested them; so did all other members of the family. In February 1997 both Patsy and John voluntarily gave pubic hair samples.''

* ``Very early in the investigation, the Ramseys offered to let the police search both of their houses, John's office, their cars and his airplane hangar without a search warrant.''

* ``On April 11, 1997, John and Patsy Ramsey, with their attorneys, met with Peter Hofstrom of the DA's office and Tom Wickman of the Boulder Police Department. This meeting was held at Mr. Hofstrom's and Detective Wickman's request. An apology was given for the way the family had been treated. The Ramseys were asked to give additional interviews and continue their previous cooperation. John accepted their apology and agreed to move forward. No conditions were placed on the manner in which the interviews would be conducted.''

* ``On April 12, 1997, the Ramseys also agreed to let authorities search their house again without a warrant; agreed to destructive testing of walls located at their home; agreed to identify Patsy Ramsey's prior writings; and agreed to make themselves available for separate interviews on April 23. The Ramseys agreed to answer any questions put to them. On April 22, the Boulder police canceled the interviews.''

* ``The Ramseys agreed to be interrogated by the Boulder police and district attorney's office on April 30, 1997. These interviews lasted two hours (for John) and six hours (for Patsy).''

* ``The Ramseys also were interrogated by the district attorney's office for three full days each in June 1998. No additional interviews were requested.''

* ``The Ramseys signed more than 100 releases for information requested by the police, ranging from medical records to credit card records and even videotape rental records. The Ramseys provided all evidence and information requested by the police.''

* ``Burke Ramsey, John Andrew Ramsey and Melinda Ramsey Long all were subpoenaed and testified before the grand jury.''

* ``John and Patsy offered to testify before the grand jury, but they were never subpoenaed. The Ramseys asked to meet with the governor and his advisory council. The request went unanswered.''

ALLEGATIONS & RESPONSES

Following is a list of ``urban legends'' John and Patsy Ramsey say have developed in the case - and the couple's response to the allegations:

Allegation: There were no footprints in the snow surrounding their house after the crime, suggesting that an intruder was not responsible.

Response: ``There was no snow on the south side of the house, where we believe he (an intruder) went. The police photographs show that.''

Allegation: John left the house to get the mail from the mailbox and casually sorted through it while waiting for word from the kidnapper.

Response (John): ``Our mail was delivered through a slot in the front door. There is no outside mailbox. The mail fell to the floor when pushed through the slot by the postman. . . . I was desperately looking for another communication from the kidnapper. My question is, why didn't the police think to do that?''

Allegation: John piloted his own plane to Atlanta after the slaying.

Response (John): ``It wasn't my plane and I didn't fly it. My employer, Lockheed Martin, graciously provided a corporate jet and pilot to get us to Atlanta.''

Allegation: JonBenet must have been awake when the family came home from Fleet White's house Christmas night, because pineapple remains were found in her stomach.

Response (John): ``What we emphatically told the police when they asked us about the pineapple was, `Neither Patsy nor I gave JonBenet pineapple when we got home.' She was asleep. We put her to bed asleep. We did not give her pineappple. It would be very easy to say we did. But the fact is, we didn't.''

Allegation: Burke's voice is heard on Patsy's 911 call, apparently after she improperly hung up the phone, proving that the Ramseys lied when they said their son didn't get up that morning until they woke him.

Response (Patsy): ``An accurate account was later published in Newsweek. The magazine reported that some of the people who had heard the tape - the police - thought they heard Burke's voice, while others said no conversation was heard, even after the tape was enhanced in the lab. . . . I called 911. I hung up the phone. It was a wall phone. I picked up the phone and called Barbara and John Fernie. I hung up the phone. Picked it up, called the Whites. How could I have called the Fernies and the Whites if the phone was off the hook?''

Allegation: Handwriting experts determined that John definitely didn't write the ransom note but that Patsy probably did.

Response (John): ``On a scale of one to five (with one being a definite match and five being a virtual impossibility), the experts assessed the possibilities of my being the author at 5 and Patsy at 4.5, a very low probability.''

Allegation: A scream heard by a neighbor late that night must have been heard by the Ramseys.

Response: ``The old part of our Boulder house had operated off steam heat from a boiler in the basement. From this boiler room, which was immediately adjacent to the doorway into the concrete-walled room where I found JonBenet's body, a 10- to 12-inch open ventilation pipe ran through the wall and out the front of the house, aimed roughly in the direction of the neighbor's home. It was very possible to hear a scream from across the street but not three floors up in our bedroom because of the megaphone effect this pipe had on sounds coming from that corner of the basement.''

Allegation: There was no way into the house except forced entry.

Response: ``The basement window was found open on the morning of Dec. 26, and the butler pantry door, which led to the outside, was found unlocked and open. Most likely the killer entered or left by one of these routes.''

Allegation: The Ramseys put Dec. 25 on JonBenet's headstone because they knew exactly when she died.

Response (John): ``Of course, we don't know exactly when JonBenet died. . . . Her small body was cool and rigid when I found her (the morning of Dec. 26). I selected Dec. 25 because I didn't want the world to ever forget what it did to our daughter on the day of joy and peace, Christmas Day. I want people 50 years from now, a hundred years from now, to look at that marker and say, `The world went mad on that Christmas Day.' ''

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